Real Talk about White Privilege

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
I agree, but I have to concede that they were 'trail-blazing' a bit with the concept. A survey like this had never been done before. Maybe they'll get it right the next time around.

Throwing around ideas is one thing; asking leading and heavily biased questions in a covert attempt to push one`s own worldview on "highly impressionable kids" (to use your own wording from the evolution/creationism example) is quite another.

Anyone can arrange anything they want. This is not indicative of any sort of 'priviledge'; rather, it`s called free will.

Not true. In order to participate fully in the economy, black people have to spend time with "people whom I was trained to mistrust and who have learned to mistrust my kind or me," or however you want to phrase it.

Sorry, I`m not entirely clear as to what you`re trying to say here. Are you inferring that it`s in some way undesirable in the eyes of blacks to encounter whites? If that isn`t the point you were attempting to convey, then why would the issue be a point of contention at all? Allow me to clarify my question; if there isn`t some subtle negative association in the idea of encountering a white person inherent in your statement, then why would you be objecting to the concept in the first place?

If one wishes to move, they would need to choose an area that fits both criteria. This is called 'economics'. It has nothing to do with bias.

Talk about missing the point. He was trying to address instances in which the hypothetical "you" can afford to buy the house, wants to buy the house, but is 'discouraged,' if you know what I mean. I can imagine that that only happens very rarely to white people, if at all.

I think I understand what you mean, but you have a highly idealized concept of the experience of Americans of European descent if you`re under the impression that whites encounter discrimination "rarely, if at all". You`re failing to take into account any other sources of discrimination that may be targeted toward the white person in question: discrimination based on gender, religion, sexual orientation, and yes racial discrimination against whites, which does indeed take place, regardless of what anyone may state otherwise.

this statement is structured so as to convey the assertion that the existance of 'systemic racism' is an undeniable fact.

Yes, it is. I don't know where you studied, but in every sociology class I ever took, that was a given. Just because a lot of people choose to live in ignorance, the facts don't change.

The fact that a majority of sociology professors believe in a given concept dosen`t make said concept objectively true.

Not true. In order to participate fully in the economy, black people have to spend time with "people whom I was trained to mistrust and who have learned to mistrust my kind or me," or however you want to phrase it.

Are there no blacks involved with the economy?
www.minoritybank.com...

www.unitedbankofphiladelphia.com...
www.unitedbankofphiladelphia.com...

Looks like you could take care of all your financial needs there if you so choose.

Whites have no such restriction

No one is restricted in this country as to any service industry. You choose who you deal with. The options are there if you choose to look around.

If they so chose, a white person could live and die in this country without ever seeing a black person in real life.

And there are places a black person could choose to live where there are no white people.

"Systematic racism" is a fact? Gee I thought that the civil rights movement got rid of that. Were laws not enacted to make that behavior illegal?

I hardly get financial opportunity for college based on my grades. I don't get to drive around a nice fancy car. I work a full-time job and go to college full-time. I can read, write, perform complex mathematical operations. I pay attention and have earned everything I have. Yet there is something that keeps me from being all I can be. I'm white.

I don't get extra fincancial aid for the color of my skin. I get blamed for my "ancestors" wrong doings. My ancestors aren't from the US. It has been over 120 years and I am still punish for what a bunch of people, both white and non-white helped aid. Slavery is over and done with and abolished in the US. If anything white people are now the slaves, slaves to society. We pay taxes, we go to work everyday, and we pay for welfare which should not be in affect today. It should only be an emergency need, not a way to not work and to feed off of the government. There are plenty of jobs in the US, I know, I've had to work them. Yeah, you have to swollow your pride on some, but you are better off in the end.

How about watching "American History X" and wake up. Racism is real, but it's on all sides, not just the white side. We need to grow up and take responsibility for our actions, suck it up and deal. I was not given opportunity at all, I had to fight for it. No one just deserves anything, work hard for it and it will be yours.

Enough said.

