What Melted Cars 7 Blocks Away From WTC

Tom Bedlam, yes I said a few pages back vehicles had been moved, I really don't think anyone disputes that.
Sorry I have not came across any other photos of the truck above.
You see to me the damage to the door does not look like it has been struck with a solid object. To me the door skin looks molded inwards along the door post to the handle and appears molded to the inside of the door frame.
So if thats the case it must have taken an enormous amount of pressure, the same for along the bottom of the door frame, the skin of the door has a nice roll inwards
So I don't know this is all conjecture on my part.

Ok, I only read the first and last parts of the thread, and the Twietmeyer stuff someone posted had that laughable "propagation analysis" crap (from Twiet, not the poster) trying to rationalize how they burned in the lot. (hint...RF pulses diffract around edges, they don't radiate in a straight line like that)

Anyways, on the round dent, yeah, I can sort of see it but a big overpressure would have scalloped the whole vehicle. I don't see that on other vehicles in the lot, either, some of them still have some of the glass intact, for example. The cop car in the very first post for example still has the glass intact in the back.

Also, a big overpressure wave would have done a lot of glass damage to buildings in the area. I've never really looked at many photos of the aftermath critically (911 is not a hot spot for me). Were the windows blown out for blocks? With conventional explosives, they would be, with that sort of denting.

I think maybe the truck was hit with something large and smooth and just dented in that way without tearing. If it had been something edgy it would probably have torn the metal.

Originally posted by Tom Bedlam
Ok, I only read the first and last parts of the thread, and the Twietmeyer stuff someone posted had that laughable "propagation analysis" crap (from Twiet, not the poster) trying to rationalize how they burned in the lot. (hint...RF pulses diffract around edges, they don't radiate in a straight line like that)

Anyways, on the round dent, yeah, I can sort of see it but a big overpressure would have scalloped the whole vehicle. I don't see that on other vehicles in the lot, either, some of them still have some of the glass intact, for example. The cop car in the very first post for example still has the glass intact in the back.

Also, a big overpressure wave would have done a lot of glass damage to buildings in the area. I've never really looked at many photos of the aftermath critically (911 is not a hot spot for me). Were the windows blown out for blocks? With conventional explosives, they would be, with that sort of denting.

I think maybe the truck was hit with something large and smooth and just dented in that way without tearing. If it had been something edgy it would probably have torn the metal.

So what heated, warped, and bent the ladder down on this fire truck.
graphics7.nytimes.com...


[edit on 26-3-2007 by ULTIMA1]

Originally posted by ULTIMA1
So what heated, warped, and bent the ladder down on this fire truck.
graphics7.nytimes.com...

What an interesting photo! I wish I could look at it in more detail, maybe a few closeups.

I see painted structures at the point that it's starting to bend, and the red paint is intact.

What I can see of the metal in the bent area, it's shiny and not blued, dulled, or darkened, and matches the straight bits in terms of color and finish.

I'd say something very very heavy fell on the end of it. It's probably aluminum, and just deformed instead of snapping. Nothing looks like it got that hot in the photo.

Originally posted by Tom Bedlam
What I can see of the metal in the bent area, it's shiny and not blued, dulled, or darkened, and matches the straight bits in terms of color and finish.

No discoloration? Are we looking at the same picture?

Anyway, I do agree with you somewhat. It does look like the rusted part in the front might actually be a floor truss. I didn't look long at the photo in question.

Edit: Interesting. I wish I could see it better but the ladder also looks like it became rust colored. What would cause the aluminum to rust (I know aluminum doesn't rust, it was a retorical question)? If it's not rusty colored, then it is burnt. But it definately is discolored.

[edit on 3/26/2007 by Griff]

Originally posted by Griff

No discoloration? Are we looking at the same picture?

Anyway, I do agree with you somewhat. It does look like the rusted part in the front might actually be a floor truss. I didn't look long at the photo in question.

Edit: Interesting. I wish I could see it better but the ladder also looks like it became rust colored. What would cause the aluminum to rust (I know aluminum doesn't rust, it was a retorical question)? If it's not rusty colored, then it is burnt. But it definately is discolored.

Well, there is a slightly browner area at the curve, but that's also right over that red painted support right below it.

Then it looks fairly shiny (except there seem to be bolts that rusted?) until you get to the very end where it's slightly brownish again.

Burned aluminum is sort of rough and whitish/silvery in color. I've never seen it turn brown. But here's a clincher. There's a yellow printed label in the channel of the ladder near the left end of the bent part. I would have expected that to burn off if it was melted.

Originally posted by Tom Bedlam
There's a yellow printed label in the channel of the ladder near the left end of the bent part. I would have expected that to burn off if it was melted.

