One Third Of The Holocaust:More Compelling Evidence It Never Happened

I'm sorry I don't understand a shred of your conspiracy theory above. Bush funded Hitler ... Hitler who was born in the late 1800's and came to power in the 1920's and died in 1945 ... this man was funded by Bush who was born in 1946??? Even Bush senior, who was born in 1924 would've been a toddle or child during Hitler's reign. But somehow they conspired to make the war??

Some of the previous Bush's were involved with the Nazis.



Nygdan, thanks for answer those questions.

I don't beleive for a split second that you 'hope' 6 million jews didn't die.

What you trying to say?

So you are saying that the Jews caused World War II eh.

I think he should have renamed that as Zionists.

Originally posted by northwolf
Yes - Holocaust did happen, proof is there.

No - I do not believe that 6 million Jews were killed, 6 million people were killed in the Germany and german controlled areas between 1935 and 1945, but this includes everyone who died in the regular and military prison systems and those executed for crimes too. You do know that for example looting was punishable by death. So to sum it up, numbers are way off to gather sympathy for jews.



OT
Pavil: of only Italy, Japan and Germany had imperialistic agendas, how about Russian ILLEGAL occupation of baltic countries and the UNPROVOKED attack to Finland at 1939?

What do you mean, the numbers are way off? Please give me your estimates of Jews and non Jews killed by the Nazi's in camps and ghettos and outright executions. While the final number will never be know there is no doubt that the Nazi's engaged in a systematic roundup of Jews and other "undesirables" and then proceeded to work them to the point of death and also just outright exterminate those groups. Does it make it less of a crime that the Nazi's did this to only 1M rather than 1.75M Gypsies for example? I just don't get the rationale that "Hey, because only 4 Million Jews died at the hands of the Nazi's " that it is somehow more acceptable or understandable.

As to the latter comment, Germany, and Japan without a doubt triggered WWII. Without the events leading up to Russia's invasions, who knows what would have hapened? Most probably Stalin would have exanded his borders. They are still deplorable, thanks for the correction.

Pavil
Numbers i've been told by some historians are 1,5M others and around 4M in the camps. This by no means makes it all allright, holocaust happened and it was the second biggest astrosity in modern history. I just pointed out that are variety of ways to calculate the numbers during the ww2. For example would you count those that died in 999 battalions as KIAs or murdered?

Ps. I still think that Stalins random and irrational purges were even worse with close tp 10 million murdered.

PPS. Swedish Royalty and Elite made deals with the Nazis too, it's not a Bush priviledge to make dirtt business deals

[edit on 19-2-2007 by northwolf]

Originally posted by SmallMindsBigIdeas

Originally posted by rrahim1
If you think about it. Hitler was installed by the Illuminati. Bush was funding Hitler to carry out his war through the IBM company. It was probably planned in order to send America to war which benefits Bush Senior and it allowed Germany to be taken over and then controlled by the Illuminati. They even claimed Israel now that they had control of American forces as well as European. So now they are furthering the plan that they started when they created the piece of Israel. The greater Israel will come to be. The concentration camp's were a foreshadow of what would happen to humanity when the Illuminati take control because no one would think it could happen again. Thats why they emphasize it because it was in the past, but it could be in the very near future.

I'm sorry I don't understand a shred of your conspiracy theory above. Bush funded Hitler ... Hitler who was born in the late 1800's and came to power in the 1920's and died in 1945 ... this man was funded by Bush who was born in 1946??? Even Bush senior, who was born in 1924 would've been a toddle or child during Hitler's reign. But somehow they conspired to make the war??

Prescott bush, president grandfather, slick rick...mr. burns

en.wikipedia.org...

en.wikipedia.org...

this subject does not get touched enought, but ill bet my left testy that jewish and american were complicate in making the holocaust what it is today.

Originally posted by northwolf
So to sum it up, numbers are way off to gather sympathy for jews.

The problem is that the numbers are made from nazi records that show X number of jews in, and very little more than X number of jews out. They also did demographic studies and find a jewish depopulation of around that number too.

