Far-Fetched????

I have to agree with iandavis and essedarius on this and have said it before in other posts.
Having spent time in the U.S. military and seeing how our gotvt goes about it's business, I have a really hard time believing 911 is any more than ineptness on our govts. part and a coverup of that.

We got caught with our pants down, there is a saying in the Navy, "Complaceny Kills" and thats what happened we got complacement.

We believed the myth, that our military and intelligence gathering was soooo second to none, thats there was NO threat...

Like William of Okham said "All things being equal, the simplest solution tends to be the best one."

We were asleep at the wheel and paid for it!!!

So, yes, two planes slamming into the towers brought them down, and the damage to everything in the area was a direct result of the damage to those 2 buildings.

[edit on 30-4-2007 by deadbang]

Originally posted by Essedarius
I have to apologize, I guess I don't have the intelligence to make the obvious connection to your link there and the term "indisputable."

Here is something that is indisputible:

An insurance company will thoroughly investigate, meticulously research, mercilessly persue, and joyfully JAIL you if you set fire to your home and try to collect the $400,000 insurance.

If there is INDISPUTABLE evidence of a controlled destruction of those towers, then there is a ZERO PERCENT CHANCE that the insurance companies would not be bending people over to get their BILLIONS back.

Here is something else that is indisputable. For insurance companies, the bottom line is the dollar. If the billions that were claimed were siphoned back into the insurance company through other means, I can assure you that insurance company would have no interest whatsoever in what occurred on that day.

Money makes the world go round. No reason to assume it would do any different in this case. If this was an inside job, it was an extremely expensive one and clearly was not about making a buck. Everyone, even insurance companies, will shut up if you pay them enough.

EDIT: I feel I really need to go over the OPs points one by one.

• Tricked a team of air traffic controllers, as well as, all the passengers on 3 different commercial airliners into believing that a hijacking was being carried out by arab terrorists, while in reality it was the government doing the hijacking as all 3 planes and passengers secretly disappeared with no trace or clue...…..while at the same time……

Well, the team of air traffic controllers were already 'tricked' by the drill that was being run. That is, they were to believe that there were hijacked planes in the air across the US when (according to the drill) this was not the case. By the way, since when does alleging government complicity mean that Arabs could not have been used to carry out the hijjackings themselves?

• Two different planes with special pods were being flown by remote control into the twin towers, shortly before the buildings were brought down by explosives that were secretly planted by a government demolition team…..while at the same time……..

Pods - straw man
Remote control planes - straw man
I won't add CD to the list of straw man arguments, because I think most truthers believe in a CD. But I also think most truthers don't believe in pods or remote control planes.

• A cruise type missle launched by the military crashes into the military’s own headquarters, “the Pentagon”…….while at the same time……

Another straw man. While there are some that may claim a missile hit the Pentagon, and that that missile was launched by the military, belief in 911 complicity does not hang on this fact.

• The genius behind this elaborate plot, one George W Bush, is hanging out with 1st graders in a classroom…...while at the same time…..

I think the vast majority of truthers are aware the Dubya couldn't plan his way out of a paper bag and most believe that other persons behind the scenes are actually the ones responsible for the events of that day. To me, believing Dubya is behind anything that happens in the US, let alone an event of this magnitude, is akin to believing that the actors from Friends write all that great witty dialogue.

• The media and world are clueless as they are duped into thinking Bin Laden is behind it all!

This is a nothing point. Here's why: yes, the media and the world believe Bin Laden was behind these attacks. Why do they believe that? Because that's what the government said within hours of the attacks. But so what? Either Bin Laden committed the attacks, or he didn't. That's what this whole point rests on, so for the media to believe the official perspective put forward doesn't mean a thing. But even if it did - why is this so hard to believe? The media and the world have never been mislead by governments about anything before, right? I mean, they're all so independent and truth-seeking that any time any government corruption is found, it is instantly brought to light.....right?

[edit on 30-4-2007 by TheStev]

Originally posted by iandavis

Labtop>"Do you really believe a insurance company will take up the gloves with an entity capable of fooling the whole world for nearly six years already?"

You are mistaken if you think the world's been fooled by what went down on 911.

Just write 911 in google and see what you get.

I think 2 hijacker passports surviving the carnage at ground zero and the Pentagon (not to mention the bombers passports found on 7\7), I think that is a little more far fetched.

And through those passports, within minutes, they were able to get the names, pictures, and bios of 19 other skyjackers, when they had no idea it was gonna happen they tell you. Right, thats far fetched, the idea that they had no idea.

Its far fetched to think that 4 planes can be hijacked and flown to their destinations (absent one) without any NORAD response or control tower help.

