Why Time Does NOT Exist!

reply to post by Pocky


Most people im afraid cant be expected to understand much about physical principles that govern our exsistance......that being said time is a physical construct used to measure a physical dimension just like width length height how can anyone possibly refute that time exists in this sence its been said at least 3 times in this thread that if time did not exist as a physical dimension in which we are in some way or another moving through then EVERYTHING WOULD HAPPEN AT ONCE OR NOT AT ALL

reply to post by Anonymous ATS


in what waywould everything happening at once lend credence to the multiverse theory..... (i assume you mean M-theory) in which there are dimensions beyond the 4 that we experience? If everything happens at once then it is already over or it never happened at all hard to imagin yes......but fact.....no even in the multiverse where things in different dimensions are occuring in parralel to our experience they are still happening in a physical dimension in which we are all moving and that dimension is labeled time a very real physical dimension

please note that when i say physical i mean physics and not that you can observe it with yur eye

reply to post by constantwonder


Time is a creation of spiritual beings. Remember that. Spiritual beings created time, we decided what the yardstick would be for it, and therefore we knew what too look for to know it took place. In the physical universe, the accumulation of particles is proof enough that time takes place. As is the case for the baby body transitioning to adult. It accumulates particles. It builds up in some form. The sun perhaps creates and shoots out a build up of energies on its way from one side of the planet to the other.

In the spiritual world here, our yardstick is life experiences. We work hard for things, we amass the barter to purchase the objects of our ultimate desires. It does not need be money, it can be any channeling of energies. The moocher is a child, because he has not amassed the life experiences of an adult. Experiences in themselves are an accumulation of particles. You can tell that time has taken place, as a spirit, by experiences.

Most ghost are stuck in time, they are stuck in incidents, they keep reliving something, because they are not amassing experience. To them, time is not taking place, if they are stuck in this time warp. When an excorcist comes along, or new residents come and rattle the cage, the ghost can perceive a change in the environment, they can tell that time is taking place, somebody has opened a door, somebody is talking, somebody is channeling their energies , their intentions, to speak to this being, they know that they are because, somebody else is telling them they are and they can be, somebody. That is how you release a ghost from it's haunting, you let him know that time is taking place, if he knows you know he is there, he can heed your words, and snap out of the time warp, because it is an abrupt disruption from the incident that was an imprint, not real time , taking place.

[edit on 31-7-2008 by Pocky]

reply to post by Pocky


WHOA......... no offence but time is a creation of spiritual beings >> while im not going to refute the existance spiritual things this isnt the place for that arguement time is a physical i repeat physical measurable dimension lmao

I think it is easy to demonstrate that time exists as a dimension, in that all three dimensional references are based on objects that are constantly in motion. The reference of any point in space depends on identification of objects that can be physically observed. As time passes, all objects move, so that the three dimensional references have to shift as the objects around any point in space move. The locations of all points of space are therefore not only tied to three dimensional references, but specific points in time as well. To prove that a point in space never changes, then one would have to prove that space is static. While the concept of static space exists in mathematics, as does time, the evidence of the existence of static space is not nearly as strong as the evidence of the existance of time as a dimension.

I would go even further and assert that time also exists as a factor of force in the world, that all of matter is interconnected either directly or indirectly, and therefore all of matter is tied together in motion. As has been clearly demonstrated, the world moves in a sinesoidial pattern, all bodies of matter vibrating at specific frequencies. It makes sense that all of these frequencies are interconnected as all matter is interconnected, and that these vibrating frequecies collude to create a dimension of force known as time. In this way space is warped.

Now if pure static space exists, somewhere out there in the universe between galaxies, Then in that static space, time would not exist, nor matter or energy.

I don't have time for a lengthy response right now as I'm getting ready for work. A few of you should really check into using google to search on this topic. There are plenty of peer reviewed articles out there that talk about the non-existence of time and how are views of time are woefully wrong.

Here are a couple sites to start for anyone too lazy to bother researching themselves.

discovermagazine.com...

www.journaloftheoretics.com...


