Video: American Soldiers Shooting Iraqi Civilians

This will be my last post on this topic since it is really going nowhere, proving NOTHING for anyone, and won't change the minds of anyone who has posted their own opinions. BUT I do have to say one last thing to all the people who posted NEGATIVE things about the men & women in uniform for this country.

Are you willing to back up ALL of your Anti-American, BUSH bashing, Murderer quotes by packing up and leaving this country and the freedoms you have enjoyed and live elswhere? WAR got you the rights you enjoy, WAR has ensured the rights you enjoy, and WAR is the ONLY thing that will EVER keep those rights in place. I'm guessing NONE of you who live within our borders who bash our ways are to eager to give up the comfort you have been given by few who earned it for you. So until your either willing to move elsewhere, or willing to put YOUR emotions aside and be a part of the SMALL percentage of people who created,forged, and continue to secure this country, there is nothing more to say.

Freedom the American way isn't free..and I'll be the first to admit it sure as hell isn't always clean...but if your willing to stay and use the Constitutional Rights we have in place, then quite frankly..(using your words) your a murderer, liar, sadistic coward just like those of us who pull the triggers!!!!!!!!!!



[edit on 25/3/07 by shadow_soldier1975]

Originally posted by Doc Velocity
I'm still waiting for Malichai to reply to this:

Originally posted by Doc Velocity
Are we ignoring the closing title on the video, as well, placed there by one of the Marine participants (known as "Doc")? No unarmed people were hurt during shooting. Now, I consider that a pretty compelling statement, and it's contained right there in the video. So, how did you arrive at the conclusion that the Marines were shooting presumably "unarmed" civilians? It flies in the face of the evidence contained in this video.

Unless, of course, you are calling the videographer a liar, because you know for a fact that unarmed civilians are being shot. Do you know that for a fact? Because, if you don't, you've posted a thread based on false assumptions on ATS.

— Doc Velocity

I arrived at the conclusion by looking at the video and not seeing any weapons or any aggressive actions.

They were running away as best they could in obvious terror.

Why should I even answer such a ridiculous question?

BTW- Please read the terms and conditions for forum members....

Originally posted by Xeros
They [the Marines] don't want to look like cowards that they may be now do they? They want to look like tough guys, "defending freedom". He could be just saving his ass, but who knows.

Ah. Exactly. Who knows?

The videographer is called by name in the audio portion of the video: "Doc"... He even signs his name at the end of the video: by Doc... Followed by No unarmed people were hurt during the shooting.

The point is, how does Malichai know that Doc is lying? Doc was there, Malichai was not. Yet Malichai is certain enough of his thesis that he titles this thread Video: American Soldiers Shooting Iraqi Civilians. Somebody is not telling the truth. Who is it? And how do we know?

—Doc Velocity

[edit on 3/25/2007 by Doc Velocity]

Originally posted by Malichai
Why should I even answer such a ridiculous question?

Because we have conflicting information here. Your thread title is seemingly not based on information contained in the video. The video says No unarmed people were hurt during the shooting... The "unarmed" people would be civilians, wouldn't they? The "armed" people would be combatants, wouldn't they?

So, in titling this thread Video: American Soldiers Shooting Iraqi Civilians, you're refuting the information contained in the video. Why is your information in conflict with the video's information?

Not a ridiculous question at all.

— Doc Velocity

Originally posted by shadow_soldier1975


Freedom the American way isn't free..and I'll be the first to admit it sure as hell isn't always clean...but if your willing to stay and use the Constitutional Rights we have in place, then quite frankly..(using your words) your a murderer, liar, sadistic coward just like those of us who pull the triggers!!!!!!!!!!



[edit on 25/3/07 by shadow_soldier1975]

Yes war has gotten us freedoms. War in times when Britain controlled us. In times when Britain attacked us again in 1812. When Germany and Japan threatened to take over the world. But will invading Iraq and making most of the world, especially the middle east, when not needed, get us freedoms?