Its far fetched to think that arabs in caves and basements financed and orchestrated all this.

Is it far fetched to believe that the government would do this, when theyve planned to do it, in writing, a year before, and when they planned on doing similar things in the past? Operation Northwoods and PNAC in case your wondering, go check it out.

Is it far fetched to believe that they would do it as an excuse for war, when they get power, funding, secrecy, they get to pry into your private life if they want, they get to tap your phones, track your money, put cameras everywhere to track your moves, when they are the only ones who benefit?

Is it far fetched to believe that when the government says "security" what they really mean is "control", and that the Nazis also had something called Homeland Security?

Is it far fetched to believe that Karl Rove and George Bush are related to admitted Nazis? Grandfather Roven, Nazi governor for an austrian province. George Bushs grandpapa, Prescott, admitted top Nazi agent in America, caught funding the Nazi war machine through the Union Banking Corporation in collaboration with Fritz Thiessen and IG farben?

Is if far fetched to believe that the same kind of propaganda used by the Nazis is being used by the Bush regime today? Is it far fetched to think that the Pentagon has admittedly spent over 1.8 billion dollars on fake news cast and war propaganda since 2003?? Look at the facts.

Its far fetched to believe, after all the accusations and corruption that has come out, and the sour and deadly fruits of our governments labour stare us right in the face, its far fetched to believe they have our best interest at heart.

I believe they want an NWO, and I believe they will fail, because I believe humanity is too good, and we are gonna rise above this. Is that far fetched?



[edit on 1-5-2007 by LightWorker13]

Originally posted by LightWorker13

I believe they want an NWO, and I believe they will fail, because I believe humanity is too good, and we are gonna rise above this. Is that far fetched?

There is already a N.W.O going on right now, controlling the ideology of the average population. But if you mean they haven't reached their final goal of their plan then yes, you are correct, they won't succeed.

[edit on 1-5-2007 by selfless]

Originally posted by Griff
Then, why is Silverstein still in litigation 6 years later. If it so obvious?

The Silverstein litigation is about insurance paperwork and semantics, not buildings and airplanes. To my knowledge, none of the hold up has been due to the insurance companies claiming fraud.

The current litigation actually has to do with an insurance company that sold part of itself in an attempt to get out of paying up.

Originally posted by TheStev
Everyone, even insurance companies, will shut up if you pay them enough.

Now the insurance companies are in on it too???

I just can't buy that. There's really no more powerful financial force in the world than the insurance sector.

The dollar figures you'd have to discuss to pay off an insurance company would completely offset any benefit of doing so.

Labtop>"That's 43 years of covering up the murder of a president by a vice-president".

First off like so many conspiracy people, your thirst for conspiracy has blinded you to fact and reason. It seems more important to you guys to have this feeling of superiority over the average Joe by believing you know about all these special plots that the majority is clueless about. I have a friend who’s a free mason freak. You can see him really get off thinking that he’s the only one that has it all figured out as to who really runs the world. I’m quite sure if 80% of the world started researching and agreeing with all your nutty conspiracies, you’d freak out because you wouldn’t be special anymore. Like an underground punk band who suddenly gets hit record that also results in the alienation of their hardcore fans who feel they sold out.

Anyway, besides Hunt's status as a shady dude, he never accused LBJ of masterminding the JFK assassination in the first place. He only implied that in his opinion, LBJ had the means and motive, thus he could be looked at as a prime suspect. Big difference in what you fabrication contends. Read below:

Quote from Hunt> "Having Kennedy liquidated, thus elevating himself to the presidency without having to work for it himself, could have been a very tempting and logical move on Johnson's part”.

“"LBJ had the money and the connections to manipulate the scenario in Dallas and is on record as having convinced JFK to make the appearance in the first place”.

At best Hunt is merely speculating and you know what? He might be right! I have always been troubled by several issues regarding the assassination of JFK. I’m not ready to concede conspiracy, but I wouldn’t be surprised if there was one either. Unlike 911, there is certainly some believable motivation here. The Kennedy’s gave groups such as the mob and the Cubans all motivation in the world to bump off JFK. Though if Johnson was involved, it probably wasn't with any government entity like the CIA. So I will give the motivation for the JFK hit some traction. I'm sorry, but all of the motives I have heard implicating our government in 911 are absurd and easily torn apart.

Originally posted by iandavis
Unlike 911, there is certainly some believable motivation here.

This is THE MOST absurd quote I have ever seen on ATS (and that my friend is saying a lot)... Read the PNAC manifesto from 2000 "Rebuilding America's Defenses"...

