Wiccans

Originally posted by Yarcofin
So I assume that "circles of protection", "banishing rituals", and so on are the first things you learn when you are studying such things? Kind of like putting on a seatbelt before you learn to drive for the first time, or taking a gun safety course?

Yep, in say the Golden Dawn system the Lesser Banishing Ritual of the Pentagram is the only Magick you are taught for the first 2 years or so.

Originally posted by w810i
anyways now that I have woken up. The idea was to cast a spell in hopes of bringing back a time in my life that was happy that has been lost.

I found a book that had a spell(s) in it for just such a thing.

that ?spell? found in a published book is most likely useless,

One is...as i understand it...supposed to only Write down
any spells they themselves have created in such a cryptic
way as to be known only to themselves...

One must create their own Unique "BOOK OF SHADOWS"

spells are created individually which utilizes the strong traits & characteristics only 'You' possess....
the ?spell you've happened upon ammounts to a 'Recipe'
(i.e.; fluff for consumption by the masses, imho)

Originally posted by thelibra
It sounds as if you are at one of those critical junctures in your life where you are begining to outgrow what you are religiously or spiritually comfortable with, but don't want to move into a bad place as a result of leaving. If I may offer you what I feel is probably the most important piece of advice I can give...

Write down everything you believe in. Make a list. Think hard about what you think "God" is, what happens when you die, what a soul is, if there's a soul, etc. Don't just copy down stuff out of the Bible or what your minister said, I mean really just sit down and, with no books, no one to ask, and no Google, write down what YOU believe.
It's okay to leave some questions with an "I don't know". In fact, this is critical to spiritual growth--the persuit of those unknowns. But try to answer as many as you can, as best you can...

...then, when you have your list, start researching what other religions believe, and see which ones match your own personal beliefs as closely as possible.

Then, take the ideas you gain from the religions you read about, consider them in regards to what you believe, and re-make your list. Then start looking again.

After a few years you will start becoming more and more comfortable with your spirituality, and when you finally are ready to join a particular religion, you'll know why you did

My parents forced me to go to church when I was a kid, but I outgrew that about 7 years ago. I feel the same way you do... it's too indoctrinated, cult-like. People just follow along without even really understanding what they are doing/saying.

So I guess you could say I'm past that "critical juncture", and now I'm just kind of floating around the 'spiritual world' aimlessly, experimenting and learning, and looking for a place to settle.

My main problem is that I actually have a lot of conflicting beliefs. For example, I hope that there is an afterlife, and I have read a lot about OOBE/Astral Projection but I have never had one. And on the other hand, since I've had no direct experience with it, I sometimes fear that there may not be anything after death. I also bounce back and forth from thinking there may be a Creator God of some sort, to thinking more in terms of just evolution.

The problem is that I took an online quiz similar to your idea of writing down all of your beliefs..... I took the quiz a while and it ended up saying my best match was Lutheran (a form of protestant Christianity), which is exactly what my family is. I don't understand how that was my best match, because I don't like/agree with it at all anymore. Perhaps that's why I'm so confused .

Hmm I took the quiz again and this time the results turned out differently:

1. Theravada Buddhism (100%)
2. Unitarian Universalism (83%)
3. Mahayana Buddhism (77%)
4. New Age (76%)
5. Nontheist (72%)
6. Neo-Pagan (70%)
7. Christian Science (Church of Christ, Scientist) (67%)
8. Scientology (67%)
9. New Thought (66%)
10. Secular Humanism (65%)

Here's the quiz if anybody else wants to take it:
www.beliefnet.com...

From reading all those descriptions, they all seem to have a lot of good stuff that I agree with. But at the same time they all have things that I strongly disagree with or that I'm unsure of. :S 100% Buddhist seems way too high though. lol.


The last real 'religion' I kind of settled into was a Gnostic kind of thing for about 2 years.

[edit on 10-3-2007 by Yarcofin]

Originally posted by Yarcofin
My main problem is that I actually have a lot of conflicting beliefs. For example, I hope that there is an afterlife, and I have read a lot about OOBE/Astral Projection but I have never had one. And on the other hand, since I've had no direct experience with it, I sometimes fear that there may not be anything after death.

I think everyone who really puts thought into it has this same conflict. I personally find reincarnation to be the most likely form of afterlife, applying science. Energy cannot be created or destroyed, only transferred. My "soul", so to speak, is energy in some form or another. It only makes sense that it would pass through other living things at some point. What I'd prefer is a place like heaven, but if it's not there, then hell probably isn't either. So, I live my life as if I were trying to get into heaven, but I leave my expectations at reincarnation.

Either way, I'm unlikely to care once I'm dead, because I'll either be in a new life, or a new world, or I'll simply cease to exist.

Originally posted by Yarcofin
I also bounce back and forth from thinking there may be a Creator God of some sort, to thinking more in terms of just evolution.

Who says both can't be a factor?

One of the things that truly angers me about Anti-Evolutionist Christians is their arrogant approach to God, and their assumption that God is so ignorant as to have not accounted for Evolution during creation. An all-knowing, all-powerful creator HAS to have at least thought of evolution, and probably countless other things science hasn't even discovered yet. I get furious when certain Christians tell me that God made everything "perfect" at first, and then refuse to believe evolution could be within God's plan for perfection, because it's like watching someone slap their own parent right in the face.

