Wiccans

@AcapableMind

It is true that each action has a reaction. And you attract what you send out. But it is bull that you suddenly get a reaction 3 times as strong all of a sudden. Some others even dare to make the atrocious statement that you get it back 10 fold.

Duality, now that is a proven concept. The higher you make a hill the further you will eventually fall into the hole. The happier you are, the more depressed you can become. Now the tricky part comes as Regardie has shown me. It is important to acknowledge that duality is there. However you should not be led by it like most do. And the same applies to the 3-fold law and the likes. You're automatically creating a system of judgment and fear whether people see it or not.


@TheLibra.
Not sure if that is what I ment with the Sacraments. Truth be told that there is very little to find on it so I only have to go on by the little that I heard so far. I'll definitely look into what you said and continue from there. Thanks for the information.

These thought forms, like Godzilla, I doubt they'd come physical. Not even occultists are capable of doing that (yet). So they will only stay as mere thought forms with a more subtle presence and capability. Godzilla filling people with fear, Santa filling people with some form of hope and joy. Still those, I feel, are still limited and "weak" thought forms compared to what you can achieve by hundreds/thousands years of dedication or made by a practitioner who knows how to do it more efficiently in a shorter time frame.

I agree on the point that we do not reach auto-enlightenment at the point of death. This is because I see enlightenment full of processes towards personal and global understanding and getting rid of masks and barriers. The needed processes become clear when you place the Kabalistic Tree of Life and the more "psychological" aspects of chakra systems in order to see the comparisons after getting rid of the shallow presentation of both systems. The "epiphany" occurs usually when moving through the Abyss of Da'ath.

Still after death I do see it possible of going back to the Source and such. I personally see life more as a work-vacation in which we placed restrictions on ourselves in order to be able to experience everything as if it was new. If I remembered how I did things in the past I might apply the same solutions and deprive myself of new experiences whether they be "good" or "bad". Since you can't understand what is good without experiencing anything "bad" I don't mind having bad experiences in life.

So after death you won't reach auto-enlightenment, but you do get rid of the previous limitations and "remember" how to get back to The Source for example, the all-knowingness returns when you're part of The Source again. Still knowing everything is pretty useless if you don't understand it. So personally I don't see a need to return to The Source any time soon since I rather experience it and truly understand matters.

The same restrictions can be gotten rid of by Astral Projecting or certain Trance techniques in which you gain the needed insights which tell/show you the how and what.

Why are you repulsed towards a being? It is not uncommon though. Mostly this occurs since people judge things according to their own moral values and ethics and when something or someone does not share the red outline of those values and ethics the individual automatically judges it as bad. Seeing that each creature, the universe itself, is actually neutral until someone views it and judges it. Only then something becomes bad or wrong. Not philosophical its just the way it is. Just because people share similar ethics and values doesn't automatically make it universally so, it is only so within that community.

Originally posted by Enyalius

It is true that each action has a reaction. And you attract what you send out. But it is bull that you suddenly get a reaction 3 times as strong all of a sudden. Some others even dare to make the atrocious statement that you get it back 10 fold.

Enyalius, I have seen instances of petty meanness, and cruelty that were followed by what seemed to be 'reprisals' that seemed to far outweigh the original act.

These were not 'occult' acts of meanness, just everyday interactions with others. ( And these people felt they had done nothing wrong, in fact felt justified in their actions.)

I have no way to 'research' the source of those reprisals, of course.....I just 'felt' that it was punishment handed out by a cosmic, karmic force. Am I wrong?

I would also like to tell you of an 'apparition' I (and others ) witnessed. It was so instantly frightening that we all hid, fearing to breathe, or actually being unable to breathe, til it passed. I've wondered if it could have been a demon.....

There isn't a hard and fast rule for reciprocity in magic. There are no rules anywhere unless we choose to invent them or to believe in the invented ideas of others.

There is no intrinsic metaphysical difference between a 'good' act and an 'evil' one; the Universe doesn't differentiate between the two, and it certainly doesn't give a crap what happens to a handful of narcissistic bipedal simians like Humanity.

But nothing is free. Every practitioner that I know, regardless of the belief system they profess, has experienced this. No matter how clearly your desire may be expressed and no matter how powerful your will, Eris finds a way to make things difficult. Even the most altruistic and selfless act of magic can turn on you in any number of unforeseen ways.