I would like to brush up when I get home on why this whole line of thinking that everything would occur at once if time didn't exist is wrong. Feel free to think about why it would be wrong or try and effectively persuade me on why everything would occur at once. I thoroughly enjoy discussing this topic with everyone here, and hopefully we can eventually all reach an agreement or possibly learn something new. See you in eight hours!

reply to post by Pocky


Have you ever seen the film Lassie, come home?
Every afternoon at four o'clock she would wait for her young "master" to come out of the school.

It's a true story insofar many animals really do have an in-built "clock".
Now I respect animals the same or more than I do humans, I am sorry (but not terribly so) to say. I don't like comparing them to humans. But I have the feeling that they do not fit the usual (human) definition of "spiritual" beings.

What is it, then, that makes them feel a certain urge at a recurring hour of the day?

The way science has become a perversion today I doubt Government
guide lines would allow the curriculum to be taught.

reply to post by poet1b


"Time" is the very stuff we are MADE of.
That's what makes most - not all! - of the discussions about, and physical (i.e. "scientific") research into, the "real" or "essential" nature and (non) existence of time as ultimately futile as they are deeply fascinating.

The fact is that living beings perceive "time".
They perceive it spontaneously, no special "training" is required; it's in-built.
And perception is everything.
(Which also means that, by changing the mode of perception you can, up to a point, influence your perception of time - perhaps even transcend it. I am sure of that. But to transcend something naturally implies that here is a "something" that has to be transcended.)

BTW: well said, Poet1b.






[edit on 1-8-2008 by Vanitas]

You mean rather than spout our own theories, we should do some research on the subject? Where is the fun in that? I thought I already knew it all.

Umm, I agree that time does not exist as a physical entity, but niether does force. Something like gravity doesn't exist as a physical entity either.

I like research, sounds like fun. I found this article on canonical physics.

www.canonicalscience.org...

"Human experience is based in the existence of an arrow of time. Engineering, history, and others sciences as chemistry, biology, or cosmology are firmly based in that arrow. Still, since Newtonian epoch, the physical laws are formulated in a time neutral form, with the thermodynamic arrow of time –the celebrated second law– unjustly relegated to a phenomenological level.

( the second law is not violated
We do not know any experimental violation of the second law; in contrast to the limited validity for the laws of electrodynamics, Newtonian mechanics, or special relativity, the arrow of time is one of our best-tested laws of nature."

This is an excellent web site in my opinion. Hope you enjoy.

Originally posted by StellarX

Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII

Well, in my case there have been a handful of times that, yes, I saw a detailed, specific image of a future event. Like a video. Not all the times, though, sometimes it was not. But, in 37 or so years since the first time, I have had around half a dozen very accurate ones.

What's the 'hit/miss' ratio and has this allowed you to affect change or positive changes? Is it beneficial, warnings or just glimpses of larger events , wars, devastation etc, you have no control over?
Stellar

I cannot tell when I have a dream whether it is or is not just a dream. I have likely had thousands of dreams in that time. Only when the event starts to play out do I learn that a dream was precognitive. The few I have had are exact though. They are like a video, photo, etc. So, for those ones, my ratio is 100 percent. And no, it has not allowed me to do anything. I can only say that for the most part, the scenarios seen have been trivial, insignificant events.

As I see it (not always but often enough ), "time" is actually a misnomer for various phenomena, such as duration etc.
That's what makes the discussions about what is essentially measurement "existentially" irrelevant.

That's all I wanted to add. I should've done it in the first place, but it's too hot for me to think - as you can see...

Gotta go and do lunch.

reply to post by Mysteri


Actually, physicists have more or less come around to your view of things--which is the view Eastern Mystics have held for millenia. They understand now that time is totally relative and is bound up with space, which itself is bound up with matter. That means all is one. A field of energy that manifests itself as matter in certain locations relative to the participants who experience it. Thus time is totally conceptual, and does not exist as a law of some kind. From here you get into the idea that the universe is actually synchronous (ie: there is no cause and effect because there is no time), and we would be able to see that if our senses were expanded to go beyond the scope of this 3-d reality.