But that's my own personal view. I think both are factors in the advancement of life.

Originally posted by Yarcofin
The problem is that I took an online quiz similar to your idea of writing down all of your beliefs.....

While that's a good place to start, the problem is that it goes right back to someone telling you what you believe, or should believe. What might work a little better is making that list first. Know thyself. Then start reading summaries on as many religions as you can, and each one you find interesting, do more reading on. By the time you figure out what you are, there will be very little question as to the validity of the results.

Originally posted by Yarcofin
I took the quiz a while and it ended up saying my best match was Lutheran (a form of protestant Christianity), which is exactly what my family is.

Nothing wrong with Lutherans in my book. They have different religious beliefs than me, but it's still a very positive religion with very strong community ties. On a side note, if you haven't ever listened to "A Prairie Home Companion" on NPR by Garrison Keillor, I really recommend it. It's a weekly radio variety show, and he talks about a town called Lake Woebegon where almost everyone in it is Lutheran. It's very funny, dry witty humor.

Originally posted by Yarcofin
I don't understand how that was my best match, because I don't like/agree with it at all anymore. Perhaps that's why I'm so confused

.

You might ask yourself why you don't agree with it anymore. Is it because you don't like the beliefs, the congregation, or the family? That can sometimes be very hard to distinguish between.

Originally posted by Yarcofin
1. Theravada Buddhism (100%)
2. Unitarian Universalism (83%)
3. Mahayana Buddhism (77%)

Sounds like you need to get some book learnin' on Buddhism, to be honest. If nothing else, read about the different types of Buddhism, see if any of them interest you, and if any of them do, read further. You might find yourself pleasantly surprised.

Originally posted by Yarcofin
Here's the quiz if anybody else wants to take it:
www.beliefnet.com...

I think I will... Interesting. According to the quiz, my views are as follows:

1. Neo-Pagan (100%)
2. New Age (91%)
3. Mahayana Buddhism (84%)
4. Unitarian Universalism (77%)
5. Liberal Quakers (76%)
6. Theravada Buddhism (72%)
7. Jainism (71%)
8. Reform Judaism (64%)
9. Sikhism (63%)
10. Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (61%)

I've never even heard of Jainism, and I'll definitely have to read more on Sikhism, since I know so little about it.

I wasn't entirely happy with the quiz, as there were several questions where my answer couldn't be adequately compartmentalized, and I had never really considered the "importance" of each issue. So, while the test gave me some new things to think about, and certainly some new reading material, I still wouldn't call myself a Neo-Pagan or a New Ager.

Originally posted by Yarcofin
From reading all those descriptions, they all seem to have a lot of good stuff that I agree with. But at the same time they all have things that I strongly disagree with or that I'm unsure of.

Ah, you've reached quite possibly the most important conclusion of all: no religion will ever truly meld 100% with your beliefs unless you derive your beliefs from the religion. However, this is not a bad thing. If you truly need a congregation of some sort to satisfy you religious cravings, then simply choose the one that you can compromise the most with. If you don't need a congregation, then don't choose a religion. Figure out what you believe and simply worship in your own way.

I too, was intrigued with 'spell casting' many years ago......and I 'experimented' with a few simple spells that I'd found in some books on the subject.

After gathering my 'toolkit' as someone has called it, I followed the instructions for protection, then I chose to cast what was called a 'money increase' spell.......harmless fun, right? Just to see if it would work.....

Two days later, while standing at the corner of a busy intersection, my jaw dropped! Blowing down the middle of the street, right in the midst of traffic......several wads of bills, rolling and fluttering along!! ( Practically beckoning !) A friend with me almost stepped out into the street to chase after the cash, but I grabbed her sleeve with, "Are you crazy? Do you want to get killed?"

I believe it was a little demonstration of 'there's a price to be paid', and that it was a warning, or reminder from whatever power we tap into ......a warning I always try to keep in mind. ( I did get a good case of goose bumps later, when I realized how much it reminded me of the short story,"The Monkey's Paw")

Be careful what you 'wish' for, even the simplest thing could have unforeseen repercussions....I wish you luck. Let us know what you decide.

@Yarcofin
Often I hear people saying that the occult is dangerous. And it is. It is in the fact that you will open the doors to the unknown. However that allows for intepretation and Christians are known to grasp for anything that they can use against "others". What they do is projecting their own fears on others talking from nothing more then theory and excegerated stories.

The occult allows people to look beyond that what is visible. You will gain knowledge and techniques which allow you to take away barriers and masks. This applies mainly to yourself. People carry masks to pretend to be something they are not and carry emotional and psychological barriers. The occult is one way to tear it all down and become that which you truly are and/or want to be. By then you'll become calm, peacefull...whatever

The occult is just one path with techniques and lingo that appeals to you. Because it appeals to you it has effect on you. If it does not appeal then you will have to find another path. If you look closely almost each path in life says and teaches the excact same thing in a different way with other superficial wordings that appeal to the individual.