Just don't let desire or power get the better of you. Make every decision in working your will as though it could lead to death or madness if decided wrongly. Attention, carefulness and humility (in the mundane as well as the magical) are all that can save you from yourself; good intentions are nowhere near enough.

Originally posted by Enyalius
@AcapableMind

It is true that each action has a reaction. And you attract what you send out. But it is bull that you suddenly get a reaction 3 times as strong all of a sudden. Some others even dare to make the atrocious statement that you get it back 10 fold.

Duality, now that is a proven concept. The higher you make a hill the further you will eventually fall into the hole. The happier you are, the more depressed you can become. Now the tricky part comes as Regardie has shown me. It is important to acknowledge that duality is there. However you should not be led by it like most do. And the same applies to the 3-fold law and the likes. You're automatically creating a system of judgment and fear whether people see it or not.

I can see where you're coming from and honestly, it makes sense. Though, the three fold law is only a base to work from. Wicca and Paganism are religions that are completely initiary paths. There's so much room to change and incorporate your own practices and opinions that for anything but the Rede to exist as concrete is laughable. As is said in my previous post, it may be unlikely to reap three times what you sow, my only point is that you will reap some consequence. We can talk about probability as much as we want, but who's to say you won't reap it three times? Yes, its unlikely, but not impossible.

As I said before, I believe this to be an initiary path moreso than a religion. Religions are defined by their rules, constructs, and orders. They do as you said above and create systems of judgement and fear because no matter how hard we try not to, we are still humans. Someone will always feel their morals are better than another's and someone will always be repressed for that. But I believe that the three fold aspect of the law developed from the magickal three in the Craft. Consider all that the number three stands for in Wicca. The Maiden, Mother Crone as just one example. It is rooted deep in our path, and I believe as much you do that one shouldn't let it lead them, but it should atleast be recognized. Scoffing at someone elses way of practice because yours may contradict it is the whole perspective Wicca tries so hard to avoid.

Every magickal path is one of personal revelation and I think once you have chosen your path then the effects of that path or the energy of that path will be bestowed upon you from higher sources and so will the tests that go with it. So who are we to honestly say that the three fold law is bull? Because it hasn't yielded instantaneous results in the past?

Originally posted by w810i
jesus... If you can't help me don't reply.

Jesus can help you, give him a chance. I'm also interested in what he had to say if you care to share it with the rest of us.

In all seriousness. If you're a believer, I'm curious as to why you'd want to practice spells.

[edit on 17-3-2007 by saint4God]

Originally posted by dAlen
Born Christian...I think I get where you are coming from...though technically speaking your not 'born a christian'.

Too bad dAlen has me on ignore, he can't see when I agree with him . Anyway, he's right here. The rest of the post I had to chuck. Believing is a choice, not something you're born into.

I think what you may have started here is being a wandering sheep in a pack of wolves. Please be very careful about taking advice presented on the subject.

God bless.

[edit on 17-3-2007 by saint4God]

Great advice! and be especially careful about anybody who tells you there's such a thing as hell.

Originally posted by The Parallelogram
Great advice! and be especially careful about anybody who tells you there's such a thing as hell.

Some things are as predictable as the sun.

Originally posted by saint4God
I think what you may have started here is being a wandering sheep in a pack of wolves. Please be very careful about taking advice presented on the subject.

Saint4God, you know me better than that. And from what I've seen, Cug has never offered anything but helpful advice and references, as well as many others in this thread.

Religion has its good apples and bad apples. Just as there are some very bad pagan communities out there, there are also some very bad christian communities out there as well, as well as any other religion.

I've reached a point my spirituality where I can respect the beliefs of Christians, even if I am not one myself, but intolerance does sometimes make that very difficult. We've spoken a number of times though on religious matters, and you seemed to respect my views on God. Has this changed? Or am I thinking of someone else with a similar name?

Originally posted by saint4God


Some things are as predictable as the sun.

hey, at least I stand by my heathen gospel... given up all thou hast yet?

Originally posted by thelibra
Saint4God, you know me better than that. And from what I've seen, Cug has never offered anything but helpful advice and references, as well as many others in this thread.