If you don't think that there was motive for "some catalyzing event - like a New Pearl Harbor" you have a LOT of reading to do.

[edit on 1-5-2007 by Pootie]

I was seventeen at the time back in 9-11, I did believe everything CNN was putting on tv, absolutely everything, but then they showed the first video of Bin Laden in a cave, and then 2 months later another video, and I just started telling my friends that it seemed a little odd, for the government to be coming up with videos of Bin ladens just like that, it seemed like a plan to be coming up with videos of the number one suspect so quick after the incident, and until now they seem to be coming up with those new videos of Bin Laden talking on some landscape or cave, but still they can never catch the guy, isn't that obvious enough that this is just a big plan from the media and government, and all the entities above that, be either, the zionists, the insurance companies and bankers, the CIA, the secret circle who control the world, or Mumraa himself at the pyramid in Egypt. I don't know why people like the one who started this thread, don't see the pattern on an well thought out plan, and fall for it as if it was the absolute truth, when in reality it was just pretty well thought out to look legitimate when its purely a lie.

[edit on 1-5-2007 by bartholomeo]

Pootie>"you have a LOT of reading to do".

I read plenty. Unlike you, I'm able to tell the differnce between the truth and garbage fantasy.

The line that seperates fiction and non-fiction is clear to me, but not to you.

The reason most sensibly minded people reject this conspiracy is because of the shear number of absurdities.

1) The Culprit – Some believe our own government was behind 911.

a. Why would our own government want to destroy the Pentagon?
b. Why would they bother flying special remote control planes with pods into the twin towers when they were going to blow up the buildings anyway?
c. What did they do with the 2 planes and hostages. Instead of crashing the 3rd plane in Pennsylvanian field, why didn’t they make that one magically disapear too?
d. Friends and family of the passengers claim to have had conversations via cell phone with their loved ones. They were told that arab looking terrorists were hijacking the plane. How did the government pull this one off? Are the family members in on the conspiracy and telling lies to cover it up? Did the government stage the hijacking in order to fool the passengers? Why bother? Why not just fly all of the planes to a secret place with out all the staging etc?
e. How was the Bin Laden video (the one where he took responsibility for 911) faked? The CIA hired a bunch of Arab actors to do it?
f. Are all the eyewitnesses, politicians, journalists who claim they saw commercial planes fly into all 3 locations lying to us?
g. Are the air-traffic controllers who claim they spoke to arab sounding hijackers lying too? They also tracked these planes flying to their destinies. Are they part of the conspiracy as well?
H. All the media seeing, reporting and confirming the passenger planes are liars too?

2) Motive: Justification to go war in Iraq over oil?

a. Why such an elaborate and complicated plan? Couldn’t the government who supposedly devised such a elaborate conspiracy, think of an easier way to gain war support?
b. Why not blame 911 directly on Sadaam Hussein? Why Al Queda? Support for the war would’ve have been far stronger if the government directly blamed Iraq for 911. Surely the CIA could’ve concocted additional false evidence to support this idea.

I could go on and on. Listen, it’s mostly because of too many things not adding up that blows this whole conspiracy apart.

Originally posted by iandavis
First, there is no entity that has fooled the world for six years and certainly not our government. Our governent can't cover up anything, not even a presidential BJ. Watergate, Iran-Contra, Monica-gate, Pat Tillman's death, etc, the list is endless. Government cover-ups are almost always exposed, especially the complicated plans. And a GW lead government involved in a conspiracy? That guy can hardly form a sentence and people think he's behind some conspiracy to justify a war against Iraq? Ludicrious!

And yes, the insurance industry is capable of crushing most entities. Without the insurance industry the world economy collapses and all financial transactions cease.

This line of reasoning annoys the heck out of me. You got a few points, Ian but do you realize how much power rests with this government? You think the elites and Powers That Be in general are going to let ANY personal idiocy of Bush's threaten their investments? There are multiple levels of power and planning. They are smart. They can keep secrets when they need to. There were not thousands of people willingly and knowingly involved becuase tongues do wag sometimes, but carefully chosen consprators can keep mum to the end or past that. You seem to think these guys are as dumb as children. I wish it were so, we could routed them by now.

Originally posted by deadbang
We got caught with our pants down, there is a saying in the Navy, "Complaceny Kills" and thats what happened we got complacement.

The circular idiocy of some of my fellow CT nutters aside;

The defenders got extremely complacent in all the wrong spots at just the wrong time and their political masters and their economic friends in MIC benefitted greatly.

That's suspicious.