Here's something I wrote recently that illustrates a bit better:

The essential trait of a synchronous world is the absence—to one extent or another—of the anchoring concept of time (and thus causality). An exclusionary focus of the mind is needed to shut synchronicity out, and most humans are endowed with this. By exclusionary focus, I mean the ability or tendency to isolate one idea without also—at least in the shadows at the sidelines—understanding or seeing how an infinite number of other ideas can also flow synchronously to and from that central idea in all directions, and vice versa—the conclusion being that all is one. The exclusionary focus relies on the concept of time as a schematic for its operation. Our five senses, operating at normal levels, seem to confirm the existence of time when paired with this ability or tendency of the brain. When the ability to focus in an exclusionary way is lost, as it appears to be in schizophrenia, the mind is left to gaze in wonder, or, more often, fear and awe at the shadows of the synchronous movements of the real world/universe. As the ego, like the isolated idea, cannot survive in the synchronous universe, this also brings a loss of sense of the individual ego. The schizophrenic clings to the ego, however, with disasterous effects.

Here are some notes I made on the same subject, very rough:

Is the sense of expansion and interconnectedness which comes upon one when one gets a glimpse of higher dimensions related to, or even the same as, the feeling many have when glimpsing synchronicity at work? Is the nature of thought--conscious, superficailly rational and time bound--a function of these three dimensions? Higher dimensional thought would then be something like being able to hold a great number of contradictory concepts relating to one “zone” of thought in one's mind. The quantum physicist needs to do this to get a sense of the underlying reality that the particle wave duality points to. In the Tao of Physics, Capra points to the connection between the Eastern mystic's and quantum physicist's way of viewing the world when he quotes Ashvaghosha: “The Eastern way of thinking consists in circling around the object of contemplation…forming a many-sided, multidimensional impression from the superimposition of single impressions from different points of view.” (p. 159 Tao of Physics). Here “single impressions” would be what is seen and understood in standard 3-d thought. Combining multiple perspectives in relation to one idea will reveal that that single idea is itself a zone of thought that must be contemplated, as Ashvaghosha says, in a circular way. Heidegger’s hermeneutic method for investigating dasein might also be a useful as an extension of this idea—could it be a 3-d method for contemplating a concept in a higher dimensional way. The key difference being that Heidegger keeps the concept of time, since the hermeneutic progresses a bit like a corkscrew deeper into a concept with each turn around—although time is contained in a kind of tight loop, so in some sense castrated. Jiddu Krishnamurti seems to be pointing, without explicitly saying so, towards such a way of thinking. Attention, a word used frequently by Krishnamurti is a state in which judgment is held in suspension, and curiosity is maintained in a ever-sharp state, never saying a categorical “yes” or a categorical “no” to anything, and therefore not letting the mind shut down avenues of possibility. There may be a connection between this and the circular, higher-dimensional mode of thought.

Anyway, I think you're right about time. Wrong about physicists.



[edit on 1-8-2008 by Silenceisall]

reply to post by poet1b

You mean rather than spout our own theories, we should do some research on the subject? Where is the fun in that? I thought I already knew it all.

Nobody knows it all.

I like research, sounds like fun. I found this article on canonical physics.

It's not canonical physics, it's canonical theory. Emphasis on theory mind you. It's an interesting article, but I find it somewhat failing in many areas. I'll be more then happy to pick at it later, possibly in a separate thread on it's

Umm, I agree that time does not exist as a physical entity, but niether does force. Something like gravity doesn't exist as a physical entity either.

Great! I was under the assumption that you thought time did exist as a fundamental force of nature. That saves any further argument on the subject. Time as a force or as some unseen dimension doesn't exist, but it does exist as a conceptual thing that our brains measure through interpreting ticks. Like the cesium atomic clock, it's not measuring time, it's measuring ticks. How quickly those ticks occur and are counted is what we translate into time.

time is not a force it is a dimension that everything is moving through just like length width and height..............

from wiki......

In physics, the treatment of time is a central issue. It has been treated as a question of geometry. One can measure time and treat it as a geometrical dimension, such as length, and perform mathematical operations on it. It is a scalar quantity and, like length, mass, and charge, is usually listed in most physics books as a fundamental quantity. Time can be combined mathematically with other fundamental quantities to derive other concepts such as motion, energy and fields.

reply to post by sirnex



Actually it's canonical science, whose goal is to combine the disciplines of biology, chemistry, and physics. I would say the article I linked to was far more informative and far better written than the two articles you linked to.

