Questions about Masonry: an open and honest forum

Originally posted by Tek-Neek55
Then Masonry degrees, levels and ranks do exist. Even if it's through choice to progress or through invitation.

Except someone who goes through those degrees isn't "better" or doesn't wield any greater "Masonic power" than a 3rd degree Master Mason. An elected Grand Master of a Grand Lodge (even if he's not a member of any appendant bodies) could charge a Scottish Rite 33° Mason with Masonic offenses and revoke his membership and the local Scottish Rite bodies would have to abide by that decision because they have no power to do otherwise.

Whats up with RockPuck's claim of reaching "32" in a matter of hours?

More often than not now days the conferral of Scottish Rite degrees is done in a weekend. You pay your initiation fee (I think around $175) and sit in the audience as a number of plays are put on for you. At various points you get up and take the oath for that degree along with the actor portraying the candidate. Usually only 6 or 8 degrees will actually be enacted in a given class. (If I recall correctly, 4, 14, 18, 30 and 32 are the only required degrees to be enacted each time, and often others are scattered in. Most areas try to perform each degree at least once a year, but that doesn't always happen.) At the end of the weekend you're a 32° Mason whether you've actually witnessed or participated in every degree between 4 and 32 or not.

And, to use a common analogy here at ATS, which is greater: 32 inches or 3 feet? The Scottish Rite degrees certainly add additional ideas for contemplation, and there are some good teachings, but ultimately, the 3 degrees of the blue lodge are what make a man a Mason.

dupe post

[edit on 11/17/2009 by JoshNorton]

Originally posted by Tek-Neek55
Then Masonry degrees, levels and ranks do exist. Even if it's through choice to progress or through invitation.

Whats up with RockPuck's claim of reaching "32" in a matter of hours?

[edit on 17-11-2009 by Tek-Neek55]

No, as Masoniclight pointed out, the only "rank" is through the Officer positions, which are Directly Elected. (Masonry operates as a Direct Democracy) .. even then, not all positions even have authority. Worshipful Masters obviously conduct the lodge, and I would say the Secretary and Treasurer are some of the most important peoples.

Some times Masons choose specific paths, be it York or Scottish Rite. I chose Scottish Rite and have no ambitions to join the York Rite. I know of several people from my Home Lodge that were York Rite members who refused to be in the Scottish Rite. Both are equally important, but neither has any authority over the other (York Rite does not have numbered degrees) and no one has any authority over a Master Mason.

Regardless if you have taken all the York Rite, Scottish Rite, Shriner or what have you degrees or if you have only gone as far as the 3º, when it all comes down to definition you're all Freemasons. Nothing more, nothing less.

[edit on 11/17/2009 by Rockpuck]

reply to post by Rockpuck


Okay, well then "ranks" exist through officer positions. They still exist, right?

Like you said, no one has authority over a Master Mason... wouldn't a
Master Mason be considered a "rank" or level?

And as you speak of democracy, why even try to get elected for anything
if it's not going to result in you progressing through levels?

Like I said, Im not too keen on modern day masonry, but am definetely interested in learning more. It seems to me that the whole society has been fabricated and manipulated throughout time leaving the "true bloodline" in order of importance

As a freemason, can YOU be elected into officer positions?




[edit on 17-11-2009 by Tek-Neek55]

Originally posted by Tek-Neek55
reply to post by Rockpuck

 

Okay, well then "ranks" exist through officer positions. They still exist, right?

I suppose so, but as those ranks usually are only about a year, masons get cycled through the "chairs" very quickly so that everyone who wants to go through the ranks can. The closest thing to what I think YOU mean by rank is better thought of as Prestige. A Pas master has no official rank in a lodge per say but they have more clout then any of the elected officers, a Past master that has also say served in different officer rolls in the York, Scottish, Shriner appendent bodies also may increase their prestige by becoming known as an excellent ritualist. Someone who has been a grand Master of a state deffinately has alot of clout.....but ultimately in a lodge when decisions are made every 3rd degree mason present gets one vote, the closest thing you could say is masons who have taken tehtime to not only go through the chairs in the blue lodge and appendent bodies gain greater influence. Just as say an elder in a tribe gains influence.

