Taiwan President talks Independence

Originally posted by iori_komei

There is a huge difference there, that being that we were invading both
times, and there military was integrated into or near civilian targets

and the homeland military bases of just about every country in the world are also located in and around civilian populations, as well as having civilian employees.

China does not have military complexes in the middle of Shanghai
or Hong Kong.

sorry, i didnt understand the point with that one. as mentioned above, they have huge military complexes in and around their home bases, just as we do in the US.

Add to that that we would onyl be taking out ther emilitary capabilities,
not try and invade/occupy the country.

and you seriously dont believe that a full scale war would erupt after such an attack? that's more than a little naive. china is not iraq or afganistan, and they possess a very formidable military, including nuclear weapons.

China would not use Nuclear warheads, as they know that in the time it
would take to attack the U.S. (as in the country), we would have already
launched atleast twice as many at them, and we would be able to take
out a good many of there missiles.

you are failing to take into account their allies. russia for instance, who, combined with china, certainly have enough nukes to insure nobody wins.

And overall China is not stupid enough to use Nuclear weapons, in fact
there are few countries that would.

and you know that how? turn the coin over.....what do you think our response would be if our homeland was attacked by a nuclear equipped country? we would knock them back to the stone ages, nevermind the consequences. what make you think china wouldnt respond just as fiercely?

CanadianGlasnost:

i see what you mean about him. all he is doing to spouting "i hate america" without contributing in any way to the thread.....we just ignore morons like that. eventually the mods will catch up to his ignorance.

Originally posted by snafu7700
CanadianGlasnost:

i see what you mean about him. all he is doing to spouting "i hate america" without contributing in any way to the thread.....we just ignore morons like that. eventually the mods will catch up to his ignorance.

Americans always regard themself as Angell, but
the rest of the world don't think so.
There must be someone stand out and tell you the truth,
before you make fatal mistake.:-)

Originally posted by gs001
Americans always regard themself as Angell, but
the rest of the world don't think so.
There must be someone stand out and tell you the truth,
before you make fatal mistake.:-)

and from what country do you hail? because i guarantee it's history is not angelic either.

Originally posted by snafu7700
and from what country do you hail? because i guarantee it's history is not angelic either.

my country is not angelical
but fortunately, my country doesn't get that bad reputation as yours.
World view of United States role goes from bad to worse

[edit on 7-3-2007 by gs001]

Originally posted by semperfoo
Good for Taiwan.

Some people seem to forget the security pact that the US signed in 1979 with Taiwan. It is our obligation to defend the island if it is attacked by the commies. Japan and Australia both signed security pacts with Taiwan I believe as well..

What pact? The pact that states that the U.S. would drop support of Taiwan if the President officially declares independence?

You seem to not fear a showdown betweent he U.S. and China... you obviously don't know the consequences of a war like that in terms of the global economy, stabilization and security. Even a rumor of a war like that would destroy the world markets and we're not even going to begin talking about casualties of war WITHOUT NUKES being involved.

semper, war ISN'T going to happen anytime soon between the U.S. and China... if you know anything about the situation in Taiwan, you'd realize that the President is nothing but a lameduck extremist and that the KMT party (which favors reunification) controls parliament and is obviously going to control the presidency once again.

This isn't good news for Taiwan... the President is an extremist and is just way out there. The people of Taiwan are sick of him (approval rating = 10% / KMT party winning parliament seats in a landslide / him nearly getting recalled / him issuing 14 apologies to the people of Taiwan) and in no way agree with what he says.

Oh, and what the hell does the U.S. even have to do with Taiwan? Taiwan is a Chinese affair, or AT THE LEAST a regional affair... How would the U.S. like it if China began meddling in Central and South America? Extactly...


[edit on 7-3-2007 by k4rupt]

Originally posted by k4rupt
Oh, and what the hell does the U.S. even have to do with Taiwan? Taiwan is a Chinese affair, or AT THE LEAST a regional affair... How would the U.S. like it if China began meddling in Central and South America? Extactly...

You mean like it is now, not that I have a problem with that though,
what countries in Central and South America want to do, and who
they want to associate with is there bsuiness.

It is not a fair comparison.


[edit on 3/7/2007 by iori_komei]

Fair comparison? You've got to be kiddin me right?

The Unitd States has NUMEROUS military bases and air bases AROUND China with the ability to bomb any Chinese city within an hour. When the Chinese sent military advisers to train some S. American soldiers, everyone on here went ballistic, crying out "WAR! EVIL CHINESE THREAT!"

Don't even dare talk to me about "fair comparison."

I said it was NOT a fair comparison.

And besides that, I was talking about relations between America and
the Republic of China Taiwan in comparison between the Peoples
Republic of China and Central/South American countries.


I could care less if the PRC helps in troop training of Central/South
American countries.

The relationship between the Republic of China and the U.S. is simple - the U.S. will back it up in an aggressive attack BUT WILL NOT back them up against a mainland attack if the President makes any move towards declaring official independence.

Mainland China has declared that it would only attack Taiwan if the President would officially declare independence.

