--- Freemasons and Monotheists worship Satan

I think what DerekOneSeven is getting at, is that the manifest human experience isn't worth all the pain.

In other words: He seems to be implying that it would be better if the Ain Soph Atoms would not have descended from the bosom of AIN, the Unmanifest Absolute.

Or perhaps if Abba and Aima would not have given birth to Chesed from Daath.

Or perhaps if Netzach would not have unfolded from Tiphereth.

I'm not sure where he's drawing the line.


Either way, this attitude would be seen as weak by many; as said attitutude is, what Krishnamurti referred to as, to deny What IS.


So, here we are.

We may as well deal with it, and realize the interdependent nature of all that exists, so that we don't keep creating more suffering.


Pain is not the result of manifest Being or that which is between Ain Soph Aur and Yesod.

Pain is the result of excessive desire which has its origins in, the fall into Malkuth(the physical world) from Yesod(Eden).

Pain is not the result of Being, or even the result of existence necessarily.

Pain is the result of the craving-desire for existence and/or the craving-desire for non-existence.

Craving and Aversion.




However:

Jehovah, Lucifer, Christ

...If the human being had not eaten from the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge, he would have risen to the Angelic state, yet he would have done it in a primeval innocence. In Eden, in relation to the Lord Jehovah, we were as the fingers of the hand are in relation to the brain.

However, Lucifer gave us independence. The forbidden fruit made us cognizant of the science of good and evil. This science is very profound. There is good in the evil and there is evil in the good. There is something evil within everything good; there is something good within everything evil. Crime is also hidden within the incense of Prayer; crime is also hidden within the perfume of litany.

There exists much Virtue in the evil ones, likewise there is much evil in the virtuous ones. Whosoever knows the good from the evil and the evil from the good receives the terrible sword of Cosmic Justice...

To see what is meant here, see the following:


Foundations Of Gnostic Teachings: Post 17

Foundations Of Gnostic Teachings: Post 19





As Samael Aun Weor has said many times: To BE is better than to merely exist.


To Be or not to Be.

Originally posted by DerekOneSeven17
Fisrt of all, i never said that the Bible is "holy," scripture for all masons.

What you are implying - that there is a core dogma of a good, loving, all-knowing god - is simply not true. Therefore, a conclusion based off of that is also false.

Im curious as to what "holy" book you believe is the true work of the Grand Architecht, and also, what book you swore your Masonic oath on, if you feel comfortable sharing.

Sure.

I don't believe that there is a holy book that is the work of the Grand Architect... they are the creation of man. I don't believe that the creator speaks to us directly.

I swore my oaths on a Christian bible... not because it had religious meaning to me... but because it had meaning to my brothers.

I am almost completely positive that every major monotheistic religion believes that their god is "good," and "loving."

Every major religion, sure. I would also say that a huge number of Masons I've met are 'free thinkers' on that topic, and don't subscribe to the big player religions. A much larger percentage, at least, than mainstream society.

Supposing that the Grand Architecht is omnipotent and created everything,

I don't believe either of those, but supposing...

a tenet of most major monotheistic religions,

Again, I point out that your beef is with those religions... not with masonry.

the Grand Architecht did create evil beings.

No, he created (or led to the creation of) beings capable of evil, just as they are capable of good. Free will.

Supposing that the Grand Architecht is "all knowing," why would he create beings who, he would know, would later go and soil his creation?

Why do you consider evil to be a soiling of his creation?

I'd say that creating creatures that can think for themselves, and learn, and grow... that is the much greater good.

It doesn't take talent to be a tyrant.

It is obvious to me that the Grand Architecht does not "love," us, considering her created all the rapists, child molesters, etc, supposedly knowing that they would act in this way, before he created them.

Again, you are supposing a lot. What if the creator is not omnicient?

Or even better, an example. Two parents, each with a child. Parent A completely shelters her child, so no harm may come to it. Parent B lets her child make mistakes, so the child learns. You'd tell me that Parent B does not love her child, because she is willing to let a little harm come to it.

Assuming that you believe that the Grand Architecht created the entire universe, a basic doctrine of monotheism,

Actually, that's NOT a basic doctrine of monotheism. The only doctrine of monotheism is that there is one god. That's the definition.

And actually, I don't believe what you assume... but supposing I did...

every pain you endure is, therefor, a result of his creation. I simply pointed out that to make us run a painful gauntlet that he created, just to be worthy enough to live in "heaven," that he also created, is a sick ideology.