Not when Iraq didn't really do much of anything to threaten us directly. Al Qaeda yes, but if i'm not mistaken, Saudi Arabia, one of our "allies", has supplied more Al Qaeda terrorists than most other countries. Isn't Iraq more of a secular state? Hell I think Osama was actually ready to defend Saudi Arabia from Iraq before we went in before the Gulf War happened.

Iraq wasn't as oil friendly as our "friend" Saudi Arabia. I guarantee that if Saudi Arabia didn't supply us with most of our oil, they would be included in the axis of evil. But even though ALOT of the terrorists come from Saudi Arabia, they are our "friend".

This war in Iraq is not based on our needs to preserve our freedom. If it was, we'd be going into the right places. Come on, North Korea spent months threatening us with NUCLEAR WEAPONS. Saddam didn't do anything. Did we do a thing to north korea? No. If i'm not mistaken again, aren't we now cowtowing to them since they have backed down? North Korea sure as hell posed more of a threat to us than Iraq. If we were to be worried about preserving our freedoms, I highly doubt we'd be worrying about Iraq quite so much. If you want to worry about preserving our freedom, i'd take a good long hard look at what is going on within our own country first.

Take a look at this map
www.mapsofworld.com...

If you ask me, the only freedoms we are preserving by invading Iraq is the freedom to keep full size pickup trucks the top 3 selling vehicles in this country for years and years. And the freedom to keep upgrading our soccer moms to Suburbans, Escalades, and Excursions.

[edit on 25-3-2007 by el_madmaster]

There "evidence" fell apart almost as soon as it was posted. They could not prove that these were actually civilians, they cant prove that the one guy laying down was actually a civilian or prove that he was even shot.
All that can be determined from this clip was from the audio and what the Marines were saying. They could be heard saying that some were shot and someone was filled up with 30 rounds but who the victim is was not known because there was no scenes of anyone getting shot once much less 30 times.
Weak case, this wouldnt even hold up in court.

Okay, I guess that ends my interrogation here. No straight answers, and finally a u2u warning from the OP:

by Malichai
You are badgering me in the video thread. Please cease before I am forced to complain to the administration.

There you go. Now I have to cease asking questions. Adios!

— Doc Velocity

HAHAHA Exactly what i thought. He couldnt back up his statements, he couldnt prove anything he said was the truth and when pressed for answers, he blames us for badgering him in this thread.
Youre the one making outlandish claims even in the title of your thread "American soldiers shooting Iraqi citizens" lol what a fraud

Originally posted by Doc Velocity
Okay, I guess that ends my interrogation here. No straight answers, and finally a u2u warning from the OP:

by Malichai
You are badgering me in the video thread. Please cease before I am forced to complain to the administration.

There you go. Now I have to cease asking questions. Adios!

— Doc Velocity

I didn't read every single post that was made, but a common discussion topic people keep bringing up is the fact that the marines in the video seem to be excited and on a huge adrenalin rush.

Now, if they really are lighting up civilians, which we still don't know for sure, then yeah, they shouldn't be laughing or enjoying themselves.

But if that isn't the case, and this is a real fire fight, then who are you to judge? If you have never been on the front lines with a gun in your hands and had bullets fly at you left and right, then maybe you shouldn't be the judge on what emotions should be evoked in this type of situation.

This war is obviously causing major psychological issues with our soldiers, and when your life is centered around killing, then the ways you become excited and deal with stress change greatly.

Just because 99% of all the war movies you have seen show soldiers engaged in combat scared as hell doesn't mean that is what real life is like.

Originally posted by Malichai

Originally posted by Doc Velocity

Frankly, I'm astonished that ATS would allow this sort of sensational editorialism, when it is not known that American soldiers are shooting Iraqi civilians in this video. The evidence simply is not there. And the responsibility for proof falls to those who claim these are Iraqi civilians, and that they are being shot.

