Taiwan President talks Independence

good points... I dont doubt the interdependent world economy. And Honestly a strong america and china is what is in the best interest for the global economy which is accelerating its growth.

About hillary. She is the strongest candidate for the dems. (sadly) Hopefully her and obama tear each other up a new one.

I dont see her getting it though. I actually think Rudy Gulianni has the best chance of winning the presidential election. I think hes a good candidate. I like how he is for individual state rights. Im an indepedant by the way. Im for who ever best represents the american ppl and whats best for us all. Dems are for big government thus stripping us americans from individual rights and freedoms. Dems want to mold the US after socialist europe. I dont want any part of that..

[edit on 093131p://0603pm by semperfoo]

Yes, the best thing we can all hope for right now is for the economic growth in China to lead towards a faster liberalization and a more secure path into democracy.


ON the 08 elections, I know Guiliani has the highest odds of taking the Republican primary and Hillary has the highest odds of the Democratic primary... it's basically going to be a standoff between those two.

You're right about the democrats and I think it's disgusting how they want to change America into a socialist state, provide amnesty for illegals, destroy businesses, etc the list goes on. The sad thing is that Hillary is much more extreme on the left than any other candidate has been for a long time and THE FACT that she actually has a fighting chance is scary.



[edit on 13-3-2007 by k4rupt]

I think this discussion is straying somewhat from the topic of Taiwanese moves towards independence. Really i would say America is tired of Republicans and their politics of fear. Regardless of who they field, they will lose the 2008 election, and thats a good thing. For America and the world. The Republican machine has grown too large, and too powerful, from Fox News to Rush Limbaugh, their influence on the nation must be curtailed, a Democrat in office means more free speech, and more free flow of ideas. America must focus on her strengths in these days of globalization and unfair trade. Our rapid descent in world opinion is nothing to scuff at. Its one thing to have strategic goals and objectives, its a completely different thing going about achieving them. The Bush administration has dropped the ball on so many things, simultaneously that the sorry sap who gets selected to fall to the Dems should and will pay for it. Thats my shpeel regarding that. Now, regarding Taiwan:

I think that the existence of Taiwan should be extended as long as possible by America. As long as Taiwan is not part of China, China will not grow its borders. China represents the greatest threat to international security, i say this because it is by far the greatest concentration of absolute power in the world. And, btw, that power continues to grow every second of every minute of everyday. China, today controls two complete countries that are fundamentally not Chinese. Tibet and the Uighers are independent nations that fell to communist China after military domination. Until China becomes a democratic power with the prerequisite freedoms all true democracies share, it must be treated as a strategic enemy, and should be subject to containment and control. I see no alternative to this.

Originally posted by Neilmon
I think this discussion is straying somewhat from the topic of Taiwanese moves towards independence. Really i would say America is tired of Republicans and their politics of fear. Regardless of who they field, they will lose the 2008 election, and thats a good thing. For America and the world. The Republican machine has grown too large, and too powerful, from Fox News to Rush Limbaugh, their influence on the nation must be curtailed, a Democrat in office means more free speech, and more free flow of ideas. America must focus on her strengths in these days of globalization and unfair trade. Our rapid descent in world opinion is nothing to scuff at. Its one thing to have strategic goals and objectives, its a completely different thing going about achieving them. The Bush administration has dropped the ball on so many things, simultaneously that the sorry sap who gets selected to fall to the Dems should and will pay for it. Thats my shpeel regarding that. Now, regarding Taiwan:

Ermm... the Dems control Congress and you want them to control the White House as well? We all know that would be a disaster for EVERYONE in the U.S. and around the world. Let's talk about US and what would happen to US, I definately, definately, wouldn't want to lose my job and who knows what Hillary would do...

I think that the existence of Taiwan should be extended as long as possible by America. As long as Taiwan is not part of China, China will not grow its borders.

But the thing is... Taiwan IS part of China, whether you see it as part of the People's Republic of China or the Republic of China. Even under it's own constitution, there is no Taiwan nation, it is the Province of Taiwan, Republic of China and the Republic of China belongs to the CHINESE people.

China represents the greatest threat to international security, i say this because it is by far the greatest concentration of absolute power in the world.

That is YOUR own opinion. Not me personally, but most of the world actually sees the United States as the greatest threat to international security, even more so than Iran and much more so than China (according to BBC polls).... so....

And, btw, that power continues to grow every second of every minute of everyday.