It's a clear page out of Buddism. The purpose of life is to smooth out the wrinkles in the soul, so that you can achieve nirvana. It takes trials and tribulations to do so.

Why could we not just live in the "heaven," to begin with?

Maybe it's not within god's power?

I did not make any false or misleading charges, i simply expressed my feelings based on what i do understand.

Uh, point of order... you stated a philosophical hypothesis, based on your own feelings... and off of that, stated that Freemasons worship Satan. Give me a break!

Imagine the Love and progress we could achieve if there was no death, and especially no suffering to hold us back.

What motivation would there be to achieve? One could just sit on one's laurels, forever. There is no need to create, no deadline, no urge to pass on one's creation before venturing beyond.

In the TRUE God's Creation, not this usurped hellish universe of the Grand Architecht, this is a reality.

Now you're advocating your own religious beliefs. I declare shenaniga

I feel this is especially relevant to "Secret Societies," specifically Freemasonry, considering the Masonic tenets that "Monotheism is the sole dogma of Freemasonry," "God's existence is revealed to man through faith and the Book of Holy Scriptures," and "The Book of Holy Scriptures is the Ultimate Authority or Great Light of Freemasonry."

Monotheism does not imply many of the key assumptions you are going for. You're trying to draw a conclusion about the fraternity that is thin and - frankly - ludicrous.

To Masonic Light :

How else could it be [without death, suffering, decay, murderous food chain, rampant exploitation, injustice, and etc]?

Otherwise, there would be no opportunity for growth, no knowledge. If there were no "evil" there would be no opportunity to do good. If there were no injustice, then justice would have no meaning. There would be no heroes, no courage...all the best traits in humanity would be unmanifest.

It would be a truly enjoyable, loving, and blissful existence. Evil is not neccesary for the existence of Good. Good can, and does exist without ANY evil in the True God's creation, NOT this abomination created by the evil Grand Architecht.

There would be constant growth without any evil mechanisms such as death stopping us from growing, and forcing us to suffer, another mechanism to inhibit growth, all over again through reincarnation.

Ask yourself, why would a loving god want you to suffer?All i feel that suffering teaches is, basically, how to avoid suffering, or how to inflict it upon others.




To Tamahu :

I think what DerekOneSeven is getting at, is that the manifest human experience isn't worth all the pain.

In other words: He seems to be implying that it would be better if the Ain Soph Atoms would not have descended from the bosom of AIN, the Unmanifest Absolute... [etc]

In response to your first statement, that is not really what i had meant to convey. Though i am not familiar with your kabbalistic (i assume) references, i am going to presume that that is not what i had meant.

What i had meant to convey was that suffering, decay, death, and all forms of evil are unjust and sadistic mechanism forced upon us by the Grand Architecht. I had tried to explain how this "Grand Architecht," who is worshipped as the epitome of Goodness and Love, is actually the epitome of deceit and evil and is the cause of extreme unneccesary suffering.

Pain is the result of excessive desire...

Pain is the result of the sick "mind" and creation of the evil "Grand Architecht." If he hadn't created pain, there would be no pain.




To Hobbes :

What you are implying - that there is a core dogma of a good, loving, all-knowing god - is simply not true. Therefore, a conclusion based off of that is also false.

What i had attempted to explain was that the major tenets of Freemasonry, "Monotheism is the sole dogma of Freemasonry," "God's existence is revealed to man through faith and the Book of Holy Scriptures," and "The Book of Holy Scriptures is the Ultimate Authority or Great Light of Freemasonry," are inter-related to to the belief of monotheism, specificailly, the belief that God is good and loving, conveyed by, i believe, every major religion with a "holy" book.

the Grand Architecht did create evil beings. ---DerekOneSeven

No, he created (or led to the creation of) beings capable of evil ---Hobbes

You just proved my point, if he created beings capable of serving evil, he created evil beings.

Why do you consider evil to be a soiling of his creation?

Because, if he truly loved his creation, he would not want them to endure extreme and purposeless suffering.

The purpose of life is to smooth out the wrinkles in the soul, so that you can achieve nirvana. It takes trials and tribulations to do so.

As i said, i feel it is sick and evil to force beings to "run a gauntlet," in order to acheieve "heaven." Why would a loving god create evil to cause the soul "wrinkles," in the first place?