So, where's the proof?

It certainly is American soldiers so its likely in Iraq or Afghanistan.

Did you see any military uniforms on the people being shot at? If not they are civilians.

What would make them into 'insurgents'? An act of belligerence. Did you see any of the people driving in the cars attack the soldiers? No.

The conclusion, without evidence of an act of belligerence, must be that civilians were attacked.

The fact that they drove into a firefight would be reason enought to get shot. Under the Rules of Engagement they are justified in what happned. I still say they most likely were trying to aid the insurgents. There is absolutely no reason to drive into a firefight, none period.

The fact that they drove into a firefight would be reason enought to get shot. Under the Rules of Engagement they are justified in what happned. I still say they most likely were trying to aid the insurgents. There is absolutely no reason to drive into a firefight, none period.

What if they didn't know there was a firefight going on? If the marines were poking their heads out of a roof firing into building windows across the street, the civilians may have just been minding their own business and not seen any of it until they were directly in front of it. If they were just driving along with music playing, perhaps they didn't hear the gunshots, though gun shots are pretty dang loud to not hear, even with music blasting.

You may also notice that both of those cars turned right - perhaps in an attempt to get away from the firefight they may have surprisingly driven into.

Whatever the case, if they were civilians, they should have been more cautious. If not, then oh well. That second car seemed to have been driving fairly fast. It's war, and things happen. These sort of things happen all the time in Iraq these days. Between the soldiers being pressed for longer and longer preiods of time, and not knowing who'se a friend or foe, it must be incredibly difficult. I pray things don't get any worse with Iraq's eastern neighbor.

[edit on 26-3-2007 by el_madmaster]

Originally posted by Xeros

Originally posted by Doc Velocity
Are you calling the videographer, a person who was there on the ground in Ramadi, a liar?

They don't want to look like cowards that they may be now do they? They want to look like tough guys, "defending freedom". He could be just saving his ass, but who knows.

I'm interested to know, what's to stop any civilians driving past, without realising that there is a firefight happening. How can anyone put the blame on them, if they are civilians?

[edit on 25-3-2007 by Xeros]

Only civilians with a death wish drive through firefights. You can hear gunfire well over a mile away. It gets louder as you get closer. If they didn't want to be there they wouldn't of drove there.

Doc, I think your reasoning is a bit specious on a few points. Mainly the authenticity of the graphic at the end and of the videographer. No, I'm not calling 'Doc' a liar, but you seem to be putting a lot of weight onto a graphic that is displayed on screen. People can put anything they like on a video screen - that doesn't make it fact. Also, there is no guarantee whatsoever that the person who put this graphic on the video is the same person who was taping, or that they have even ever been to Iraq.

Your reasoning seems fairly balanced otherwise, and though I think we are in disagreement over the point of the war and whether we should be there, I can definitely respect your manner and approach. I just think you've put an incredible amount of weight into what is technically just letters on the screen. Particularly your saying that Doc has 'signed' this video is worrying to me. A written signature and putting someone's name in text on something are two different things.

I don't really want to weigh in on the video itself - except to say that the 'presumption of guilt' people seem to be attacking the 'presumption of innocence' people for their presumptions and vice versa. Innocent until proven guilty, guilty until proven innocent - how about nothing until proven so?

Originally posted by TheStev
Doc, I think your reasoning is a bit specious on a few points. Mainly the authenticity of the graphic at the end and of the videographer. No, I'm not calling 'Doc' a liar, but you seem to be putting a lot of weight onto a graphic that is displayed on screen. People can put anything they like on a video screen - that doesn't make it fact.

Quite so, and I wasn't endorsing it as fact... My point was that there is information (genuine or not) contained within the video that seems to conflict with the premise of this thread. Perhaps the video disclaimer is false — but perhaps not. Who is to say? I know, from repeatedly watching this video, both with audio and without, that it's impossible for the viewer to make a determination of who is a civilian and who is not. Just not possible, not enough data to make the call.