And yet it doesn't even COME CLOSE to the military budget of that of the U.S. or any other industrialized nation in terms of per capita. Even JAPAN's military budget is TEN TIMES larger than that of China's in terms of per capita.

China, today controls two complete countries that are fundamentally not Chinese. Tibet and the Uighers are independent nations that fell to communist China after military domination.

Not fundamentally Chinese? How about the United States, who does THAT fundamentally belong to? Yeah... that's what I thought.

Until China becomes a democratic power with the prerequisite freedoms all true democracies share, it must be treated as a strategic enemy, and should be subject to containment and control. I see no alternative to this.

So... you're saying that all country must abide by America's way of life, culture, and society or otherwise they will be treated as the enemy? I wonder who the real threat is...

I don't argue against democracy and in fact I want China to embrace it. But it cannot come in an instant like what happened to the former Soviet states. The gov't has acknowledged that Democracy is the eventual path of "Socialism" and they have over the years worked on that and have liberalized quite a lot.

All I'm saying is that treating China as an enemy would be a disaster. Nothing good can possibly come out of it now that our economies are so intermingled and that both nations have nuclear warheads.

I wonder, did you enjoy the fear of the times during the Cold War? It definately seems that you want another one... one where not only our lives but our livelihood and OUR JOBS are at stake.



[edit on 19-3-2007 by k4rupt]

Ohh don't get me wrong, when i say strategic enemy, i mean the stance taken by the neocons regarding China today. We still trade with them, i'm sure we have nucs pointed at them, but its not like we're pulling the trigger or letting that get in the way of our dealings with them. I by no means think imposition of democracy is the answer to any non-democracy. What i mean to say is that the Neoliberal belief that with free economies comes freedom is being proven wrong by the Chinese model of economic growth. China is seen in the developing world as an incredibly successful model. That is a very bad thing. We do not want smaller countries modeling themselves off of their authoritarian state, it subjugates vast swathes of the population and is not the humanitarian way to go about industrializing. As the globes sole hyper power it is our job to set an example, and help others who follow it. We played China against the Soviets, now the Soviets are gone and its time for us to reassess the situation.

I'm by no means saying we need another cold war, what i am saying is that what America is now doing with the quadrilateral alliance of Japan, Australia, India, and the US is the right direction to go. We must not fight a negative war, we must fight a battle of positive models. By pushing the largest democracies in Asia together, America is showing democratic solidarity. Another such grouping i am happy to see form is IBSA, a much spoken of South-South grouping of India, Brazil, and South Africa. These are three of the largest developing democracies in the world that can work to be role models for the three continents they represent. The Bush Doctrine is wrong, we must not impose our will upon others, but we can and should exert our influence by supporting democracies and approach non-democracies with suspicion, as most non-democracies lack checks on power, and are much more dangerous because of that.

"Ermm... the Dems control Congress and you want them to control the White House as well? We all know that would be a disaster for EVERYONE in the U.S. and around the world. Let's talk about US and what would happen to US, I definately, definately, wouldn't want to lose my job and who knows what Hillary would do..."

Not sure what that means... I'm in Michigan and if you want to talk about job losses and national economy, things haven't ever been this bad in Detroit. Now i would blame job losses more on state governments than national policy. If a state has corporate friendly business policies, chances are, companies will come. As for America's manufacturing sector both parties have had no problem watch them go across the ocean or next door. Also, i would like to point out that my previous post said nothing about the Democrats other than they are going to be taking advantage of Republican mistakes and provide more freedom (see free speech: news.bbc.co.uk... ), which would be good for America.

"But the thing is... Taiwan IS part of China, whether you see it as part of the People's Republic of China or the Republic of China. Even under it's own constitution, there is no Taiwan nation, it is the Province of Taiwan, Republic of China and the Republic of China belongs to the CHINESE people."

That's fine, but what i meant by the statement is the preservation of the status quo. This way China stays focused on getting Taiwan to return to their immediate control rather than the limbo they're in now.

"China represents the greatest threat to international security, i say this because it is by far the greatest concentration of absolute power in the world."

When i say greatest concentration of absolute power i mean that China may not be the biggest military, may not be the biggest economy, but it is the strongest authoritarian state, strongest non-democracy, and strongest un-checked power. It is universally understood that democracies are less likely to fight with one another than any other type of government. Long protracted conflicts (see Korea, Vietnam, soon Iraq) do and will suffer and collapse as a result of public opinion. A country like China can lie to its people (with state run media), not deal with dwindling military numbers (due to conscription), and never have to listen to its people regarding what they do (due to massive police garrisons near every population center, oh yea and Tienamin Square).