Continued, To Hobbed :

What motivation would there be to achieve [if there was no suffering, death, evil, etc]? One could just sit on one's laurels, forever. There is no need to create, no deadline, no urge to pass on one's creation before venturing beyond.

The motivation would be unconditional love. Every being would be simoultaneously helping eachother grow, evolve, experiment, and love, without any pain, worries, sorrow, decay, death or any evil whatsoever.

That wouldn't be a motivation at all I'm afraid, dude. We would have no experience of those undesirables which we would be free of, and therefore no motivation to avoid them. We would, equally, have no knowledge of the value of unconditional love and a painless existence, because we would be ignorant of adverse conditions.

If we were all created without the capacity for evil, for free will and choice, we would be no more than robots acting within moral parameters and ignorant of anything outside of our one-dimensional experience of life.

Sorry, but your theory doesn't hold water.

That wouldn't be a motivation at all I'm afraid, dude. We would have no experience of those undesirables which we would be free of, and therefore no motivation to avoid them. We would, equally, have no knowledge of the value of unconditional love and a painless existence, because we would be ignorant of adverse conditions.

If we were all created without the capacity for evil, for free will and choice, we would be no more than robots acting within moral parameters and ignorant of anything outside of our one-dimensional experience of life.

Sorry, but your theory doesn't hold water.

-roark

Perhaps for you it is not a motivation, to love others unconditionally, but for myself, and those who embrace the Light, it is simply "natural." There would be no need to avoid evil, because no evil would exist, in the True God's creation. The exhibition or existence of unconditional love is not reliant on the existence of evil. Goodness is self-sufficient. Those who exist in the True God's creation would fully understand the worth, the importance, and the bliss of unconditional love because it is the primary function, sustaining force, and enjoyment of their existence. It is the energy in which all beings would use to grow, experiment, and share in true bliss that exists with no pain or evil.

All beings would still retain freewill. Evil is not neccesary for the exhibition of freewill.

What i write is not a theory, it is Truth.


As Awgawk has aptly said, "I say to you as I say to all who will receive my words; these words are my truth, I give them to you. If they are meant for you, then keep them, if not, then throw them away, they were meant for someone else, they are not for you."

You kinda missed my point, but anyway...

Originally posted by DerekOneSeven17
What i write is not a theory, it is Truth.

...there's the rub, dude.

We can't really engage you properly in discussion if you're claiming Divine Truth, because you are effectively saying that you speak for the Almighty.

Us mere mortals can't compete with our humble tools of ration, logic, and personal experience.

Originally posted by DerekOneSeven17
What i write is not a theory, it is Truth.

It's not truth, it's your opinion. And based off of that opinion, you are condemning pretty much everyone else.

Originally posted by Roark
Us mere mortals can't compete with our humble tools of ration, logic, and personal experience.

Ain't that the truth!

Originally posted by DerekOneSeven17


Ask yourself, why would a loving god want you to suffer?All i feel that suffering teaches is, basically, how to avoid suffering, or how to inflict it upon others.

Have you studied Buddhism, or it's antidote, Taoism?

Remember, suffering itself is a form of purification. Not in the sense that flagellants take it, lol...but just in a natural sense. It's simply part of life. We don't need to invent all these good vs. evil god scenarios in order to understand it.

On Suffering(with the Four Seals of Buddhism in mind):

The Four Seals

The four main principles of Buddhism:

all compounded phenomena are impermanent,

everything defiled (with ego-clinging) is suffering,

all phenomena are empty and devoid of a self-entity,

and nirvana is perfect peace.

The Four Noble Truths

The Buddha’s first teachings.

1) All conditioned life is suffering.

2) All suffering is caused by ignorance.

3) Suffering can cease.

4) The eight-fold path leads to the end of suffering: right understanding, thought, speech, action, livelihood, effort, mindfulness and meditation.

This of course agrees with the teachings of Gnosis:

FIRST:

"We annihilate the "I" based on alchemical operations only." - Endocrinology & Criminology"

SECOND:

The ego that we have within is Satan.

"Many masochistic students of Occultism, Theosophy, etc., etc., consider misery, pain and even sickness as an inexhaustible fountain of light and wisdom. Those wretched people adore the "I." Those people are Satanic.

God or that which is God, the Divinity, is happiness, peace, and abundance.

Misery and pain belong to Satan.

