One Third Of The Holocaust:More Compelling Evidence It Never Happened

Similarly, Belsen, Dachau, Ravensbruck, Schandelah, Natzweiler, Neuengamme, Schandelah, Mauthausen – to name the few I can remember off the top of my head, were not directly involved in the genocide of the Jews and have other stories to tell.

Source please.

This is an intensely complicated period of history of which the genocide of the Jews is a small part. I therefore find it amazing that while people fervently criticise the accounts of Jews they say nothing to explain the other 5 to 6 million who died in and around these camps. Perhaps you can explain to me why it is the “Jewish Question” that so troubles you and not the “Slavic Question” for example?

Because of the founding of the state of Israël, which had nothing to do with death of other ethnic groups. Because of the massive aid and reparations paid to Israël and continues to this day. And all the effects thereof.

Diesel engines were not used in the “gassings” as far as I have read – I have looked but I can find no reference.

Again, this shows you did not read the transcript I gave you. In Treblinka supposidly a Diesel engine of an old Soviet tank was used. (Kurt Gerstein, Yankel Wiernik)

I have only found that at various stages either bottled carbon monoxide was used and old motorbike engines as a delivery method. While Porsche, Bosch and Krupp were developing engines (in conjunction with General Motors) for use with diesel this was mainly for armament production,

Sources??

the killing squads and camps I would doubt had access to these engines. Most of the engines that they used would have been requisitioned from civilians and captured armed forces. If you can clarify the primary source it would be most helpful.

Sources stating Diesel engines were used mentioned previously. You see, here is were we differ "I doubt had access to". It can easily be shown what was available and what not from camp inventory records and Allied reports wouldn´t you agree?

These techniques were developed in the T4 Euthanasia programmes and used in this capacity for over six years before being applied to the camps.

Really? Your source to the latter finding please.

Again, in terms of deaths from Typhus, compared to by ‘gassings’ I can only suggest that you read some more up to date books on the topic.

What in the following is in any way unclear? "No physical evidence (corpses) ever found to be killed by Zyklon-B or Carbon Monoxide gas". If you have a suggestion on a book which states otherwise please state.

There is no secret here, many died of Typhus related infections, water based infections and starvation. There is a large body of work that covers these issues all of it within the public domain.

Exactly, so why do the exterminationalists keep trying to prove their point with pictures and footage of those Typhus victims? Answer: Keep the myth alive. Keep Israël safe.

Perhaps you should consider the photographs of the plump and healthy guards beside the emaciated and sick inmates. Who ate all the pies or in this case the Red Cross parcels?

You are making assumptions. Please link those pictures.

If and when you can present an argument of your own, instead of reproducing that of others we can discuss the matter in detail and reach some conclusions.

I fail to see how anyone can make an argument without quoting reliable sources. You keep labelling quoting reliable sources as "reproducing that of others". This is the same as attacking hearsay eye-witness testimony.

You need however to get over your obsession with the Jews or you will never understand what occurred in the East, as I have said (repeatedly) this is only one part of the story.

Substitute "the Jews" with "Israël". Simon Wiesenthal: "because there were no extermination camps on German soil". (letter to the editor from Simon Wiesenthal to "Books and Bookmen," April 1975, Vol. 20, No. 7, p. 5.) Good enough? I put to you that what happened in the German and later Allied controlled areas to the East of Germany is in fact crucial for the sustenance of the mass-extermination myth.

Finally, no one received 6 million times 5,000 marks.

You´re right. Israël received "only" 120 billion marks and counting paid by Germany. The rest comes from aid by other countries. Read testimony by Mark Weber in the same transcript. (keywords 23-5767, 5768)

Look at the budget for "Fiscal Year 1997 - U.S. Aid to Israel" as reported in The Washington Report on Middle East Affairs, March 1997, p 39:

Economic Aid

Economic support funds
$1.2 billion

Bank charges incurred by US governments for lump sum withdrawal at beginning of fiscal year (not deducted from
aid)
$60 million

Interest earned by Israel in 1997 on ESF aid money reinvested in U.S. Treasury Notes
$90 million