You're going to need to do more than merely suggest that the 6 million number is a fabrication, you'll have to refute the research thats been done.

I still think that Stalins random and irrational purges were even worse with close tp 10 million murdered.

Its debatable. Stalin killed more, however the nazis were attempting to exterminate a nation of people. I don't think it'd make sense to 'rank' serious crimes aganist humanity, but the idea of trying to wipe out an entire people seems especially horrific.

tom goose
, but ill bet my left testy that jewish and american were complicate in making the holocaust what it is today.

So you are basically saying that you have no evidence, and no reason, but you just feel that the jews are liars.

[edit on 20-2-2007 by Nygdan]

I can't believe people are trying to downplay the suffering Jews went through under Hitler... trying to say JEWS THEMSELVES wanted so many of their own people tortured and murdered for land.

You've done quite a lovely job stifling your Anti-Semitism; stating that you only want to "question history" but it's quite obvious that you, yourself, have an agenda.

Originally posted by Nygdan

So you are basically saying that you have no evidence, and no reason, but you just feel that the jews are liars.

[edit on 20-2-2007 by Nygdan]

yes, if you want to make idiot statements, i will go along. the jews,as well as american involved in covering up the truth, and pushing an exagerated story, are LIARS.

you wanna make a biggot out of me buddy? do it to my face, don't be such a coward and leave loose statements that mean nothing as your final word.

If i wanted to take over the world, i would have pulled the same moves, why dont you think like the vilan, and stop acting like you are.

Originally posted by tom goose
you wanna make a biggot out of me buddy? do it to my face, don't be such a coward and leave loose statements that mean nothing as your final word.

Just calling it like I see it. You had no evidence, no rational, just the 'feeling' that evil jews were making hte holocaust up. I didn't out and out say 'you're a bigoted anti-semite' because I surely don't know if you are, maybe I was just misunderstanding your statements or reasons, my statement was a question which you were free to clarify/answer.

It's just starting to dawn on me the problem here.

It's not stupidity, it's not bigotry - it is plain ignorance, with a liberal dash of gullibility.

Now I won't address all those who have contributed to this thread individually, but those of you who vehemently deny the holocaust ever occured, do not on the whole strike me as being unintelligent. However, intelligence has little to do with knowledge and you so obviously have a limited knowledge.

You are the problem on so many levels, you are the ones that the media targets because you will believe every half truth that is offered to you. I pity you and I deplore you. You need to wake up and use your brain otherwise you might as well be chip controlled drone.

Sure there is a wealth of information on the internet but I find it damn hard to sift throught the BS to get to the facts. I use the internet to support my studies not as the guiding light. I read books, I have read thousands of them in the course of my life and I intend to contuinue doing so for as long as I am able. I recommend some of you do the same, instead of parading your ignorance for the real truth seekers to despair over.

If you want to question something, make a start with your own existence.

Originally posted by Nygdan

Originally posted by tom goose
you wanna make a biggot out of me buddy? do it to my face, don't be such a coward and leave loose statements that mean nothing as your final word.

Just calling it like I see it. You had no evidence, no rational, just the 'feeling' that evil jews were making hte holocaust up. I didn't out and out say 'you're a bigoted anti-semite' because I surely don't know if you are, maybe I was just misunderstanding your statements or reasons, my statement was a question which you were free to clarify/answer.

Sorry, it was first thing in the morning, and I couldn't think of any better way of defending myself, or my position which was vague, but come on, what is the first rule investigators fallow when searching for clues? Who benefited from this crime?

Well who benefited from the holocaust? Did the Germans benefit from spending valuable time and resources on a needless operation while in the middle of a multiple front war? Did they get any major Jews, like bankers or business class? How about more than one Rothschild? (One female that was married into the family)

Nazi’s were supposed to be ridding the world of the "Jew menace" not killing ethnic Jewish families. Did any of the people that were holding the prominent positions that were pissing Hitler off till the mid-30's end up in the camps? Probably a few, but realistically how many would have stuck around after '33 I think it was, when high paying positions of power were being stripped from them?