As with everything in life there is a light and a dark side. There is more risk in getting hit by a truck then being eaten by a daemon. And I know, because I work with daemons on a regular basis. You can take it as far as you want to. It is important to break down the previous mentioned barrieres and use it to know when you find yourself ready for the next step. Most people are driven by ego wanting to do things faster then they are actually ready for.

It can be for the faint of heart since there are many paths within the occult that one can walk. You can stick to the books and become an armchair theologist magus or you become an adept and actually put it into practice at your own pace.

Certain rituals can drive someone insane. However this will not happen if you go through the proper growth. The reason you can go insane is if you're weak of will and this is achieved by a being taking advantage of your barriers and masks that you didn't acknowledge and dealt with during the early stages of your "training". Next to that you learn a lot of banishing and cleaning the mess up. A proper tutor will never allow a student to summon a deity without the student knowing the clean-up techniques.

Before a ritual is done a lot of time is spend to prepare for the unpreparable and get all safety measures taken care of.

And yes you can use magick even when not worshipping nature and such. You can do stuff like necromancy if that is the path which you choose or some other dark path. But it is all upto the individual of course.

I do get tired of people who use instant-spell kits and other commercial bull#. Or people that read a grimoire and follow the text without doing the proper training that comes before it, taking time for the preperation etc. I don't care if they get burned since it is their own mistake made by their own ego. Thinking they can do more then they were ready for.

As for the 3-fold law. I find that a load of bull. It applies nicely to the more superficial practices, but when you go universal with it...well it applies to nothing any more. It is more like this. When you taken down the barriers and masks you are truly yourself and whatever you do from that point on is in 100% correspondence with your true nature. You can't be wrong from that point on. 3-fold-law is a man made concept for the dogma right-wrong. The universe does not judge only people judge by their own standards. When you do something you know you shouldn't you will feel regret in due time and attract it into your life. Self pain/karma inflicting.

Enyalius,

When you say that you work with daemons on a regular basis, do you mean literal, incarnate, physical, visible daemons that you summon right in front of you? Or are you referring to something as more of a metaphor, such as removing something from your own ego?
If it's the first one, that seems like the sort of thing that would make me 100% certain that there has to be some sort of afterlife, which is the main thing that I am exploring the occult to figure out. I know enough not to mess with that sort of thing without years of training first though.

Also, it seems very clear to me that there are specific steps and stages that a person must go through when it comes to the occult. How would I determine what rituals and skills I must learn in what order, and when it is safe and correct to move on? I know there are many different branches of beliefs and practices, but can you give me some kind of guide or outline that all occultists/magus/magicians should follow? Or a specific set of books to read, aside from the ones mentioned earlier in this thread?

I'm interested and want to learn, but I also want to make sure that I learn it completely/correctly and don't just "dabble".

Thanks, and sorry for all the questions .



[edit on 12-3-2007 by Yarcofin]

Originally posted by Yarcofin

Also, it seems very clear to me that there are specific steps and stages that a person must go through when it comes to the occult. How would I determine what rituals and skills I must learn in what order, and when it is safe and correct to move on? I know there are many different branches of beliefs and practices, but can you give me some kind of guide or outline that all occultists/magus/magicians should follow? Or a specific set of books to read, aside from the ones mentioned earlier in this thread?

What books you read all depend on what direction you want to go.

Take a look at Complete Book Of Spells, Ceremonies & Magic by Migene Gonzalez-Wippler. It's not the best book in the world but it will give you a basic outline of the different types of magick users out there so you can follow up on the ones that interest you.

Another option is to spend some time at this website
www.sacred-texts.com...
It can be lacking on basic overviews, but it has the basic books of many paths.

@Yarcofin

Yes and yes. When you get more experienced with ceremonial and ritualistic workings you can experiment and make alterations to it. Doing so taught me that the same ritual, with minor adjustments, worked differently.

If I do it one way I'll end up with archetypical images that are summoned from my mind and appear in front of me. This allows for easy confrontations with yourself and get to understand it better before deciding how to deal with it and grow as an individual. If I do the ritual with the minor adjustments the Daemon(= Free Spirit not the Christian horned demons) that I summon will appear. It appears depending on the technique you used. '

Invocation will allow it to enter your body which allows for a communication through mind. An extra voice will be heard inside yourself which you know it isn't yours due to previous training (a very strong will is aquired). Evocation will allow the being to appear within a mirror, within a circle or wherever you want. Will other people notice it is there? Well you won't be able to record it since it isn't physical like a human being. However others could view it themselves within the mirror if they are capable of noticing such "energies". Another magus who just enters the room unknowing what is taking place could see it and afterwards say in details what occured. You will then have the same stories from different people.

The important steps usually means that the first few years you will be doing mostly theoretical study with minor excercisizes. You can learn how to do a ritual within 6-8 months, but you will not have learned the pre-requisites that take about a year or 4-5.

I personally suggest starting with Introduction to the Cabala - Z'Ev Ben Shimon Halevi since it explains a lot about the Tree of Life and each sphere. By studying each sphere intensely and applying meditational and pathworking techniques you will learn a lot about yourself. Each sphere contains a Sephira and Qlipoth (light/dark aspect) and corresponds with elements which in turn are applicable to your own persona. By studying them you're studying yourself allowing for a lot of personal growth. You see this back in many variations since Druids and Witches usually spend a lot of time on a certain element within the circle.