In reality, looking at the politics as it is in Taiwan, immediate reunification seems to be a lot more probable than independence. The KMT, pro-reunification party, controls parliament and the lame-duck President is about to get booted and replaced with a KMT member.

Originally posted by k4rupt
The relationship between the Republic of China and the U.S. is simple - the U.S. will back it up in an aggressive attack BUT WILL NOT back them up against a mainland attack if the President makes any move towards declaring official independence.

I am aware of that, and I disapprove that we would not support them,
as the ROC is far more free and democratic than the PRC, and therefore
I support the ROC.

Mainland China has declared that it would only attack Taiwan if the President would officially declare independence.

I have to check, bu I do recall reading there were a few other things it
would attack Taiwan over, not just declaring Independence.

In reality, looking at the politics as it is in Taiwan, immediate reunification seems to be a lot more probable than independence. The KMT, pro-reunification party, controls parliament and the lame-duck President is about to get booted and replaced with a KMT member.

From what I understand, both sides have become very moderate, as
they were not getting alot of support by promoting the extremes all
the time.

I do understand that the majority of people like how things are as they
are now, and many consider themselves a sovereign entity, they just
don't officially state it because of the PRC's threats.


However, an interesting note that I read, 15% of people in Taiwan
would support Taiwan seeking to become a state of the United States.

Originally posted by gs001

my country is not angelical
but fortunately, my country doesn't get that bad reputation as yours.

you dont have courage to admit what country you are from, therefore whatever you have to say about mine is worthless.

Originally posted by iori_komei

I am aware of that, and I disapprove that we would not support them,
as the ROC is far more free and democratic than the PRC, and therefore
I support the ROC.

So what, what does the U.S. have to do with Taiwan? Again, it is a Chinese affair, it doesn't matter what your opinion is.

I have to check, bu I do recall reading there were a few other things it
would attack Taiwan over, not just declaring Independence.

Like what?

From what I understand, both sides have become very moderate, as
they were not getting alot of support by promoting the extremes all
the time.

I do understand that the majority of people like how things are as they
are now, and many consider themselves a sovereign entity, they just
don't officially state it because of the PRC's threats.

A poll suggested that 15% of Taiwan wants independence, 15% want reunification, and the rest would like the status quo- EVENTUAL reunification with the mainland when the mainland has adopted more democratic principles.

However, an interesting note that I read, 15% of people in Taiwan
would support Taiwan seeking to become a state of the United States.

Where in the hell? That is beyond ridiculous, I would like to take a look at that read.

Originally posted by k4rupt
So what, what does the U.S. have to do with Taiwan? Again, it is a Chinese affair, it doesn't matter what your opinion is.

Since China is a free, democratic state, the U.S. should protect it from
a not free-democratic state, call it world police or whatever, but that is
how things are suppose to work, you promote freedom and democracy
by protecting it, not sitting idly watching it be degraded.

Like what?

When i find the source I read it from, I will provide a link, and exactly
what, I have been trying to find it for about an hour and a half.

Where in the hell? That is beyond ridiculous, I would like to take a look at that read.

Same answer as the above, when I find thesource article, I'll post it for
your viewing.

Originally posted by k4rupt
semper, war ISN'T going to happen anytime soon between the U.S. and China... if you know anything about the situation in Taiwan, you'd realize that the President is nothing but a lameduck extremist and that the KMT party (which favors reunification) controls parliament and is obviously going to control the presidency once again.

This isn't good news for Taiwan... the President is an extremist and is just way out there. The people of Taiwan are sick of him (approval rating = 10% / KMT party winning parliament seats in a landslide / him nearly getting recalled / him issuing 14 apologies to the people of Taiwan) and in no way agree with what he says.

Oh, and what the hell does the U.S. even have to do with Taiwan? Taiwan is a Chinese affair, or AT THE LEAST a regional affair... How would the U.S. like it if China began meddling in Central and South America? Extactly...

Then why is china building up its military? Its to attack taiwan.. Why would they attack taiwan if it was only a 1 mad man wanting independence? Your painting a picture that everything is just peachy between taiwan and china. And to a degree it may very well be.. But why would they use military force on a island that isnt theirs to begin with? Answer, China wants to be a regional power while still being in a communist run state. They use the excuse that taiwan is a part of china so they can get their agenda under way by making it seem "justifiable". Chinas become paranoid. In order to better assert there regional dominance they need to do away with the democracy's that surround them. Namely taiwan and japan, that are heavily backed by the USA. They dont want the democratic influence on the populace inside china. so they take out the threats so they can continue on their communist life style.

America is the worlds sole remaining superpower. What ever isnt their buisness becomes their business due to superiority... You dont have to like it, but thats just the way it is...

Look at it as the worlds greatest democracy coming to the rescue of a fledgling democracy in the face of the worlds greatest threat, communism. Its our duty to please that booty.

[edit on 113131p://2803pm by semperfoo]

I really am getting tired of saying this..

China is not a Communist country, it is a Leninist/Maoist country
based on some Communist ideals, that has on the recent past started
to become more capitalistic.