"Not fundamentally Chinese? How about the United States, who does THAT fundamentally belong to? Yeah... that's what I thought."

I really cant believe your logic here... If we use that same logic, we could say oh, the conflict in Sudan... we cant get involved because we screwed the Native Americans... Problem in the Balkins?... can't get involved we screwed the NAs... Iraq attacks Kuwait?... Can't do it, we messed up the NAs... WWI... we shouldn't have sent the doughboys, we dont deserve our own land, why should we help others defend there's... WWII Arsenal of democracy... no way we're terrible people, we should go back to where we came from cuz we screwed the NAs (OOPs i already used that one Doh!).

Look, we've gotten over our past wrongs, we've tried to make them right through compensation and reservations, theres nothing we can do to really fix that situation, we can only be aware of it, learn from it, and MAKE SURE IT NEVER HAPPENS TO ANYONE AGAIN. So rather than use that as an excuse to let others do the same thing, we should use our mistakes with the Native Americans as motivation to help those who are in the same situation.

I would also like to point out that you bring up some good points, and i respect your opinion. Sorry if my tone gets a little whimsical, i had a little fun with the last defense. Look forward to your response


[edit on 19-3-2007 by Neilmon]

[edit on 19-3-2007 by Neilmon]

Originally posted by Neilmon

Not sure what that means... I'm in Michigan and if you want to talk about job losses and national economy, things haven't ever been this bad in Detroit. Now i would blame job losses more on state governments than national policy. If a state has corporate friendly business policies, chances are, companies will come. As for America's manufacturing sector both parties have had no problem watch them go across the ocean or next door. Also, i would like to point out that my previous post said nothing about the Democrats other than they are going to be taking advantage of Republican mistakes and provide more freedom (see free speech: news.bbc.co.uk... ), which would be good for America.

Well, maybe so, but in view of the nation as a whole, GWB inherited a receding economy and turned it around... the economy has been robust and unemployment is at an all time low.

That's fine, but what i meant by the statement is the preservation of the status quo. This way China stays focused on getting Taiwan to return to their immediate control rather than the limbo they're in now.

Both sides want the retainment of the status quo and China has stated it VERY clearly that it has desired so. The status quo is simple - Taiwan will eventually reunify with the mainland when the mainland has adopted more democratic principles. President Chen, by speaking of "independence" has wandered DANGERUOSLY far from that status quo.

When i say greatest concentration of absolute power i mean that China may not be the biggest military, may not be the biggest economy, but it is the strongest authoritarian state, strongest non-democracy, and strongest un-checked power. It is universally understood that democracies are less likely to fight with one another than any other type of government. Long protracted conflicts (see Korea, Vietnam, soon Iraq) do and will suffer and collapse as a result of public opinion. A country like China can lie to its people (with state run media), not deal with dwindling military numbers (due to conscription), and never have to listen to its people regarding what they do (due to massive police garrisons near every population center, oh yea and Tienamin Square).

So you mean, the greatest non pro western power?

I really cant believe your logic here... If we use that same logic, we could say oh, the conflict in Sudan... we cant get involved because we screwed the Native Americans... Problem in the Balkins?... can't get involved we screwed the NAs... Iraq attacks Kuwait?... Can't do it, we messed up the NAs... WWI... we shouldn't have sent the doughboys, we dont deserve our own land, why should we help others defend there's... WWII Arsenal of democracy... no way we're terrible people, we should go back to where we came from cuz we screwed the NAs (OOPs i already used that one Doh!).

Look, we've gotten over our past wrongs, we've tried to make them right through compensation and reservations, theres nothing we can do to really fix that situation, we can only be aware of it, learn from it, and MAKE SURE IT NEVER HAPPENS TO ANYONE AGAIN. So rather than use that as an excuse to let others do the same thing, we should use our mistakes with the Native Americans as motivation to help those who are in the same situation.

I'm sorry, but I don't think anything can ever redo what the United States has done to the Natives or the African Americans... in the same note I don't believe anything can ever be done to redo the evil actions that nearly ALL countries have done in the past. Tibet is going to stay with China... there's no doubt about that and there is little anyone can do to change it. The best thing we can hope for is for China to turn into a democracy and that all people would share their voice... by treating China as an "enemy" I don't see how it could ever occur. China is already on a path towards liberalization and officials have acknowledged democracy as the eventual destination. With proof over it's recent growth and policies, I believe making China as an "enemy" would be MORE, MUCH MORE counter-productive to say the least.

