Taiwan President talks Independence

"Saudi Arabia is not democratic, nor is it a country that should have
ever been given any support.

I dissaprove of the Israeli bombing of Lebanon, and think that more
should have been done in terms of disciplining and preventing Israel
for it.

I am smarter than the general population, of many countries and
generally do not like the government.



It is a great mistake on your part simply because I support the ROC
but do not like PRChina that I ma some right wing neocon, who thinks
his government is always right."

I completely agree with the above opinion, might i point out that Bush is sitting on a sub 30% approval rating for the past several months. Might i also point out, that since the past elections, life has been hard in the oval office. Cabinet officials have been going back and forth from hearing to hearing to be held ACCOUNTABLE for their actions. Now you may say this is all a facade created by America to appease Americans and yet allow the war to go on. I would like to ask this, perhaps you think that because thats all you know, thats all you have been exposed to. Perhaps the POV you come from is that of a controlled regime that leaves no doubt in your mind that true freedom does not exists, and so you look for examples that reinforce that belief structure. Those are simply some questions to consider...

"yeah...you can make fun of your government...all of the world know that you can make fun of your government,don't you think I don't know??who make you believe i don't know??? your government??
the reason why you can make fun of your government is because your government official isn't the most powerful man in your society..somebody is.....somebody financially support your politician and make them win in the election..."

Dude, there is a fundamental difference to the way you approach things and those who grew up free societies approach things, you immediately point to the government for everything. At least people in Europe can relate to our way of life, and that just as there can be descent against the war there, there can be here. The government is not behind every single action in America. UNLIKE CHINA. I know its hard to believe, but it is the case. I'd also like to point out that your view of politics is very negative, and i would venture to say that is a result of the indoctrination done by your all knowing and seeing government.

"you want prove????although you didn't give any prove of your "chinese-government torture and killing theory".....but when most of your people are convinced by your media propagandize machine trying to tell them how dangerous the situation are....when the majority of your people believe that your government WAD theory and believe that deliver democracy to the desert crap........what do you think????....still unbrainwashed????.... "

Dude, why do u think China has gone into super-growth mode? Because of Chinese FDI? The Foreign Direct Investment that feeds China's growth comes from (cue the music) THE DEMOCRACIES OF THE WEST!! Especially the good ole US of A. If we were, as you say, "brainwashed" into believing China is torturing and killing all of its people, why would our companies (from small businesses all the way to the big guys) invest in China? Also, i might point out that China isnt exactly a white knight when it comes to foreign affairs... Who facilitated North Korea's long range missiles and nuclear capability? Who propped up Burma/Myanmar's military regime when nobody else did until recently, who has and is supporting Sudan as it continues its ethnic cleansing and genocide (the weapons they use to kill are CHINESE WEAPONS) (also they're doing it for the OIL), and who has started to help fund some of the most repressive regimes in Africa? China is no darling, and because you have no basis to relate to democracy, i dont think America should ever look to China as an ally, until its people live free.

[edit on 22-3-2007 by Neilmon]

Originally posted by Neilmon
I completely agree with the above opinion, might i point out that Bush is sitting on a sub 30% approval rating for the past several months. Might i also point out, that since the past elections, life has been hard in the oval office. Cabinet officials have been going back and forth from hearing to hearing to be held ACCOUNTABLE for their actions. Now you may say this is all a facade created by America to appease Americans and yet allow the war to go on. I would like to ask this, perhaps you think that because thats all you know, thats all you have been exposed to. Perhaps the POV you come from is that of a controlled regime that leaves no doubt in your mind that true freedom does not exists, and so you look for examples that reinforce that belief structure. Those are simply some questions to consider...