I didn't mean you sir. Apologies for those consciousnesses who are self-convicting. There are two types of encouragements - negative and positive. A person who positively encourages another wants to help them take the most beneficial, helpful path as possible. A person who negatively encourages another is "double daring" them to do something where they may conceivably go through a great deal of hurt. I've never understood the motivations and psyche of one who negatively encourages, but I can name many who have done so in my life alone.

Originally posted by thelibra
Religion has its good apples and bad apples. Just as there are some very bad pagan communities out there, there are also some very bad christian communities out there as well, as well as any other religion.

Would you like some carrots to chop up and throw into that pot too? It's a sweeping and surprisingly hasty generalization you've put forth, but it would take pages to review in great detail.

Originally posted by thelibra
I've reached a point my spirituality where I can respect the beliefs of Christians, even if I am not one myself,

How generous of you. I think most of us can say the same unfortunately so I can't say you're unique in this regard. Thank you for tolerating "my kind".

Originally posted by thelibra
but intolerance does sometimes make that very difficult. We've spoken a number of times though on religious matters, and you seemed to respect my views on God. Has this changed?

Not at all. I can respect anyone's views though we both know we don't have to agree with them.

Originally posted by thelibra
Or am I thinking of someone else with a similar name?

That was us. We talked at great length about self-defense and the defense of our families and exchanged many ideas about our perspectives. I appreciate it and certainly welcome future discussions as well. Related to that point of defense, I will not allow someone to cause unintentional harm to themselves without at least a warning.

[edit on 17-3-2007 by saint4God]

Originally posted by The Parallelogram
hey, at least I stand by my heathen gospel... given up all thou hast yet?

Already ran through this gambit before, feel free to review my previous responses about it. Or, if you'd like to start a new thread with the same ole same ole, I'll drop on by for yet another round. It has no application here, aka it's off-topic.

[edit on 17-3-2007 by saint4God]

I really never exepected this thing to keep going an going. Anyways it does make from some good reading even though I bowed out around page 4 or so.

Saint4god- Jesus didn't help. I've tried that. Yet here I sit still in this painful life. So, I looked elsewere.

[edit on 18-3-2007 by w810i]

Originally posted by w810i
I really never exepected this thing to keep going an going. Anyways it does make from some good reading even though I bowed out around page 4 or so.

That's the great thing about this community, w810i. When a lot of good members hop into a thread and take an interest in the subject matter, it often grows beyond the scope of the OP. Old friends get reunited (like me and Saint4God) and new friends and acquaintences get made. And we learn new things about people we might not have known previously.

Don't feel bad about bowing out of the thread, because others, might take interest in the thread for their own reasons, and end up drawing some comfort or aid from it as well. I just hope we were able to help you out a little along your path.

And now, in regards to Saint4God's post

Originally posted by saint4God
I didn't mean you sir. Apologies for those consciousnesses who are self-convicting.

Touche', friend.

Originally posted by saint4God
There are two types of encouragements - negative and positive. A person who positively encourages another wants to help them take the most beneficial, helpful path as possible. A person who negatively encourages another is "double daring" them to do something where they may conceivably go through a great deal of hurt.

Ah, okay, fair enough. I can see that. So what you're saying is, while some of us in the thread are offering what we believe to be honestly helpful advice, a few are trying to goad the readers into something bad? I hadn't seen it, but then again, I missed a few posts along the way. I'd pretty much bowed out of the thread myself till I saw you posted in it and thought "Golly, I hadn't heard from ol' Saint in a while, I wonder what he has to say on this subject."

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by thelibra
Religion has its good apples and bad apples. Just as there are some very bad pagan communities out there, there are also some very bad christian communities out there as well, as well as any other religion.

Would you like some carrots to chop up and throw into that pot too? It's a sweeping and surprisingly hasty generalization you've put forth, but it would take pages to review in great detail.

Oh, come now, you can't tell me every religion hasn't had its bad apples at some point. Or were you agreeing? I apologize if I'm having trouble grasping your meaning, you seem a tad more hostile than I remember. But then again, I'm also on a lot of pain meds thanks to dental surgery two days ago, so for all I know I'm not even reading the right post.

Originally posted by saint4God
Thank you for tolerating "my kind".

