Calling all UFO peoples!! Your chance to explain what and why you believe!!

To you all who hold to the beliefs that there are UFO's, I respect your stance very much! However, the notion that these UFO's have been around for thousands of years is impossible to prove either way. Yes, there are cave paintings and legends and oral traditions and so on. But, that's it...just heresay from on and on. Maybe they have been here, maybe not..but until the most recent of times are we able to document anything at all really. By that I mean with a camera and verifiable eyewitness testimonies. Up until that point, it's all just stories that may or may not be true...BUT, no proof exists one way or another!

By that definition, the following are false:
1. Caesar was assassinated
2. Cleopatra ruled Egypt
3. Alexander the Great ruled a vast empire

There are no photos proving these events, and none of the witnesses can be questioned now, yet this somehow invalidates the events in your eyes? See the problem with applying this kind of reasoning? Also, as I mentioned, the accounts (photos, gun camera footage, etc.) of such craft, performing maneuvers that we were not capable of at the time (and in some cases since), ARE such evidence, and ARE backed up by RELIABLE eyewitnesses (unless you don't consider pilots, military officers, ex presidents, etc. "reliable").

Now, on to the more present of times. There are numerous accounts and pics/vids or unidentified flying objects, no doubt about that, but are they of alien origin?? It is my belief that the vast majority if not all, are technologies that our own humankind is capable of. Yes, the lights may actually be a propuslion system, doesn't make it alien. Yes, they may be seen visually and have no fear of us, still no proof exists of it being alien.
How's about this, using Ocham's Razor as a ground base for all things...the most simple of solutions is usually correct (paraphrased). That being said, sift through the unknown and unlikely to the known and more likely of scenarios.

I'd wager that the vast majority of such pics and vids are either deliberate hoaxes, or simple misidentifications... However, if even ONE is real, then alien visitation is likewise.

By all means, lets apply Occam's Razor. I'm sure many here will agree that I do in most UFO cases...or at least attempt to. Problem is, when the simple explanations don't fit the evidence, then Occam's no longer applies.

To apply Occam's, one must understand the aspects of it...
(necessity, workability, equality, re-use, and entities)
In the case of UFOs, "equality" is often an aspect overlooked by those looking to assign Occam's to a case. For example, this aspect basically means that a simple theory should not be preferred over a more complex theory if the (equal) evidence more correctly supports the complex theory, if applying Occam's correctly, and not as a cop-out....

A classic example of this would be the use of Occam's to say a MOGUL balloon was what crashed in Roswell. However, as the evidence is strictly to the contrary (i.e. I'll supply a mountain of it if you like), this preference of the simpler MOGUL theory would be an incorrect use and application of Occam's....

Of course, if you're so convinced this isn't a real phenomon, then why even be interested in the subject at all? It's far easier to tuck one's head in the sand and continue on knowing that humans are the only intelligent species in the Universe, and that the rest of it is simply a great waste of space....


[edit on 21-3-2007 by Gazrok]

Originally posted by Gazrok
A classic example of this would be the use of Occam's to say a MOGUL balloon was what crashed in Roswell. However, as the evidence is strictly to the contrary (i.e. I'll supply a mountain of it if you like), this preference of the simpler MOGUL theory would be an incorrect use and application of Occam's....
[edit on 21-3-2007 by Gazrok]

I'd really like a U2U of links to this info and pics etc what ever you have Gazrok as I want to educate myself and pose some questions based off the info and research I get from your mountain of evidence. Thanks EH.

Dave

Just remember....YOU asked for it...

www.abovetopsecret.com...
Part I can be seen here: www.abovetopsecret.com...
Part II can be seen here: www.abovetopsecret.com...
Part III, Section A can be seen here: www.abovetopsecret.com...
Part III, Section B can be seen here: www.abovetopsecret.com...
Part III, Section C can be seen here: www.abovetopsecret.com...
Part III, Section D can be seen here: www.abovetopsecret.com...
Part III, Section E can be seen here: www.abovetopsecret.com...
Part IV, Section A can be seen here: www.abovetopsecret.com...
Part IV, Section B can be seen here: www.abovetopsecret.com...