Other people await believing that through evolution and time they will one day attain perfection. Those people are even worse, because they want to perpetuate Satan throughout the centuries. They are worse, because they want to perfect Satan (Satan is the "I").

Satan enjoys when he reincarnates in order to satisfy his desires.

Satan enjoys when he gets more experience. The experiences of life complicate and strengthen the "I."

While his adolescence, youth, and maturity pass away, the innocent and beautiful child gains experiences that complicate him and finally transform him into a sly, malicious, distrustful, etc. old man.

The innocent human being of eighteen millions of years ago is now the human being of cabarets and of the atomic bomb, the human being of peculation and crime.

This is what the evolution of the "I" is. It is a complication and a fortification of the myself. It is the projection of error throughout the centuries.

Therefore, the evolution ends when the "I" is dissolved. This is what total revolution is...

Satan suffers the consequences of his own errors through reincarnation (Karma).

Satan is born in time and dies in time. Satan is time.

To want to perfect Satan is an absurdity.

To want to become liberated with time is the same as to adore Satan.

That which is God, the Divine, the Truth, is non-temporal.

The human being organizes mystical schools with the great pain of Satan.

The human being converts the pain into a mysticism. This is masochism.

We created the complicated theory of evolution based on a mistake.

The human being committed a mistake when he ate the forbidden fruit. This is how the "I" was born.

The forbidden fruit that Adam ate was sex.

Since then, the error continues reincarnating.

This is how pain continues.

We dissolve the "I" only through incessant transmutations. This is how evolution ends." - Endocrinology & Criminology

This certainly does not mean that we should avoid pain by running from it.



“Happiness is not achieved by running away from the Me, Myself, the Ego. Instead it would be interesting to grab the bull by the horns, to observe the “I”, to study the “I” in order to discover the causes of Suffering.” - Samael Aun Weor






The Four Noble Truths from a Tantric point of view:

The Four Noble Truths

Legend has it that the first teaching of the Buddha Shakyamuni revealed Four Truths to humanity.

He said, "It is through not understanding, not realizing four things, that I, Disciples, as well as you, had to wander so long through this round of rebirths. And what are these four things? They are the Noble Truth of Suffering, the Noble Truth of the Origin of Suffering, the Noble Truth of the Extinction of Suffering, the Noble Truth of the Path that leads to the Extinction of Suffering."

Vast teachings have been given expressing the nature of these Four Noble Truths; but perhaps none have been as direct as this short expression from The Aquarian Message by Samael Aun Weor:


First Truth: To have absolute consciousness of pain and bitterness.

Second Truth: Pain is the child of fornication, and whosoever spills the semen (reaches the orgasm) is a fornicator. This is a tremendous Truth!

Third Truth: We have an "I" that must be decapitated and dissolved in order to incarnate the Verb, the Christ.

Fourth Truth: We can only decapitate and dissolve the prince of this world, the "I," with the Arcanum A.Z.F.(White Tantrism).

Of course we could keep blaming it all on some external agent.....




[edit on 26-2-2007 by Tamahu]

Who cares, I say we make our own secret society based off of the Stonecutters!

Who controls the British Crown?
We do!

You can mock, manipulate, and lie all you want, it will never change the Truth.

As Awgawk has aptly said, "I say to you as I say to all who will receive my words; these words are my truth, I give them to you. If they are meant for you, then keep them, if not, then throw them away, they were meant for someone else, they are not for you."



To Tamahu and ML :


ML, i am glad to hear that you are not a flagellant . As i have said, i feel the imposition of suffering on this creation by the "Grand Architecht," is a sick and evil action, whether it "purifies," us of past transgressions (which if it did, in fact, "purify," us, it would only be "purifying," us of many transgressions which we were forced to commit due to the "Grand Architecht's" forced system of karma and reincarnation, as well as other imposed systems) or not.

Tamahu, All suffering, clearly, is not the result of ignorance. Take for example, a new born infant aquiring AIDS from their mother, or being thrown in a dumpster. Was the baby's ignorance the reason for it's suffering? Clearly not, therefor, All suffering is NOT the result of ignorance.

I fully agree that the ego is an evil mechanism of enslavement.

I strongly disagree that through "white tantrism," or "masturbating, but not coming to a climax," you will somehow alleviate your suffering, or be liberated from this hellish plane. It is NOT neccesary to do that to overcome sexual desire, and i, frankly, find it disgusting.

