Video: American Soldiers Shooting Iraqi Civilians

Thank the gods for people like you Bugman, and I'm glad the MODS finally got around to visiting this thread. I gotta be honest, I was SHOCKED by how much hatred and hostility was in this thread, and thought it would have been closed long before now.

what a reward to look through your ACOG and see your rounds impact flesh. **** yeah!

That is the type of mentality that sends countries to war in the first place.
I understand that if you have to kill somone in order to protect yourself then you do what you gotta do, but to take such pleasure in taking life like that helps me understand how the mind must have to desensitize traumatic experiences, either that or these guys are just sick.

Originally posted by magicmushroom
Isn't it rich so called American patriots calling the rest of us savages, well the only savages here were the star's n stripes.

Doc Velocity your a hypocrite first you slag people off for calling Americans Nazis then scream that you want all those in the ME other than Israel wiping out so yes that does make you a Nazi because thats what they did did they not. So there you go your just another Nazi one of many American Nazis who wish to rule the earth. Those who think they are superior to all others, well guess what no your not.

Well dont worry you and your kind will go the way of the Nazis, Once the US fails in the ME we will have a nice round of war trials for all you Nazis.

And yet I'm the one who gets censored and receives a warning.

— Doc Velocity

If any member has issue with a post, I suggest using the ATS Complain/Suggestion Form.

If you are not already, I suggest you familiarize yourself with Godwin's Law.

I would appeal to all participants to post within the Terms & Conditions Of Use.

Thanks.

[edit on 27/3/2007 by Mirthful Me]

Bugman82 great research, and you nailed it.

This puts the clip in context from the person taking it and who was there. And not people watching it making biased assumptions to fit there anti-American tastes of who was carrying weapons and who was what. etc.

He could be lying, but I doubt he is, as it sounds like he could provide even more footage to verify.

Originally posted by kleverone

what a reward to look through your ACOG and see your rounds impact flesh. **** yeah!

That is the type of mentality that sends countries to war in the first place.
I understand that if you have to kill somone in order to protect yourself then you do what you gotta do, but to take such pleasure in taking life like that helps me understand how the mind must have to desensitize traumatic experiences, either that or these guys are just sick.

This type of mentality is the Mind of a Warrior. Its not pretty but neither is War. True warriors find glory in combat, victory, and survival. This has been a constant throughout history. So when you say you think they are sick you are just saying Warriors are disturbing. Warfare is disturbing its organized and systematic slaughter of other human beings. All War not just this One are like that. It takes a Warrior to fight these Wars and Not all people can be Warriors. Remember that if it wasn't for their sacrifices throughout history we wouldn't be where we are today.

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
This type of mentality is the Mind of a Warrior. Its not pretty but neither is War. True warriors find glory in combat, victory, and survival. This has been a constant throughout history. So when you say you think they are sick you are just saying Warriors are disturbing. Warfare is disturbing its organized and systematic slaughter of other human beings. All War not just this One are like that. It takes a Warrior to fight these Wars and Not all people can be Warriors. Remember that if it wasn't for their sacrifices throughout history we wouldn't be where we are today.

Like I said in my first post

That is the type of mentality that sends countries to war in the first place.

There would not be wars if it were not for warriors.

Mod Edit: Big Quote – Please Review This Link.

[edit on 28/3/2007 by Mirthful Me]

Originally posted by kleverone
Like I said in my first post

That is the type of mentality that sends countries to war in the first place.

There would not be wars if it were not for warriors.

No that is incorrect. There would not be wars if it were not for humans would be a more accurate statement. Contrary to popular opinion, mankind has always been a violent animal. We just hide it well sometimes.

Originally posted by pavil
No that is incorrect. There would not be wars if it were not for humans would be a more accurate statement. Contrary to popular opinion, mankind has always been a violent animal. We just hide it well sometimes.

Now you are incorrect, not all humans wish to war, you are trying to gereralize humanity. While we are animals by nature and possess the ability to war, it is that same humanity that allows us to generate the willpower and Knowledge to refrain from destruction. Its our evolutioin from animal to spiritual master in my opinion. Its up to us to either evolve to a peaceful race or most likely destroy ourselves.