Let me try again to explain myself...it seems that has been misunsertood, ot maybe I just said it wrong!? I am in no way claiming that there are no UFO/Alien visitors that have or are or will come to earth. Furthermore, I refuse to bury my head in the sand on the issue..as Canada_EH put it very nicely, I wish to educate my self and all of us here on ATS. Yes, mathematically speaking, the odds are definitely in the favor of their being other life out there, no arguements here. However, are they visiting us?? Are they more or less intelligent than us?? More or less technologically evolved??? We, meaning me, us, and you....well, there's just no for sure way to know!!!

Now, as Doc Velocity pointed out, there is a serious lack of tangible evidence, I mean yeah, there's all kinds of talk, sightings of odd things, etc...but, as of today and this post we just do not know! I am open and objective to the notion of the possibilty of aliens visiting earth, but i have to side with the overwhelming probablility that we humans are capable of creating nearly all that we have seen in our skies!?

Again, I am very open to other thoughts....just want to point out that I am not denying the possiblity of it happening! But, so far I think we are just witnessing the occasional glimpse of technologies (maybe not even military) that are out there!

Peace, Mondo

My point is that there IS MORE EVIDENCE than just fleeting photos, vids, etc. You're making a blanket statement that the evidence isn't there...and as far as alien bodies or spaceships in the public eye, you're correct, but there is still a mountain of evidence that simply cannot be easily dismissed.

Frankly, it's out there and easier to find than ever given today's tech, but it is not the responsibility of UFOlogists or UFO enthusiasts to do the work for you. Most do it to educate themselves and while they enjoy sharing what they've learned, you'll have to look for their work to benefit from it.

I don't disparage you at all for not believing, that's entirely one's own perogative, however the blanket statement that there isn't any good evidence out there, is false, imho, so that's the point I take issue with and pointed out...

As many will tell you, I'm usually one of the first one's here to cry "foul" on a UFO account, IF there's a better, and more terrestrial explanation that fits the facts....but when the evidence is contrary to such explanations, then we have to expand our list of possibilities.

As for misidentifications, I can identify. I've grown up as a military brat. My father was first in the Army, then the Coast Guard, and now works for Lockheed on the Raptor project at the GA plant. I can identify most aircraft on sight, and am pretty used to identifying objects in the sky...enough to know how easy it is to misinterpret things one isn't familiar with. However, when a gal says she's been on a flying saucer, was shown a star map, and it matches a constellation she could never have seen, and one where some stars are only discovered years later, and in addition she correctly identified the COLOR of the stars before they were known....well, such evidence is REALLY cause for consideration....that maybe some of these crackpots aren't crackpots after all.....

[edit on 21-3-2007 by Gazrok]

Originally posted by Mondogiwa
OK,

Now before anybody gets heated up here, let me throw this out there! I do believe that there is the possiblity of aliens/UFO's, but then again....if they are so advanced, why would they let themselves be seen??? Why would they fly around with lights on????
Why deal with such a war-mongering society as ours??

My real question is this; What makes anybody think that these sitings are anything more than our very own technology??? Is it not an insult (although not intentional), to think that our brightest minds cannot think up, make, and experiment with technology that for all intents and purposes would seem alien to us??

As the infamous Darth Vader put it, "I find your lack of faith disturbing".

I want to hear what any and all of you think...AGAIN, I am open to ideas but have been around aviation (specifically military) a lot of my life, and have seen and heard of things that are way, way, out there!! But, they are real, and they are ours!!

Thanks for your time, Peace...Mondo

Happiness,
I think you may have posted before you meant to send the post, all that is here is my own quote so far.Peace, Mondo

Gazrok,
Listen man, I apologize for the blanket statement, you are right on that account! I tend to try to oversimplify at times, sorry. I use that broad statement and direct it towards the myriad of people who just cry wolf at every chance they get. I have no doubt that you and the majority of people here on ATS are a bit different than that. So, if I have discouraged any of you from posting/responding..please accept my apology!

I want to learn and educate and I think the two terms are not mutually exclusive! I just need something that resonates with me before I am swayed to think there is anything more to these alleged aliens than them being our own earthly creations.

I think it important to NOT underestimate our own intellectual and scientific abilities.....I think the great minds of the world have forgotten more than most of us will ever be able to learn!