As for what's "undeniable" (message to both sides) is that which cannot be denied. If two people disagree on whether domething is undeniable, by definition the one arguing it is deniable wins, since it is being denied by him anyway. This word is useless. Igonorance is deniable, all our theories are deniable, even the plausible ones...
trying to make a good pun with plausible and deniability... ah hell. Have fun.

Dear Ian Davis:

You’ve got a rather famous name ya know. Ian — as in Ian Anderson or Ian Gillan, both fabulous musicians and performers! But I digress…

Let’s de-bunk your post, point by point. Sorry bout that but all is fair in love and war (I’m not sure I got that right, but it sounds good anyways).

a) Our own government WOULDN’T want to destroy the Pentagon. That’s why they blew a hole in the oldest, most dilapidated and deserted part of it. Helped speed up their remodeling process.

b) Exactly. That’s why they didn’t bother flying anything into anywhere on 9-11. There were no planes. Ooops — before you pitch a fit, please keep in mind that’s why there were no FBI or NTSB crash reports either. For the first time in United States aviation history I might add.

c) Again, there were no high-jacked planes. The passenger lists are pure fabrication. I’ve had this discussion with Cameron Fox already. Many/most of the passengers don’t show up on the Social Security Death Index as deceased or existent. And plenty of the ones that do, didn’t die on 9-11.

d) Friends and family didn’t claim nothing. The media reported that passengers babbled with call center operators asking them to forward their ‘final thoughts’. How touching.

e) You mean the fat Bin Laden video? Of course that’s an ‘actor’. Not a professional one of course. And I love the Al-Qaida ‘training videos’. Some of the later ones show guys’ forearms whiter than snow. Since when are Camel Jockeys so pale-skinned? Maybe they had people of Russian descent working among the casting crew. Who knows…

f) Of course many of them are lying, the ‘eyewitnesses’, politicians and journalists. That ought to be obvious by now. If there really are credible eyewitnesses who saw planes crashing then the 9-11 orchestrators pulled off some sort of ‘magic trick’, e. g. they used holograms. Holograms do exist, and have since the 1950’s. Large Commercial Passenger Planes disappearing into nothing above solid land has never before happened. Again, and again that’s why there are NO, none, nada, crash reports.

g) The air traffic controllers (those that are still alive) are under STRICT GAG ORDERS (court imposed). Why do you think you don’t see them on ‘the view’?

h) The media has spread nothing but lies. The thousands of 9-11 images prove that.

2.) Motive — Combination of reasons, peak-oil, dollar hegemony and Israel wanting us to remove an adversary

a) Here I agree with you. The ‘plan of 9-11’ was stupid. But unfortunately, it’s normally not the brightest who migrate to the top.

b) Again, you’re right. Wolfowitz blamed it on Iraq, the morning of 9-11. But he got ahead of himself. Still, the 9-11 planners were too lazy to even include an Iraqi ‘highjacker’ on their FBI list. But in the end, the plan worked, didn’t it? Ya can’t argue with success.

Greetings,
The Wizard In The Woods

CausticLogic>"do you realize how much power rests with this government?"

It doesn’t matter how much power or intelligence this government or this government’s secret intelligence agencies have, you have to be a loon to think they are capable of either fooling the following people regarding the truth, or convincing the following people to join a widespread conspiracy of this sort:

1) The air traffic controllers who claim they had radio contact with who they described as highjackers with middle eastern accents.

2) The air traffic controllers who claim they followed 2 planes via radar into Manhattan and lost radar contact with another over PA.

3) All of the politicians and media people including congressmen and women, reporters from CNN, Fox and several others, who not only claim they saw a passenger jet fly into the Pentagon, many of them saw commercial plane wreckage afterwards.

4) The people on the planes who called friends and family via cell phone to tell them they were being hijacked by arab terrorists. Several of them reported their location over Manhattan before they hit the buildings. They are lying or have been fooled?

5) The friends and family of the passengers who claim to have received the aforementioned cell phone calls support the terrorist hijacking claims.

6) All of the intelligence agents involved in identifying the hijackers.

7) The actors who must’ve made that video tape of Bin Laden and his buddies claiming credit for 911.

8) All of the cameramen who video taped what clearly appeared to be commercial airliners flying into the twin towers.

No entity is gonna fool this many people or get them to go along with this kind of plot.

In addition to all the aforementioned people that were either fooled or recruited into the conspiracy, we have……….. a team of intelligence people implementing the flight of remote controlled “pod planes” into the Twin Towers, shorty before the towers were blown up anyway by an undetected secret demolition team that snuck in to the WTC and planted explosives beforehand? We are also to believe that during all of this….. the real planes with all of the innocent passengers are being hijacked by our own government? And nobody involved in all of this is talking? Are you out of your mind?!?! This delusional fantasy would make '___' jealous. Tom Cruise and the producers of Mission Impossible would think this plot was far-fetched to say the least! Between the demo team, remote controlled planes and disappearing passengers, etc (which must’ve involved hundreds of people throughout the planning and implementation stages), someone’s gonna talk!