Next to that you could use The Middle Pillar - Israel Regardie in order to do some basic excersizes and learn the basics of ritualistic work in a relative harmless and innocent matter. I say relative since I noticed personally that it amplified the personal growth that I did with the Tree of Life. It can be very confrontational since you will come across a lot of old sores and barrieres that you created yourself and which you have to solve and find peace with. Not everyone can deal with this confrontation and will have to postpone it till they are without going crazy or going depressed. It is a difficult path for everyone no matter what way you do it in life. All those barrieres and masks are also responsible for the chaos and unrest within yourself and is why people can't get a "quiet" mind during meditation. By going through this growth you will eventually gain a constant state of meditation. The meditation most people apply these days are nothing more then symptom solving like drugs. A quick temporary fix.

While being busy with those two books and what is written in them you will have enough time to spend on the rest. The average time is 3-4 months per sphere on the tree, times 10, that equals a lot of months. During those months I'd suggest delving into a lot of things that interest you and also study several religions and life philosofies (Paganistic, Thelemic etc paths). Get a decent understanding of almost all in life that there is and that is a very wide subject that you have to narrow down depending on your own interests. Also try to find people who follow certain religions and paths in life and talk with them, see what and how they do it, gather information and then thing if that is something for you or not. See if it is something you want to do, only study it out of interest or don't associate with at all.

Once you found a specific path and are interested in specific techniques...then Cug and I can suggest specific books. For the time being the following books are decent enough:
Magickal states of consciousness - Denning
The Golden Bough - Frazer
The middle pillar - Isreal Regardie
Wisdom of the mystic masters - Weed
Witchcraft today - Gerald Gardner
365 days Tao - Deng Ming-Dao
Akashic Records: Collective Keepers of Divine Expression - Lumari
Astral Doorways - J.H. Brennan
Condensed Chaos: Introduction to Chaos Magic - Phil Hine
Key truths of Occult Philosophy - Marc Edmund Jones
Mastering Astral Projection:90 day course to OOBE - Bruce and Mercer
Pagan Theology: Paganism as a world religion
Psychology and Alchemy - Jung
Sjamanism: basics of magic - Ward Rutherford
The Kybalion
The philosophy of natural magic
The Three books of Occult Philosophy + fourth book - Agrippa
The way of the Shaman - Michael Harner
Theosophy answers some problems of life - Geoffry Hudson
Unseen forces - Manly Hal
In the grove of Druids: The druids teachings of Ross Nichols - Phillip Carr Gomm
The Edda
Western Esotericism: A Brief History of Secret Knowledge - Kocku von Stuckrad
Beyond Duality: The art of Transcendence - Laurence Galian
New Hermetics - Jason Newcomb
The holy books of Thelema - Aleister Crowley
Introduction to the Cabala Tree of Life - Z'ev Ben Shimon Halevi

Modern Magick: eleven lessons in high magickal arts (2e editie) - Kraig has some excercizes you could do as well next to the Middle Pillar of Israel Regardie.


Once you went through the proper growth and got rid of certain illusions of the ego you can easily tell when something comes from within you or outside of you and from where. When knowing if you're ready to do something and if it is what you want then you have to listen to yourself. When there is even the slightest of doubt then don't do it. Just study it from theories and get to know people who do it and can tell you more about it. Then decide again if you want to practice it or not.

[edit on 13-3-2007 by Enyalius]

[edit on 13-3-2007 by Enyalius]

Also...try to find libraries like this one. www.ritmanlibrary.nl... Someone just reminded me of it. Haven't been there in a while so forgot, but now thinking about going back again.

Originally posted by Yarcofin
When you say that you work with daemons on a regular basis, do you mean literal, incarnate, physical, visible daemons that you summon right in front of you? Or are you referring to something as more of a metaphor, such as removing something from your own ego?
If it's the first one, that seems like the sort of thing that would make me 100% certain that there has to be some sort of afterlife, which is the main thing that I am exploring the occult to figure out.

Just an aside, and an idea that admittedly, I have entertain the possibility of, thanks to Robert Asprin, but it is entirely possible that, assuming such beings as physical demons did appear and disappear and claim to be from other worlds, they might just be from another dimension and not neccessarily from the next "life".

I think the author called them "D-Men", pron "Demon" for short. It wasn't that they were devilish or evil, but rather normal tourists from other dimensions, passing through. Now, the book itself was a comedy, but the concept was a rather innovative one for me at the time, and the book that starts off the series is "Another Fine Myth" by Robert Asprin.

Anyway, I've never messed with demons or spirits, myself, except to try and get rid of them (or whatever was reasonably imitating them). I prefer to work with the primal energies themselves. Tapping into the dead to achieve what I want feels morally wrong, especially if that life has moved on to a new life. Having the past life jerked forcibly from it to answer to someone else casting a summoning (or Ouiji Board, etc) does god-only-knows-what to the present life the spirit occupies. For all we know, it causes the person to black out, or horrible pain. Done at the wrong moment, say while someone is driving, it could result in horrible things.

