Forest on Mars !?!?

TextI would caution people to really, really think outside the box when looking for life on other bodies

Bigfatfurrytexan, try thinking inside the box first and then when that doesn't work, then try your method.

You haven't exhausted the conventional explanations before reaching for your box of alternate suggestions.

You urge ("caution") others to think outside the box when looking for life, but instead of skipping straight to "looking for life," try looking for the simplist answer first. It's called Okham's razor.

The fact these pictures come from the polar regions helps explain a great deal. The smudges and dunes all seem to have a rythmic orientaion but that can be explained by katabatic prevailing winds just like Antarctica on Earth experiences violent Katabatic winds from one direction.

The seasonal change of these photos is also explained by the polar location.
As the pole in question is exposed to the martian summer, katabatic winds give way to different thawing conditions.

Take the obvious explanation first and not the extreme one.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan


We have microbes here that metabolize methane, silica, hydrocarbons. Life is opportunistic and will make due with whatever materials it needs to thrive.

I would caution people to really, really think outside the box when looking for life on other bodies (and in general). People get buried in boxes...its isn't a good place to be.

.

This is what i said in my thread about Venus:

blue bird - "You could take E. coli and rapidly cool it to 10° K and leave it for 10 billion years and then put it back in glucose, and I suspect you would have 99 percent survival — Leslie Orgel" //// Leslie Orgel, [quoted in] Here Be Dragons, by David Koerner and Simon LeVay, Oxford University Press, 2000. p 32-33



Think about extermophiles on our Earth - which thrives in extreme conditions like in permafrost and Artic ice or boiling water or deep inside earth in rocks or capable of tolerating high levels of dissolved heavy metals or some resistant to ultraviolet radiation or nuclear radiation.

Astrobiology is very interested in studying such organisms.

Than we have Streptococcus mitis ( that live normally in our nose and throat) which survive 31 month in space.
Surveyor 3- case of extreme survivability of bacteria and bacterial spores:

External Source

When NASA scientists examined the camera they found that the polyurethane foam insulation covering its circuit boards contained 50 to 100 viable specimens of Streptococcus mitis, a harmless bacterium commonly found in the human nose, mouth, and throat. Since the camera had been returned under strict sterile conditions, it is evident that the microbes must have been on the probe since it departed the Earth and had survived 31 months in the absence of air or water while being subjected to huge monthly temperature variations and bombardment by hard ultraviolet radiation from the Sun. Conrad later commented: "I always thought the most significant thing that we ever found on the whole ... Moon was that little bacteria who came back and living and nobody ever said [expletive] about it."



There is also found bacteria on MIR Station.
source



Or 30 mil years old germ - 'sleeping':

External Source

here were much older spores waiting to be revived. On May 19, 1995, The New York Times carried a front-page story about them (4). Biologists Raul Cano and Monica Borucki had extracted bacterial spores from bees preserved in amber in Costa Rica. Amber is tree-sap that hardens and persists as a fossil. This amber had entrapped some bees and then hardened between 25 and 40 million years ago. Bacteria living in the bees' digestive tracts had recognized a problem and turned themselves into spores. When placed in a suitable culture, the spores came right back to life. As a control, the two biologists also attempted to culture from the same amber a number of samples that contained no bee parts. These cultures were negative, adding credibility to the experiment. This finding was originally reported in the journal Science (5) to general acceptance.


"... could life on this planet be descended from alien spores? ...Panspermia, the view that the seed of life is diffused throughout the universe, has been favored by a minority of thinkers since the Greek Anaxagoras in the 5th century BC. He, Arrhenius and Fred Hoyle may yet have the laugh on us doubters."

External Source

There are bacteria that metabolize iron, nitrogen, sulphur, and other inorganic materials. There are bacteria today that can live without sunlight. Archaebacteria that can withstand extreme heat have been found thriving in oil reservoirs a mile underground (9). Some species of cyanobacteria are highly resistant to ultraviolet radiation. The only thing absolutely essential for bacteria to live, grow, and multiply is liquid water. We are confident that the early Earth had plenty of water. Scientists believe that concentration of water in the earliest atmosphere for which they have data, over four billion years ago, was far higher than it is today.

Bacteria have the ability to colonize an unfriendly planet like the Hadean Earth. Not just had the ability but have the ability. These are not make believe stories. All of the bacteria we have considered, with all of their unusual abilities to survive extreme environments, are alive today!


a lot of links to panspermia subject

Prebiotic chemicals are detected in interstellar clouds - comets - meteorites.

from here



As Isaac Asimov said: could we imagine life evolving in some other liquid, other than water? With a different boiling points?

