Video: American Soldiers Shooting Iraqi Civilians

Originally posted by whaaa



So I guess you need to be reminded again, that this is a little more complex than good guys, bad guys.

This is a religious/civil war that the American Military is caught in the middle of. This was totally unexpected by the Military planners and now who is going to pay the price? Not the desk jockeys, but the grunts.
Bring them home now. Democracy will never work in a tribal society no matter how much you want it to. Let the Iraqi's work it out on their own.

I know its complex. Question is who is doing most of the fighting? Why is one side targeting another in the first place? What started it? If you look at the map and where most of the American troops have been killed, its mostly in the Anbar province comprised of Sunni majority. Interesting eh? The Iraqi Kurds are not fighting us and they are Iraqis. Why are they not resisting? Sunnis are...but for what reason? Shiites are not...but why?

This is not a civil war as most people put it because I doubt that the Khurds and Shiites want a war on their hands, it is the sunnies going on as many massacres and killing sprees as possible as religious vengeance allows for.

We removed their power and hand in Iraq and now their pissed basically. The enemy is one that hides behind women and children.

According to some people's logics, our Marines are better off taking off their body armor, giving a random Iraqi Sunni the gun and saying "Here, shoot me". Not leaving them much option!

Shattered OUT...

Originally posted by deltaboy

Hey I understand what you mean by resisting against an occupation. But that does not justified in killing civilians.

Thats not the subject of the thread. The subject is American soldiers killing Iraqis.

Why do you bring up something unrelated?

Are you implying that because of the civil war brewing American soldiers have a right to shoot at anything that moves?

Originally posted by Kr0n0s
Im still waiting on your answer on what an Iraqi Insurgents uniform looks like? What type of insignias do they use and what color are the uniforms?

Stop waiting. They don't have uniforms. So....they must be civilians!

Whats the difference between an Insurgent and an innocent civilian?

Originally posted by Malichai
Are you implying that because of the civil war brewing American soldiers have a right to shoot at anything that moves?

That's the current excuse, yes. Sad isn't it?

Originally posted by Malichai
Thats not the subject of the thread. The subject is American soldiers killing Iraqis.

Why do you bring up something unrelated?

Are you implying that because of the civil war brewing American soldiers have a right to shoot at anything that moves?

You assuming that what I mentioned is related to this? Back to topic......

As I have mentioned before, I posted a video where a supposedly innocent man is carrying a cellphone and detonates a VBIED at an Iraqi police vehicle. Does that mean that he is innocent of wrongdoing because he is not carrying a "weaopn"? In a situation where insurgents and civilians cannot be distinguish, don't get pissed off at the Marines. Get pissed off at the insurgents who makes civilians look like an army itself that needs to be killed. An example of this video of a man with a phone that can kill, it makes all civilians who carrys a cellphone in a warzone must be kill without hesitation. Get my point?

Democracy can work in that type of a society, it is working in Turkey isnt it?
As much as id like to see are guys get out of that killing field asap, you gotta know that if we abandon them now, the current Iraqi President would be assassinated which would open up a huge power vacuum in Iraq.
You also have to remember that there is a segment of Iraqi society that wants this to work, some of these guys risk their lives everyday to be a part of the Iraqi National Guard or Police Force.
They cant even let their neighbors find out where they work, for fear that the would come in the middle of the night and execute them and their families.
Not everyone in Iraq wants us out, there are some that do want this to work, so the others have not died in vain.

Originally posted by whaaa

Originally posted by deltaboy

So they have the right to kill American troops, but it seems to me they are more successful in killing Iraqi civilians than American troops. Do they have that right to go killing their own people which they seem happy and eager to do?

So I guess you need to be reminded again, that this is a little more complex than good guys, bad guys.

This is a religious/civil war that the American Military is caught in the middle of. This was totally unexpected by the Military planners and now who is going to pay the price? Not the desk jockeys, but the grunts.
Bring them home now. Democracy will never work in a tribal society no matter how much you want it to. Let the Iraqi's work it out on their own.

Originally posted by Malichai

Originally posted by Bugman82
and how did an administrator of these boards, someone who is supposed to deny ignorance, come to the immediate "murder" conclusion with no evidence in the 4th post in this thread?

Conclusions are based on available evidence.

Do you have anything more to add to the evidence?

Did you see my post of evidence on page 7?

[edit on 25-3-2007 by Bugman82]

Yes you are exactly right there are NO uniforms, so why did you say this then??
Insurgents do NOT wear uniforms when, so does that mean even if theyre standing there with a rifle pointed at a marine, that theyre a civilian non-combatant? according to your logic, thats the case

Did you see any military uniforms on the people being shot at? If not they are civilians.

Originally posted by Malichai

Originally posted by Kr0n0s
Im still waiting on your answer on what an Iraqi Insurgents uniform looks like? What type of insignias do they use and what color are the uniforms?

Stop waiting. They don't have uniforms. So....they must be civilians!

Whats the difference between an Insurgent and an innocent civilian?

[edit on 25-3-2007 by Kr0n0s]

deltaboy,

If the U.S. had suffered a Soviet invasion, would you sneak about town with your gun wearing a uniform?

Would you consider that in your country's best interest, to increase the chances of your apprehension/death?

Originally posted by SteveR
deltaboy,

If the U.S. had suffered a Soviet invasion, would you sneak about town with your gun wearing a uniform?

Would you consider that in your country's best interest, to increase the chances of your apprehension/death?

I wear a uniform because thats what you joined the military for. To defend the country with a weapon. Should soldiers not wear uniforms at all and just fight in Iraq looking like civilians? It makes the world think America's population is all military from kids to adults.