Soviet Refugee Resettlement Program
$80 million

U.S.-Israel Science and Technology Cooperation (funded by the U.S. Department of Commerce)
$2.5 million

Economic Aid Subtotal
$1.4325 billion

Military Aid

Foreign Military Sales Grant (from foreign aid budget)
$1.8 billion

Additional military aid from Pentagon Budget

Arrow Missile
$200 million

Anti-Terrorist Assistance
$50 million

Nautilus Laser System
$50 million

50 AGM-142 HAVE NAP Missiles
$39 million

Pioneer Unmanned Aerial Vehicle
$30 million

Boost-Phase-Intercept Program
$24.3 million

Military Aid Subtotal
$2.2433 billion

Loan Guarantees
U.S.-Backed Loans for Israel to resettle Soviet Jews
$2 billion

Total of Grants and Loan Guarantees: 5.6758 billion

Who is aiding and supporting the Palistinians for being killed, expatriated and oppressed?
No Holocaust, No reparations, No Israël. It is easy to see the President of Iran wanting to investigate the Holocaust.

Israel received it’s share of the reparations agreement based up on those that they absorbed post-war based on the estimate that 6 billion marks worth of property was expropriated from the Jews.

Yes, this is Wikipedia material.

Continued next post.

Other countries who accepted Jewish refugees also received a portion. You really should research these details for yourself instead of accepting verbatim the work of pseudo-academics.

Statistics do not lie, just follow the money. And arms.

The main issue as far as reparations are concerned is the failure of those organisations who benefited from the use of slave labour (Jewish and non-Jewish) to pay out – not to mention the Vatican who benefited from the plunder of Serbian Orthodox Christians and participated in the laundering of the “booty”. This problem is currently being addressed in the courts and pertains to those victims who found themselves behind the iron curtain and without the freedom to seek legal recourse until recently.

However interesting this may be and probably true, it is of no concern to me as I will focus primarily on the mass-extermination issue.

Again I would ask you to read all of the transcript.

We will get nowhere (maybe that is your intention?) if you keep posting arguments and allegations without sources, and keep telling me to come up with arguments of my own.

If you somehow dispute the validity of my sources we should start a discussion on the validity of the sources and do so one by one.

By all means.

Originally posted by Xtrozero
Since the Nazis rounded up all the Jews and other groups from all over occupied countries and put them in concentration, death and slave work camps by the millions isn’t the death of every Jew whether they died by being shot in their own house or street, died in the cattle cars, died in the slave work camps, died in the death camps, died in the concentration camps by the Nazis or even from other prisoners all due to the actions of the Nazis, and this number is as at least 4 million?

Not according to the disputed numbers and not according to an alledged mass-extermination plan, no. War is hell, no need to make it worse...

Originally posted by Truth4hire
Your numbers are absolutely preposterous, and are well revised in 2002. You are trying to tell us that 5-6 million plus 2-3 million plus 2.7 million people dies under the hands of the nazi´s. That would be at least 9.7 million deaths and at most 11.7 million deaths. You keep telling me to do my research, but you are failing to accept revised numbers by established historians like J.C. Pressac? I really do not understand you or your motives KilgoreTrout. It is now established that a total of maximum 1.2 million people died in the camps under Nazi influence, this includes Jewish victims. 1.2 million. For whatever reason. These sources telling you otherwise need to start listening to their own proclaimed specialists and revise downwards.

Pressac’s work as far I have read does not deal with numbers but on operational aspects of the holocaust . For number ratifications you need to read, Franciszek Piper’s studies. Essays by both Piper and Pressac can be found in “Anatomy of Auschwitz”.

I don’t know whaere you get your numbers from so cannot comment on how established they are, they certainly do not correspond to any that I have read.

The Nazi regime was responsible for the deaths of approximately 11 million civilians, though not all of those died directly at the hands of the Germans (Ukrainians, Slovakians and Croatians contributed significantly to these deaths) they did die under their regime (including puppet states). Of that 11 million approximately 5 million were Jewish. Of that 5 million approximately 2.7 million were killed under Action Reinhard. Simple enough to understand I think and again common knowledge. Three million Poles alone were killed in preparation for Generalplan Ost.