Like ammonia or methane, which is non-polar compound and desolves lipids but not sugar or alt like water //so proteins and nucleic acid would not be desolved in methane//. Is it possible for lipids to exist as big molecule, like protein, to support life?

And what about 'hot' planets - where hydrogen and helium (the most abandon compound in Universe) move to quickly and escape... Silica bases, sulfur based or even flourocarbon based life.

* this is really great essay from Asimov ( as everything imo ):
"Not as We Know it
The Chemistry of Life"

Originally posted by sy.gunson




The seasonal change of these photos is also explained by the polar location.
As the pole in question is exposed to the martian summer, katabatic winds give way to different thawing conditions.

Take the obvious explanation first and not the extreme one......try looking for the simplist answer first. It's called Okham's razor.

John Bridges from the Natural History Museum in London argued for an investigation of similar spots found in the northern polar region, pointing out that wind blown dust could have a role in their formation. Rock weathering, though, was dismissed as a cause "because the spots turn fFROM BLACK TO WHITE AGAIN - and YOU CAN'T REVERSE WEATHERING!

So Ocham razor (my favorite tool in battling 'god' issue) is not here to be put - coz assumption about organic nature in seasonal changes on south pole Mars region is very much good way to go...and many scientist are doing that. We'll see



[edit on 29-4-2007 by blue bird]

Not to take this off topic but check this out:

I call it "Vader's Suit". It appears to be part of something broken but currently still operating (note the red and green lights). Other images of it, depict it without the lights. If anyone knows what happened to this and what it is, that'd be good to know.



The above is an optimized version, so zooming it won't reveal much. If you want the full version, you can see it here:

thestargates.com...

I'm not sure what happened to this one, but it almost looks like a watercolor lol

Interesting images Undo!

*you get a feeling water was here just minutes ago lol:

blueberries

there are blueberries all over this planet. in some places, there's nothing but blueberries. just fields and fields of blueberries. it doesn't make sense. can someone refresh my memory, what the blueberries are and what the natural process is that leads to them, and why there would be such huge areas with nothing but these blueberries covering literally everything?

Water!?

* Gorgonum Chaos:



*Newton Crater -numerous narrow channels run from the top down to the crater floor:



* Water clouds over Noctis Labyrinthus // 'Scientists don't yet know, however, why these clouds formed, and why some stick to the canyons. One exciting possibility is that water sometimes condenses in shaded regions of the canyons, only to evaporate into clouds when exposed to the morning Sun' //




* Holden Crater - lake bed!? // 'The interesting fact is that the traces of lakes are quite widespread. This kind of sedimentation also relates to standing water, it implies that water flowing on Mars was not just sudden outburst of flowing water from under the ground.' //:



* water reservoar!?:




*

Europe's Mars orbiter has detected water molecules vapourizing from the Red Planet's south pole, scientists announced today, calling it the most direct evidence yet of water in the form of ice on the Martian surface.

Reull Vallis on Hellas basin:



source

*image from the Mars Global Surveyor, shows evidence of recent seepage of underground water on a crater rim:



*glacial feature /ESA/:



*

This image from the Mars Orbiter Camera clearly shows large contraction-crack polygons which may have developed as a result of the repeated seasonal or episodic melting, freezing and movement of water in an active layer overlying an ice-rich permafrost zone.

:



source

*Past liqed water on Endurance Crater:

see what i mean?

thestargates.com...

the entire blue area is nothing but freakn' blueberries!

Great image undo


Blueberries are all over Meridiana Planum!!!

NASA did the spectroscopic analysis - what was found: hematite concentrations.

Hematite concretions are one of several types of spherical rocks that are found on Earth but are not completely understood. In the center photo above, we see the Martian blueberries. Compare these with hematite concretions from Texas (bottom right photo), and with Moqui balls from Utah (hematite spheres with sandstone cores, bottom left photo.) Other spherical formations that are difficult to explain include geodes, thunder eggs, and concretions as large as ten feet in diameter.

One problem is explaining how a spherical rock forms in the first place. This problem is compounded by the fact that many of the spheres are layered or hollow or even contain a separate "nut" rattling around inside. Theories to explain the layered interiors include multiple episodes of mineralized water "leaking in" and "leaking out." This "leaky theory" is particularly hard to imagine in the case of the oil-filled geodes found in Illinois. Many are pressurized and squirt when the shell is cut.