Thanks for pointing this out. It shows me IMO that it was hit and not melted, buckled, etc. Not the yellow but look at the red spot on the ladder. It's dirrectly above an area of the truck that is red. This to me says that it is impact damage and the red is from the paint of the truck. But, I could be wrong.

Edit: I think I am wrong. It looks like it is the "holder" of the ladder which would be red.

Edit 2: The red spot is above the truck...not below.

[edit on 3/26/2007 by Griff]

[edit on 3/26/2007 by Griff]

1. The police car with the back part in full colours and the front burned and oxidized to a rusty tint :
I suppose the front burned out with that right front door open, then the towing company people closed that door when towing it away.
That explains the "strange" sharp boundary line between burned door and pristine condition of the back part.
2. The deformed NYFD ladder truck is probably hit in the personnel basket at the end of the ladder by some heavy debris, bending it down in an arc from the point where it is supported by the painted red, quite heavy support strut.
3. A possible explanation of the strangely dented door could be the use of a motorized small bulldozer, with its shovel bend down. That way, the shovel would form that dent when used to push that car aside.
Remember, lots of emergency personnel were in a hurry to clean the streets for the heavy cranes etc, brought in fairly early, to aid by rescue efforts to remove heavy debris from areas where they expected survivors were trapped under beams and other heavy steel columns.
And the sheet metal used for doors and other passenger compartment parts are not at all as strong anymore as 40 years or more, ago.

But we also saw some footage of burning SUV's and sedans in strange places, f.ex. under overhanging broad structural parts of buildings, where there was no burning debris to be seen on these streets, but the cars were ablaze. Btw, these photographs were taken shortly after the collapses of the South Tower and then the North Tower.
The cars were still in their original parked position, clearly.
The overall lighting in these pictures was very dark, with lots of smoke hanging above, and an overall impression as if the dust clouds were still present, blocking almost all of the sunlight.

We are used to discuss subjects in a spirit of courtesy and mutual respect, please abstain from vitriolic criticism, and show some respect.

Since you are an engineer and scientist, I have something for you to chew on :
www.studyof911.com...
Interpretation of Seismic 9/11 charts from LDEO, compared to a NIST photo time stamp, time stamps from NIST and LDEO do not compare to the official collapse times.

Let me know if you can counter my facts with some solid response.

NIST, the institute which is researching the effects which the collapses of 3 hi- rise buildings on 9/11 will have on any safety measures to be implemented on all regulations for present and future hi-rise buildings, is clearly trying to fit unpleasant data into their own explanation for the collapse of WTC 7.
Both NIST and LDEO are government institutions.
Up till now, no one from any of these institutes have come forward to counter my facts.
Perhaps you could aid them?

It should not surprise anyone who can read between the lines of their reports, that NIST still has not come forward with any new regulations based on their own reports.
While such new regulations would seem to have a level of utmost emergency, based on the fact that no hi-rise steel buildings have collapsed totally, before.

Btw, I have a former colleague, who is dyslectic, but is considered one of the leading researchers in his field.
That shows, that spelling and redaction of someones texts is not a very solid proof of his intelligence, so be careful in ridiculing anybody online, solely based on his writing style and typos.
You could be surprised when you learn who you are ridiculing.

WE want the addresses of below photo's, and contact with the owner of the numberplate !

All images were posted Sept 14 and 15, 2006 at Studyof911Board, in this thread :
www.studyof911.com...
Please read the posted texts by Bsbray and ThichHeaded also.

There is something which strikes me as unbelievable in this below photo.
NOT the burning cars, but the lack of lush, green leafs on the front tree branches.
Remember, this photo was shot at nine SEPTEMBER, the foliage should be in full existence in my opinion.
What caused the foliage to shrink and dry on the first, but not so on the second tree, which is NEARER to the burning cars?
Was the front tree nearer to the collapses and eventual heat (or, who knows, other) radiation ?
And most IMPORTANT, why did the paper hanging IN the tree not burn, while the leafs clearly were exposed to a LOT of heat radiation?
And was that a burst of heat, or an extended time of heat?
I would say, when I observe the above questions of myself, that the heat or other radiation came FIRST, and THEN, seconds or minutes later, the paper got dumped in the tree by the shock- and air waves :



There was a lot of paper thrown this way in this photo, and others below, and it is not far fetched to suppose that also burning paper was included.
HOWEVER, did you ever try to burn an old car with just some burning paper? I did, and I couldn't. The rubber tires will not start burning from burning paper alone, you must add gasoline.
And how did the gasoline start leaking then in this photo?
It seems the firemen did rake a lot of combustible paper away from the periphery of the burning car, (seems to be an ambulance to me), to prevent it from igniting, the high, right front door and the right front tire can be seen right and left of the left, standing fireman in the below photo :




This below car is ablaze, with the rubber of its tires burning ferociously.
And two others are ablaze too.
But NOT the red van.
Can anybody tell me if this van is an old type, with no board computer steering ignition and fuel injection, and gasoline pump?
Why? Because it could be possible that a form of magnetic or electrical induction was at play on 9/11, which superheated all forms of coiled copper apparati in cars and other equipment, and fuel pumps have thin, long copper coils in their motors, and all other electrical motors in cars have the same coils ! :



Can someone well home in New York give me the address of this street corner ?
Park plaza perhaps, I can't understand the NY road signs letterings exactly.
How far is that from the two WTC Tower collapses ?