I would also like to point out that you bring up some good points, and i respect your opinion. Sorry if my tone gets a little whimsical, i had a little fun with the last defense. Look forward to your response


[edit on 19-3-2007 by Neilmon]

Ditto.

"President Chen, by speaking of "independence" has wandered DANGERUOSLY far from that status quo."

If he is moving in a direction against the will of the people he will lose office, his party will suffer, and thats that... ahhh the beauty of democracy.


"So you mean, the greatest non pro western power?"

No, the greatest non-democratic power. Saudi Arabia is non-democratic, and by this logic should be treated as a strategic enemy. I understand that, and think that, eventually that should be the stance taken by America. Right now, we're desperately trying to create a middle eastern, non-Jewish democracy. If and when we are successful (i have a feeling once the oil starts flowing, and the revenues from that oil start coming, the Iraqis will buy as much defense equipment as possible to control all the errant militias) we must make it clear that in order to be an American ally, one must be democratic. Whats interesting to me is that Iran is the closest thing to a middle eastern non-Jewish democracy (about 1/3rd democratic) and we're alienating them.

Every country's foreign policy must be determined based on two fighting principles, morals and pragmatism. We switched over to pragmatism with Kissinger, and down the line, the USSR collapsed. Now looking at pragmatism, we did some things that bit us in the ass. Training of the Jihadi groups that defended Afghanistan helped, training of Alquada, the Taliban, and introduction/mass distribution of Wahabi Islam did not. I think it is time to move back to moral policy in order to attempt to correct those mistakes. Of course, by shelving pragmatism, we'll have other problems, but, the goal of it all is to incrementally decrease the magnitude of the problems like a damped sine wave.

"I believe making China as an "enemy" would be MORE, MUCH MORE counter-productive to say the least. "

For this, i would like to refer to my previous post:

"Ohh don't get me wrong, when i say strategic enemy, i mean the stance taken by the neocons regarding China today. We still trade with them, i'm sure we have nucs pointed at them, but its not like we're pulling the trigger or letting that get in the way of our dealings with them. I by no means think imposition of democracy is the answer to any non-democracy. What i mean to say is that the Neoliberal belief that with free economies comes freedom is being proven wrong by the Chinese model of economic growth. China is seen in the developing world as an incredibly successful model. That is a very bad thing. We do not want smaller countries modeling themselves off of their authoritarian state, it subjugates vast swathes of the population and is not the humanitarian way to go about industrializing. As the globes sole hyper power it is our job to set an example, and help others who follow it. We played China against the Soviets, now the Soviets are gone and its time for us to reassess the situation.

I'm by no means saying we need another cold war, what i am saying is that what America is now doing with the quadrilateral alliance of Japan, Australia, India, and the US is the right direction to go. We must not fight a negative war, we must fight a battle of positive models. By pushing the largest democracies in Asia together, America is showing democratic solidarity. Another such grouping i am happy to see form is IBSA, a much spoken of South-South grouping of India, Brazil, and South Africa. These are three of the largest developing democracies in the world that can work to be role models for the three continents they represent. The Bush Doctrine is wrong, we must not impose our will upon others, but we can and should exert our influence by supporting democracies and approach non-democracies with suspicion, as most non-democracies lack checks on power, and are much more dangerous because of that."

Originally posted by Neilmon


If he is moving in a direction against the will of the people he will lose office, his party will suffer, and thats that... ahhh the beauty of democracy.

Yup, you are correct sir. His approval rating is at 10%, his party has lost control of Parliament because of him to the KMT party, pro reunification party, and he was THAT close to being recalled, he literally had to issue 14 official state apologies to the people. The beauty of democracy, couldn't agree more.

No, the greatest non-democratic power. Saudi Arabia is non-democratic, and by this logic should be treated as a strategic enemy. I understand that, and think that, eventually that should be the stance taken by America. Right now, we're desperately trying to create a middle eastern, non-Jewish democracy. If and when we are successful (i have a feeling once the oil starts flowing, and the revenues from that oil start coming, the Iraqis will buy as much defense equipment as possible to control all the errant militias) we must make it clear that in order to be an American ally, one must be democratic. Whats interesting to me is that Iran is the closest thing to a middle eastern non-Jewish democracy (about 1/3rd democratic) and we're alienating them.