The speculations about the formation of Moqui balls range from meteorite impacts to underground fires. One popular idea is that they began under an inland sea as unstable limonite. Under pressure, limonite forms a gel, which might be rolled into balls, trapping sand from the seafloor inside. Later, the limonite might be converted to stable hematite by heat and gases from volcanic venting.

* why are they spherical?

'If they form in place from a liquid or plastic state, gravity would squash them into a dome shape. If they form while moving through a resistive medium, friction would change their shape. The forces that formed them must have been spherically symmetric. '

source




**concretions of blu. 1 to 5 millimetres in diameter, rich in haematite...

EARTH blueberries in Utah:

The concretions may bear on the search for evidence of past life on Mars because bacteria on Earth can make concretions form more quickly. Chan and colleagues plan to analyze whether there is evidence of past microbial activity in Utah concretions.

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UTAH:

In Utah and likely on Mars, “you have rocks that had iron in them originally,” says Beitler. “Fluids travel through these rocks and leach out the iron. The water moves through cracks, holes, layers or pores until it reaches some place where the chemistry is different and causes the iron to precipitate out of the water as hematite.”

source


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* rover over blue. field lol:













[edit on 29-4-2007 by blue bird]

Undo, you should look at the link I posted with the pictures. Blueberries are a common phenomenon with electrical discharge (as well as other possible actions such as high pressure explosions et al).

The funny thing about blueberries is that the solar systems largest one isn't even on Mars. Look to the Saturnian moon Iapetus:

thunderbolts.info...

how do i insert a regular image, not an external link? The picture of Iapetus is pretty striking when discussing blueberries.

I woul urge you to look into the following pages relating to Mars for an interesting take on the phenomena we see on the Red Planet:

thunderbolts.info...

Sy, the reason Occams Razor, as you are trying to apply it, doesn't work is because you are trying to apply unknown events within unknown variables against a known model. You are comparing apples to horses, honestly. Occams Razor works like this for me, as the simplest explanation IS being used: those look like plants, they are geometrically comparable to my frame of reference, and (although they are on Mars) they must be plants.

When i said think outside the box, i refer to conceptualizing the various components that would allow for life. We have a wide variety of life on earth that is anaerobic to use as a model to start with.

Besides, the websites motto is "Deny Ignorance" not "Defy Logic". That whole post I made had some very good information, and you picked that one random snippet to comment on? I am proposing cosmic scale lightning bolts striking Mars and causing the Valles Marineris (as per Wallace Thornhills proposition)....there are other things that seem more relevant than my "think outside the box" comment. The Olympus Mons is a blister crater from an electrical discharge. You can see machined, scalloped edges and electrical machining on virtually every surface feature on the Red Planet. It was electricially decimated in its past.

[edit on 29-4-2007 by bigfatfurrytexan]

[edit on 29-4-2007 by bigfatfurrytexan]

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan

how do i insert a regular image, not an external link? The picture of Iapetus is pretty striking when discussing blueberries.

* like your posts // I also comment Ochkam razor in my post /before/ same way pretty much...


**
for image click on black/white computer icon with black/white painting palette





[edit on 29-4-2007 by blue bird]

OK...now i have the code for it. Thanks.

Now, while i have this subject at hand, i would also like to explain the concept of dust devils and their effects on the surface of Mars (and how blueberries can cover the planet).

Dust particles become electrified in Martian dust storms when they rub against each other as they are carried by the winds, transferring positive and negative electric charge in the same way you build up static electricity if you shuffle across a carpet. �From our field work, we know that strong electric fields are generated by dust storms on Earth,� said co-author William Farrell of NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Md. �Also, laboratory experiments and theoretical studies indicate that conditions in the Martian atmosphere should produce strong electric fields during dust storms there as well.�"

This is what I witness. I especially like the concept of "reversed cause and effect" in scientific analysis, as it seems to happen all too often.

Consider this: if these "dust devils" are actually more like the toriodal shaped plasma emissions that is supposed by Wallace Thornhill et al, it would explain the virtual wasteland of blueberries. Look at the scars left behind by these dust devils:




From this page: thunderbolts.info...

I, too, live in an iron rich area and see these phenomenon but on a smaller scale. Some here may be growing weary of me telling this information again....sorry, just seems relevant.

I am unsure what would cause mars to be so electrically charged relative to us, but it is intriguing to say the least. Possibly Mars has recently taken up a new position in the Sun's plasma field (solar wind)? I dunno...