Originally posted by wagnerian21
asking leading and heavily biased questions in a covert attempt to push one`s own worldview on "highly impressionable kids"...

I wasn't aware that they were pushing the idea on kids, 'covertly' at that. Is that what you're saying?

Are you inferring that it`s in some way undesirable in the eyes of blacks to encounter whites?

Um, no... I'm using the parameters set by the question, which already infers that the responder was "trained to mistrust" the other race.

I am not defending the behavior; I'm saying that, if you had been "trained to mistrust" black people (assuming you're white, at least phenotypically so), it would be possible for you to arrange your life in such a way so as to never encounter a black person. The same is not true for blacks.

If that isn`t the point you were attempting to convey, then why would the issue be a point of contention at all?

Because there will always be people who prefer to 'be with their own'. It definitely shouldn't be made official in any way (ie, No Blacks/Whites Allowed), but if you live in an all black/white area, you can reasonably expect that everyone you encounter will be black/white.

I'm not really surprised, since this country still has a lot of open wounds left over from race-relations of the 20th c. Everyone has been affected in some way. Naturally.

some subtle negative association in the idea of encountering a white person inherent in your statement

That is very funny to me considering the fact that I chose to attend both prep school and college with, you guessed it, white people.

Don't try too hard to read into my posts. I generally say exactly what I mean, without any sneaky implications.

...you have a highly idealized concept of the experience of Americans of European descent if you`re under the impression that whites encounter discrimination "rarely, if at all".

I am not talking about general discrimination one may encounter in life. I'm talking about housing discrimination, and I think the author of the study was as well.

You`re failing to take into account any other sources of discrimination

No, I'm not. Those other sources of discrimination were not mentioned in the question. You're generalizing, based on how I responded to one very specific example.

The fact that a majority of sociology professors believe in a given concept dosen`t make said concept objectively true.

Actually, it kinda does. It's called 'peer review': either your paper passes or it doesn't. Pseudoscience usually doesn't, in any discipline.

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
In order to participate fully in the economy, black people have to spend time with "people whom I was trained to mistrust and who have learned to mistrust my kind or me," or however you want to phrase it.

Who taught you not to trust these people with white skin and who taught them not to trust you because you're black? And how's that working?

My parents taught me not to trust black people. How about yours? I became educated. I took a chance. I threw off the ignorance! How about you?

And yes, black people have still done me wrong, but I refuse to buy the old story that it's because of our skin color! I refuse to continue the prejudice that my parents taught me! I deny THEIR ignorance!

Whites have no such restriction. If they so chose, a white person could live and die in this country without ever seeing a black person in real life.

What??? If a black person chose, they could also live and die in this country without ever seeing a white person. It would be stupid, but they could isolate themselves. And what's the point of that?

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
He was trying to address instances in which the hypothetical "you" can afford to buy the house, wants to buy the house, but is 'discouraged,' if you know what I mean.

Would you please tell me of your personal experience with this? Because I have been "discouraged" by others but I did it anyway. Listening to the "discouragement" feeds racism and I refuse.

Originally posted by wagnerian21
I think I understand what you mean, but you have a highly idealized concept of the experience of Americans of European descent if you`re under the impression that whites encounter discrimination "rarely, if at all".

This is an IMPORTANT point! I get the feeling from reading here that some posters here (and perhaps others) have some kind of idealized view of "what it's like to be white". If that's the case, if you think we don't run into discrimination, and yes, even racial discrimination, you're simply wrong.

There are many kinds of discrimination. Granted, blacks experience more racial discrimination than whites do (to my knowledge, anyway) but remember there are 8 times more white people than black, so yeah, blacks are going to experience it more by the numbers.

I acknowledge white privilege, but after hearing some of the thoughts and seeing the lists and so on, I'm not AT ALL sure we have the same idea of what white privilege actually means.

