Brits were in Iranian waters - I have proof

Originally posted by proprog
IRAN claims brits were captured 0.5 km inside iran.
[edit on 28-3-2007 by proprog]

Yea proprog, that was AFTER the first set of coordinates they provided proved they were in Iraqi waters. They then submitted a second set of coordinates that were in Iranian waters. This second set entirely contradicts the position of HMS Cornwall and the Indian merchant ship's captain.

Britain is trying to sort this out, but it seems that Iran is trying to make it much worse.

We said that if the troops are shown on TV, we would not be best please. we even gave them a warning not to.

So Iran has decided to do it

What bothers me is that the Iranians are NOT offering consular access to the captured sailors..
What could possibly the reason behind such restrictions..
I hope all is actually well with all 15 of them.

Originally posted by Daedalus3
What bothers me is that the Iranians are NOT offering consular access to the captured sailors..
What could possibly the reason behind such restrictions..
I hope all is actually well with all 15 of them.

What the UK media is worried about is this,

theory is that both sides are going to up the anti to the point where both just give up and agree to disagree. then the troops just come home.

but now, some reckon that the UK will demand all 15 not just 1 and Iran will push the British to the point of serious action.

Originally posted by stumason

Originally posted by Perplexed
We don't have people getting captured by the Iranians which says a lot about your so called superior training. Are you saying their training led them to capture? I really don't want our guys following that manual...

Let us not forget who brought us to the brink of war with Iran here... It was the Brits that got them selves caught here. We may be at war yet and you still want to malign the US for your alleged stupidity? I say alleged because I am willing to wait and see.

Let's hope your guys have the proof that says you were not over the line. If not Blair may have to save "face" we may have to start shooting and it will be the UK we will be looking at as the war monger here. I suppose you will spin it otherwise though. In true British fashion you start the fight and ask us to finish it and we are still a red headed step child... whatever..

Hand in mouth gathers no foot...

Firstly, I qualified my statement with the last paragraph stating about the ROE these guy's where under. No stupidity, in fact it was cool heads that have us following the diplomatic channels as opposed to already being at war.

So how about you actually read up the circumstances surrounding the kidnapping before firing off. That is exactly what i was posting against and you've proven my point, ie; there are those in America who seem to think a cowboy attitude and shooting anything with a turban is the way forward.

In fact no I don't think shooting first was the answer. Nice of you to put words in my mouth though... I think the first answer was to evade.

What I mean by that so you are clear is that the Brits put themselves into a position to be captured. Why they did that we will most likely never know. If it was a surprise capture then shame on their training. The communication between larger ships, choppers and the patrol boat broke down. The Brits should have known what was coming and took evasive action to evade capture. With today’s technology there is no excuse for capture in open waters by a lesser opponent. That is unless you are incompetent.

Now if this is how it played out then as I said before, shame on the Brits for bring us to the brink. I also stand by my first statement about your "superior training."

If not then we are all being bamboozled by both sides in this "end game."

Originally posted by Perplexed
What I mean by that so you are clear is that the Brits put themselves into a position to be captured. Why they did that we will most likely never know.

They were taking part in a routine anti-smuggling search of a vessel (in Iraqi waters) which had occurred over sixty times so far, with four previous searches close to where the kidnapping took place.

They were 1.7 nautical miles inside Iraqi waters - the Iranians didn't just drift over there by mistake. The Iranians broke international law, crossed into a sovereign nation's waters (which they accused Britain of doing), kidnapped fifteen Royal Navy personnel operating under a UN Security Council Resolution with full permission from the Iraqi government. And again, I emphasise that patrols in this area had occurred numerous times before without incident. Their position has been verified by both GPS and a third party (the Indian vessel and its crew, who have not moved since the incident took place).

Added to the fact that Iran initially gave two completely different and contradictory sets of coordinates (changing its mind when it was pointed out that the first set of coordinates they gave were in Iraqi waters... you don't make a mistake that big in an incident like this - they must've made the coordinates up and not realised that they were actually coordinates for Iraqi waters, so had to change their mind to save face), this smacks of a planned operation by hard liners in Tehran and not either a deliberate or an accidental violation of Iranian borders by the British personnel.

It is perhaps their training which saved their own lives and kept the incident from going over the brink. They saw they were surrounded, outnumbered and outgunned (according to BBC News the Iranian boats had heavy machine guns and RPGs) and decided that fighting was not the best option in this case.

I don't know if this has been announced yet but on CNN they just read a letter (of course from the girl) that says 3-4 times. "I guess we were over the line" and "I wrote another letter to the Iranian people apologizing for our actions."

Among other sniveling crap.

If true, I sure hope that this 'persuades' you fine folks to discontinue the gender experiment in the RN. Between our numbnuts in the EP-3 deciding they'd prefer self-internment on Hainan over a swimming lesson and now your 'repeat offense' jaywalking or whatever; it's no wonder that half the world thinks they can take us on.

Of course you also have to understand how this looks to Arabs who are masculinists in the extreme. We put big butch looking women in our ranks and then we 'deal through them' as a kind of get out of jail free card because we are too afraid to leverage our way out any other way.

Since muslims have no shame in allowing their own women to become Insurgents and indeed Shahid (in Iraq a few were tank drivers) this is of course hypocritical in the extreme but in their world, constant video of Brits as 'focused on the female' is a a sotto voce question whether you have as much as deserve to be kicked in your collective testicles.

"Weaker. And Weaker. And Weaker. Real Soon they will be ready for the knife."

That's what the next Osama is saying. And he's saying it to a crowded mosque full of eager disciples who's first thought is not how outrageous this is (because it's little more than 'draw a line in the sand' schoolyard bully fight). But rather "If they can't protect their own, how dare they think they can 'guard' us?"