Now, onto what I actually came to this thread to post.

k4rupt, I am still trying to find the article that stated that 15% of
Taiwanese would'nt mind becoming a state of the U.S.A, however I did
find a copy, on wikipedia of the five things that the PRC has said it will
take military action against the ROC over.

1. Taiwan formally declaring independence.
2. Taiwan forms a military alliance with a foreign power.
3. Internal turmoil within Taiwan.
4. Taiwan gains Weapons of Mass Destruction.
5. Taiwan refuses to negotiate with the PRC on the one China policy.

Wiki Link

[edit on 3/7/2007 by iori_komei]

Originally posted by snafu7700
you dont have courage to admit what country you are from, therefore whatever you have to say about mine is worthless.

Needs courage? no.
I come from the very country which someone in this thread wants
to bomb into the stone age.

Okay guys, seriously, cut the crap. This isn't a personal flame fest, you can do that on your own time on MSN.


Shal we get back to the actual subject?

A close friend of mine, Hung, we all called him Harry, is from Taiwan. Unfortunately his citizenship is still declared to be Taiwan, and he personally is scared ****less that China will attempt to take Taiwan back.

Essentially if Taiwan gets into a conflict, he would be sent back to Taiwan to defend it.
As much as he likes Taiwan being somewhat independant of China, he also feels that both sides are a little too hot headed about the current situation to trust them not to engage in war.
Of course, he knows that Taiwan wouldnt stand a chance against China, and the battle would be over in about a week if it did occur.

Unfortunately there's quite a bit of anger between the people of Taiwan and China... it's not just their governments.
I can't remember what it is the Chieese call the Taiwanese, but I remember it wasn't exactly settling to hear the english translation of it.


And seriously people, whats with the "bomb them" crap? The Americans of most people should know just how rediculously large the Chinees military is. Mandatory military service... million man army... any of these terms refresh your memory?

Anyhow, I know the China versus Taiwan scenario is a touchy subject for alot of people, but we can at least keep things resembling something respectable in here can't we?

If you're about to reply back in anger, I suggest you read a few other threads for a while and calm down... then come back and post rationally.

Originally posted by gs001

I come from the very country which someone in this thread wants
to bomb into the stone age.

so you come from a country in which you cannot get a fair trial, and millions of people have been executed or sent to labor camps simply for disagreeing publicly with the government and wanting freedom. sure, you've got every right to call americans "warmongers" and celebrate the death of brave soldiers. guess your history classes dont teach you about how we warmongering americans liberated you from japan's tyranny.

preach your propaganda someplace else, troll.

Originally posted by semperfoo


Then why is china building up its military? Its to attack taiwan..

Then why does the United States... 5% of the world's population account for 50% of the world's military budget. Same reason.

Why would they attack taiwan if it was only a 1 mad man wanting independence?

Uh... last I checked, the PRC ISN'T attacking Taiwan.

Your painting a picture that everything is just peachy between taiwan and china. And to a degree it may very well be.. But why would they use military force on a island that isnt theirs to begin with?

Isn't theirs? Who is "theirs." Taiwan's constitution states it VERY clearly that the COUNTRY of Taiwan does not exist... rather the REPUBLIC of China exists and that Taiwan is a province of that. The official capitol of the country is in Nanking, mainland China... Taiwan belongs to the Republic of China and the Republic of China belongs to the Chinese - it's really as simple as that.

Answer, China wants to be a regional power while still being in a communist run state.

Uh... China IS a regional power...

They use the excuse that taiwan is a part of china so they can get their agenda under way by making it seem "justifiable". Chinas become paranoid. In order to better assert there regional dominance they need to do away with the democracy's that surround them. Namely taiwan and japan, that are heavily backed by the USA. They dont want the democratic influence on the populace inside china. so they take out the threats so they can continue on their communist life style.

They don't want democratic influence? There ARE already democratic influences in mainland and the leadership in China are slowly heading towards demcoracy - the premier has stated that democracy would be the eventual destination for China and there are already limited voting and democracy in China.

America is the worlds sole remaining superpower. What ever isnt their buisness becomes their business due to superiority... You dont have to like it, but thats just the way it is...

Ah... wasn't that the reason for invading Iraq? LOL

You're right, the United States is the world's most powerful nation, theres no argument against that - but believe me, the United States IS FAR from able to control the world or even it's influences/allies right now. And just because the U.S. is the world's largest power, it doesn't justify it to meddle in other nations affairs. In your logic then, Russia should have COMPLETE right to meddle in Central Asian affairs because it is a superpower as well... lol.

Look at it as the worlds greatest democracy coming to the rescue of a fledgling democracy in the face of the worlds greatest threat, communism. Its our duty to please that booty.

[edit on 113131p://2803pm by semperfoo]

You're duty? Who's duty? The US, EU, UN all agree that Taiwan belongs to China. Even France has stated that it would not help Taiwan in an event that China decides to attack Taiwan for whatever reason AND the US has stated that they would drop all support for Taiwan if the President declares independence.



[edit on 8-3-2007 by k4rupt]