Peace, Mondo

I have seen at least 5 UFO's with and without witnesses. No two siting's were the same in any shape size or form. Some were sited in the daytime, in broad daylight other's in the night. I find it incredible to think that anyone of them was man made.The first one i saw was when i was eight years old and i can remember it as if it was yesterday. It looked like the one from the film flight of the navigator. The kid's film from a few years back. Was smooth with no seem's.Same kind of shape like the one in the film. It came over the garden out of nowhere. Bent the branches over a bit on our apple tree, hovered over the grass about roof height and then shot up in sky at enormous speed. I ran up the garden, along the side of the house to try and see it from the road. No word of a lie it was a pinprick in the sky with what looked like a vapour trail. This was in broad daylight. No one believed us.. My childhood friend who was with me at the time i have long lost touch with.

Sorry Mondogiwa, still new to all this. My apologies

Having superior weapons never stoped the military from using them in the past.....Just look at Japan. They didn't even really understand all of the implications from what they were doing, but that didn't stop them. They wanted to wield the biggest club.

Our nature is to show off how great we are. In the past countries wouldn't hesitate to use superior weapons (The steel sword). Why kill our own people if there is a better way to do things (Iraq here and now)???? If you started cruising Iran and Iraq with UFO's showing that they are ours, what kind of statement would that make? They would all be on their knees yelling "Allah spare me"!!!!

Could it be we are scared to use superior weapons? If so, why?? What have we got to lose?

Either we know the technology, have them, and built them.

or

We have them but we don't know the technology or how to use it effectively as a super weapon.

We seem to be all over the globe with this fantastic technology, but why are we afraid to let the world know what we have? Because we don't know how it works?

Isn't the USA the biggest dog in the pack?

Originally posted by win 52


Isn't the USA the biggest dog in the pack?

yes - USA is in trouble. Check this out

Things are heating up people - Cynthia Mckinney
- she's mad as hell.
Maybe a revolution in America will release all your questions.

good to see your common respect for each other in this thread...

Originally posted by happinness
Sorry Mondogiwa, still new to all this. My apologies

Happiness, it's all good...used to happen to me all the time, blank post here then a double post there!! Anyway, thanks for the addition to the thread by the way.

Again, as far as the sightings go...I totally believe you all have seen the things you claim to see, BUT that means what?? I'll tell you what it means, it means that you have seen something that you cannot understand, or am I wrong here?? I am saying that yes, you see things in the sky perhaps....that does not make it alien, it makes it unidentified but not alien and therefore the possibility followed by the probability that it could be human made exists!!

Take this for a lehman's example....you are an aboriginal person in say the 1900's and all of a sudden you witness a tank cruising around your outback. Is it unidentified..of course because it doe not fit into your mental framework. You see a technology that cannot exist in your mind and you cannot begin to understand it...yet! Therefore you tell people who tell people who write stories and draw pictures...see where this is going!!??

Anyway, enough for now, gotta catch some sleep...Peace, Mondo

Originally posted by Mondogiwa
OK,

Now before anybody gets heated up here, let me throw this out there! I do believe that there is the possiblity of aliens/UFO's, but then again....if they are so advanced, why would they let themselves be seen??? Why would they fly around with lights on????
Why deal with such a war-mongering society as ours??

My real question is this; What makes anybody think that these sitings are anything more than our very own technology??? Is it not an insult (although not intentional), to think that our brightest minds cannot think up, make, and experiment with technology that for all intents and purposes would seem alien to us??

As the infamous Darth Vader put it, "I find your lack of faith disturbing".

I want to hear what any and all of you think...AGAIN, I am open to ideas but have been around aviation (specifically military) a lot of my life, and have seen and heard of things that are way, way, out there!! But, they are real, and they are ours!!

Thanks for your time, Peace...Mondo

OK im glad i finally have a chance to tell-all about what i believe.


Ok...so we've all seen video footage of ufo's and such ...and hoaxes of autopsies. what we havent seen is a single video being proved to be extraterrestrial spacecraft/beings.


fair enough.As long as there are humans in the universe ...there will always be skeptics and non-believers.

but here's what i believe.

UFO's/Aliens from dozens of different star systems have been visiting Earth for millions of years.Alot even stayed and settled here. call it immigration on a galactic scale lol.

i personally believe there are aliens among us all the time that look like you and me....i also believe there are some members on ATS that arent human as well...i mean why not? ..if a race of beings can travel hundreds of light years to different star systems then why cant they have the technology to hide themselves/blend themselves to fit in with us.

i have seen UFO's over airports,carnivals,sports events ...no one else ever seemed to notice ...but i did. i know the difference from a plane and "something else" lol . In fact im going to school for aircraft engineering for the USAF. so i definetly know a plane from a spacecraft.

now....i have no problem with aliens living amongst us...i just REALLY wish the truth would come out on a worldwide scale.