Originally posted by Tek-Neek55Like you said, no one has authority over a Master Mason... wouldn't a
Master Mason be considered a "rank" or level?

Their just a fully raised mason. They have completed the work to be considered a full mason.

Originally posted by Tek-Neek55And as you speak of democracy, why even try to get elected for anything
if it's not going to result in you progressing through levels?

People go through the chairs as a way of both helping and supporting their lodge, and simply to practice the ritual work, it's all memorization you must remember, and you can not right it down, so the only way to learn it is practice, practice practice......so it is true that "elected" offices are for the purpose of gaining in knowledge but nothing that is secret as anyone who is a master mason can watch and participate....it actually is the younger masons who go through the chairs once you have gone through the elected positions you usually sit on the side and critique....or at least that has been my experience. Which is why it is often joked that the real clout or influnce in a lodge isn't even with it's master it's the sidelines where all the previous past masters sit and are sitting and watching, and likely correcting the officers as they go.

Originally posted by Tek-Neek55Like I said, Im not too keen on modern day masonry, but am definetely interested in learning more. It seems to me that the whole society has been fabricated and manipulated throughout time leaving the "true bloodline" in order of importance

I'm not picking at you when I say this, but I do not beleive you know enough to be either impressed or unimpressed yet. Rather I think like most people you'd feel a little bit of both. I don't know about a pure "bloodline" as it's not a bloodline type of thing...but I will admit even many masons feel much of masonry has drifted from it's moral and philosophical teachings, and more toward a "club" and "charity" group. There are many lodges trying to bring back more education, learning, and more strict ritual work......perhaps in time. The new mood in successful lodges now is deffinately about "getting back to basics" lodges that simply maufacture dues cards are the ones that do not grow very well.

Originally posted by Tek-Neek55
As a freemason, can YOU be elected into officer positions?

Yes and you usually are as soon as possible as it is the younger members that go through the officer positions so they can learn the work, the seasoned members usually only assume officer positions if there's not enough new members to fill the positions.

Being an officer in Masonry is not about rank, it's more about learning and practicing. It's work.......many mason choose not to do it all those would be the ones without much clout at all, but their vote counts the same as everyone elses. I knwo it's counter to what most people on teh outside think, but the "elected" positions at the lodge level are really not powerful, they just have all the responsibilities tehy get the weekly work "done"....now the grand lodge officers I suppose they have a bit more influence.....but even their it's considered more of a burden then a reward as positions go. It's a sacrifice to take those jobs, you won't get paid and you'll have alot of work, it's reward again could be said to be in it's lessons, and what you get back by giving to the organization you have enjoyed.

reply to post by Tek-Neek55


I was at the beginning of the Officer Line in my Home Lodge.. most members of the Lodge will at one time or another (if you're active) be an Officer. Kinda like, say, Athens in ancient times, when most men were expected to once in their life serve in the Senate.

It's not really "ranks" as you are imagining.. I don't know how to describe it to you.

The highest positions reside in the Grand Lodge, and those too are Elected by the Officers of the various Lodges. Directly, while all lodges sit in congregation.

Generally you have to be well known, an outstanding Mason to reach this level .. not rich or powerful. I believe the MWM of Ohio was an electrician. Hardly Elitist.

You know, there is an excellent way to find all this out first hand..

Starred, both of you.

Thank you for your insight, Masonic Light, RockPuck and Fork And Spoons!

You all have triggered me into learning more about freemasons. I guess
the source I had been retaining to about Masony was just not enough. I have a friend who's 3rd degree and he himself won't tell me much about his society. He insists he is at no "level" to reveal true masonic wisdom to me, as I feel he knows more than what he has described.

Thanks again for the knowledge. What books might you recommend to entail more infomation that I am seeking, Im really interested in learning more....

reply to post by Tek-Neek55


I'm not a Mason myself yet but If you would like to learn more of the Exoteric stuff about Freemasonry I suggest you look this site over.