I've no idea if my advice is being considered, but morally, I'd advise you to stay away from summoning spirits, demons, etc. Magic is one thing. The forced manipulation of another's soul is entirely different.

Wow, it looks like I'm going to be busy for quite a while

Thanks for all the links and book titles, Cug and Enyalius. I'll check it all out.

I've read Initiation Into Hermetics by Franz Bardon over the past few days and it seemed pretty interesting. I'm not sure if it was a good beginner book or not, but it seemed to be geared towards beginners. I'm going to read a bit wider range of books before I start actively practicing any kind of exercises though.

[edit on 13-3-2007 by Yarcofin]

Originally posted by thelibra

Originally posted by Yarcofin
I also bounce back and forth from thinking there may be a Creator God of some sort, to thinking more in terms of just evolution.

Who says both can't be a factor?

I agree completely. I believe in both myself.

Interesting quiz. Here is what I got:

1. Neo-Pagan (100%)
2. Unitarian Universalism (99%)
3. Liberal Quakers (99%)
4. New Age (92%)
5. Theravada Buddhism (85%)
6. Secular Humanism (83%)
7. Mahayana Buddhism (82%)
8. Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (82%)
9. Reform Judaism (67%)
10. Taoism (67%)

I am full blown, card carrying Unitarian Universalist by the way. I am also a Pagan though, so I believe that the quiz can be a somewhat accurate guide to one's beliefs. Good find Yar.

Edited for clarity

[edit on 3/13/07 by wellwhatnow]

@The Libra

The concept that Daemons and such come from another dimension isn't an odd concept at all, even if it comes from a comedy. However the way most people define another dimension is something I don't agree with. Yet there are other time lines and universes. There are certain beings that are capable to travel to another universe outside their own. But what would make them demons to us? They have similar unique concepts of morality etc like humans and other aliens. Or are you talking about Daemons instead of demons which are entirely different things to begin with?

Working with the dead and those passed away is something I prefer not to do either. However Demons and such don't fall into this catagory one bit. Seeing that you already mention that you never worked with spirits, demons etc (except for getting rid of them) does imply that you lack overall experience and knowledge of the how and what. Mere theoretical assumptions based upon once own moral valeus has little to no connection with the way it is.

Next to that I use the theoretical belief that each and everyone and everything is a mere aspect of The Source/God whatever. We're mere miniscule manifestations of the One and when you die you return and be absorbed by it. Then another aspect breaks lose to manifest carrying everything from The One and manifests in its own shape with unique traits. So demons, angels, men, aliens, nature its all the same at the core even though the superficial layer is different. It is this layer that gives each manifestation their own unique traits. Gods didn't change religion and shapes through history for nothing, nor is everything in life the same at the core, and connection, when you take away the shallow covers. It isn't mere coincidence that this occurs.

Personally I prefer working with daemons and I'll use the following analogy to explain. When building a house I do it myself with no help at all. Then some kid shows up, unasked, with the intentions to help. This kid is an "angel", but since it has no free will or anything else usefull it stays with mere intentions and the willingness to help even though it can't. The kid can merely inspire me to do the work myself which I was already doing. Even though intentions are very important it is very useless at the same time. So then I want to resume work on the house and the kid just walks in the way. If I want to take a hammer or a saw or a drill it stands in the way obstructing my construction. I tell such kids to buzz off and go play outside while the grown-ups do the work. Now if I need to put down new electric wiring through the house I know that I can not do it. So I hire an electrician (the daemon) which comes do it for me. I tell it what I want, how I want it, when I want it and what it gets in return as a fee/offerage for its hard work. The electrician goes to work knowing that it is capable to do it, yet I still come by every hour or so to make sure the electrician is still working instead of slacking off or doing something else it shouldn't do.

Originally posted by Enyalius
Now if I need to put down new electric wiring through the house I know that I can not do it. So I hire an electrician (the daemon) which comes do it for me. I tell it what I want, how I want it, when I want it and what it gets in return as a fee/offerage for its hard work. The electrician goes to work knowing that it is capable to do it, yet I still come by every hour or so to make sure the electrician is still working instead of slacking off or doing something else it shouldn't do.

What do daemons typically want in return for their work? How do you please or reward a non-physical entity?

What they get in return varies with each one.

And even though they are non-physical they can handle physical offerings quite well as long as it resonates with them. Resonance is quite simple actually. Everything vibrates just look at our own body and how cells attract and push each other away. The speed this occurs at makes us as physical as we are. Adjust the vibration and the object/individual can get more solid or less. Well it is more complex, but this is it in a nutshell.

It is also why I don't believe a rats ass of the New-age vibrations and levels of higher beings. Just because something can vibrate faster then our current senses can pick up doesn't make them better or more enlightent per se. It is also why I don't believe the way that most new-agers define another/higher dimension crap.

That is why certain alloys like copper improve the succes of summoning a specific daemon. At the end, when dispatching the daemon, I work with Licenses of Departure. These are like pre-written contracts written on a parchment which have certain oils and such on them, so from me they don't get a thing at first.