Mod Edit: Big Quote – Please Review This Link.

[edit on 28/3/2007 by Mirthful Me]

Originally posted by kleverone
While we are animals by nature and possess the ability to war, it is that same humanity that allows us to generate the willpower and Knowledge to refrain from destruction. Its our evolutioin from animal to spiritual master in my opinion. Its up to us to either evolve to a peaceful race or most likely destroy ourselves.

To each there own I suppose.

I just point out that never in our history have we been a peaceful race for an extended period of time. War has been with us as long as writing has and probably longer. We have had millions of years of evolution and still have not worked the violence out of our system. I don't expect a sudden turnaround.

Originally posted by pavil
To each there own I suppose.

I just point out that never in our history have we been a peaceful race for an extended period of time. War has been with us as long as writing has and probably longer. We have had millions of years of evolution and still have not worked the violence out of our system. I don't expect a sudden turnaround.

I totally agree with you on that aspect. We have never truly been a peaceful race, but I do believe that we are evolving to that. I believe that the process itself takes time. I do see your point, please don't get me wrong. I believe that I am referring to what we are capable of and you are referring to what we actually are.

edit-sp

[edit on 27-3-2007 by kleverone]

Yes, thank you mirthful. I can go along with any discussion about anything but the first time a person makes the Nazi/Hitler comparison, that person has lost all credibility to me.
Its funny though, i never new that they actually had a name for that "Goodwins Law" LoL

Originally posted by Mirthful Me
If any member has issue with a post, I suggest using the ATS Complain/Suggestion Form.

If you are not already, I suggest you familiarize yourself with Godwin's Law.

I would appeal to all participants to post within the Terms & Conditions Of Use.

Thanks.

[edit on 27/3/2007 by Mirthful Me]

Originally posted by kleverone
We never truly been a peaceful race, but I do believe that we are evolving to that. I believe that the process itself takes time. I do see your point, please don't get me wrong. I believe that I am referring to what we are capable of and you are referring to what we actually are.

Agreed, I will cross my fingers.

Even if we don't agree on most things I still find people here on ATS that I can enjoy debating. That's what makes it a great place.

Cheers

Originally posted by deltaboy
Do you know what insurgents look like?

They look innocent.

thanks for the ATS vote.

insurgents don't run. they don't scramble from their car in terror. if they do move it's to reposition, but how can you watch a man get out his car and run, be gun downed, and then claim he's an insurgent.

i could see if he got out and tired to detonate heself, but he didn't. this is what usa has been doing to iraqi civilians for 6 years and who knows when it will stop.

if anything this video should show people how the war with iraq is wrong.

Mod Edit: Big Quote – Please Review This Link.

[edit on 28/3/2007 by Mirthful Me]

Originally posted by kleverone
Like I said in my first post

That is the type of mentality that sends countries to war in the first place.

There would not be wars if it were not for warriors.

It would be more accurate to say, there would be no wars, if not for Governments and Rulers.

Warriors do not start wars, they step up to bat when no one else will. Rulers start wars, to further their agenda.


[edit on 28-3-2007 by Nicotine1982]

Originally posted by Nicotine1982
It would be more accurate to say, there would be no wars, if not for Governments and Rulers.

Warriors do not start wars, they step up to bat when no one else will. Rulers start wars, to further their agenda.

If that be the case then what you are saying is that the warriors are simply pawns and not intellignet enough to detemine which wars they should be fighting and which ones they shouldn't. Its a touchy subject which I believe to be a horrible catch-22. So to say that there would be no wars without Governments and rulers doesn't excuse the warriors ability to determine whether or not he should follow those orders. I believe its why the miltary breaks down these teenagers and brainwash them into beleving that the govt is perfect and they should never question an order. Maybe they should start questioning a little more. Its not unpatriotic, despite what you may have heard.

I see what your getting at, but I think you may be over-simplifying the situation a bit.