Wizard you need help!

So you believe in this highly elaborate, wide-spread, almost sci-fi type cover-up that involved thousands of people.....an impossible plot that if it ever had a chance in hell of working, it could only have been carried out by brilliant people....and......you believe these brilliant planners and implementers are so stupid that they would invest in motives that are stupid and make no sense? All of this effort made, believing we'd attack an Israeli enemy or invade Iraq in attempt to control world oil? Crazy man crazy!!

Originally posted by Essedarius
An insurance company will thoroughly investigate, meticulously research, mercilessly persue, and joyfully JAIL you if you set fire to your home and try to collect the $400,000 insurance.

Next time you set fire to your home, tell some federal investigators to come to the burnt heeps where it once stood and keep anyone who looks as if they'd like to examine evidence away from the scene.

I think it'd be great if you could get a FOI request from the insurance company that paid out to Silverstein of the thorough investigation they performed at ground zero, because as far as I know the only thing the government is releasing is a story.

Maybe you could put this to rest once and for all. Good luck!

I don't believe alot of some of the conspiracies. But, I DO believe terrorist hi-jacked a couple planes and crashed them into the WTCs. But, I think the government and several countries planted the terrorist into the plan. For God's sake, Pakistan funneled $100k to one of them weekd before. I don't think the terrorist ever knew anything – they were simply following orders from their cell leader in the name of Jihad. I don't believe what hit the Pentagon was a 767. I don't believe that 2 planes brought down the WTCs on jet fuel alone (I don't believe it was a mini-nuke). And there's something wrong with ANYONE who believes that WTC 7 was brought down by fire.

Look into the city and state investigations of the OK City Federal Building bombing. They're were many officials that believed the government was behind that attack. They've been doing these things for years. I don't expect you to want to believe it. I know it's frightening. But, at least you've gotten as far as hearing the other side of it.

[edit on 1-5-2007 by tyranny22]

Originally posted by Essedarius
Now the insurance companies are in on it too???

I just can't buy that. There's really no more powerful financial force in the world than the insurance sector.

The dollar figures you'd have to discuss to pay off an insurance company would completely offset any benefit of doing so.

In on it? Hardly. I'm just saying there could be a clear reason that the insurance companies wouldn't be investigating this event. There's a big difference between being paid off, and being in on it. I would also posit that the military-industrial complex is a more powerful financial force in the world.

What if the benefit wasn't financial? How can you put a dollar figure on convincing the American people that they needed to support more wars abroad? I don't know the exact figures, but I'm pretty sure you'll find that more money has been spent on the wars since 911 than was handed out in insurance benefits as a result of that day. You can prove me wrong on this if possible, but comparing those two figures seems to indicate that even financially there is no offset of the benefit. And the benefit is far beyond financial.

First, there is no entity that has fooled the world for six years and certainly not our government. Our governent can't cover up anything, not even a presidential BJ. Watergate, Iran-Contra, Monica-gate, Pat Tillman's death, etc, the list is endless.

Your reasoning is full of holes here. How can you state that just because some things that were covered up were uncovered - everything would be? It just doesn't follow. How can you prove that the government is not currently hiding things? How can you prove that the cover-ups uncovered are the only ones that have ever existed? Just as I can't prove that the government is covering things up, you can't prove that they are not. Such is the nature of conspiracy theories.

[edit on 1-5-2007 by TheStev]

Originally posted by Essedarius
First, there is no entity that has fooled the world for six years and certainly not our government. Our governent can't cover up anything, not even a presidential BJ. Watergate, Iran-Contra, Monica-gate, Pat Tillman's death, etc, the list is endless.

They seem to have covered up the Panamanian death squads pretty well. Until the Panamanian press uncovered the mass graves. Never heard of White Phosphorus until the BBC broadcast it's use in Iraq. Then it seemed that chemical weapons were just fine to use on civilians in combat. Seem to cover up the other couple bombs in the OK City Fed Building pretty well, even after it made local news. That is until the local and state agencies started questioning why the ATF got a page not to come into work that day. They tried to cover up the fact that the blast crater couldn't have several the support structure of that building. Look these items up. Just because you're just learning of these events doesn't mean you should deny them.

Just as these actors and conspiracy therorists to seem like idiots ... to me it would seem that denying these observations, true or false, is ignorant.

[edit on 1-5-2007 by tyranny22]