okay,you've made your point..and so what??would you mind me point out even bush administration is sitting on a sub 30% approval rating,his military buddy is still out there protecting somebody's interest.would you mind me point out that those Dlemocrats who oppose this war are also the one who approved this war back to the day.........oh yeah...political stratagem....the government can change...but the most powerful man in your society won't change...yeah............politician fight each other to serve their real master...the powerful man.....is that your locate media brainwashed you that chinese people are all brainwashed by their government??.....oh yeah..truly freedom....is that what your locate media told you everyday when you watching TV and doesn't even know what's is really going on outside...at least i learn history...i know there is no clear-cut about freedom and non-freedom....i know there is no clear-cut about democratic and undemocratic...i know england people fight 400 years to their authority to claims their rights...i know back to the day you american people claims human rights when you sold black slaves....at least i know rome wasn't built by one day.........yeah....truly freedome???...your country is more democratic than mine???...maybe.....but you think your country is democratic enough??....hell no...

Originally posted by Neilmon
Dude, there is a fundamental difference to the way you approach things and those who grew up free societies approach things, you immediately point to the government for everything. At least people in Europe can relate to our way of life, and that just as there can be descent against the war there, there can be here. The government is not behind every single action in America. UNLIKE CHINA. I know its hard to believe, but it is the case. I'd also like to point out that your view of politics is very negative, and i would venture to say that is a result of the indoctrination done by your all knowing and seeing government....

yeah....again..here we go....We Chinese people are all brainwashed by our government.......

of course government cann't control every part of the society...society management is like an art of balance...but there is always a mainstream....it is your government who said there is WAD in Iraq...it is your locale media convinced most of american this truthful lie........it is your government use this excuse to invade other country to serve their powerful man....so face the truth...they brainwashed you......

Originally posted by Neilmon
Dude, why do u think China has gone into super-growth mode? Because of Chinese FDI? The Foreign Direct Investment that feeds China's growth comes from (cue the music) THE DEMOCRACIES OF THE WEST!! Especially the good ole US of A. If we were, as you say, "brainwashed" into believing China is torturing and killing all of its people, why would our companies (from small businesses all the way to the big guys) invest in China? Also, i might point out that China isnt exactly a white knight when it comes to foreign affairs... Who facilitated North Korea's long range missiles and nuclear capability? Who propped up Burma/Myanmar's military regime when nobody else did until recently, who has and is supporting Sudan as it continues its ethnic cleansing and genocide (the weapons they use to kill are CHINESE WEAPONS) (also they're doing it for the OIL), and who has started to help fund some of the most repressive regimes in Africa? China is no darling, and because you have no basis to relate to democracy, i dont think America should ever look to China as an ally, until its people live free.

yeah united states did make a lot of investment in China and helped a lot...but you think they are coming here just for good conscience???come on.........

China isn't white knight....yeah.....but at least we won't relate some religion with fascist...

Originally posted by zhangxi0183

yeah....again..here we go....We Chinese people are all brainwashed by our government....

...

of course government cann't control every part of the society...society management is like an art of balance...but there is always a mainstream....it is your government who said there is WAD in Iraq...it is your locale media convinced most of american this truthful lie....

....it is your government use this excuse to invade other country to serve their powerful man....so face the truth...they brainwashed you...

...

You are a serious duesch bag.

You really like to use the "lol" smiley way to much...
What do you call it when someone comes into your house and takes your remote control to your TV, and then makes you watch what they want to watch, And your fine with it? Thats what the chincom government has done to its ppl on a grand scale.. The chinese sheeple have come to accept their corrupt government for what it is. And theyre fine with it. Now lets throw in some cheesy chinese graphics filled with all sorts of propaganda filth that the dictatorship feeds its sheeple and what do you have? The PRC of today. Your government suppresses its ppl from viewing the internet freely, Your government is responsible for the Tienanmen square massacre, something you deny ever happening. So I would say it is your government that has successfully brainwashed the chinese populace (your dumbass self included) into believing whatever the hell they want you to believe in.


Hmm wonder where this came from? Why is that man standing in front of those tanks? I bet thats a forbidden image in china. Something that you probably wont be seeing because it has the word "Tienanmen square" in it. And we both know why that certain word is forbidden in china. dont we..