Too many times, I hear this idealized perception of what whites don't have to deal with or have access to in life and I get the idea that blacks (in general) think our days are filled with birds singing and people giving us whatever we want and closed-door meetings where cash and opportunities flow from the other side of the rainbow.

But make no mistake. We live in the same nasty, dirty, selfish, dangerous world that you do. Our experiences aren't all that different. Of course, that shatters the justification for us owing something for our privilege, but the fact remains.

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
I am not defending the behavior; I'm saying that, if you had been "trained to mistrust" black people (assuming you're white, at least phenotypically so), it would be possible for you to arrange your life in such a way so as to never encounter a black person. The same is not true for blacks.

Because there will always be people who prefer to 'be with their own'. It definitely shouldn't be made official in any way (ie, No Blacks/Whites Allowed), but if you live in an all black/white area, you can reasonably expect that everyone you encounter will be black/white.

These two quotes contradict each other. In the first you say that blacks can't avoid whites even if they wanted to. In the second you say that living in an all-black community, it's reasonable to expect that everyone you encounter will be black.

I agree with the second. Anyone can arrange their lives so as to avoid the other race. I just can't figure out any possible advantage to that. All that does is further racism.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
These two quotes contradict each other.

No, they do not. And why do you keep accusing me of things instead of just asking what I meant?

If you live in an all-white community, it's reasonable to expect that everyone you encounter will be white.

If you live in an all-black community, although it's reasonable to expect that everyone you encounter will be black, that is not the case.

I just can't figure out any possible advantage to that. All that does is further racism.

In some cases. In others, it allows victims of racism a needed respite, during which they can emotionally heal, and re-enter general (mixed) society.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Who taught you not to trust these people with white skin and who taught them not to trust you because you're black? And how's that working?

Who said that I felt that way? You did see those quotation marks, right?

You know some of my personal history, how could you possibly think that about me? Why are you acting like you've never spoken to me before? What is with you?

But, as this involves the thread, if I did feel that way, so what? What business is it of yours? We were talking about a question in a poll. Again,

I'm using the parameters set by the question, which already infers that the responder was "trained to mistrust" the other race.

So much for reading my posts, huh?

I became educated... How about you?

Let's not get into comparing our educations... really.

If a black person chose, they could also live and die in this country without ever seeing a white person.

Where? Give me, I don't know, three examples.

Would you please tell me of your personal experience with this?

What difference does it make? We are talking about a poll, people! I don't matter, the people taking the poll mattered.

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
Who said that I felt that way? You did see those quotation marks, right?

I was using the generic "you", speaking to black people who don't trust white people. I don't think YOU feel that way. A misunderstanding.

You know some of my personal history, how could you possibly think that about me?

I don't. There's nothing with me. I know you pretty well and I don't think that about you. I was responding to the quote.

Let's not get into comparing our educations... really.

Ouch! C'mon, HH. There's NO WAY my formal education can compare with yours and everyone knows that, most of all me. You may remember that I didn't attend high school, even! Again, I was speaking as if I were talking to people who felt that way, not you personally.

Mea Culpa. I wasn't clear.

And I didn't mean formal education, anyway. I meant being educated about race, other races. I meant spending time with people of other races to get educated about people.

Where? Give me, I don't know, three examples.

I'm sure there are places in the deep south, rural counties and small towns... maybe even communities in Detroit or Chicago's south side that if one WANTED to avoid seeing white people, they could. I'm sure of it but I could be wrong.

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
If you live in an all-white community, it's reasonable to expect that everyone you encounter will be white.

If you live in an all-black community, although it's reasonable to expect that everyone you encounter will be black, that is not the case.

Then it's not an all-black community.

Do you notice how many times I've used this emoticon? I just don't understand that logic at all. Why is it not the case? What forces someone to encounter white people? I'm sorry, but I don't get this.

I'm not accusing you. I saw 2 "seemingly" conflicting statements (and I still do) and I pointed it out.

How about if you stop assuming that I'm attacking you? That might go a long way in you feeling like there's something with me.