You seem to percieve my acknowledgement that a great deal of suffering is caused by the "Grand Architecht," as unjustly blaming it on an "external agent." I am simply acknowledging the truth that many sufferings, which all beings endure, are forced upon them, as are the mechanisms in which they are forced to operate by, of which the sufferer has no control over.




[edit on 26-2-2007 by DerekOneSeven17]

Originally posted by DerekOneSeven17
You can mock, manipulate, and lie all you want, it will never change the Truth.

DerekOneSeven


We've already gone over most of this.

So I'll not repeat what has already been posted.



To clarify one thing however:

Originally posted by DerekOneSeven17
I strongly disagree that through "white tantrism," or "masturbating, but not coming to a climax," you will somehow alleviate your suffering, or be liberated from this hellish plane. It is NOT neccesary to do that to overcome sexual desire, and i, frankly, find it disgusting.

You find Chaste Sex between Woman and Man disgusting?


And who said anything about masturbation?

Orgasm or not, masturbation only leads to suffering.

The only Gnostic practice that would resemble "masturbation" to the non-Initiate would be the Vajroli Mudra, the Vajroli Mudra actually being the anti-thesis of masturbation.


And how is it that that which brought is into this world, could not also Liberate us from it?



Again, H.H. the Dalai Lama teaches us how Sex brings Tawhid(Union of opposites, At-One-Ment, the Union of Bliss and Emptiness) or Liberation:

A Survey of the Paths of Tibetan Buddhism - His Holiness the Dalai Lama

...The point is that due to the force of desire, you are able to melt the elements within your body. Consequently, when you experience the nonconceptual state, you should be able to direct your attention to meditation on emptiness. So, when you experience a nonconceptual state as a result of the elements melting within your body, if you are able to generate that understanding into a realization of emptiness, you will have achieved the feat of transforming a disturbing emotion, desire, into the wisdom realizing emptiness.

When you are able to employ this nonconceptual blissful mind in realizing emptiness, the result is a powerful wisdom that serves as an antidote to counteract and eliminate diusturbing emotions.


Therefore, it is a case of wisdom derived from disturbing emotions counteracting and eliminating them, just as insects born from wood consume it...

Desire(untransmuted sexual energy), ignorance(ignorance of the Nature of cause-and-effect(Karma), ignorance of the Nature of Space, and ignorance of the Nature of Nirvana), and hatred(frustrated desire) are the Three Poisons or main causes of pain and suffering.





On the Mastery of Sexuality, and also on the Pharisees of Sexuality:

Types of Sexuality

There are three fundamental classes of sexuality:

1. Suprasexuality: Characterized by the transmutation of sexual energy, the pinnacle of which is the type of functioning that prophets such as Buddha, Jesus, Krishna, Mohammad, etc. possess. Their bodies, minds, and spirits are the outcome of incessant and innumerable sexual transmutations. They perfectly transform each moment of existence, thus they perfectly perceive the true nature of all cosmic phenomena.

2. Normal sexuality: The functioning related with the procreation of the species where no psycho-sexual conflict exists.

3. Infrasexuality: The functioning of any and all forms of fornication or sexual misconduct. Including: masturbation, adultery, and homosexuality. This area is again divided by the Kabbalah into the spheres of Lilith and Nehamah.

"People are filled with horror when they hear about sexual Magic; however, they are not filled with horror when they give themselves to all kinds of sexual perversion and to all kinds of carnal passion." - The Perfect Matrimony

Kabbalah: Ain Soph

...But, if we do not build the Chariot, the Mercabah, the Ain Soph remains without Intimate Self-realization.

Those who have not eliminated the Abhayan Samskara, the innate fear, will flee from the Ninth Sphere by telling unto others that the work in the Forge of the Cyclops (sex) is worthless.


These are hypocritical Pharisees who drain the mosquito and swallow up the camel. These are the failed ones who do not enter in to the Kingdom, thereby not allowing others to enter. Truly, sex is a stumbling rock and a rock of offense.

This is the "painful reality" of it all.


But, as Buddha and Christ teach, it actually ceases to be painful when we apply Bodhicitta or Christ-centrism.