Because i am very much contemplated on possibility of Electric Universe, here is lab experiment done by physicist with electric arcs in order to replicate Martian blueberries:

NASA confirmed that b. are hematite concentration - which is iron-reach mineral. Electric Universe theorists proposed - formation through electric discharge.

Electric discharge tends to produce spherical layering and a distinct equator and pole, because the electromagnetic force "squeezes" perpendicular to the current that creates it. These characteristics are also found in the "natural" spherules.

He obtained a quantity of hematite and blasted it with an electric arc. The results are seen in the right half of the image above. The embedded spheres created by the arc appear to replicate many of the features of the blueberries on Mars. No other laboratory process has achieved a similar result. It should encourage further experiments using higher energies.

source

My thinking is, what if those tracks arenn't wet soil? What if the soil has been somewhat fuxed by the electrically charged martian storms? There must be loads of static electricity, right? In all that iron rich soil?

So, the rover drives thorugh and breaks through the crusty, fused overlayer and exposes the more ancient, protected under layers. The static electricity and natural forces cause the soil to stick to the rovers wheels.

This also explains why dust devils can scar the surface so badly.

But don't you need , for this 'tornado' devils wind action - pretty strong hitting of the surface in order to get ground hotter than air above for formation of this whirling columns of dust?


Thise dd are huge - up to 10 km high and to 2 km across.

And yes - Earth dirt devils ARE electricly charged....lol

[edit on 29-4-2007 by blue bird]

No, the "updrafts" et al are a case of reversed cause and effect in our science. The updarafting and cyclonic wind is a result of the electromagnetic disturbance. The atmosphere on Mars is suppose to be thin...how do you get strong updrafts and cyclonic wind? Were there more atmosphere, these dust devils would likely look more like a very strong tornado.

The dust storms...there must be an atmospsphere to create wind motion, as it is the rush of particles from point A to point B. That is what creates wind. Sans atmospheric particles, the EM disturbances only make pale dust devils. And the dust storms are the same. How does this heavy, iron laden soil get lifted into the air? There is no air!!! So how does it happen? EM anti-gravity, that is how. Yes, it sounds odd...but imagine a highly charged atmosphere surrounding small iron particles. If you make them light enough, the weak Martian wind can them carry them.

The same happens here. The wind can be 35 mph and the sky is clear. But, there are times when it is only 20 mph and the whole sky turns red and rains mud drops. Our atmosphere is different, as is the electrical force at work. But the phenomenon is very, very similar. We have iron rich soil, and when static electricity is high, so is the chance for a dust storm.

Originally posted by undo
blueberries

there are blueberries all over this planet. in some places, there's nothing but blueberries. just fields and fields of blueberries. it doesn't make sense. can someone refresh my memory, what the blueberries are and what the natural process is that leads to them, and why there would be such huge areas with nothing but these blueberries covering literally everything?

TSK TSK TSK Sometimes I gotta wonder why I bother
Pegasus did the Blueberries some time ago and the Utah concreations as well.

The reason they landed opportunity in that spot was because the spectrographic analysis indicated hematite covering an area the size of Oklahoma. The oval is the target landing zone... smack dab in Blueberry Central!



BLUEBERRIES
landoflegends.us...

MORE BLUEBERRIES
landoflegends.us...

:shk:

To Mr Furry...

While it is true that elecrtic arcs can cause sphericles of iron, hematite can not be created this way. Hematite has a spherical crystal form and can be formed from water in the form of concreations. The UTAH zone looks identical to the Martian area, complete with the color of the host sedimentary rock. Don't forget that the "blueberries" are not blue, but gray and only appear blue in the enhanced color images. On Earth they rust, well hematite detiriorates to limonite and other iron oxides...

The term "blueberries" cme from a NASA scientist that commented that the area looked like "blueberries imbedded in a muffin... and the name stuck... so much for scientific procedure

To insert image use this button..
images.abovetopsecret.com...

[edit on 29-4-2007 by zorgon]

[edit on 29-4-2007 by zorgon]

Originally posted by blue bird
Water Resovoir!?

That would be this one... complete with pipes...





Well on the bright side I can catch up now

Blueberries or lichens!? Looking on Earth for answers /astrobilogy/:

all of the samples contained multiple species living within microns of each other. Conclusions from this and other work at the outcrop point to the fact that these “Blueberries” were probably not formed by microbial products, but once on surface, microbiology interacted with geochemistry.

*Cryoconite Holes: MIni ecosystems on glacial surfaces:




source
look familiar!?





[edit on 29-4-2007 by blue bird]