[edit on 033131p://1303am by semperfoo]

Originally posted by semperfoo
You really like to use the "lol" smiley way to much...
What do you call it when someone comes into your house and takes your remote control to your TV, and then makes you watch what they want to watch, And your fine with it? Thats what the chincom government has done to its ppl on a grand scale.. The chinese sheeple have come to accept their corrupt government for what it is. And theyre fine with it. Now lets throw in some cheesy chinese graphics filled with all sorts of propaganda filth that the dictatorship feeds its sheeple and what do you have? The PRC of today. Your government suppresses its ppl from viewing the internet freely, Your government is responsible for the Tienanmen square massacre, something you deny ever happening. So I would say it is your government that has successfully brainwashed the chinese populace (your dumbass self included) into believing whatever the hell they want you to believe in.
Hmm wonder where this came from? Why is that man standing in front of those tanks? I bet thats a forbidden image in china. Something that you probably wont be seeing because it has the word "Tienanmen square" in it. And we both know why that certain word is forbidden in china. dont we..

[edit on 033131p://1303am by semperfoo]

yeah...my government sucks...I never denied that...and so what???does it make you feel like your government is the guarding angel??......does it change the truth that your government brainwashed you??...does it change the fact that your government segregated white and black couple years ago??.......does it change the truth that your governmet violated the human rights of your own people???....

i made so much lol because someone in this thread are just so deeply brainwashed and cound't face the truch.......how pathetic it is...

at least my government are getting better and better and your government are just getting.....whatever....

this shows i am uninformed because
a . i already believed taiwan is a soverign nation
b . because i alway believed that we told them if china screwed with them we had their back
c. if it is part of china why are we giving military weapons to them that would be like russia arming puerto rico.
so apparently i am very uninformed

this shows i am uninformed because
a . i already believed taiwan is a soverign nation
b . because i alway believed that we told them if china screwed with them we had their back
c. if it is part of china why are we giving military weapons to them that would be like russia arming puerto rico.
so apparently i am very uninformed

"yeah...my government sucks...I never denied that...and so what???does it make you feel like your government is the guarding angel??......does it change the truth that your government brainwashed you??...does it change the fact that your government segregated white and black couple years ago??.......does it change the truth that your governmet violated the human rights of your own people???....

i made so much lol because someone in this thread are just so deeply brainwashed and cound't face the truch.......how pathetic it is...

at least my government are getting better and better and your government are just getting.....whatever...."

Everybody is a result of the things and people they interact with. Theres no denying that. All we happen to be saying is that the PRC is, has, and will be messing with one of the principle elements of interaction regarding China. The media is a huge part of what people use to find out about the world. Contrary to what you say, the American media is not controlled by the American government. Some media outlets may be under intense government influence, but we, as Americans, have a choice to watch or not to watch. In China, the choice is eliminated. You can choose to watch/read the news or not, there is no choice as to what kind of news, or from whom you wish to get the news from. This American choice is the reason why the US government bans no site on the World Wide Web, this choice is a freedom we have. If you do not understand this choice, then there is no reason to continue this dialogue, because you will continue to spit babble and go off topic.

Now, regarding the comment about America being the "guardian angel". America has two goals as the world's undisputed hyperpower. One goal is personal (national interests), the other is international (world interests). Just as China arms Burma's military government and the genocide in Sudan for its personal interests, America fights Iraq and arms Saudi Arabia. I think this is a great example, Sudan and Burma are considered smaller beans than Iraq and Saudi Arabia, similarly, China as a power, is considered smaller than America. As countries grow, their national interests stay the same however the actions taken to secure them, grow.

As for segregation, there were many things that happened in order to eliminate segregation from America and implement affirmative action in order to correct the mistakes of slavery. One of the key components of this was the media. A free media allowed the whole country to find out about the injustices of the African American community in the South. I wonder has China implemented any form of action to help uplift its numerous minorities or even give these minority communities equality in the Han dominated society its creating? Have they even considered the Indian-model of affirmative action to help increase diversity in any or all its public and private fields? Has China taken any steps to help the Uigher people, Tibetan people, or Mongolian people living within its borders? Or is peace and prosperity only for the pure Han, and repression and oppression for the weak others?