Usually I don't work with offerings at the end, but in due time when you build a bond with one (One of friendship) I do give them a little extra's. First I ask what it is they want and I give it to them the next time. It can vary from some wine since they like the scent even though they hate the taste or because they enjoy seeing the colour. Really I got no idea why they want such simple things when they can just go to a store or something.

Once I placed some reds and greens on the shrine and it resulted in getting some storytelling of history which later came to use and gave me some insight into something. So it is a 2 way street.

[edit on 14-3-2007 by Enyalius]

Originally posted by Enyalius
Or are you talking about Daemons instead of demons which are entirely different things to begin with?

Well, as you correctly guessed, my experience working with spirits, demons, daemons, etc, is quite minimal at best.

When I was a child raised within the church, "demons" were little red guys with bat wings, goat legs, bifurcated tails, and miniature tridents. Their primary jobs were to dole out punishments in Hell, and to act as messengers and errand-boys for Satan. As I grew older and left the church behind, along with my belief in Hell, the "reality" of demons seemed more in line with how people punish themselves or justify their atrocious acts. Rather than a cheesey CGI-effect, demons seemed more like an anthropomorphic personification of one's own shortcomings.

"Daemons", in the advent of the digital age, always meant to me a collection of swappable functions. For instance, if I created a batch file on the computer that would clean out my temp files, run a spyware scan, a virus scan, and a defrag, that would be a "Daemon". The metaphysical equivolent of this would seem more in line with your definition of one later on, the "electrician", so to speak.

"Ghosts", to me, are fragments of souls. The fracture typically seems to be somewhere within its own individual timeline, hence why the more famous ghosts are seen repeating the same actions, time and again. Over time, the energy that makes up this fracture becomes more diffuse, and eventually spreads out so wide as to be unperceptable as anything other than an unpleasant sensation.

"Spirits" are more in line with my tribal beliefs, and in re-reading my previous post after reading yours, I really should have chosen a better word, because our assessments are very similar. The Sac & Fox have many spirits to aid them. Some are totems, the "power animals" of each clan in the tribe, and some are helpers and companions.

For instance, long ago, my clan (the Beaver Clan) were known as the Underwater Panther Clan. There was once a great flood among the Great Lakes that trapped the panthers in their caves. Unable to escape to hunt for food, it seemed the panther would surely die. However, the otter, generous and playful, brought fish to the panther. The panther could have eaten the fish and the otter, and lived off the fat for many days. However, the panther ate only the fish, and the otter slipped away, to return the next day with anothr fish, and the next, and the next, until after several weeks, the waters receded enough for the panther to leave his cave.

This was observed by my ancestors, whom considered the panther the incarnation of a god. As the god spared the otter, and the otter saved the god through charity, generosity, and steadfastedness, it became a sacred animal to our clan. To this day, many of us, myself included, venerate Otter, and seek his aid and assistance in rites and ceremonies, times of trouble, or magic.

The dead, however, are another matter entirely...

Originally posted by Enyalius
Working with the dead and those passed away is something I prefer not to do either.

Indeed. Among the Sac & Fox, working with the dead is a grievous transgression of the natural order. Once they have passed through the back door of the medicine lodge, they are with the manitou, and any reminders of their life on this Earth must be disposed of or they will attempt to come back and continue living their former lives.

While my own views on this are mixed, I retain the idea that once the dead have moved on, reminding them of their previous lives is a very, very bad idea.

Originally posted by Enyalius
However Demons and such don't fall into this catagory one bit.

After reading your definition, and considering my own views, I agree. My response was more in line what what I thought Yarcofin to be asking, as he/she seemed to come from the same background I did, and the type of demons I got the impression they were asking about were the red guys who ran Hell.

Originally posted by Enyalius
Seeing that you already mention that you never worked with spirits, demons etc (except for getting rid of them) does imply that you lack overall experience and knowledge of the how and what. Mere theoretical assumptions based upon once own moral valeus has little to no connection with the way it is.

You are largely correct in this, my experience with working with spirits are largely animus (such as Otter, Coyote, Bear, Turtle, etc), and with antropomorphic personifications (Spirit of the North, East, South, West, Sun, Moon, Grandfather Fire, etc). Plus some cleansing of ghosts and what one might consider "spiritual parasites".

Insofar as actually hiring or coercing an incorporeal entity to do a job for me, the closest I've come is something that seems to have attached itself to my tarot deck. It comes and goes as it pleases, I treat it with respect, and likewise it doesn't interfere with my life outside of readings (decidedly rare events these days). I think of it as an eager (or bored) information gatherer.

Originally posted by Enyalius
Next to that I use the theoretical belief that each and everyone and everything is a mere aspect of The Source/God whatever. We're mere miniscule manifestations of the One and when you die you return and be absorbed by it. Then another aspect breaks lose to manifest carrying everything from The One and manifests in its own shape with unique traits.

Sounds pretty similar to my own beliefs, except I believe one might have to traverse many lifetimes before returning to the source. The number of lifetimes depends on what lessons must be learned first.

Originally posted by Enyalius
So demons, angels, men, aliens, nature its all the same at the core even though the superficial layer is different.