This car, (what brand?), is easily identifiable by its numberplate.
Can someone trace it back to its owner, and email him/her for details where it burned, and what police and insurance report was delivered when recovering the car?





And here below I suspect to proof myself wrong by stating in an above post of mine, that the police car was burning with its right front door open, it clearly wasn't, it was closed, if it was the same car ! :



and it seems to be burning the most at the front, where something, perhaps building debris, is partially laying under the hood.
How far away was this police car parked from eventual flying burning debris from a WTC Tower collapse?
To me it looks quite far away. Any New Yorker recognizes this spot?
There is a round plaquette on the right front of the white building on the opposite side of the road. Should be easily identifiable.



[edit on 28/3/07 by LaBTop]

Were the ones that burned running at the time the dust cloud went through?

Don't know why that would make a difference mind you, but ambulances, cop cars, a cop car burning in front of a car that isn't..just ruminating here.

The image with the car "clearly identifiable by it's numberplate" to me looks quite obviously edited.

From an artists standpoint, in any drawing, you establish where the light is coming from.

In that image, the fireman's entire form is in silhouette. The car itself is clearly dark. Light from any source other than the fire is diffuse and not strong. The fire is behind the numberplate.

If the number plate in that picture was genuine, you would expect it to be barely visible.

Compare the number plate with the car windshield. The majority of light is hitting the windshield in the upper left corner. This is what you would expect also of the numberplate, which has a similar orientation in two dimensions.

There is no way that that numberplate should be the brightest point in that image, with a *uniform* brightness, no less.

Originally posted by LaBTop

Can anybody tell me if this van is an old type, with no board computer steering ignition and fuel injection, and gasoline pump?
Why? Because it could be possible that a form of magnetic or electrical induction was at play on 9/11, which superheated all forms of coiled copper apparati in cars and other equipment, and fuel pumps have thin, long copper coils in their motors, and all other electrical motors in cars have the same coils !

Ignition coil, electric windows, speakers, relay coils, heater fans....

If you want to ignore those, then you'd have to explain how the firefighter's radios still work, why the electronics all over Manhattan were undamaged etc. Transformers on poles. Landline telephones. Cell phones. The NYC power distribution grid. Did you see the helicopters dropping like flies?

Won't fit. Too many examples of undamaged electronics too close. Any pulse big enough to set the cars ON FIRE would have done a lot of other damage it didn't do. Twietmeyer is full of crap.

Even when EMPRESS was burning out all sorts of stuff on Navy ships, it never set anything on fire. It did short out speakers and CRT yokes like mad.

since I added a second edit to the "car ablaze", which is very important.

Yes, I found that also very strange, but, I can buy here a spray can, which you spray on both numberplates, and then police making speed violation photos will not see your numberplate, because the layer you spray on the plate does turn up as a kind of light reflecting mirror.
This happens when camera poles at about 3 meter high are taking photos of speed violators.
This picture is taken at knee height, obviously, and it seems a fast and expensive brand, and especially these owners buy this kind of spray here.
But I heard that it doesn't work so well after a few months, and then the plates reflect much less light, and appear a clear pictures.

Of course this could be wrong, and someone photo shopped that exact plate in there, to embarrass a person, who said he was somewhere else, but in fact was in New York with his girlfriend. And the photo shopper knew this, and played a dirty trick on the owner of that plate, or a myriad of other possibilities.

Btw, it seems the photo is taken with a tele lens, plus a flashlight, so, too far away to let the flash light do its work properly.
You can see the reflection of the flash, in the right front head light unit.

you already read that edit.
Ok, I do not like Twietmeyers reasoning too.
Give me a solid reasoning for the below, if you can.

But why, in the first photo with the leafless tree, is ALL the paper on the street NOT burning, but ONLY the cars?

If the cars were ignited by burning debris, the laws of statistic impossibilities would be on my side, and there would be spots of burning paper, or burned OUT paper laying around.
I do not know of burning debris with a deliberate mind, wanting to solely ignite cars, but no paper.

And again, try it yourself, you can't ignite a car with burning paper lightly strewn under it or beside it.
The flames will go out, and the car will not burn.

PS: of course the tree in the foreground could have been a dead tree.
But I have great doubt on that, we are talking about the most expensive district on earth, Manhattan, where every shop owner will phone the authorities immediately, when "his" tree is dead, and his neighbour one is vividly alive.