Again, your government is getting better and better? Define better in terms of human rights, a term you brought up. The greatest capital punishments, accounting for 90% of the world's total (en.wikipedia.org...'s_Republic_of_China). Subjugation of minorities. Repression of the media. Repression and control of religion. Yeah, China's human rights record is getting so much better. As for America, uhhh, you brought up segregation, i'm pretty sure thats been eliminated, yea definitely gone. In America, if there is a lack of human rights, someone needs to bring it to the public's attention, the public brings it to the attention of the politicians, and, eventually, things change. China has no such mechanism.

Thanks, bye :-) :-)

Originally posted by proteus33
this shows i am uninformed because
a . i already believed taiwan is a soverign nation
b . because i alway believed that we told them if china screwed with them we had their back
c. if it is part of china why are we giving military weapons to them that would be like russia arming puerto rico.
so apparently i am very uninformed

Yes you are quite uninformed.

a. Your "belief" that Taiwan is a soverign nation is simply... lol, your belief to say the best. The UN, EU, US, and even TAIWAN'S OWN CONSTITUTION does not view it as an independent nation. Under the constitution, there is no nation of Taiwan... it is the nation of the Republic of China with Taiwan being ONE of it's governing provinces.
b. Wrong... the US gov't has only stated support for Taiwan IF and ONLY IF the president sticks with the status quo - WHICH IS NO INDEPENDENCE and eventual reunification. The U.S. has stated very clearly that if the President declares independence, the U.S. will NOT back it up.
c. Uh... IT IS part of China - even if you don't see it belonging to "Red China" it is very clear that it is a "Province of the Republic of China." The U.S. is selling weapons to them to make money of course... billions and billions of dollars are to be made. Business is business.

Yes, again you are quite uninformed.



[edit on 25-3-2007 by k4rupt]

thank you for your post they say life is a learning experience.

No problem.

Go tell your friends.

I live here (Taiwan)...

most of my friends and students couldn't give a rats about seperating from China... but they also don't want to be under communist rule, so they don't want reunification either...

the majority of people I know are happy with their life as it is now...

"I live here (Taiwan)...

most of my friends and students couldn't give a rats about seperating from China... but they also don't want to be under communist rule, so they don't want reunification either...

the majority of people I know are happy with their life as it is now..."


Fair enough, power to the people

Exactly, x08 described the status quo.

Most people in Taiwan DON'T want to seperate from China... they don't give a crap about being "independent" or whatever, only the extremist President and his followers do.

And also true that they don't want to be under Communist control, but again, the status quo states reunification only and only when the mainland adopts democratic principles - WHICH THE MAINLAND is fine with that status quo.



Oh, BTW, fun fact - did you know former President Lee was first a Communist in China, than became a KMT member, than became DPP- pro indepence? LOL, talk about flip-flop...



[edit on 27-3-2007 by k4rupt]

Good fun fact, politics is a tricky business, they go from right to left then left to right till they find a slot that works for them... Makes you wonder how sincere this guy is when he pushes for independence. Could be a set of political stunts.

ask yourself pls
if the HAWAII archipelago want to independence,want to split from the USA, what will you do?
if CHINA support HAWAII to independence,what would you think?
you thought that the HAWAII is yours,just as we thought TAIWAN is CHINESE,the other country havenot right to interlope CHINESE interior,look after yourself,that's OK

I wouldn't compare Taiwan to Hawaii, i would say Taiwan is a mix between Hawaii and Puerto Rico. Sure Taiwan is mainly populated by mainlanders who fled Mao, but there are still local islanders too. Hawaii is a US state, we have a star for them on our flag, we have members elected from Hawaii who attend Congress. Puerto Rico, as a territory, occupies in between space, like Taiwan. Puerto Rico is different than Taiwan in that they have a different culture and speak a different language in Puerto Rico, though Taiwan is Cantonese, its still Chinese. Also, with American rhetoric supporting democracy throughout the world, support for Taiwan, should be inherent.