Fair enough, and I do agree. However, in terms of practicality, it is difficult to put to use.

An allegory of my beliefs here. The divine source is an infinitely large, intelligent ocean. Being infinite, it cannot conceive of what it is like to be finite in size, any more than we humans could conceive of what life would be like in one dimension. To learn what the infinite is, the ocean evaporates finite water particles (or awareness) into empty space, this vapor eventually coalesces into a droplet, or soul that continuous to gain more vapor unto itself until eventually it has gained so much awarness that it falls back into the ocean. While the two are seperate, the infinite ocean cannot fully know the life of an individual water droplet, and the droplet cannot fully conceive of losing its finite identity and becoming infinite. The two gain mutual enlightenment at the moment the droplet returns to the surface of the ocean.

So, while I am inclined to agree that I am the same water that makes up the person, animal, or thing next to me, they are still a finite individual until such time as they rejoin. Replace the words "water" with "energy" and science pretty much is in agreement as well. Everything is made of energy in different forms. All that energy at one time came from somewhere.

Originally posted by Enyalius
So I hire an electrician (the daemon) which comes do it for me. I tell it what I want, how I want it, when I want it and what it gets in return as a fee/offerage for its hard work. The electrician goes to work knowing that it is capable to do it, yet I still come by every hour or so to make sure the electrician is still working instead of slacking off or doing something else it shouldn't do.

I must admit you pique my interest here. Do you see a physical entity, actually performing work, lifting physical objects, or is this more of an invisible contract?

The Roman Catholic Devils... I find them amusing little eggregores. Jesus never asked for a religion based upon his beliefs, but some 200 years later people created the church nonetheless with faulty teachings. At that time politics and religion were intermingled so one can assume quite easily that during the early days the church was run by people looking for power and their fanatic expression of their beliefs grew to their heads wanting to convert every living being. You can also simply see which propogandic means were used to discredit other life philosofies and beliefs. Well that is basic history.

Thing is. Even though they manufactered images and "personality traits" of non-existing beings...they actually created them themselves. The more you focus on something and put "energy" in it through prayer or something similiar. Well, eventually they will become real. According to this servitores and eggregores are created as well. For those who are not familiar with those phrases: You create outer manifestations of your own mind - illusions, ego problems. If you can not look within yourself and keep blaming others and outer beings...you can't run away from your own problems that easily.

@Libra
I personally don't belief in life's lessons and such. Since we're all aspects of The Source we're already perfect...so what is it that we have to learn? My belief is that The Source knows that it is, but not WHAT it is. Due to some form of "frustration", due to lack of a better word, The Source split itself up (The Big Bang). Everything that came to be was an aspect of itself and through it The Source tries to experience itself.

I say that people can know a lot (theory) and through experiencing it people will truly learn to understand what they know and become wise.

In short I belief that we're here in order to try out various aspects and set-ups of The Source. Make mistakes, see how things work, understand what we are and enjoy it while we're at it. Life lessons...Karma...it's not spend on me. Through us The Source can experience itself in order to understand what it is. In my belief "God" is indeed All-Knowing, but there is a big difference if you know something or truly understand it.

But we're still here to enjoy life at its fullest. And I see the best way as understanding oneself fully and only doing stuff that is in 100% agreeance with oneself. Only the personal, individual, filling of what you want to experience in this life varies.

As for the last part. I do indeed see a being at work, but I doubt it is a physical being and I rarely give it physical work to begin with. Perhaps I can use a very personal situation here. A niece had problems for the past 15 or so years and I was asked if I knew of a solution since she didn't want to go to the police. Others should never learn of what was going on. I then spend 2-3 months creating a servitor together with Vassago. We then send the servitor over and the men that harrased my niece for 15 years started showing up less and less.

Now I also have a question in return. Ever heard of The Sacraments within the shaman community? As I understood these are some form of "pacts" made with some very powerfull deities. I do not know much about it, but got the impression they are some overpowered Totem Animals or something.

Originally posted by Enyalius
Thing is. Even though they manufactered images and "personality traits" of non-existing beings...they actually created them themselves. The more you focus on something and put "energy" in it through prayer or something similiar. Well, eventually they will become real.

Yeah, the whole idea of anthropomorphic personification is more or less the same. People observe death, and feel the need to personify it as the Grim Reaper to make sense of it, the image and idea of ol' Grim spreads and after a while, enough thought, energy, and common perception of the same thing ends up creating the Gream Reaper itself.

Though familiar with the theory, I'm not entirely convinced of it myself, because it neccessitates the obvious inclusions of Santa Clause, the Easter Bunny, and New York.

Further, it would eventually cause Pop Fictional icons become reality: Godzilla really would eventually come to life and wipe out Tokyo, alien ships really would have attacked Earth, an AI would wage war on humanity, and so forth.

Originally posted by Enyalius
I personally don't belief in life's lessons and such. Since we're all aspects of The Source we're already perfect...so what is it that we have to learn?

Well, for starters, we have to learn we're part of The Source, and how to return to contact with it. I don't think mere death allows one to suddenly achieve a state of enlightenment where return to the Source or travel through the infinite reaches of space becomes instantly available. If one has not learned these things in life, how can they expected to be suddenly learned in death?