[edit on 26-2-2007 by Benevolent Heretic]

Originally posted by HarlemHottie

If a black person chose, they could also live and die in this country without ever seeing a white person.

Where? Give me, I don't know, three examples.

Here are 3 all-black towns or communities.
Taylortown, NC

Eatonville, FL

Mound Bayou, MS

I said it could be done. I didn't say it would be easy. And, until recently, we didn't have black people in my town at all. Now we do. I think this is a good thing.

Originally posted by HarlemHottie

Originally posted by wagnerian21
asking leading and heavily biased questions in a covert attempt to push one`s own worldview on "highly impressionable kids"...

I wasn't aware that they were pushing the idea on kids, 'covertly' at that. Is that what you're saying?

It is. You pretty much attested to the truth of my assertion that the concept of 'white priviledge' and institutional racism are being pushed on kids when you made your statement (paraphrased): "in every sociology class I`ve ever been in, it`s pretty much a given".

I do concede that my use of the word 'covert' was inaccurate. It`s rather overtly preached in almost every institution of higher education these days, actually.

Are you inferring that it`s in some way undesirable in the eyes of blacks to encounter whites?

Um, no... I'm using the parameters set by the question, which already infers that the responder was "trained to mistrust" the other race.

I am not defending the behavior; I'm saying that, if you had been "trained to mistrust" black people (assuming you're white, at least phenotypically so), it would be possible for you to arrange your life in such a way so as to never encounter a black person. The same is not true for blacks.

I am white, yes.

The assertion that "it would be possible for (me) to arrange (my) life in such a way so as to never encounter a black person." Is a rather huge leap of logic. I suppose there may be monocultural enclaves remaining somewhere in this country; offhand, though, I couldn`t list them. And any citizen with a driver`s license is allowed to travel anywhere in the country he or she desires. Those facts considered, I`d imagine it would be rather difficult for anyone to arrange the details of his or her life anymore to avoid a person of any given racial background with any degree of confidence in achieving that goal.

...you have a highly idealized concept of the experience of Americans of European descent if you`re under the impression that whites encounter discrimination "rarely, if at all".

I am not talking about general discrimination one may encounter in life. I'm talking about housing discrimination, and I think the author of the study was as well.

But see, that`s the thing, because we`re not really just talking about housing discrimination here; housing discrimination could spring from a multitude of motivations, including the religion, sexual orientation, age of the applicant, whatever. You and I both know that when McIntosh was writing that question, she wasn`t envisioning someone being excluded from housing because they were in their twenties or because they happened to be Buddist or Wiccan or what-have-you. She was thinking of racial discrimination in housing, and the subtle inference is 'whites have it easy'. Which is the subtle assertion that the whole theory of 'white priviledge' is built from. And it just ain`t the case.

The fact that a majority of sociology professors believe in a given concept dosen`t make said concept objectively true.

Actually, it kinda does. It's called 'peer review': either your paper passes or it doesn't. Pseudoscience usually doesn't, in any discipline.

You are aware there`s a difference between the world of academia and the real world, right? Things don`t always work the way your professor told you they will. Forgive the rhetoric, but academics were once firmly convinced the earth was flat. I think it was Nietzsche who said that it`s a prejudice inherent to each era to believe it`s accepted truths are superior to those of each era preceeding it.

EDIT: fixed quote tags.

[edit on 27-2-2007 by wagnerian21]

Originally posted by HarlemHottie

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I just can't figure out any possible advantage to that. All that does is further racism.

In some cases. In others, it allows victims of racism a needed respite, during which they can emotionally heal, and re-enter general (mixed) society.

Do you really believe, do you expect us to believe, that this is true? People are so emotionally fragile as to need an oasis to recuperate from everyday life?

Originally posted by HarlemHottie

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

I became educated... How about you?

Let's not get into comparing our educations... really.