Saudi Arabia isn't a democratic nation, yet the United States will NEVER treat it as an enemy. In fact, Isn't SA an American ally? If you're saying we should treat China as an enemy for being non democratic, in the same note the U.S. should do the same to Saudi Arabia isn't that right? Hm....

"Ohh don't get me wrong, when i say strategic enemy, i mean the stance taken by the neocons regarding China today. We still trade with them, i'm sure we have nucs pointed at them, but its not like we're pulling the trigger or letting that get in the way of our dealings with them. I by no means think imposition of democracy is the answer to any non-democracy. What i mean to say is that the Neoliberal belief that with free economies comes freedom is being proven wrong by the Chinese model of economic growth. China is seen in the developing world as an incredibly successful model. That is a very bad thing. We do not want smaller countries modeling themselves off of their authoritarian state, it subjugates vast swathes of the population and is not the humanitarian way to go about industrializing. As the globes sole hyper power it is our job to set an example, and help others who follow it. We played China against the Soviets, now the Soviets are gone and its time for us to reassess the situation.

I'm by no means saying we need another cold war, what i am saying is that what America is now doing with the quadrilateral alliance of Japan, Australia, India, and the US is the right direction to go. We must not fight a negative war, we must fight a battle of positive models. By pushing the largest democracies in Asia together, America is showing democratic solidarity. Another such grouping i am happy to see form is IBSA, a much spoken of South-South grouping of India, Brazil, and South Africa. These are three of the largest developing democracies in the world that can work to be role models for the three continents they represent. The Bush Doctrine is wrong, we must not impose our will upon others, but we can and should exert our influence by supporting democracies and approach non-democracies with suspicion, as most non-democracies lack checks on power, and are much more dangerous because of that."

You're right. What the Chinese are doing and HAVE been doing WORKS. However, I still don't understand what you mean by treating China as a "strategic enemy." What good can truly come out of that? I can and have listed in numerous incalculable damages of doing so... what, then, are the pros?

Again, democracy will come eventually and I believe treating China as an enemy would hinder that. I'm sure there are actions that the U.S. can take to BETTER ensure a passage towards democracy for China without messing with China's sovereignty... there are plenty of actions the U.S. can take that can benefit both nations... starting another Cold War is DEFINATELY not one of 'em.

Originally posted by iori_komei
k4rupt, I am still trying to find the article that stated that 15% of
Taiwanese would'nt mind becoming a state of the U.S.A, however I did
find a copy, on wikipedia of the five things that the PRC has said it will
take military action against the ROC over.

1. Taiwan formally declaring independence.
2. Taiwan forms a military alliance with a foreign power.
3. Internal turmoil within Taiwan.
4. Taiwan gains Weapons of Mass Destruction.
5. Taiwan refuses to negotiate with the PRC on the one China policy.

Wiki Link

[edit on 3/7/2007 by iori_komei]

laugh my ass off...i cann't believe that someone without basic knowledge could just talk like this...before you make comment,do some homework please...

i have to admit that ever since i came to this forum...my good feeling of united states has gone away....and also run out of my patience..

Originally posted by iori_komei
Personally I support Taiwan, and am all for bombing PRChina into
the stone age if they try anything to threaten Taiwan.

You do realize I mean PRChina's military, not innocent civillian targets.

this man talking like he's the fake guarding angel from the heaven....

amaze me

[edit on 21-3-2007 by zhangxi0183]

Originally posted by iori_komei

I am aware of that, and I disapprove that we would not support them,
as the ROC is far more free and democratic than the PRC, and therefore
I support the ROC.

yeah,like your country also support the democratic country Saudi Arabia and help Israel bomb the undemocratic country Lebanon...right??

you know what,i start wondering whether you are very lack of basic knowledge or your government did very good brainwashing job..

Who's government brainwahed whom?
ahem..