I said that "I agree that time does not exist as a physical entity", NOT that time does not exist "as a fundamental force of nature". I would say that the second law of physics does establish that time does exist, and that force and vector are inextricably tied together, and that time is inextricably linked to all force. In fact, I also agree that the second law of physics should probably be the first law, because in reality no object is ever at rest, and ever at equilibrium.

reply to post by Vanitas


Thanks Vanitas.

I think you have a valid point here as well, and also others who look at time also through a metaphysical approach. Science derived its origins from philosophical approaches, early science from a Christian/Catholic point of view.

We really don't understand the passing of time, and there are many problems with current scientific theories of the nature of the world. I think the concept of synchronicity has some merits. Certainly everything vibrates at its own particular frequency, Tesla proved this very clearly, it would also make sense that time is not moving forward at a constant rate. In the narrow band that we consciously exist, time appears to be a constant, but it has been demonstrated that time can change, who know, some day it may be shown that time travel is also possible.

I think it might be plausible to equate decay or entropy as the result of the force of time.

Time is real enough, but what you don't understand in my opinion is the why of it. If the designer of this existence is the control, time is relevant in the sense that it is a measured unit but only really meaSURED BY THE CONTROLLER. We of course have tried to make our own measurement which works well enough.

Also, if time doesn't exist and according to your ball theory, why do we age
if time is not a measure. I believe time is set from point A to point B by the controller. Why does it seem lke as we get older time speeds up? Because it is, we have less time left because we are much closer to point b or our passing from old age. It is the same with the earth, time is speeding up or passing moe quickly because point B is rapidly approaching. Does that make any sense? I hope so, and just my theory to consider.

@poet1b

Ok, let's try a simple thought experiment here, perhaps laying it out will help a little. Hopefully.

First a recap. The concept of time evolved from the progression of the earths rotation around the sun. In recent years, this sense of time was refined to include the ticks (or oscillations) of the cesium atom, with one second equaling 1000 oscillations. What this means for the speed of light is for each 1000 oscillations of the cesium atom it will travel the length of 186,000 miles.

Hopefully your with me so far, it's pretty simple actually. On to the thought experiment.

We're going to use the second law of thermodynamics here to explain why a system goes from order to disorder using what I explained above.

Imagine a pool table spanning the length of 18,600,000, that's 10x the distance light will travel within 1000 oscillations of the cesium atom. We place our balls in it's orderly triangular pattern as usual and this will be a representation of the universe. Now, let's just not get into the whole mechanics of how a universe comes into being or what it's boundaries are, that's just way too confusing and no one has an answer for that. So, we take our stick (the great mover that gave rise to the big bang) and we smack it into the balls (the singularity). What happens? They obviously speed off at various angles. Now here comes the apparent disorder, as they speed of in different angles traveling at c, within 10,000 ticks of the cesium atom they reach the boundary of our mini pool table universe and bounce off at again, different angles until such a time that two angles will intersect causing the balls to bounce off of each other. As we know, without friction these balls will continue to do so for quiet a long time. The disorder comes from the fact that they will never ever come at rest in the triangular pattern again.

I hope this helps, if not then let me know what needs further explanation.

Time travel will never be possible because you can't create a localized "force" that will move all objects in the universe in a reverse direction that they are traveling. To do so, you would need something that spans the entire universe and could effect all matter instantaneously, something that would require more energy than the universe currently contains within.

@TH3ON3

Just as time is science's diety, the so called controller is religions diety. Both are scapegoats being used until such a time comes along that someone can explain the universe better.

We age not because of time, but because our bodies are still in development from birth, to infant, to child, to adult, to death. We say we age due to the rotation of the earth around the sun in it's cyclical pattern. We've agreed on a certain point within that cyclical pattern to represent the first day of a year and when our day of birth within that cycle comes around we say we have aged one year. Time doesn't make you age, nor do cyclical patterns, biological processes are what makes you age.

(EDIT) Just a quick note, the cesium atom doesn't oscillate at 1000 ticks, it was used just as an example.

[edit on 2-8-2008 by sirnex]