What a presumptuos and condescending statement. So, you pretend to be so "highly educated" because you attended a prep-school? It says nothing about comparative intelligence. If I knew nothing about either of you, and read this thread, I would guess that BH had the benefit of a better education, if only because of her approach to and discussion of topics. Her obvious intelligence proves me out.

Originally posted by wagnerian21
I suppose there may be monocultural enclaves remaining somewhere in this country; offhand, though, I couldn`t list them.

That's the thing. There ARE monocultural enclaves (I like the way you talk, mister!) still existing in the US, but they're few and far between. More and more, the actual 'melting' of the cultures here is taking place. Maybe not between all the races, but black and white for sure.

I see more and more blacks (and affluent blacks) on TV as well as in RL. It's a slow process, but it's happening.

And any citizen with a driver`s license is allowed to travel anywhere in the country he or she desires. Those facts considered, I`d imagine it would be rather difficult for anyone to arrange the details of his or her life anymore to avoid a person of any given racial background with any degree of confidence in achieving that goal.

My point was that if it was desired, and depending how important it was to an individual, it could be done. I don't see the benefit, however.

But see, that`s the thing, because we`re not really just talking about housing discrimination here; housing discrimination could spring from a multitude of motivations, including the religion, sexual orientation, age of the applicant, whatever.

In many of these discussions, I've seen an apparent effort to remove other factors from the discussion. (HH - it's not that I'm talking like you're not here, I'm just speaking TO wagnerian21) For example, wealth is a huge factor in race discussions. It's also a factor in a discussion of discrimination. As are religion, gender and sexual orientation. But when I've brought them up, I get reminded that we're talking about race here. And it's my opinion that we can't ignore these other aspects and get an overall ACCURATE understanding of the racial and cultural experience here in the US.

We all know that racism is alive and well. Racism against minorities. That's a given. But to omit the other aspects or culture in these United States distorts the big picture. We can talk about race alone, but to get an accurate idea of the benefits of this "White Privilege", I think it's only fair to include other aspects. Here's why:

She was thinking of racial discrimination in housing, and the subtle inference is 'whites have it easy'. Which is the subtle assertion that the whole theory of 'white priviledge' is built from. And it just ain`t the case.

I'm getting the impression that some people think that
"white privilege" = "whites have it easy" = "ALL whites have it easier than ALL blacks" = "It's better to be white than black"
And that's simply inaccurate. And everyone should be aware of that. There are so many other factors to consider. And that's too simplistic a formula to believe to be the truth.

I am getting the impression that this theory is another excuse for people with low self esteem.
en.wikipedia.org...(sociology)
Whites can turn on the television or read the newspaper and expect to see members of their own race widely represented
I would expect to see what program is on the channel I CHOOSE to watch.

Whites can expect their children to read books and materials in school that affirm and discuss the history of their race
Except in February

Whites can swear, dress in second-hand clothes, or not answer letters, without having others attribute these behaviors to the bad morals, the poverty, or the illiteracy of their race
Who cares what others think? Stereotypes only work for people with no life experience with those of other races. People are people.

Whites can speak their opinions without being asked to speak for their race
LOL is there a "spokesman" for any race?

Whites can do well without being called credits to their race
Again who cares what others think?

Whites easily locate books, greeting cards, toys, and magazines prominently featuring members of their race
www.cafepress.com...
gee that was hard

Whites do not have to wonder whether they are being singled out because of their race when being approached by the police
Blacks aren't the only ones apprehensive of the police these days

Whites can take jobs without accusations that they were hired as part of racial quotas
Again who cares what other people say or think?

Whites are most often evaluated by members of their own race
In the 2000 census 69% of the U.S. population was white. So statistically speaking there is a good chance a white persons supervisor is white.

Whites do not appear threatening to those of the dominant culture
Gee why would whites appear threatening to whites? That is just dumb.

Whites, espcially White males have higher incomes than African or Hispanic Americans
What does that have to do with the topic.