Oh come on, man, you know it's not like that. I know you feel on the defensive in threads like this, and there's probably a number of people who've given you good reason to be. But I don't consider you someone I "tolerate", I consider you a friend. And as for "your kind", most of my family is "your kind", the ones that aren't Jewish or old NatAm Shaman. I'm past the age of indiscriminate Christian bashing. Heck, a Methodist minister even married my wife and I. So don't lump me into a group you conceive as "charitably tolerating the Xians." I like to think I'm more open-minded than that.

Originally posted by saint4God
Not at all. I can respect anyone's views though we both know we don't have to agree with them.

Of course not. If we all agreed, I'd be bored as hell. And from what I hear, hell is pretty boring. The reason I've stayed at ATS for the last 2.something years is because we can all disagree so civally that I usually learn something in the process, and sometimes my mind is even changed for the better.

Originally posted by saint4God
That was us. We talked at great length about self-defense and the defense of our families and exchanged many ideas about our perspectives. I appreciate it and certainly welcome future discussions as well.

I thought that was you! Yeah, we had a really good discussion then. Lemme know if you're active in another one you want some alternate views on. I'd also really be curious to know your honest thoughts on the Lost Tomb of Jesus.

Originally posted by saint4God
Related to that point of defense, I will not allow someone to cause unintentional harm to themselves without at least a warning.

Ditto. Especially as an expectant parent, my whole mindset is changing.

It's good to see you again man. I don't know if I misinterpreted some of your post, or if you are just feeling a tad defensive in this thread (Which would be understandable). Regardless, I just wanted you to know I've considered you a friend ever since our previous discussion, and respect your views as much as anyone else in this thread, so long as you respect our individual ones as well.

Originally posted by thelibra
Touche', friend.

One think I can always appreciate in speaking with you is the ability to shift paradigms. I strive to do the same, so it's very refreshing to be given a nod now and then as well.

Originally posted by thelibra
Ah, okay, fair enough. I can see that. So what you're saying is, while some of us in the thread are offering what we believe to be honestly helpful advice, a few are trying to goad the readers into something bad? I hadn't seen it, but then again, I missed a few posts along the way.

I'll add a third catagory. Those who believe they are being helpful without knowing what they are getting someone else into.

Originally posted by thelibra
I'd pretty much bowed out of the thread myself till I saw you posted in it and thought "Golly, I hadn't heard from ol' Saint in a while, I wonder what he has to say on this subject."

Hehe, thanks. I was glad to see you around too!

Originally posted by thelibra
Oh, come now, you can't tell me every religion hasn't had its bad apples at some point. Or were you agreeing?

It appears you have separated people into two catagories: "Those who are religious are... [insert blatant generalization here]" as opposed to "level headed thinkers". We can talk about the general nature of people, but when people who are reflecting the principles of their beliefs it is clear what those beliefs entail.

Originally posted by thelibra
I apologize if I'm having trouble grasping your meaning, you seem a tad more hostile than I remember.

I apologize, I don't mean to sound hostile. It is true now that I have the opportunity again, to push harder on a few points you'd brought up in the past. I mean it more of a compliment to be able to get to the heart of the matter rather than to dance around a few times before sitting down at the table for a one-on-one. It's true that if I didn't know you at all, I would have put more cream and sugar in the coffee.

Originally posted by thelibra
But then again, I'm also on a lot of pain meds thanks to dental surgery two days ago, so for all I know I'm not even reading the right post.

Ack, I'm sorry to hear -_-. Hope you're feeling better soon. I never intend to make anyone stressed over my words.

Originally posted by thelibra
Oh come on, man, you know it's not like that.

You're right, but I'm hoping you see the way you sound. It speaks volumes of the subconscious.

Originally posted by thelibra
I know you feel on the defensive in threads like this, and there's probably a number of people who've given you good reason to be. But I don't consider you someone I "tolerate", I consider you a friend.

The feeling is mutual .

Originally posted by thelibra
And as for "your kind", most of my family is "your kind", the ones that aren't Jewish or old NatAm Shaman. I'm past the age of indiscriminate Christian bashing. Heck, a Methodist minister even married my wife and I. So don't lump me into a group you conceive as "charitably tolerating the Xians." I like to think I'm more open-minded than that.

You are, but you weren't showing it . Which is my point. I pledge not to lump you into any groups if you relieve me of the group you've lumped me into. Deal?

Originally posted by thelibra
Of course not. If we all agreed, I'd be bored as hell.