[edit on 26-2-2007 by Tamahu]

Originally posted by DerekOneSeven17


ML, i am glad to hear that you are not a flagellant

. As i have said, i feel the imposition of suffering on this creation by the "Grand Architecht," is a sick and evil action, whether it "purifies," us of past transgressions (which if it did, in fact, "purify," us, it would only be "purifying," us of many transgressions which we were forced to commit due to the "Grand Architecht's" forced system of karma and reincarnation, as well as other imposed systems) or not.

Yet I'm not quite sure that God created suffering or karma or reincarnation. I'm sort of pantheistic in my views: I do not really view God as a separate "being" outside of Nature, but rather as the primary life force and principle of love that manifests through us. In other words, I see God's consciousness as being self-realized through us. Instead of being "created" by an outside force, I believe we are manifestations of the only force that really exists.

Wait... so then if God is inherently evil, and we are manifestations of him... then we, as well, are inherently evil.

Not only that, but as just a minor part of a whole, we couldn't affect change... a plate in the dining car can't steer the train.

So, basically, we are doomed.

I have said all i needed to say to you Tamahu. Finally, i will say that stimulating yourself sexually and not coming to a climax is not neccesary to overcome sexual desire, nor will it "liberate" you from material enslavement, and i, frankly, find it disgusting. Pain exists because of the evil "grand architecht." Whether you choose to acknowledge it, ignore it, embrace it, or whatever, pain still exists in this world, and it still deserves complete destruction along with all evil. That is the just solution to the wicked problem.

Wait... so then if God is inherently evil, and we are manifestations of him... then we, as well, are inherently evil.

-Hobbes

I had never said, or meant to imply this. You can read in my post that i had differentiated between the True God (who did not create evil) of uncondtional Love, Truth, Beauty, Purity, and Goodness and the evil "Grand Architecht." I myself know that i am a creation of the True God as opposed to the evil usurping "Grand Architecht."

Originally posted by DerekOneSeven17
I have said all i needed to say to you Tamahu. Finally, i will say that stimulating yourself sexually and not coming to a climax is not neccesary to overcome sexual desire, nor will it "liberate" you from material enslavement, and i, frankly, find it disgusting.

And I'll repeat: I've never stated such an erroneous thing.

Where are you getting that?

Did you even read any of my posts?

Originally posted by DerekOneSeven17
Pain exists because of the evil "grand architecht." Whether you choose to acknowledge it, ignore it, embrace it, or whatever, pain still exists in this world, and it still deserves complete destruction along with all evil. That is the just solution to the wicked problem.

And this "All Loving True God" that exists in your mind(as opposed to the actual All Loving True God) allowed this "rebellion" or "evil Architect" to happen in the first place?


Really, the Demiurge Great Architect is beyond good and evil.

Or we could say IS the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil...


Good and evil are, in the end, only the result of conditioned mind:



See link on Highest Yoga-Tantra:

Keith Dowman/Sky Dancer




...About mind: identify the conditioned mind with seed-essence itself.

If seed-essence is lost in actuality the karma of slaying a Buddha is incurred.

At all costs gain self-control...

Destruction of pain(ego) is going to occur one way or another.

And the ego, pain, is the result of excessive desire, or losing control of seed-essence(the fall of Adam and Eve).

The question is: Are we willing to destroy evil within ourselves Consciously?

Or are we going to sit around and wait until it has to happen mechanically, in the Second Death, in the Hell Realms?

To do it Consciously is much less painful.

Either way, the ego will be destroyed.




[edit on 2-3-2007 by Tamahu]

Originally posted by Tamahu

Good and evil are, in the end, only the result of conditioned mind:

Destruction of pain(ego) is going to occur one way or another.

The question is: Are we willing to destroy evil within ourselves Consciously?


[edit on 2-3-2007 by Tamahu]

Apart from cultural and regional morals, which are not necessarily good or evil, I feel there are some instances of absolute ethics, such as the anonymous aid of a stranger, being good, and the selfish harming of innocents, being evil. In any time and place those are true, as far as I know. Is sexual pleasure evil because semen is lost? I'm not convinced that sex for pleasure is not good. Pleasure is a positive quality in this material life, so what is the point of avoiding it? I can see the danger of obsessing on it, but it may be possible to enjoy plentiful pleasure without being addicted to it. If you can say you would be okay with nothing, and contentment is not attached to anything external, and also take the opportunity to experience pleasure when it arises, what is the harm? If no-one is hurt, except the sperm cells, what is the difference between that and a woman losing an egg every month during her period?