OP's video might be hard to watch, but it is far more of an attempt at an investigation into this that I’ve seen. David Cole did a good job I thought, but it doesn't hold up now seeing as how he has denounced everything he has said publicly.

Testimony is the only evidence the official holocaust THEORY has, and if that is all it takes then I should watch out for big groups of friends that could convict of a crime for fun. And yes I’ve heard "the Germans kept good records, everyone knows how good Germans are at keeping records." well... I have also heard that IBM (allied) supplied them with the technology to identify Jews and their assets, so isn't that a conflict of interest?

www.ibmandtheholocaust.com...

Nagden, you argued that Britain promised Israel to the Jews long before the holocaust, I’ve never read that before and I'm curious where you did, could you post a link? Obviously if the crime worked out the way I believe it did, there would have been a deal before WW2 for Israel, and you claim to know who made this deal. I would really like some names. I’m not challenging you, but it is not exactly common knowledge and I would appreciate it if you shared it with me and others that don’t know.

Just thought of this while trying to search for numbers of families reunited, how come only recently are they coming out with data-bases to help survivors locate their families? If Germans kept such good records, and we know roughly how many are killed, then were we not able to relieve these families earlier. Most stopped looking by the mid 50's because there was no tangible resource for that info. But wouldn't the courts have needed that info in order to come up with the estimated numbers?

This is all too fishy for me to fallow. I was taught at a young impressionable age what happened in those camps, and it struck fear into me, but now when I see someone actually study it in a way that was never represented to me, it makes me want to throw up for what kind of society we might have already become. we can turn are backs and believe in the history books while we sail away into freedom and democracy, but we will always have this demon in our closet, amongst many others.

Tom Goose

I have just read your post and I cannot help but respond. I've been following this thread and another that was recently started.

In reference to the 'jewish homeland' in Israel. It was formally documented in the Balfour Declaration in 1917 and the following is a quote from the letter/declaration to Lord (Walter) Rothschild from Arthur Balfour.

"His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country".

I think this quote raises a number of issues but they're not really in line with the current topic.

To go back to the matter in question. I am assuming you are in North America, correct me if I'm wrong.

In the 80s and 90s we experienced similar efforts to 'revise' the history of the Holocaust. Eventually, they fell flat on their faces. Why? Because the arguments do not stand up to scrutiny. I suggest you look at the other thread I referred to and in particular the posts by smoking beagle.

www.abovetopsecret.com...'

There is absolutely no substance to the arguments of the revisionists. You should be asking why certain people want you to beleive it never happened?

For a start you need to expand your knowledge on Hitler's rise to power. Hitler was not some independent who rose through the ranks and TA-DA as if by magic he was dictator of Germany. It was a long and arduous transistion and one of the main factors that facilitated his rise was the economic situation post WW1. The people were looking for direction and Hitler and the National Socialists provided that - National Socialism was used as religion. Seriously, watch Triumph of the Will.

Propaganda was integral to the Nazi hold over Germany.

If you were to read Hitler's personal writings, such as Mein Kampf and then to look at how Hitler governed you will come to understand that he didn't at any point ever say 'we need to kill the all the jews'. To begin with Jews were deported, which explains why there weren't many high level Jews killed. They had the money and probably the warning to get the hell out of dodge.

More importantly the way in which Hitler dicated, allowed for a great deal of corruption. Lives were bought. Of the Rothschild's, one, off the top of my head I can't remember his name, was captured by the SS and held under house arrest in the Astor Hotel (another 'good' family who supported Hitler). His freedom was bought for several million by all accounts.

Hitler wanted Racial Purity for Germany, a return to his Teutonic ideal of the Germany, he did not care how this was executed, he left that up to his subordinates. Deportation did not solve the problem quick enough. Following Ghettoization it was fairly simple to not just work them to death but to commence wholesale killing.

This is a difficult transition to comprehend, I understand that. You need the full breadth of knowledge.

The Nazi rule of Germany was not brought about by one man, he had powerful backers. Hitler had a gift of oration and a passion for his cause. This was recognised early on and utilised by those who have no morals when it comes to money.