ALSO! ... if you look at the tech-rise in computers in the past 10 years ....you might be surprised to find out how fast we are advancing in computer technology.

google "Moore's law" for more info

now idk what other ppl think on this subject but i personally believe alien technology is responsible for modern day computer proccessors.

have u ever seen an actual proccessor? have u seen how tiny it is? yet so powerful ....powerful enough to control a boeing 747...yet small as your palm of your hand....yeah pretty impressive eh?

anyhow...your all welcome to your criticism and opinions about this...however it will not change my perspective on things.

nuthin but peace yall

-Mayan

Originally posted by Mayan2012
i have seen UFO's over airports,carnivals,sports events ...no one else ever seemed to notice ...but i did. i know the difference from a plane and "something else" lol . In fact im going to school for aircraft engineering for the USAF. so i definetly know a plane from a spacecraft.

Mayan,

Hey thanks for the reply!! The difference between a plane and something else is exactly my point. You saw something that was not a plane, yes!? But do you know what it was?? Do you know the technology that made it work?? Sit back for one second, and do not continue to make the same mistake that so many others do, "It did not perform like anything else I know of..must be alien." I understand and believe you may have seen what you claim.....BUT AGAIN (not inteded as yelling), seeing a flying craft DOES NOT mean it's alien.
And, Mayan..we share a background in aircraft then.....believe me brother, what you will learn in school is that what you once thought of as a spacecraft no longer applies, your definition is going to change soon. In fact, please try to tell me what the difference is while you are at it!! You viewed a craft, possibly lighter than air even. By your definition alone, did you see it come from space (that makes it a spacecreaft, yes)? And please oh please don't even begin to tell me that your naked eye or binoculars can differentiate a vehicle traveling in the upper atmosphere and traveling into space because it cannot be done by our feeble eyes alone. You saw what you assume to be a spacecraft, but in reality was a craft that you cannot identify is all. I don't claim to know what it was either...but the jump to it being alien, with no proof of the occupants just is not logical.

Oh, by the way, I DO think there are other species out there, just not hobnobbing all over our atmosphere as most people do. But, I am open to ideas once a verified and logical one that is contrary to the probability of them being our own, arises.

Peace to you as well, Mondo

[edit on 22-3-2007 by Mondogiwa]

Here's something I happened to thought of while in this debate. which by the way flies in the face of the gov't official stance: Exobiology, which a search reveals

exobiology.nasa.gov...

www.astrobiology.com...

among others.

I find it amazing the official explanation is "NO", while they dump money it.

In fact, the current theory on how life 'evolved' on this planet is due to the introduction of organic molecules from a comet. Which, means it probably came from somewhere else.


[edit on 3/22/2007 by bothered]

Originally posted by Mayan2012

ALSO! ... if you look at the tech-rise in computers in the past 10 years ....you might be surprised to find out how fast we are advancing in computer technology.
now idk what other ppl think on this subject but i personally believe alien technology is responsible for modern day computer proccessors.
have u ever seen an actual proccessor? have u seen how tiny it is? yet so powerful ....powerful enough to control a boeing 747...yet small as your palm of your hand....yeah pretty impressive eh?

Mayan, uhh yes I have seen them and understand theor technological relevance and wonder! Yet, history repeats and repeats itself again and again with wonders that are just like it. Do you think the harnessing of electricity was a grand discovery as well...not alien, right!? How's about the wheel...I'd saya bit more revolutionary at the time than the processor, right....not alien! What about plastics and alloys, which make processors possible....alien??
There are great inventions and technologies that are beyond most of us, but it's amazing to me how we always want to jump at the chance to hop up and down and claim, "Aliens did it, aliens did it", and base it on what???? Even if we could understand another species, why do people always think they could communicate with them?? Of the myriad of species on our own planet here, how many others can you communicate with?? Let's just take the, "Intelligent" ones such as Chimpanzees, elephants, dolphins, Orcas, Octopi.......only on the most basic command level can we even think we can communicate with some of them. And, we have been living with them for how long??

Again, Peace to you as well...see your post in a bit, Mondo

Just thought about this as well. Do any of you remember being told a thing or two in school that was NEVER going to be possible?? Only to find out thqt what was never to be possible is in fact now very commonplace. Memory metal applications, personal computers than can be held in your palm, play music, and be a phone.....iPhone anybody!!