Originally posted by LaBTop


Btw, it seems the photo is taken with a tele lens, plus a flashlight, so, too far away to let the flash light do its work properly.
You can see the reflection of the flash, in the right front head light unit.

Yes, you can see a reflection, but there is no consistency with that and the numberplate.

Why is the numberplate so much clearer than the rest of the image, and with uniform brightness in an image where, for example, the fireman's reflective clothing is not reflecting?

Can we suppose, that if cars in above photos were parked outside the outer debris collapse circles, and they were still ablaze, that that is a strange effect?

Arson? Deliberately? But why?

That's why it is important to know the exact spots and addresses where these photos were taken.

Btw, the first photo could have a piece of burning debris landed between those cars, igniting the later landed, lighter paper pieces, making a lot of paper on fire, and that could have burned the tires and then the cars.

But still, what about the leafless tree, and the unburned paper in it?

The car's a ford, btw, you can see the logo in the center of the grille if you mess with contrast and brightness a little. Model and such, eh, I'm a girl, cars aren't really my thing :p

I agree, too many inconsistencies.
What effect would a proposed neutron bombardment have on cars?
And of course also on all the other equipment you mentioned.


Let's shovel all eccentric theories on a heap here, and try to find a reasonable reason for these burning cars.

I am trying to find a data base for USA number plates on line, but I expect you have to be a member or institution to gain access.
Any help with that?
I don't find it really important, but who knows who that plate could turn up to.

One more thing. The plate is vertical, the windscreen is under a sharp angle away from the photographer. The fire mens cloth were dirty from dust.
The fire man is spraying water on the fire on street level and on the side of the car. Not that it is of influence anyway for that strange looking plate.

Originally posted by LaBTop

But why, in the first photo with the leafless tree, is ALL the paper on the street NOT burning, but ONLY the cars?

If the cars were ignited by burning debris, the laws of statistic impossibilities would be on my side, and there would be spots of burning paper, or burned OUT paper laying around.
I do not know of burning debris with a deliberate mind, wanting to solely ignite cars, but no paper.

And again, try it yourself, you can't ignite a car with burning paper lightly strewn under it or beside it.
The flames will go out, and the car will not burn.

PS: of course the tree in the foreground could have been a dead tree.
But I have great doubt on that, we are talking about the most expensive district on earth, Manhattan, where every shop owner will phone the authorities immediately, when "his" tree is dead, and his neighbour one is vividly alive.

It's pretty odd. Although there are things that bother me more in the photos.

One, the paper will take some time to fall down compared to any burning fuel. So, I could sort of see how it could light off the cars, burn off the concrete, and then the paper fall unscathed. It doesn't seem likely, but it's possible.

However, there are things that don't fit. If the tree was green, anything that burned off the leaves would probably light at least some limbs on fire, and I don't see them smoking. Also, I'm seeing in some of the photos that there are unscathed (and unburned) cars next to ones that burned. Like the cop car with the other one behind it.

I don't attribute this to any sort of death ray/laser/particle beam/EMP either, because the radios weren't damaged, and Wall Streeters weren't jumping out of buildings when their computers all fried. Not to mention the legions of people fairly close to the buildings that video taped it, on MAG TAPE. That wouldn't have survived. So I think the EMP thing is dead. As for the tree, given a pulse big enough to fry it, you'd have had to hit it so hard the leaves would boil, even then they probably wouldn't fall off (I don't see any on the ground?) and the trunk/limbs would probably crack open and be steaming. I don't know of any way to just remove ALL the leaves and leave the small limbs intact.

Again, the cop car, it's burning but not the one behind it. Any sort of "death ray" would have been much less discriminating, IMO, and probably would have been more Gaussian, you'd see black, french fried, fried, toasted, scorched, warped, ok as you went out from the center. Not fried here, skip, fried there. The tree would have burned. In the cop car pic, in the background are lush green trees with all their leaves intact, right across the street to the right. Also, and I can't see the pics as I type this, dammit, aren't some of the flamers up under an overhang like a parking garage sort of thing?

Can't tell from the tree with paper pic, is it some small leaved tree and the leaves are covered in ash/concrete crap? Maybe it was green up under the funk.

Again, is it possible the cars that burned were running when the funk cloud went through? Maybe they just caught on fire when the engines got eroded out from the dust. Cops tend to leave their cars running, maybe some of these guys left the cars running and ran for it. I'd expect the radiators to clog, the cars to overheat, keep running with no water and maybe burn. All it takes is to get hot enough to melt a fuel line. That would explain the numbers of them burned up front but not in back.

Edit: The tree's just dead. Look to the right of the toilet paper tree..there are two other trees just like it with all the leaves on.

[edit on 28-3-2007 by Tom Bedlam]