Many companies built their empires off the back of slave labour in Nazi Germany....BMW, Seimens, Volkswagen, IG Farben (now Bayer), to name but a few. Many people made money from the seizure of Jewish assets - the greatest beneficary being the Swiss bankers. Credit Suisse is owned by the Warburgs who also as I recall, had a stake in Farben.

These people still hold power today. You may well ask how they benefit by 'cleansing' the holocaust and their well documented involvement.

Further to my previous post, I was checking my facts (a little off) regarding the imprisonment of a Rothschild by the Nazis and found the following article. Originally published 22 May 1939 in Times Magazine;

“For more than a year Baron Louis Rothschild, sportsman, patron of art and science and once Austria's greatest banker, has been a prisoner of the dread Nazi Gestapo in two rooms near that of Kurt von Schuschnigg, last Chancellor of Austria, on the top floor of Vienna's Hotel Metropole. Aged by a year's close confinement, the once dapper Baron last week stepped out of a plane in Zurich, Switzerland, a free man again, liberated for an unknown ransom.
Fourth-generation descendant of Mayer Amschel, founder of the Rothschild fortune, Louis was the only one of six children of the Vienna branch of the clan to be an active director of the family business, the Creditanstalt, State bank of the Habsburgs, of which he became president in 1911. The Rothschild bank survived the Austro-Hungarian collapse in 1918, remained Central Europe's biggest financial house. In 1929, with a typical Rothschild gesture, Baron Louis rushed to Vienna from a hunting expedition, took over the insolvent Bodencreditanstalt, great Austrian bank, the failure of which threatened the nation's ruin. Two years later the Creditanstalt, weakened by the merger, itself failed, plunging Europe into financial crisis. Prosecution of Baron Louis was dropped when he "voluntarily" handed over $10,000,000 of his private fortune to the Government and resigned as the bank's president.
Last year, Baron Louis, not so nimble as Brothers Alphonse and Eugene, was caught by the Nazi invasion of Austria. His captors insisted that the Rothschild relatives ransom him by making good more of the bank's losses. Original demand was rumored to be $10,000,000, but Rothschilds are hard bargainers, and the Nazis are lucky if they got half that.”

What I found most interesting was the part that the Rothschild bankers played in the economic collapse of Europe which precipitated the rise of National Socialism, not only in Germany but throughout Europe. In the UK we had Sir Oswald Mosley and his Black Shirts.

It was the economic situation combined with the humiliation of the treaty of Versailles that made the Third Reich possible. The people needed something to believe in, a hero to follow – one people, one Reich, one leader – it worked a dream. Part of the process, at some point was decided, was the use of the Jews as scapegoat for much of the economic problems.

Anti-semitism has been a part of European culture since at least the 12th century. The Jews were persecuted and killed as part of the latinisation of Europe. It should come as no surprise that there was significant collusion between certain members of the nazi party and the Vatican.

The greatest lie to come out of WW2 was that Hitler was to blame for it all and was a madman. He was neither. There were greater motivations at work in the Holocaust and the war as a whole than mere ideology.

I agree we should question everything, but choose your battles carefully. Do not fall into the trap of believing the very people that wish to deceive you.

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
It's not stupidity, it's not bigotry - it is plain ignorance, with a liberal dash of gullibility.

That works perfectly fine for the average consumer of the information, but not the producers of the information. Heck, it'd even work for the producers to have made a mistake in their research. But to continue to 'hype' refuted findings, thats not ignorance, thats propaganda.

Well who benefited from the holocaust?

Clearly not the Jews, who lost 6 million of their own people and were nearly wiped out. The Nazis did the holocaust because they thought that they'd benefit, they'd get ride of the 'under-men', purfiy germany, and go on to the greatest heights.


The British had already promised a jewish homeland for the jews in Israel. WWII merely underscored the need for it. And that need was based upon centuries of pogroms and actions against the jews, clearly the jews didn't carry those out either.

[Did they get any major Jews, like bankers or business class? How about more than one Rothschild?

They had to give up their banks to the nazis and flee the country.