Originally posted by Daedalus3
Who's government brainwahed whom?
ahem..

yeah,like your government always tell you that some country is brainwashing it's citizen....so what your government and media tell you is always the truth and people like from China is always brainwashed...I think that also can explain why almost 70% americans believe there is WAD in Iraq when the rest of the world don't believe...guess why they don't believe???they are brainwashed.......

and now the propagandiza machine powered up again and start to not only make it's own people believe but also make the rest of the world believe(which is unfortunately they don't believe,cause they are brianwashed... ) there are so many threats around united states...and united states is dying unless destroy these threats immediately..........

so again here we go.....your soldier bringing good wishes deliver democracy and freedom(include freedom of torture,freedom of rape,freedom of murder) elsewhere.....oh yeah...cheer..

and then when you people staying at home watching tv...feel so proud of your army...the most powerful man in your country start to collect the "harvest of invasion"(like oil... ) ....like iraqi people volunteered gave it's own oil to your business man........democracy win again...

you know what...there is one thing my government do brainwashed me..they always trying to tell me how wonderful and people are so kind in america,,,but after i came here ....i doubted


[edit on 21-3-2007 by zhangxi0183]

Originally posted by zhangxi0183

Originally posted by Daedalus3
Who's government brainwahed whom?
ahem..

yeah,like your government always tell you that some country is brainwashing it's citizen....so what your government and media tell you is always the truth and people like from China is always brainwashed...I think that also can explain why almost 70% americans believe there is WAD in Iraq when the rest of the world don't believe...guess why they don't believe???they are brainwashed.......

The rest of the world had the same intelligence that US officials had. Russia as well as the UK along with a host of other countrys had the same intel that we had which said saddam had WMDs. Saddam did nothing to help curb the speculation by restricting the UN inspections from certain buildings. So he didnt help matters...

As far as the US brainwashing its citizens. Talk about calling the kettle black!
Tianenmen Square ring a bell? How about the persecution of falun gong? the genocide in Tibet? The 30 million who perished during the Great Leap Forward, and the suppression of news about SARS? It goes on and on. All have been happily wiped out or erased from chinas history. Also ask yourself this, why does china feel the need to filter what its ppl can and cant see on the internet? The answer is that china is only letting its ppl see what they the government want them to see. In other words brainwashing them!

You are a prime example of a brainwashed citizen who has been tipping back one to many times on the good ole china juice that is propaganda!

[edited on 3-21-2007 by semperfoo]

[edit on 103131p://1403pm by semperfoo]

Originally posted by semperfoo
The rest of the world had the same intelligence that US officials had. Russia as well as the UK along with a host of other countrys had the same intel that we had which said saddam had WMDs. Saddam did nothing to help curb the speculation by restricting the UN inspections from certain buildings. So he didnt help matters...

As far as the US brainwashing its citizens. Talk about calling the kettle black!
Tianenmen Square ring a bell? How about the persecution of falun gong? the genocide in Tibet? The 30 million who perished during the Great Leap Forward, and the suppression of news about SARS? It goes on and on. All have been happily wiped out or erased from chinas history. Also ask yourself this, why does china feel the need to filter what its ppl can and cant see on the internet? The answer is that china is only letting its ppl see what they the government want them to see. In other words brainwashing them!

You are a prime example of a brainwashed citizen who has been tipping back one to many times on the good ole china juice that is propaganda!

[edited on 3-21-2007 by semperfoo]

[edit on 103131p://1403pm by semperfoo]

yeah,the rest of the world all believe what your government tell you to believe...wait....how did you know that??...your government told you so????? maybe that can explain why the CIA man who provided the fake WAD information rewarded by your government even after it has proven it's a fake information...

well,my guess when the FLG propagandize machine which US and Taiwan government give them financial support and your locale media start to make you believe how Chinese gorvernment torture them,,,they didn't mention that how many family were fall apart,how many people committed suicide because of practice FLG(which also happened in my family)....all they want you to know is that FLG is a religion(the so called master of FLG group---LI hongzhi probably lying on his extravagant home in newyork and laughing from his inside )...all they want you to believe is how rudeness the Chinese government is...and sure you do believe...

and wait a sec....your locale media probably didn't mention that FLG propagandize machine claimed that more 20 million ccp member has quit while there are 70 million ccp memeber in total.........and their master also claimed the ccp will collapse in 2004.....and....2005.....and.....2006...which is all past tense........good luck with that......

i don't like my government as most people of the world do.....but the fortunate thing is...my government aren't fictitious as your government..and they didn't do such good brainwash job as your government do....

[edit on 21-3-2007 by zhangxi0183]

I'd like to suggest that you put all things into one post, rather than
quoting me in three seperate posts.

Originally posted by zhangxi0183
laugh my ass off...i cann't believe that someone without basic knowledge could just talk like this...before you make comment,do some homework please...