While you cannot blame a soldier for the war he is engaged in, it would make sense that you could blame him for choosing to follow orders and participate right? Well, not really. A military force is not a collection of individuals, it is a single entity. The entire force must work together, or it doesn't work at all. If a soldier does not agree with his orders, follows them anyways, to the extent that his oath requires. The argument can be made that a person must be wicked to volunteer for this type of service, when his country is engaged in such an ugly situation. But the fact is that the people who enlist, for the most part do so out of love and respect for their country.

(think about your brother or sister, if they did something you knew was wrong, and someone was coming after them for it, would you try to help/protect your family, even though you didn't agree with them?)

I did not enlist because I didn't feel like that was the best way for me to serve my country, and because I didn't agree with the war. But that in no way means that I do not respect those who are in service. The men and women who make up the Army, Navy, and Marines, (and to some extent, the Air Force ) all deserve your respect, even if you do not agree with them, or their orders.

Respect doesn't have to be absolute. It just means to give them the benefit of the doubt and respect them until there is reason not to. It is different to say that Private Charles Graner Jr. was a monster because of his actions at Abu Ghraib, then to say that some soldier is a monster due to a video that presented no information about the situation it BRIEFLY documents.

All I'm trying to say is that your resentment, while justified, is misdirected. The soldiers are not doing anything that warrants contempt.

(edit to add)
I would like to take a moment to stick up for "the other side" here for a moment to add that I don't think Godwin's Law really applies here. Since we were discussing whether or not the US was engaging in activity that could only really be described as "Nazish". I do agree though, that coming right out and calling anyone a Nazi is inappropriate and counter-productive to a civil conversation.

[edit on 28-3-2007 by Nicotine1982]
(also edited for spelling)

[edit on 28-3-2007 by Nicotine1982]

[edit on 28-3-2007 by Nicotine1982]

Originally posted by Nicotine1982
While you cannot blame a soldier for the war he is engaged in, it would make sense that you could blame him for choosing to follow orders and participate right?

First of all let me say that my hat is off to you for serving in our military. I don't want to disrespect all of our troops who are in the middle east or anywhere else, what I have a problem with is the way these kids are taking such pleasure in killing these people like they are playing Grand theft auto! I understand having to deal with insurgents who fire upon you first but bragging about filling a human being with 30 rounds is very disturbing to me.


Also to address your earlier statement regarding having to follow orders or the system won't work. To that I say then that the system is flawed and needs to be addressed. I think that soldiers should be allowed to take a vote if they wish to leave our coutry to fight in a war. IMHO

Originally posted by kleverone
Now you are incorrect, not all humans wish to war, you are trying to gereralize humanity. While we are animals by nature and possess the ability to war, it is that same humanity that allows us to generate the willpower and Knowledge to refrain from destruction. Its our evolutioin from animal to spiritual master in my opinion. Its up to us to either evolve to a peaceful race or most likely destroy ourselves.

The beast within or our predator nature is always there waiting to come out. Not everyone can be a Warrior, but any human thrown into the right situation will kill or injure others. We are violent creatures.

Mod Edit: Big Quote – Please Review This Link.

[edit on 28/3/2007 by Mirthful Me]

Originally posted by Spawwwn
insurgents don't run. they don't scramble from their car in terror. if they do move it's to reposition, but how can you watch a man get out his car and run, be gun downed, and then claim he's an insurgent.

i could see if he got out and tired to detonate heself, but he didn't. this is what usa has been doing to iraqi civilians for 6 years and who knows when it will stop.

if anything this video should show people how the war with iraq is wrong.

Insurgents in Iraq and the taliban in Afghanistan are quite capable of running away. Most of them are not stupid or suicidal. Often they perform hit and run tactics, aka guerilla warfare. They strike and then they run away. Usually we catch up to them and they die, but they do run away.

[edit on 28/3/07 by MikeboydUS]

Mod Edit: Big Quote – Please Review This Link.

[edit on 28/3/2007 by Mirthful Me]