Testimony is the only evidence the official holocaust THEORY has

But thats not true. There is eyewitness testimony, yes, and there is also documentary evidence, and there is forensic evidence. What more is needed in addition to eyewitnesses of particpants (iow, confessions even), documentary evidence, and forensic/scientific evidence?

Nagden, you argued that Britain promised Israel to the Jews long before the holocaust, I’ve never read that before and I'm curious where you did, could you post a link?

Its the Balfour Declaration.
en.wikipedia.org...
This isn't just me claiming this, this is widely accepted history, indeed, many people rather cite the Balfour declaration as evidnece OF a zionist conspiracy.

Obviously if the crime worked out the way I believe it did, there would have been a deal before WW2 for Israel

It doesn't make the least bit of sense to have an agreement from the peopel running palestine to make at least part of it a jewish homeland, and then create 'the holocaust', while wwii is going on nonetheless, under the noses of the nazis, to 'get' israel.

Nygdan - I'm sorry but I didn't explain myself properly. When I was referring to ignorance and gullibility, I meant the revisionist posters on this site - not the revisionist movement as a whole.

Also the Balfour Declaration was not a 'promise' but an agreement in principle. Not quite the same thing.

Some facts...

no original Nazi gas chambers were ever found. The gas chambers shown to tourists at Auschwitz and other camps are reconstructions built after the war by the Russians and Poles. This is not hearsay - it has been admitted in a statement by Francisek Piper, curator of the Auschwitz museum.
No original Nazi documents relating to the construction, use or demolition of the gas chambers were ever found, despite tons of Nazi documents being seized at the end of the war.
No blueprints for the gas chambers were ever found, despite blueprints for all other parts of the camps, including the crematoria being available.
German codes were cracked in 1943 and for the last 2 years of the war all German messages were intercepted, even those coming from Auschwitz. None of these messages mentioned genocide, gassings or any of the rest of it.
Hundreds of autopsies were carried out on bodies found by the Allies at various camps. Not one showed gassing as the cause of death. Typhoid was the most common cause.
There is no hard or physical evidence for the alleged exterminations. For example, we are told that at Auschwitz, when the gassings really got going, the crematories couldn't cope and they burned the bodies in pits, yet no remains have ever been found. It is impossible to burn bones and teeth in this way, so they, at least, should have remained.
Nazi confessions were obtained by torture. The men who obtained Rudolf Hoess, the commandant of Auschwitz confession, admitted in a book called 'Legions of Death', by a British historian (forgotten name of author - look it up if interested) that it took 3 days of torture and death threats made against his children to obtain. This was fairly typical of how the Nuremburg trials were conducted.
There is much, much more that could be said, but I'll be here all day.
Too much of the discussion here is simplistic. The question is not whether the holocaust happened - obviously something happened - the question is what exactly happened. I have been investigating this subject for some time and my view is that the Nazis were anti-semitic and mistreated Jews in various ways, including social exclusion, loss of rights and property and enforced imprisonment and exile. As a result of this mistreatment many thousands of Jews died, although nowhere near 6 million. The deaths were as a result of starvation and typhoid. There is no credible evidence to suggest that there was a deliberate policy of Jewish genocide or that gas chambers existed. These things are wartime propaganda that have been repeated so many times through film, fiction and journalism that people accept them unquestioningly. But just repeating something doesn't make it true.
To get to the truth of anything, you have to critically examine the evidence. that's how history works. The problem is, as soon as you critically examine the Holocaust evidence, people start shouting at you, calling you names and in some nations, prosecuting you. This, in itself, should ring alarm bells. Why all the sensitivity? If its true, it will withstand critical analysis. If I critically examined the Boston Tea Party, or the Battle of Tannenburg, or the Cuban Missile Crisis, would people call me a racist and shout me down, or try to have me arrested?
The holocaust debate should be opened up. The fact that it so protected indicates there is something to hide.
You need to remember that wartime history is famously corrupt. History is written by the victors.