Masonic Dictionary

I did not even realize the difference between the words Exoteric and esoteric until I found this site.

Originally posted by komodo_nl


Maybe I misunderstand the smiley thing. But let me reassure you: Scottish rite (ancient and accepted scottish rite, that is) is practised in at least one country outside the USA (and I happen to know of several others).

It's practiced in most every western-style democratic countries. But outside of the US and Canada, it is known as the Ancient and Accepted Rite (no "Scottish"). The Rite also vaguely corresponds to the Swedish Rite, with which it shares full recognition. A Tenth Degree member of the Swedish Rite (which is their highest degree) is recognized as a 33rd Degree member of the Scottish Rite in the US, and vice versa.

Same for York rite, memphis misraïm (although one can debate its regularity), rectified scottish rite, etc, etc.

True, however the actual term "York Rite" is rarely used outside of the US. All the degrees through Royal Arch are usually just called "Craft Masonry", with the Templary Orders being "Chivalric Masonry".

reply to post by Masonic Light


Makes sense... I think I need to do a bit of Masonic tourism around the World.. I don't know why but we Americans hardly ever seem to leave our own country (Canada doesn't count since it's just a suburb of America)

reply to post by Tek-Neek55


Sorry I came into this discussion a little late but to be honest there are a lot of books on Masonry. I am currently reading Wilmshurst's "Meaning of Masonry". It is a good book but his view point. Honestly if you want a good book on general Masonry and an overview Bro. Chris Hodapp's "Freemasons for Dummies" is a terrific book. There is a wide range of authors out there and it all depends on what you are looking for. There are a lot of great websites out there as well. Freemasoninformation.com is a great source of information on the Craft.

I hope this information helped you a little bit.

Originally posted by Tek-Neek55
Thanks again for the knowledge. What books might you recommend to entail more infomation that I am seeking, Im really interested in learning more....

The book most often suggested to all new masons is open to you to. Freemasonry for Dummies....is actually very good. I personally think anyone who actually wants to join though is better off not reading, because it does give some stuff away. The secrets of masonry are a bit like learning the plot line of a tv series before watching it. If you plan to watch it your better off NOT knowing before hand.

However if you really just want to learn from the outside in. It's a good book.

Originally posted by ForkandSpoon


The book most often suggested to all new masons is open to you to. Freemasonry for Dummies....

Why is a book for dummies the most often suggested???

Some Grand Lodges present to all newly made Masons a copy of "The Builders" by the Rev. Dr. Joseph Fort Newton. Newton wrote the book for that express purpose, and I wish the practice of presenting it to out new brothers was universal.

reply to post by Masonic Light


I say that the "Freemasons for Dummies" book is a good reference to have before you join so can get a very good relative overview of the fraternity, its symbols, teachings, etc... I don't think this should be your only read but i have gone through Bro. Christopher Hodapp's book and found it quite satisfying and easy to follow for the uninitiated.

reply to post by JoshNorton


Just wanted to say thank you.

I have been investigating freemasonry for quite some time now. Ironically, starting as an anti-mason, I've actually come to have a bit of respect for masonic ideas, and am now very seriously considering applying for membership to my local lodge. Will probably not be for a while still. Many factors to consider, but the supreme being thing was the main issue that had kept me from seriously considering it. The info from you and Rockpuck helped clear the fog a little. Btw, I do believe in God, and I would agree with your earlier statement that the bible contains many good teachings. The sermon on the mount and most of proverbs being excellent examples of this. I just perceive too many errors to call it the word of god. The phone book comment was not exactly meant to trash the bible. Was more trying to illustrate that a person takes an oath on the bible, because the bible is sacred to them and represents truth. But if a person believes the bible to be false and takes an oath on it, that would seem to be a problem. Perhaps I am being too literal though. I did like your suggestion that the bible is symbolic, not of the bible, but of the individual's perception of what is true and holy (at least that's how I interpreted what you said). Anyway thanks again.

reply to post by Tek-Neek55

1) You won't find anything with "Chiram Abiff", I'd advise looking "Hiram Abif", hell even the Bible talks about "Hiram Abif". Look at 1 Kings, chapter 7. Also, Abif was not used to construct pyramids.