Originally posted by thelibra
And from what I hear, hell is pretty boring.

x 2 . True dat.

Originally posted by thelibra
The reason I've stayed at ATS for the last 2.something years is because we can all disagree so civally that I usually learn something in the process, and sometimes my mind is even changed for the better.

Good good. Pardon please if I push outside of the comfort zone. I've learned a great deal as well.

Originally posted by thelibra
I thought that was you! Yeah, we had a really good discussion then. Lemme know if you're active in another one you want some alternate views on.

You'd helped me resolve some internal conflict I had about defense. How far can you defend before you're on offense? It's a good one.

Originally posted by thelibra
I'd also really be curious to know your honest thoughts on the Lost Tomb of Jesus.

Sure, if there's a thread I can go to it, or we can start one, or U2U.

Originally posted by thelibra
Ditto. Especially as an expectant parent, my whole mindset is changing.

Excellent, then you can understand my position on the subject as well. Congratulations by the way!

Originally posted by thelibra
It's good to see you again man. I don't know if I misinterpreted some of your post, or if you are just feeling a tad defensive in this thread (Which would be understandable).

I am, but not in defense of myself. Rather, in defense of the sheep who wandered into the wolves' den.

Originally posted by thelibra
Regardless, I just wanted you to know I've considered you a friend ever since our previous discussion, and respect your views as much as anyone else in this thread, so long as you respect our individual ones as well.

Surely. I know I've crossed lines in the past unintentionally, but hope it's understood that I'm trying to be a helper, not one who harms.

[edit on 18-3-2007 by saint4God]

Seeing my house is up and running I actually started practicing again instead of merely talking about it. Its good to be home again So my apologies for the late replies.

@Frayed1

Reprisals indeed occur, this is something that can not be denied. But then one should ask WHY these reprisals occur. As was explained by The Parallelogram there is no universal right and wrong. On top of that the Western interpretation of Karma is a bastardized flawed translation from the original word from the East.

People experience events in life and in their mind they can rationally justify everything from their point of view. Unfortunately this doesn't automatically make them right, except in their own viewpoint and the few that agree with you. On the other side there are people who justify their acts and reactions and deem it equally right no matter how "evil" you might percieve it.

Now - according to the Law of Attraction - if you can not justify an act, because you simply didn't do what you truly wanted to do....then you can feel guilt in due time. By feeling that you will get a reaction to it. Depending on how long you feel negative about something you will get these "reprisals". So you could have 1 or a 100 depending on how long you feel guilty. This is of course a mere watered down explenation.

As for the apparitions. It reminds me of this show on Zone Reality called Girly Ghosthunters. Four girls claiming to be witches using "spells" to protect them. In actuality they are either actors with little knowledge or a bunch of new-age fluffy bunny witches who know very little of their path. They make each other crazy and scary while there is very little reason to.

The thing is, when something is new and unknown people often feel uneasy and depending on their own disposition can become very scary. Ideas and concepts raging through their minds making themselves even scarier. Then when an actual ghost/apparition appears people often get scared of themselves assuming that the fear and negative vibe comes from the being while its not. They casted this illusion within their own minds so they can not see what is truly out there. In due time people get less anxious and scared, well some at least heheh. And due to your own anxiety and fear one can not breath due to the tension of muscles.

Now I do not say that this is what occured at your place, but it is very possible. I do not say there are no "negative" apparitions since I've dealt with enough of them to know that they are real. However they are not as large in numbers as the media makes people belief. Making people scarier then is needed as if each apparition is automatically evil. That is like saying that each individual we meet on the street is evil before getting to know them.

Paralellogram
But nothing is free. Every practitioner that I know, regardless of the belief system they profess, has experienced this. No matter how clearly your desire may be expressed and no matter how powerful your will, Eris finds a way to make things difficult. Even the most altruistic and selfless act of magic can turn on you in any number of unforeseen ways.

That is why a lot of time and effort is spend on the preperations before an act. Prepare for the unexpected. Still, no matter how much you're prepared, there is always a very small thing that can slip by.

@ACapableMind
Personally I see the path of a witch as truly eclectic. A witch means from an etymological point of view "Wise Woman" and has nothing to do with magic nor celtic folklore. There are no dogma's or anything else that can be associated with a true witch. Like a magus she is free to do and become as she personally prefers. This is why you won't come across concepts like karma, The Rede, judgements like good/bad on a true witches path.