Originally posted by kenochi
Some facts...

www.auschwitz.org.pl... ory_gazowe_ok.html

First off, there are blueprints for the chambers. Second, there is multiple pieces of evidence and eyewitness testimony of the chambers being in existence and used by the Nazis to kill prisoners then cremate their remains. There were even calculations made by the Germans giving their estimates of how many bodies could be burned in a 24 hr period. These figures were exceeded according to eyewitness testimony. There was even an uprising that managed to destroy and damage some of the Chamber/Crematoria complexes by Jewish prisoners that had to man them. The Germans at the very end, destroyed as much as they could to hide the horrible things they did there. To flatly deny the existence of these chambers and crematoriums is to not examine all of the evidence thoroughly.

You and I, I am assuming weren't there at the time. Therefore we have to reconstruct what happened based on as many pieces of information as possible to find out approximately what really did occur. You yourself said that the Nazi's pretty much had it out for the Jews, why do you not think it was not even conceivable that they planned and built the death camps for the specific purpose of exterminating "undesirables"?

Read the motto of this site.

You have found the standard set of blueprints that are commonly presented on various websites. Unfortunately they are of crematoria, not gas chambers. Simply taking a blueprint of a different kind of room and labelling it with the words 'gas chamber' doesn't mean that it was one. The rooms labelled as gas chambers were in fact used as morgues. This has been long accepted by a variety of holocaust historians, (Hilberg, Pressac etc). One of the great conundrums of holocaust history is that no genuine gas chamber blueprints exist. Those who believe in homicidal gassing attempt to explain this away using various arguments, the main one being that the Nazis destroyed all such evidence...
There is not, as you state, a large amount of evidence to support the gas chamber claim. There are many eyewitnesses, documents photos etc of train journeys, of life in the camps, of deportation and exile, in other words of various kinds of mistreatment but only a handful of eyewitness accounts of the gas chambers. Again this dearth of evidence is even admitted by those who support the standard story, like french historian Jacques Baynac who said 'evidence for the existence of gas chambers is at once rare and unreliable'. His position is that "If scholarly history cannot, because of the lack of documentation, establish the reality of a fact, it can, by means of documentation, establish that the unreality of this fact is itself unreal."
What he's basically saying is that history must try to prove that it is impossible that they did not exist because it cannot prove that they did.
My position is simpler - if you can't you prove that they existed, then they didn't. Something as big as 6 million Jews and 5 million non-jews being gassed should not need circuitous arguments to prove its truth. It should be self evident. It isn't.
To be honest the only people who discuss the gas chamber story with certainty and absolutism are those ignorant of the facts, as even the historians who support the story don't do that.

I don't think anyone is saying all the people killed were murdered in gas chambers, obviously there were multiple ways to die in the death camps.

Just to clarify, is it your contention that there were never any gas chambers present in concentration camps that were connected to crematoriiums? Also are you stating that the SS guards at the camps did not try to destroy evidence of mass killings at the camps? If the Soviets or Americans were coming to the camps , why would you pay specail attention to make sure your destroyed specific buildings before they took over the camps?

[qoute]posted by KilgoreTroutThe greatest lie to come out of WW2 was that Hitler was to blame for it all and was a madman. He was neither. There were greater motivations at work in the Holocaust and the war as a whole than mere ideology. [quote/]

thank you, this is what i think needs to be focused on, but i guess not in this thread. i cant argue numbers, no one can, but what about its true purpose, was it really because Hitler was a madman? or was he fooled by others, and if so what were the others intentions, and who are they? the holocaust did happen, but like 9-11, was it an inside job?

Reading this entire thread has left me with a very bad taste in my mouth. You are arguing about how many millions make somehting bad in terms of innocent death. The dimmest of the dim know that the holocaust happened, christ what would happen if people started turning round and saying 9/11 - only 3000 died, thats not too bad... it would cause outrage.

Not every fact about the holocaust is true, big chuffing deal! Not every fact stated about 9/11, WWI, WWII, Vietnam etc etc etc is true - they still happened and represent without argument or discussion some of the most disturbing and horrific achievements of man kind.

You meet some people on these forums who are just made wrong.