2) Like Josh Norton talks about, but the Scottish Rite degrees are just enhancements to the Master Mason degree, but they are not superior in rank. If you are expelled from the Blue Lodge (the base of the tree) you are expelled from all the Rites and appendant bodies of Freemasonry.

And every time the Grand Master of the Blue Lodge visits other appendant bodies and Rites he is still introduced as the Grand Master of Masons in Idaho.

3) There is no definitive connection between the Knights Templar and the Freemasons. Any use of the Templar name is to commemorate their Christian deeds as Knights (Order of the Temple in the York Rite).

4) Not every pyramid is a square, some can be a triangle. And the floor of the Lodge room is oblong, rectangle, not square.

5) I do like your number twist. There is no pattern to how you did your numbers, sometimes you dropped a number, subtracted a number, or added one. Hell, with that logic you could tie any number and make it equal 9. The number 9 has nothing to do with Freemasonry. I will say that the Egyptians thought the number 9 was the number for infinity, not the sideways 8, as you can multiply 9 by any number, and add all the numbers of the answer together and it equals 9.

reply to post by Tek-Neek55

The 4th through the 32nd has meaning only the Scottish Rite, a branch of the Maosnic Fraternity.

[edit on 21-11-2009 by KSigMason]

reply to post by Tek-Neek55

There are a handful of officer positions that are elected, the rest are appointed by the Master (or whatever the name for the head of the appendant body). In the Blue Lodge there are 5-elected positions: Worshipful Master, Sr. Warden, Jr. Warden, Treasurer, and Secretary.

Depending on the jurisdiction there are requirements to be elected. In Idaho at least, every member of the Lodge, from the newest Entered Apprentice to the oldest Master Mason, is able to vote in the annual elections. The officers are elected for just a year.

As Master I run the Lodge, but many decisions still must get the 'OK' from the Lodge members.

Yes, I would say the Master Mason degree is a rank, when in comparison to the Entered Apprentice and Fellow Craft degrees.

Why are you not too keen on modern Masonry?

Originally posted by KSigMason
reply to post by Tek-Neek55

 

1) You won't find anything with "Chiram Abiff", I'd advise looking "Hiram Abif", hell even the Bible talks about "Hiram Abif". Look at 1 Kings, chapter 7. Also, Abif was not used to construct pyramids.

[edit on 21-11-2009 by KSigMason]

Hiram Abiff is decoded in this thread.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

It is the same as the OSIRIS / ISIS story form Egypt.
Hiram Abiff was a symbolic representative of Osiris, the Egyptian god of death and rebirth.



[edit on 22-11-2009 by hawk123]

reply to post by hawk123

So are you saying that Egyptian gods built the the Temple which was supposed to house the Judaic god?

Originally posted by KSigMason
reply to post by hawk123

 

So are you saying that Egyptian gods built the the Temple which was supposed to house the Judaic god?

The Hiram Abiff story is the same as OSIRIS.
www.i----i.org...

THE KEY = 66 or 666
www.i----i.org...
66 = Gematria of Gilgal
66 x 2 = 132 = QBL (Kaballah)
www.biblewheel.com...
66 x 8 = 528 = Baphomet (Solfeggio frequency)

666 = 432 + 234 (432 = radius sun in Miles x 1000)

And 666 is the length of a vesica, whose width is
384, or the sun’s radius (432) measured by the tone.
www.themasonictrowel.com... (Page 67)

9/11 x 528 (Solfeggio) = 432
8/11 x 528 (Solfeggio) = 384

Locrian music starting scale is 384, 432 .. 10368
The first step is 9/8 = 432/384

The weight of the gold Solomon received yearly was 666 talents.

That is why the Judaic God left Solomon.
Solomon had the full wisdom from Egypt (OSIRIS worship)

The OSIRIS (666) and ISIS (888) sides of a triangle provides a diagonal of (1110).




[edit on 22-11-2009 by hawk123]