The technology is way way out there, and not even in our own country alone! Go to China or Japan and look at what they are using for PDA's and cell phones....they blow ours away, why you ask?? Well, that's just an economic way for the U.S. companies to get as much cash as they can...they already have generations of cell phones wellbeyond what you may think. And yeah, that's a fact..even iPods are a minimum of 3 generations behind what the makers have. I have friends who work in design for companies such as Apple and they assure me that the technology is way beyond, but that the average person cannot even manipulate the current technology so the wait to release better stuff until we sort of catch up!!

Anyway, sorry to digress, but my point is that there are technologies in all areas that exists and we just can't understand them. Apply this stsement to a U.S. military/defense budget and you will begin to see why I believe there's sufficient means and moneys to support aircraft that we would not even begin to recognize or understand!

Peace to you my friends, Mondo

So, if I have discouraged any of you from posting/responding..please accept my apology!

Apology accepted, but nothing wrong with a lively debate...there is no animosity here...

I want to learn and educate and I think the two terms are not mutually exclusive! I just need something that resonates with me before I am swayed to think there is anything more to these alleged aliens than them being our own earthly creations.

Understandable, but keep in mind, if such craft were ours, and functioning at such capacities over 50 years ago, then logically, wouldn't at least SOME of that be now in the common private sector? It's been said that military blue and black projects are often 20-30 years more advanced than commercial, but over 50? That's a bit of a stretch...

I think it important to NOT underestimate our own intellectual and scientific abilities.....I think the great minds of the world have forgotten more than most of us will ever be able to learn!

I fully agree. I don't see the aliens as gods, etc. They're likely simply beings very similar to us, who've simply had an extra 1000 years or so to advance technologically. I mean, we've come from riding horses to putting men on the moon in around 100 years time, so I certainly won't disparage our own species' accomplishments. That said though, I also won't ascribe to blind arrogance in assuming that we're the sharpest crayons in the box, and ignore the idea that there just may be others out there who've got a few years worth of gadgets on us....

Gazrok,
I think we are not as opposite as the casual observer may think! I like your line of logic and thinking, I just vascillate on this topic a bit more I suppose. As far as your private sector point, I think we do see it all the time! I think it is very apparent in our society but just years behind, as you said. I think we always think of anything military as evil/death/war..but in today's day and age, most technologies are created outside of the miltary complex and then snatched up by the military for use with their own applications. It's simple really, let others do the groundwork for you and then steal it/buy it..whatever and put a privacy seal on it, right!

Anyway, I love the chat with you and your thoughts..I added you as a friend if that's cool, please feel free to do the same unless you want me as a foe!?

I love the debate and intellectual conversations, they help me learn...glad to hear there was no offense taken!

Peace, Mondo

yea i totally respect Everyone's thoughts,idea's and opinions about these things and i love reading about what other ppl have to say. Instead of just pondering thoughts in my head alone

yea i gotta admit ...i have never actually had proof ive seen a spacecraft....but then again. the places ive seen ufo's werent even close to an AF base.So maybe the things i have seen in my past are terrestrial top secret aircraft that the USAF have been testing. easy enough to believe especially since the SR-71 Blackbird was in development for over 20 years...and im sure they had testings quite often.....but why would the USAF have their new test aircraft fly around in public ....in plain view of everyone. it seems to me all that causes is more trouble for the government to cover it up...call it a waste of time lol when they have got acres and acres and ACRES of land out in USAF bases with TONS of military Airspace.

i Do know how fast we are advancing technologically.
i do know that within 10 years ALOT of things in our daily lives will have changed.

but. considering the fact that Nasa havent even completed building the new shuttle yet ....and considering the fact that Nasa is taking a VERY long time to complete the ISS..(the ISS is supposed to be completed this year / this month....but instead they are saying 2010.(because of the Space shuttle disaster a few yrs back i guess -_-).Anyhow..i think if the military DO have top secret aircraft using technology that crazy ....they should pass over that tech to Nasa For sure.

not like we are gonna need advanced tech aircraft in war.....we are already the most powerful nation in the world....it would be like using big ass swords ....against sticks lol

And if we ever have intergalactic wars in the future....so help us all

Peace guys

-Mayan

[edit on 3/22/2007 by Mayan2012]