Now what is funny is that there are "witches" saying they are eclectic witches. That immeadiately shows that they are not. Witches are eclectic by nature so saying "eclectic witch" is dubble.

Wicca is totally opposite of it all. At first there were "rules" and initiation was required. Similar to the Christian Baptism and its "rules". Wicca was and is originally intented to be a religion with more Thelemic bonds (which could be seen by a religion as well if you prefer). Wicca has little to no lines with the witches path.

I find it ironic that many Wiccans say that there are no boxes to put them in yet they keep creating more and more to put themselves in. You hear them say "I'm Dianic Wiccan" or "I'm Eclectic Wiccan" and blablabla.

I can see the "Three Fold Law" as a symbolic re-presentation of The mother, crone, maiden or the Egyptian variant if one chooses to use that in their Wiccan practices. But seeing it as a Three Fold pay-back system is flawed from almost every viewpoint there is. This is because it is a man-made concept.

And men makes mistakes

Originally posted by Enyalius
@AcapableMind

It is true that each action has a reaction. And you attract what you send out.

Hi Enyalius,

You have no idea how much I believe this sentence. I have seen many examples during my life so far.
Namely, at least 3 times in my life I have looked at a business on the way to work and said to myself, "Ay, i wish could work there..." Only to find myself there a few months later. I've also done it with property. (I work through agencies and don't have much choice of the location of my next contract)

I just want to know...where can I learn more? Does anyone have any good book or site suggestions? i.e. mainly on the universe and how we fit together and also that whole attraction bit too

Thanks
Z

Well you could study alchemy and the basic principles of life in order to get the concept down. Some books such as Corpus Hermeticum or The Kybalion (which is a free PDF on the net) talk about it to some degree as well.

Or you could buy the dvd The Secret which talks about The Law of Attraction by Hicks. But be warned...it is a very watered down fluffy version. Somehow American TV seems to enjoy making things more...fairytale like.

I can relate to what you say Zenem. I met my GF, the house, my job, books and more in this way.

[edit on 19-3-2007 by Enyalius]

I'm curious you mention that if you do a spell and feel guilt it could come back at you 1-100 times what you sent out. So..what if you feel no guilt for what you did then what?

Originally posted by Enyalius

@Frayed1

Now - according to the Law of Attraction - if you can not justify an act, because you simply didn't do what you truly wanted to do....then you can feel guilt in due time. By feeling that you will get a reaction to it. Depending on how long you feel negative about something you will get these "reprisals". So you could have 1 or a 100 depending on how long you feel guilty. This is of course a mere watered down explenation.

Sorry, I've given you the impression this was something that I did and felt guilty for......that was not the case, let me flesh out my earlier post....

A friend cheerfully called me with the story of a 'coup' that her husband had just pulled off. He had been involved in an auto accident earlier that day ( a day or so before Christmas Eve), but it was only a fender bender. The 'other guy' had no insurance ( a jailable offense here), but he did have cash......the cash he'd saved to purchase presents for his family.....my friend's husband agreed that he would not call the police, if the man paid him all he had.

She was delighted....I was horrified, that he would have done that ( He did not need the money, the car was a company car and would have been fixed, no cost to him.....the other guy, was apparently not so well off.), and I was more horrified that she would laugh about it, saying, "It served them right! No insurance!".

No guilt, no remorse, no negative feelings, except maybe towards me when I protested that she couldn't mean it.......that it wasn't right, surely not at Christmas!

I felt a coldness wash over me, tears filled my eyes, I felt so sorry for the poor man that had lost his money, and sorry for my friend.....I felt a sense of dread for what might come......

4 or 5 months later, her husband had another accident.....he was the victim of a hit and run by a truck and left for dead on the side of a country road.....he recovered after much pain and financial loss. ( As far as I know, she never made a connection between the two incidents, never thought of it as any sort of 'punishment'. I never told her that I was sure the two accidents were inexorably tied together.)

This is not to say that I never do anything worthy of a good swift kick, but since I 'expect it', it would be less of a 'control' example, no?

As to my 'apparition'.....it was not the result of a fluffy bunny witch spell that I'd cast......I was too young to know there was such a thing.....and I will save that story for another post, if you'd care to hear more.