Originally posted by Truth4hire

There were also an unknown number of non-Jewish slavs murdered during Action Reinhard, but since they were taken directly to the death camps and therefore not processed through camps there is no way of confirming numbers.

But there is: numbers and transports were very well documented, for example in of of the Oxford Journals there is a publication Die "Judendeportationen" aus dem Deutschen Reich 1941-1945: Ein kommentierte Chronologie.

As I clearly state, not all victims were processed and therefore we only have the testimony of those who survived such actions and the men who participated in the killings. Many were not “transported” more than a few miles. I suggest you read about the Zamosc Lands clearance and the Harvest Festival Massacre for further insight.

Originally posted by Truth4hire
I´m again totally lost with regards to what you mean by "many" were shot as partisans. I must assume you mean Hitler´s order to the Einsatzgruppen to kill all Jewish-Bolshewik Commissars in Russia "on the spot"? Please reveal the source of your information so I can understand you conslusion.

See “Hitler’s War” by David Irving – two separate orders.

Originally posted by Truth4hire
The more technical works like the Rudolf Report are highly scientific and well researched works.

The Rudolf Report unfortunately his research and sources are very limited, as a result he makes a number of errors and omits anything that contradicts his point of view. Had he chosen to be more specific and keep to the areas of his expertise his work may have had some value but since he tackles subjects of which he has little understanding (ie day to day life in the camp) he falls very short of producing a scientific work as you call it.

Originally posted by Truth4hire
Even so, my problem with Irving is that he has right-wing extermists ties. His last trial was a travesty in which he tried to back down from earlier findings just to please the court. That was cowardly in my opinion, him not standing by his own findings for fear of harsher sentencing. On the other hand, cannot really blame him!

I was in no way supporting Irving’s very foolish denial of the gas chambers but to his books which are intricately researched (he spent ten years writing “Hitler’s War”!!!). He has absolutely no expertise or knowledge to comment on whether the gas chambers existed or not. He unfortunately allowed others to influence his actions and in doing so walked right into the hands of those that had sought to silence him for decades. I would even be tempted to suggest that he was entrapped, but since you shy away from speculation I won’t.

Originally posted by Truth4hire
But I did read "the plethora of recent research", both revisionist work and mainstream historical work from Hilberg AND books from survivors. What more would you like me to research?? What gives you the impression I did not read recent research? Because I disagree with Your findings? You keep telling me to research and do my homework, but I get the impression that it is you who has not researched the revisionist material nearly far enough to get a complete picture.

I think that the problem here is that I am interested in the entire period and not just the Holocaust. You are obviously more interested in the Jewish experience, I am not. I have only read a few books by survivors. Your opinion on the “survivor” experience is therefore superior to mine.

Originally posted by Truth4hire
Pressac has never stated he doubts the mass-extermination policy.

I think you will find that this is not the case, Pressac’s work resulted from an intention to disprove the gas chambers, he found that he could not do that and was honest enough to admit it.

Originally posted by Truth4hire
"the generally ignorant" Wow, how sweeping can you get. I think that is an insult to anyone trying to find out the truth.

By generally ignorant, I refer to those who believe that only Jews died in the concentration camps, that Death and Concentration Camps were the same thing. He writes to expand the common perception of the genocides committed by the Nazis. However he does work from a political bias, as many do, but his is a little more evident than others.

Originally posted by Truth4hire
I cannot win here can I KilgoreTrout? Why do you keep pushing around in circles? No matter what I present or argue, you will still find a way to spin it.

I am sorry that it appears that way to you and quite frankly I cannot help but feel the futility of the argument too. I am spinning nothing, just trying to point out that if you only look at something from one direction you will never understand the whole.

I am not attempting to trivialise anything. I think that it should be left to the individual what they choose to believe, if slander or libel is inflicted then fair enough but if there is no victim then there is in these cases no crime. The laws to my mind are knee-jerk liberalism and should be removed as they benefit no one. Honest opinion, not trivialising.