Which would mean those kids and adults in "uniform" should be targeted.

[edit on 25-3-2007 by deltaboy]

lol you guys are not making any sense at all. you keep saying that these guys are civilians and not enemy combatants but then you go on and admit that insurgents wear no uniforms and are not otherwise distinguished from civilians.
So how do you know the guy laying dead or injured in that video is not an insurgent?
you dont know, so your stories have no credibility.

Originally posted by deltaboy
I wear a uniform because thats what you joined the military for. To defend the country with a weapon. Should soldiers not wear uniforms at all and just fight in Iraq looking like civilians? It makes the world think America's population is all military from kids to adults.

In the example I gave, I find it hard to beleive every resistance fighter including you would put themselves in extreme danger by wearing a uniform, and make their own act of resistance a futility.

If you want to accomplish something, you have to balance the odds in your favor. Refering back to Iraq, it's not as if there is only 500 US troops in Baghdad. Insurgents know they are going to die by facing such a large occupying force, why make the job easier for their enemy?

Originally posted by Kr0n0s
lol you guys are not making any sense at all. you keep saying that these guys are civilians and not enemy combatants but then you go on and admit that insurgents wear no uniforms and are not otherwise distinguished from civilians.
So how do you know the guy laying dead or injured in that video is not an insurgent?
you dont know, so your stories have no credibility.

I'm rather confused about people's conclusions in this thread also.
-We've determined there is AFK fire in the background.
-Sniper bullets have been fired.
-Both cars come into the scene together (a normal insurgency tactic) in order to aid their comrades under fire. When insurgents do this they will rush onto the scene and use a vehicle for cover. They usually have no idea how many US soldiers are involved.......in this situation they underestimated.

Ok, with these ideas shown to be evidence that they are not civillians point to evidences that they are please.......not counting the clothes they are wearing....

Let me point to the one piece of evidence I see that supports the civillian theory ------- The title of a propoganda news source uses "Americans Shooting Iraqi Civillians" -------- That is the only evidence I have seen laid out so far.

[edit on 25-3-2007 by Bugman82]

Originally posted by SteveR
In the example I gave, I find it hard to beleive every resistance fighter including you would put themselves in extreme danger by wearing a uniform, and make their own act of resistance a futility.

If you want to accomplish something, you have to balance the odds in your favor. Refering back to Iraq, it's not as if there is only 500 US troops in Baghdad. Insurgents know they are going to die by facing such a large occupying force, why make the job easier for their enemy?

Well then, the American troops should all stop wearing uniforms from now on eh? Make ourselves look more civilian so the enemy should just kill anyone that looks suspected of hostile intent.

Originally posted by SteveR
deltaboy,

If the U.S. had suffered a Soviet invasion, would you sneak about town with your gun wearing a uniform?

Would you consider that in your country's best interest, to increase the chances of your apprehension/death?

I would welcome our new soviet leaders, because I personally wouldnt die for any country.

Originally posted by Kr0n0s
lol you guys are not making any sense at all. you keep saying that these guys are civilians and not enemy combatants but then you go on and admit that insurgents wear no uniforms and are not otherwise distinguished from civilians.
So how do you know the guy laying dead or injured in that video is not an insurgent?
you dont know, so your stories have no credibility.

You are asking us to disprove a negative? Very funny.

The burden of proof is you to show that he is an insurgent and not an innocent civilian.

Originally posted by deltaboy
Well then, the American troops should all stop wearing uniforms from now on eh? Make ourselves look more civilian so the enemy should just kill anyone that looks suspected of hostile intent.

Deltaboy, you know I am speaking of facing insurmountable odds. At no point in my posts did I imply all military should abandon uniforms. Honestly, as an insurgent, would you sign your own death warrant and wear a uniform?

Good job bugman, i think we can all say thats a fair assessment of whats going on on here.. except this hasnt been answered by them.. what would
a civilian be doing driving up fast into a known firezone, right in the middle of a firefight? he wouldnt, which gives even more credence to him being an insurgent and not a civilian.

Originally posted by Bugman82

Originally posted by Kr0n0s
lol you guys are not making any sense at all. you keep saying that these guys are civilians and not enemy combatants but then you go on and admit that insurgents wear no uniforms and are not otherwise distinguished from civilians.
So how do you know the guy laying dead or injured in that video is not an insurgent?
you dont know, so your stories have no credibility.

I'm rather confused about people's conclusions in this thread also.
-We've determined there is AFK fire in the background.
-Sniper bullets have been fired.
-Both cars come into the scene together (a normal insurgency tactic) in order to aid their comrades under fire. When insurgents do this they will rush onto the scene and use a vehicle for cover. They usually have no idea how many US soldiers are involved.......in this situation they underestimated.

Ok, with these ideas shown to be evidence that they are not civillians point to evidences that they are please.......not counting the clothes they are wearing....

Originally posted by Malichai

Originally posted by Kr0n0s
lol you guys are not making any sense at all. you keep saying that these guys are civilians and not enemy combatants but then you go on and admit that insurgents wear no uniforms and are not otherwise distinguished from civilians.
So how do you know the guy laying dead or injured in that video is not an insurgent?
you dont know, so your stories have no credibility.

You are asking us to disprove a negative? Very funny.

The burden of proof is you to show that he is an insurgent and not an innocent civilian.

We have layed out evidence for them not being civillians. Why is the burden of proof on us? Is the burden of proof on us arguing that those are insurgents because a propoganda news source has titled this video "American Soldiers Shooting Iraqi Civilians". And we wonder why the judicial system in the United States claims "Innocent before proven guilty".