Myself, I'd like to hear an official sea lawyer give forth on Three Questions:

1. If a non-hostle member of one nation's armed forces is captured under conditions other than war, while wearing a uniform and undertaking their duties for the crown, are they still given the benefit of not having to give more than name, rank and serial?

2. If the same conditions apply, are they to be given the dignity of protected faces in front of cameras and the assurity of a neutral third party confirmation of conditions under which any 'confessions' were extracted?

3. Is Iran bound by any of the Hague or Geneva conventions which apply to the first two rules?

CONCLUSION:
Like I said, if this woman in fact wrote the letter that was just read over the air, she is a stupid cow and should be drummed out of the armed forces, _immediately_ upon completion of her courts martial. And all other females be given a 'serious looking at' for their appropriateness in being in a combat area (especially on a ship as small as an FFG/DDG).

In any case, Tony Blair should quit mugging the camera and put in a call to Ahmehinjad (I hope I mispelled that) with the notification that he doesn't give a rats ass about 15 cream puff pasty morons but 'as a matter of principle' the Iranians will hand over their living souls or their corpses because if they don't, there will be cruise missiles in the Iranian Parliament, Presidential Residences and Oil Terminals at Kharg and 'any other NIORDC facilites we deem interesting'. Within 15 hours.

"And oh, btw. While we wait, it's open season on the bloody Iranian Navy /again/."

There _is a time_ when a little Cowboy Diplomacy gets you more than BOHICA'ing for 'The Persians' ever will.

I swear to god, Nelson must be doing 8 pointers.


KPl.

Originally posted by ch1466snip drivel

KPl.

Lord above, mate! Did you say all this when the male naval officers and marines admitted on camera to illegally entering Iranian waters in 2004? Bunch of pansies, eh(?) These people are not trained in interrogations, only those who at the most risk ever receive such training like the SAS, SBS, air crews, rescue teams. They just want to get home. Who knows what threats have been made. They look well and fine on that video, but we only have the Iranians word it was filmed today. It could have easily been shot over the weekend and who knows what has been going on since?

And great idea on attacking them before all diplomacy options have been exhausted(!) I'm sure those 15 lives are well worth the price for killing a few thousand of them on the first night

The only happy ending here is getting those sailors and marines home to their families.

Originally posted by ch1466CONCLUSION:
Like I said, if this woman in fact wrote the letter that was just read over the air, she is a stupid cow and should be drummed out of the armed forces, _immediately_ upon completion of her courts martial. And all other females be given a 'serious looking at' for their appropriateness in being in a combat area (especially on a ship as small as an FFG/DDG).

KPl.

I actualy laughed when i read the above comment, it was really that ignorant! So should the other marines there be court martialled and drummed out of the forces for being stupid enough to get captured? Of course not!
Then again, you could always spend 5 minutes in the same room as these brits if they are released and put your suggestions to them face to face.....i'm sure they'd welcome your input.

Bearing in mind Faye Turney's current circumstances, what exactly has she done that is so stupid? Written a letter which has possibly/probably been dictated to her by the Iranian's? Is that such a stupid act?

Leading Seaman Faye Turney has a husband and two small kids at home, lets not forget that the other lads that were captured have family and probably kids too. If writing a letter such as this gets you home, then i'm certainly not blameing her for writing it.

She has'nt given away any major secrets and from what the letter and interview showed, the only info apart from the required "name rank and number" she gave was the number of her ship.....something anyone can see anytime by looking at the side of the damn thing!

Anyone who critisizes the actions of these captured sailors should go try it for a spell, see how you react when you are in potential enemy hands with the risk of an espionage charge and possible death sentence hanging over you!

As for the comment about women in combat, whilst i can see how it can bring up certain issues, i personally have worked alonside women in the forces that i'd rather have next to me in a firefight than certain cowboy males i can mention. Take a look at Youtube sometime and see some of the less than professional footage of male soldiers on the front line.

Faye Turney has served 9 years in the Royal Navy, she obviously is'nt that stupid if she has held down her position for that long is she?

I hate to jump to conclusions, but comments like this usualy come from people that have never seen combat themselves or have a serious issue with women and combat, two things they need to either do something about or let is rest as the ignorance can get pretty boring after a while!

CX.

[edit on 29/3/07 by CX]

ch1416...

Do you have some special inside knowledge of what these sailors and marines are trained to do in the event they are captured? Do you know for a hard fact that they are NOT told to give whatever statement necessary to secure their release? Is it not possible that it was the IRANIANS that chose the female for the statement and not visa versa?

This situation has played out several times in the past. Who gives a flying fig WHAT statement they make? The truth will come out when they're released. Judge not dude. You haven't been in their boots.

So, whats going to happen.

We know the UN had a recent security council meeting about Iran and passed some sanctions against them. They sure are bent out of shape over that!

They have until the end of May when the next meeting about Iran will take place. Since we already know they wont comply with anything, look for the sanctions to get tougher until both sides reach a point of no return.

Inbetween those meetings will be a meeting about the hostage crisis. So if the hostages arent released by the end of May, look for the May sanctions to have some extra teeth in it.

Most of Europe didnt want to reinvade Iraq in 2003. I dont hear European countries sounding off against hostilities with Iran the way they did against Iraq.

Will there be war with Iran? Yes.

Within the next 60 days? No.

Just my opinion. I hope Im wrong!

Peace until war....

Now what have you gone and done Kurt..

This link by Craig Murray may have been useful for your thread. Craig Murray was a british ambassador to Uzbek
www.craigmurray.co.uk...

He states that the British produced a fake map to show the soldiers were in Iraqi waters, UK just invented the boundary line between Iran and Iraq waters, and he shows that the soldiers were closer to Iran than Iraq, so the Iranians have a case that the soldiers were in their territory.