Originally posted by Truth4hire

However interesting this may be and probably true, it is of no concern to me as I will focus primarily on the mass-extermination issue.

There you go, thanks for the interesting discussion but I am interested in those issues that are not so well documented and are largely ignored by the mass media. You have a wealth of information available at your finger tips and I need not add to that, certainly all the works you refer to are widely available on the internet. I am not so fortunate.

All the best.

See “Hitler’s War” by David Irving – two separate orders.

(to liquidate the Jews). I did look it up:

Many people, particularly in Germany and Austria, had an interest in propagating the accepted version that the order of one madman originated the entire massacre. Precisely when the order was given and in what form has, admittedly, never been established. In 1939?—but the secret extermination camps did not begin operating until December 1941. At the January 1942 “Wannsee Conference”?—but the incontrovertible evidence is that Hitler ordered on November 30, 1941, that there was to be “no liquidation” of the Jews (without much difficulty, I found in Himmler’s private files his own handwritten note on this).

David Irving: Hitler´s War - Introduction

Or was this not what you meant?

Pressac’s work as far I have read does not deal with numbers but on operational aspects of the holocaust .

On the contrary, Pressac did a lot of calculations:

Pressac arrives at a figure of 630,000 people who were supposedly gassed at Auschwitz. In the German edition of his book, he reduced this number further down to 470,000 to 550,000. (J.-C. Pressac, Die Krematorien von Auschwitz. Die Technik des Massenmordes, Piper, Munich 1994, p. 202. ) Suddenly the million victims of Auschwitz are no million anymore. Several years ago, the Poles lowered their official figures of Auschwitz “gassing” victims. Raul Hilberg in the United States, François Bédarida in France, and Yehuda Bauer in Israel have each lowered their figures. Pressac lowers them still further.

Faurisson, Mattogno, Rudolf & Thion: Auschwitz: Plain facts, a response to Jean-Claude Pressac, Page 49

The Rudolf Report unfortunately his research and sources are very limited, as a result he makes a number of errors and omits anything that contradicts his point of view. Had he chosen to be more specific and keep to the areas of his expertise his work may have had some value but since he tackles subjects of which he has little understanding (ie day to day life in the camp) he falls very short of producing a scientific work as you call it.

Rudolf is a summa cum laude Diplom-Chemiker (which is about as specialized as you can get) who was briefly associated with the Max-Planck institute. (before they kicked him for "unautorised use of institute resources" for his publishings) His expertise was chemistry. His report was about the chemical residues of BlauSaure (Zyklon-B residue) on the walls of the Crematoria and Leichenkeller in Auschwitz.

From his resumé:

Education
----------------
1983: Elite School Diploma in Germany (cum laude)
1983-1989: Studying Chemistry at Bonn University: Diplom Degree (between Master and PhD) with summa cum laude
1989: Compulsory service in German army (Luftwaffe; Private 1 Class)
1990-1993: Scholarship at Max-Planck-Institute for Solid State research (Stuttgart, Germany), preparation of PhD thesis, completed in summer 1993: final examination denied for political reasons.
1994: College studies in Business Management

germarrudolf.com

I think you will find that this is not the case, Pressac’s work resulted from an intention to disprove the gas chambers, he found that he could not do that and was honest enough to admit it.

You are right, he started out as a denier and changed his mind after research which resulted in several works. Naturally he has never been prosecuted because he is now in the exterminationalist camp, and his books support the official version of the Holocaust. He is however completely taken apart in Auschwitz: Plain facts. Now that book is banned and burned. Funny, in reading it I could not find anything to justify that. Hmm.

I am spinning nothing, just trying to point out that if you only look at something from one direction you will never understand the whole.

Then at least get your quoted facts straight please.

There you go, thanks for the interesting discussion but I am interested in those issues that are not so well documented and are largely ignored by the mass media. You have a wealth of information available at your finger tips and I need not add to that, certainly all the works you refer to are widely available on the internet. I am not so fortunate.