Therefore, the premise of this thread — Video: American Soldiers Shooting Iraqi Civilians — is at best an assumption and not a fact, either. And, if you'll read back through the thread, you'll see that the OP emphatically condemns the making of assumptions. Which is an apparent contradiction.

Okay, that's it for me, I have to cease and desist, because I'm badgering.

— Doc Velocity

[edit on 3/26/2007 by Doc Velocity]

I saw this video before ever reading anything on this thread. My initial reaction to the two cars pulling up AT THE SAME TIME was that it was reinforcements for the insurgents. There's no way you would overlook that much gunfire and stop right at the middle of a battle unless you wanted to be involved.

I suppose it is possible that they were innocent, but if I was on the rooftop with the U.S. forces I would have assumed they were with the enemy. The U.S. troops were obviously under fire or they wouldn't have been ducking down behind the wall all the time.

As far as their attitude, they probably should have been a little more respectful of human life but I can't fault them for cheering when they finished off the bad guys. They were in a life or death situation the adrenaline was pumping. Most people would be happy about getting rid of someone who was shooting at them. I have no doubt that the insurgents would have cheered just as loud if they had killed off all the U.S. forces on that rooftop.

Ok. This is ATS, let's find this marine. Let's proove our worth here and find him. OK? we can only but try. It is possible and I'm going to try and would appreciate any help that I can get. U2U me with any suggestions please.

[edit on 26-3-2007 by Xeros]

we knew a guy who joined the marines. when he went in, he was a pretty mild-mannered guy. when he came out, he was off the richter scale, tense as a piece of iron, energy oozing out his pores. he was a stick of dynamite.

marines have absolutely no fear, no remorse.
they are the first into enemy territory.
if they didn't have nerves of steel and a flippant attitude about dying or death,
they'd never make it as marines.

Originally posted by Doc Velocity

Originally posted by SteveR
Do you see Iraqis as human beings? Are you aware what you describe is not a liberation, but an imperial invasion? Pretty much exemplified by the Nazi invasions and occupations in Europe?

First, I see Americans as human beings, and the rest of the earth's population as savages.

I stopped reading about anything you had to say after that beautiful display of ignorant thinking.

My father felt sick watching this. He was disgusted at the, almost orgasmic stance that these bastards took. It brings a whole new meaning to "support our troops" I will not be supporting them, even my cousin who is in Iraq. May god bless him and bring him home safeley.

[edit on 26-3-2007 by Xeros]

War is War. As bad as it sounds I have to go with kill or be killed.

We are supposed to fight by the old rules of engagement but wars aren't fought that way anymore.

It seems to me that we and our allies are to fight one way and they (the enemy) can do whatever they want well, something ain't right with that.

I would think when you know you are about to kill your body would respond in this manner you were taught by your superiors.

These people will use there own children to kill your family member without thought.

If a small child was walking to a group of our soldiers let's say for some candy they are passing out and one of our soldiers further down the block saw this child had an explosive device on him and was about to blow up our people and the soldier shot and killed this kid, would this soldier be a hero for saving "our" people or go into court marshall and be held accountable with his life because he killed this kid.

If anything here at this site you also know how film can be hoaxed. We weren't there and we don't know what happened and we will probably never know. Innocent until proven quilty not the other way around.

Weather this was true or not I will go with our people and allies and there judgements. I believe that if the innocent people there chose to they could have and should have left a war zone.

If any of those men were my family member I would be right there with them cause this is war and you have to do what you have to do weather an innocent gets killed or not.

"God bless our men and women" and if you want to blame anyone blame Bush he is the one that started this and he is the one that should be held accountable.

My heart is with all our soldiers souls that aren't going to breathe another breath of air because of the likes of the ones that are truly evil in the high offices of the different governments on this planet.