One must learn how to transcend time, space, the body, the mind, the ego, the individual, before they can touch the infinite. However, it's not as simple as learning "this is how you do it", but rather an epiphany that comes about from the result of countless smaller realizations.

If you'd like a real life example, consider global climate change.
Humans are only now coming to the realization that we can impact the global climate, and that we must take measures to prevent from destroying our only true means of survival (the planet's ability to support human life). If you went back 7000 years ago and tried to explain to a shepherd that the advent of agriculture would inevitably lead to the collapse of the planetary climate system, he wouldn't even know where to start pretending to grasp the answer, because concepts like agriculture, global, and climate either didn't exist, or had only begun to be born.

What it took was 7000 years for the concept to spread globally that our individual actions really do collectively affect the world, physically, on a global scale. Perhaps a few people realized it along the way, early on, and a few to this day still deny the truth. But overall, humanity has finally started to learn this fact. The next step they must learn is what they can do about it.

When a student of Zen approaches an enlightened master, if he is a truly promising disciple, the master will impart a koan, or riddle, that makes no sense to the rational mind, but might become sensible upon enough reflection and epiphany. One such story involves a student who asks his master "What is enlightenment?" to which the master replied "Poop-stick!" Well, technically he didn't say poop-stick, but rather the native linguistic equivolent of "the stick we wipe ourselves with after defecation". The student suddenly achieved enlightenment and became one of Zen Buddhism's most famous masters.

Hence my belief that we only return to the source after we've learned how. I do not believe we gain infinite knowledge and wisdom upon our demise, we only gain the ability to use it once we've acquired it, one lesson at a time.

Originally posted by Enyalius
My belief is that The Source knows that it is, but not WHAT it is. Due to some form of "frustration", due to lack of a better word, The Source split itself up (The Big Bang). Everything that came to be was an aspect of itself and through it The Source tries to experience itself.

As reasonable a theory as any, but conflicts with your view there are no lessons to be learned. Would not the lesson in this case be "What am I?" Perhaps the lessons to be learned are the collective results of infinite numbers of finite lives. But unless these finite lives learn how to rejoin the infinite, this knowledge cannot be transferred.

Originally posted by Enyalius
As for the last part. I do indeed see a being at work, but I doubt it is a physical being and I rarely give it physical work to begin with.

Interesting. I've never really tried that. While I've seen some...things...before I've never attempted to wrangle them into service, only to get rid of them. Still, I'm not entirely keen on the idea of hiring or coercing them into service. I'm actually repulsed by their very presence. But then again, I may be seeing different things than yourself.

Originally posted by Enyalius
Now I also have a question in return. Ever heard of The Sacraments within the shaman community? As I understood these are some form of "pacts" made with some very powerfull deities. I do not know much about it, but got the impression they are some overpowered Totem Animals or something.

Yes, but they weren't referred to as The Sacraments among my people.

I may even have the wrong idea of what you're thinking of. What I personally have heard of, began with the Ghost Dance in the late 1800's, when the Shaman Wovoka of the Paiute had a vision of the coming Indian Messiah, who would deliver the remainder of the 500 Nations from the white man who invaded their lands. The uprising was quickly supressed by the BIA and any talk of the new religion went underground. There are a few who still hold the secrets of the Ghost Dance, and the lore, but most refuse to speak of it.

Was that what you were thinking of, or were you thinking of something else?

Originally posted by Enyalius
As for the 3-fold law. I find that a load of bull. It applies nicely to the more superficial practices, but when you go universal with it...well it applies to nothing any more. It is more like this. When you taken down the barriers and masks you are truly yourself and whatever you do from that point on is in 100% correspondence with your true nature. You can't be wrong from that point on. 3-fold-law is a man made concept for the dogma right-wrong. The universe does not judge only people judge by their own standards. When you do something you know you shouldn't you will feel regret in due time and attract it into your life. Self pain/karma inflicting.

I have to disagree here. It may be true on some level that the universe doesn't judge, but the universe does have its own laws. Gravity and enertia for example are laws of physics and earth, but somewhere interchange with the universe. Life and death are laws of the universe.

I don't think I'm making any sense, so I'll put it this way. For every action there is an equal or opposite reaction. I used gravity for an example above, in space there is no gravity. To life there is death, to light there is dark, to black there is white, to man there is woman, to wet there is dry, etc. The three fold law isn't just a some law a bunch Pagans invented when starting a coven, its a proven concept found in many religions.

Say your a smoker for a minute, when you go to use a lighter, the lighter works off of reactions. The flint sparks and reacts with the lighter fluid being pushed out, therein a flame results. To every action there is a reaction. In my opinion it happens everyday. Take a water fossit, yes we know how it works, but the fact is, you turn the knob and water spills forth. You turn the knob the opposite way, the water flow is cut off. If you drink water, you have to let the water out through urination. Its a pretty simple concept.

So my point is, while the chance of your reaction being three fold what you put out may be slim, there is a consequence. The fact that you don't morally believe what you did is wrong doesn't dictate consequences. It may dictate actions, but you cannot control what happens after you've done something.