Originally posted by shooterbrody
Whites can turn on the television or read the newspaper and expect to see members of their own race widely represented

I think a lot of these things USED to be true. But we're moving at a record pace to a more integrated society. A lot is still true. But black people have more access than they ever have. There are more groups that discuss and support these issues and more books, magazine and internet articals all the time addressing them. I think it's good and necessary.

Whites can swear, dress in second-hand clothes, or not answer letters, without having others attribute these behaviors to the bad morals, the poverty, or the illiteracy of their race

I had to laugh at this one. My husband and I get judged ALL THE TIME because of our "casual" dress, language and attitude. We get the "evil eye" in the bank all the time, until they look up our account. It's especially funny when we go to buy a car or something big. People wonder how we'll ever afford it. You can tell by the questions they ask. Then we write check for the car and blow them away. (Of course we saved for it beforehand. We do that with EVERYTHING and always have, because we don't hold credit)

Whites can do well without being called credits to their race

If someone said that to me (or a credit to my gender or whatever) I'd laugh in their face! Really hard! What ignorance! And who cares what ignorant people think? Thicken that skin, people!

Whites can take jobs without accusations that they were hired as part of racial quotas

There may be some truth to this, but that's because there are systems in place FOR minorities to make sure they get jobs. If this isn't "biting the hand that feeds you", I don't know what is.

But it's not entirely true. I've had accusations that I was hired for my looks and because I'm a woman and because I slept with the boss (which I didn't). And once, because I was white!

Whites do not appear threatening to those of the dominant culture

Blacks don't either. Nobody appears threatening to the dominant culture (the wealthy corrupt). That's why they're the dominant culture and we're not!

That depends on where you grow up ... "White priveledges" ... Is so RACIAL ... ... How can you tell me that White Privedges are EQUAL .. I can't even go into a conveinant store and buy Cigarrettes without being carded because the store Clerks are afrain I am TABC .... Texas Alchohol Beverage Commision for all of you that have no clue to what I am talking about. Anyways ... the only reason I know about it ... is because I had to go through all kinda courses on that stuff. Anyways ... me getting discriminated against or not being able to drive through 2nd 3rd or 4th ward of Houston without being looked at like I am outta place ... Is that White Privledges ... Or what about all of the other government resources to Minorities. Especially around my area HUD ... There are two or three different people that I know; that work about 20 hours a week and are getting 90% of thier housing paid for that drive 2006 cars Chevy Malibu to be Exact and have 2500 in Rims and Tires on them and they are also on Food Stamps ... They don't have to buy hardly anything they get everything HANDED to them ... Then what they do with thier spare time is sit around doing ILLEGAL things. Which I actually used to partake of with them ... But think god for my Finacee that woke me up and made me realize that I was wasting my life away. Anyways ... I am sure White's have so many more privledges than any other civilians but it is not that way here in TEXAS. Especially since that dragging in Jasper a couple years ago ... Talk about Sensitive subject ..... and most people just ROAR up .... and want to fight and run away because there was much much much more to that then any of YOU will ever know.

It's good to see you acknowledge the reality of white privilege, uber. And yes, chauvanism and homophobia are also real issues in America.

Originally posted by ubermunche[/]

Truthseeka do you post this topic because of a real passion and desire to achieve equality for all in our society, or is it guided by the need to promote the black community only.

Honestly, I'm not trying to create equality for all with this thread. How the hell can ONE person eradicate something as old and influential as white privilege?

That said, I'm not presenting this as a black-only issue, though this is primarily how white privilege plays out, in black and white. Other minorities are lumped in with blacks as non-whites with this phenomenon. One of the best descriptions of white privilege I have seen was from a Chinese guy.

I do NOT want to reverse white privilege. I'm just pointing it out. And, I'd like to say that I don't approve of the prejudice you have received from black people for being gay. I can clearly see your point on blacks and gays having a number of things in common, as far as American society goes. All I can say is good luck to you and other gay people in receiving the same rights as straight people; history shows that the dominant culture will eventually give way.