Now, now. No need to back down. I wonder which issues are not so well documented and largely ignored by the media. Sounds like revisionist material which is illegal and persecuted all over the place. However, you cannot research something without reference and a library. Thanks to the internet indeed most research is available. If I were to walk into a library over where I am, I will not find any books by revisionists.

They are outlawed and banned.

Partial list of outlawed books, Source CODOH

Der Fall Günter Deckert (The Günter Deckert Case), Günther Anntohn, Henri Roques Germany
Der Ball Report (The Ball Report), John C. Ball Germany
Verschwörung des Verschweigens, J.G. Burg Germany
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, Arthur R. Butz Canada, Germany
Geheimakte Gestapo-Müller (Gestapo Chief), Gregory Douglas Germany
Grundlagen zur Zeitgeschichte (Foundations of Contemporary History), Ernst Gauss Germany
Der Holocaust auf dem Prüfstand, Jürgen Graf Germany
Der Holocaust-Schwindel (The Holocaust Swindle), Jürgen Graf Germany
Siegerjustiz in Dachau (Innocent in Dachau), Josef Halow Germany
The Great Holocaust Trial, Michael A. Hoffman II Canada
Freispruch für Hitler?, Gerd Honsik Germany
The Case for David Irving: The Selective censorship of history and free speech, Nigel Jackson Canada
Das Rudolf Gutachten (The Rudolf Report), Rüdiger Kammerer, Armin Solms Germany
Prof. Dr. Ernst Nolte: Auch Holocaust-Lügen haben kurze Beine, Manfred Köhler Germany
Nicht schuldig in Nürnberg (Not Guilty in Nuremberg), Carlos Whitlock Porter Germany
Der Fall Rudolf (The Rudolf Case), Wilhelm Schlesiger Germany
Der Auschwitz-Mythos (The Auschwitz Myth), Wilhelm Stäglich Germany
Politische Wahrheit oder Historische Wahrheit?, Serge Thion Germany
Feuerzeichen (Flashpoint: Kristallnacht 1938), Ingrid Weckert Germany

So much for free speech.

reply to post by Nygdan


the main thing I think is whether or not the "holocaust did or didnt happen is not as important as how many innocent jews and people were murdered putting a name to it, in reality means nothing, they still died and its a fu*&ed situation no matter what angle you look at it

I think it is just horrible and am thankful I was not involved

Originally posted by MurderCityDevil
reply to post by Nygdan

 

the main thing I think is whether or not the "holocaust did or didnt happen is not as important as how many innocent jews and people were murdered putting a name to it, in reality means nothing, they still died and its a fu*&ed situation no matter what angle you look at it

I think it is just horrible and am thankful I was not involved

It is indeed horrible and should never have happened, but it does indeed matter if people were murdered and how many. It would mean a lot to entire generations of Germans who were not even alive when this event took place and who have had to carry the eternal guilt with them ever since they were born. Not to mention the fact that to this day they are paying (through taxes) huge sums of money in reparations to the state of Israël.

Originally posted by Truth4hire
David Irving: Hitler´s War - Introduction
Or was this not what you meant?

No it is not, I don’t know the exact page and do not own the book so cannot readily look it up – if you insist I will get the page reference. I cannot recommend the book enough and suggest that you try it. It is a very large book but well worth the time. When he wrote the book in 1977 it was revisionism at its finest.

The document that Irving refers to in the introduction refers to a telephone call that Himmler made to Reinhard Heydrich that he should halt the planned “liquidations” at that time. This phone call was made at Hitler’s insistence. Irving explains this and the background in “Hitler’s War”.

As I said it is an amazing piece of research and having read it I now comprehend the difficulties that Irving has faced in his career and the thoroughly unfair way in which he has been treated. Irving had the misfortune to be the first to bring us the “real history” of the second world war and Hitlerism – in 1977 the British establishment did not want us to hear what he had to say. I feel immense sympathy for Irving, I think it is perfectly understandable that he has found solace in the support of the far-right. Can you imagine working for ten years and then being shunned? Having read this book as well as his books on Goering, Hess and Dr Morrel (Hitler’s personal physician) I have nothing but admiration for the man.