This is a subject I have done a great deal of research on, so I have
much more than "basic knowledge" on it.

Originally posted by zhangxi0183
this man talking like he's the fake guarding angel from the heaven....

amaze me

Yeah, I have no idea what you are getting at with this.

Originally posted by zhangxi0183
yeah,like your country also support the democratic country Saudi Arabia and help Israel bomb the undemocratic country Lebanon...right??

you know what,i start wondering whether you are very lack of basic knowledge or your government did very good brainwashing job..

Saudi Arabia is not democratic, nor is it a country that should have
ever been given any support.

I dissaprove of the Israeli bombing of Lebanon, and think that more
should have been done in terms of disciplining and preventing Israel
for it.

I am smarter than the general population, of many countries and
generally do not like the government.



It is a great mistake on your part simply because I support the ROC
but do not like PRChina that I ma some right wing neocon, who thinks
his government is always right.

Originally posted by iori_komei
This is a subject I have done a great deal of research on, so I have
much more than "basic knowledge" on it.

dude,i suggest you check the paperwork officially released by government rather than some fancy website..

www.oxford.com.cn...

Originally posted by iori_komei
Saudi Arabia is not democratic, nor is it a country that should have
ever been given any support.

I dissaprove of the Israeli bombing of Lebanon, and think that more
should have been done in terms of disciplining and preventing Israel
for it.

well,whether you like it or not...your government already got the job done..it is not your call....

[edit on 22-3-2007 by zhangxi0183]

zhangxi0183


cant get the stupid yvid to work so heres the link.
www.youtube.com...

If my government was out to brainwash people like me, do you honestly think they would let me post the above video? After all its making fun of my government. Somthing that would be forbidden in china..Also this video aired on national TV here in the US on comedy central. The black dude in the video is known as dave chepelle. As I already have said, the above video was pulled off of one of his shows off comedy central which airs on American cable TV. Its all over the web to for any american to view.

As far as america brainwashing anybody in the run up to the Iraq war... Wheres your proof? Links? How about sources that validate your claims? I want proof, not your asshole opinion.

And more about the brainwashing... Was it our government that was responsible for brainwashing millions of americas to go out and protest the Iraq war? I think you give the United States government more credit then they deserve... So ya see? Your wrong in your anti american stereotypical point of view... Your theory just isnt fact..

And you might not even be able to view the above video due to the censorship the chinese government employs on its own citizens. Why is that?


[edit on 023131p://0803am by semperfoo]

Originally posted by semperfoo
If my government was out to brainwash people like me, do you honestly think they would let me post the above video? After all its making fun of my government. Somthing that would be forbidden in china..Also this video aired on national TV here in the US on comedy central. The black dude in the video is known as dave chepelle. As I already have said, the above video was pulled off of one of his shows off comedy central which airs on American cable TV. Its all over the web to for any american to view.

As far as america brainwashing anybody in the run up to the Iraq war... Wheres your proof? Links? How about sources that validate your claims? I want proof, not your asshole opinion.

And more about the brainwashing... Was it our government that was responsible for brainwashing millions of americas to go out and protest the Iraq war? I think you give the United States government more credit then they deserve... So ya see? Your wrong in your anti american stereotypical point of view... Your theory just isnt fact..

And you might not even be able to view the above video due to the censorship the chinese government employs on its own citizens. Why is that?
[edit on 023131p://0803am by semperfoo]

yeah...you can make fun of your government...all of the world know that you can make fun of your government,don't you think I don't know??who make you believe i don't know??? your government??
the reason why you can make fun of your government is because your government official isn't the most powerful man in your society..somebody is.....somebody financially support your politician and make them win in the election...

there is people in your country who oppose this war..but this doesn't make any difference....your amry are still out there...even more....to protect somebody's interests...

is what i'm saying a theory??...no it's not a theory....it's the fact,the truth...am I a anti-american people..no,i'm not...don't confuse anti-american with the truth...don't make anything you don't want to listen as anti-american....

you want prove????although you didn't give any prove of your "chinese-government torture and killing theory".....but when most of your people are convinced by your media propagandize machine trying to tell them how dangerous the situation are....when the majority of your people believe that your government WAD theory and believe that deliver democracy to the desert crap........what do you think????....still unbrainwashed????....

yes...my government is not a democratic government...but at least they won't tell me american people live in hell as your government tell you that chinese people cann't fun of their government on the internet...