Originally posted by Truth4hire

Pressac arrives at a figure of 630,000 people who were supposedly gassed at Auschwitz. In the German edition of his book, he reduced this number further down to 470,000 to 550,000. (J.-C. Pressac, Die Krematorien von Auschwitz. Die Technik des Massenmordes, Piper, Munich 1994, p. 202. ) Suddenly the million victims of Auschwitz are no million anymore. Several years ago, the Poles lowered their official figures of Auschwitz “gassing” victims. Raul Hilberg in the United States, François Bédarida in France, and Yehuda Bauer in Israel have each lowered their figures. Pressac lowers them still further.

Faurisson, Mattogno, Rudolf & Thion: Auschwitz: Plain facts, a response to Jean-Claude Pressac, Page 49

www.holocaust-history.org...

This is the document to which that quote refers to – I presume firstly that the online versions pages do not correspond with the cited page number– but if you can find any numbers in that document that correspond fair play, but I do not recall seeing them in there. You are welcome to prove me wrong – I often am.

There are much more thorough studies of the numbers (Piper) at Auschwitz and Pressac’s work is concerned primarily with the day-to-day operation of the camp. As I cannot read German I cannot verify whether they appear in the German version. I don’t recall him coming to any conclusion about numbers though he does discuss capacity and capability which involves some calculations.

Originally posted by Truth4hire
Rudolf is a summa cum laude Diplom-Chemiker (which is about as specialized as you can get) who was briefly associated with the Max-Planck institute. (before they kicked him for "unautorised use of institute resources" for his publishings) His expertise was chemistry. His report was about the chemical residues of BlauSaure (Zyklon-B residue) on the walls of the Crematoria and Leichenkeller in Auschwitz.

From his resumé:

Education
----------------
1983: Elite School Diploma in Germany (cum laude)
1983-1989: Studying Chemistry at Bonn University: Diplom Degree (between Master and PhD) with summa cum laude
1989: Compulsory service in German army (Luftwaffe; Private 1 Class)
1990-1993: Scholarship at Max-Planck-Institute for Solid State research (Stuttgart, Germany), preparation of PhD thesis, completed in summer 1993: final examination denied for political reasons.
1994: College studies in Business Management

germarrudolf.com

Yes fully qualified to comment on matters relating to Chemistry, therefore I am willing to consider his chemical analysis of the Gas Chambers but he comes into questionability by his insistence at straying into areas beyond his sphere of knowledge.

Originally posted by Truth4hire
You are right, he started out as a denier and changed his mind after research which resulted in several works. Naturally he has never been prosecuted because he is now in the exterminationalist camp, and his books support the official version of the Holocaust. He is however completely taken apart in Auschwitz: Plain facts. Now that book is banned and burned. Funny, in reading it I could not find anything to justify that. Hmm.

What is the “Exterminationalist Camp”? Do his books support the official version? Maybe, but more importantly they allow us to more fully understand what happened in the camps on a day to day basis, they help us understand how and why so many people died. This is true historical revisionism. There is no official version, the entire history has not been discovered or written yet. In a hundred years we may have closure, but we are still far from that and there are many, many secrets yet to uncover.

The book is banned and burned. Yet YOU have read it. Think about that, I mean it as no criticism, just as an observation of the freedoms that you and I still have. That, to me, is an enormous responsibility. Others are far less blessed.

Originally posted by Truth4hire

I am spinning nothing, just trying to point out that if you only look at something from one direction you will never understand the whole.

Then at least get your quoted facts straight please.

This is not a competition and I have offered nothing other than my opinion. I have quoted no other works directly or indirectly without stating so as I recall, my comments are based predominantly on acquired knowledge. If I am incorrect on a matter than point that out, if I have not come across a particular piece of information then I will generally say so – whether you choose to inform me is your choice.

Originally posted by Truth4hire

There you go, thanks for the interesting discussion but I am interested in those issues that are not so well documented and are largely ignored by the mass media. You have a wealth of information available at your finger tips and I need not add to that, certainly all the works you refer to are widely available on the internet. I am not so fortunate.

Now, now. No need to back down.

Tactical withdrawal – I sense an exercise in futility for both of us. Time is precious.

Originally posted by Truth4hire
Thanks to the internet indeed most research is available. If I were to walk into a library over where I am, I will not find any books by revisionists.

They are outlawed and banned.

I would gladly stand shoulder to shoulder with you and protest censorship. I do not have to agree with the content of the books that have been banned to believe that is wrong to ban them. All information should be freely available to enable each individual to make up their own mind.

Originally posted by Truth4hire
It is indeed horrible and should never have happened, but it does indeed matter if people were murdered and how many. It would mean a lot to entire generations of Germans who were not even alive when this event took place and who have had to carry the eternal guilt with them ever since they were born. Not to mention the fact that to this day they are paying (through taxes) huge sums of money in reparations to the state of Israël.

Not a reply to me but I think this is significant.

Why should German Tax Payers be paying for the reparations? Why aren’t those companies who actually benefited from the exploitational labour practices of the men, women and boys of the concentration camps not digging in their pockets?

I don’t feel that the ordinary German people should feel any more guilt than the rest of us. There but for the grace of god go I. Who are we to say what we would have done until we stand in those shoes

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


I find this so disturbing. I know a woman, my cousin's grandmother, alive right now, who was in auchwitz, has the tattoos. And still has her uniform from auchwitz.It is a burlap shirt and pants. She saved it after all these years.She lost her entire family. She is getting her own exhibit at the smithsonian holocaust museum. The stories are heartbreaking.

No, she isn't rich, just wating out her life. And I feel so sad that ideas are going around like this.

Originally posted by nixie_nox
The stories are heartbreaking. (...) And I feel so sad that ideas are going around like this.

The persecution of the Jews surely is one of the biggest crimes against humanity of the century, but the Holocaust (mass-extermination) must be critically researched and debated without fear of prosecution if the whole truth is to be known.

The Holocaust has turned into a form of religion over time, which cannot be doubted, questioned under pain of law.

If there is nothing to hide, these strict denial laws would not be neccessary.

If mass-exterminations were to be easily proven, the discussions between exterminationalists and revisionists would be practically non existent, whereas now there are only increasing in strenght, despite the ever more rigorous legal actions taken by the various governments.

To me, burning books and putting reputable scholars behind bars for researching the Holocaust is a scary thing, and very, very sad.

Originally posted by Truth4hire
I´m again totally lost with regards to what you mean by "many" were shot as partisans. I must assume you mean Hitler´s order to the Einsatzgruppen to kill all Jewish-Bolshewik Commissars in Russia "on the spot"? Please reveal the source of your information so I can understand you conslusion.

Quite by chance the information I was refering to is included in the book I am currently reading (The lake, the Villa, the Meeting: Wannsee and the Final Solution by Mark Roseman - Good book so far).

I will quote direct from the book for simplicity;

'...there is an entry in Himmler's appointments calender following a meeting with Hitler of 18 December (1941) "Judenfrage/ als Partisanen auszurotten" (Jewish Question/ to be eliminated as partisans)..' page 61.

Anyway, I was wrong it was not an order as such (but then I shouldn't need to tell you that few orders can be directly traced to Hitler with regard to the 'Jewish Question' one of the many things that impedes our complete understanding of the events).

It does also appear in Irving's book I'm sure of it, but I was pleased with the synchronicity of finding in this book also - thought I'd share while I remember.

All the best

reply to post by Nygdan


To all Holocaust deniers: you need to watch Ken Burns' documentary on WWII, and visit the US Holocaust Museum.

Just butting in here with a quick general comment - this year has been a watershed for me as I try unpeel the (neverending!!) layers of lies I have been fed my whole life and take for "truth" or "fact". My worldview has been turned upside down so that I now find it easier to just assume that most of what I've been taught and read is a lie and a distortion to hide the truth and empower the elite. I am sure that a large number of "truths" that I've been told/read about the Holocaust are false or misleading and I will take time to watch the video that started the thread.

Reading and listening to Eric Phelps and his indepth information about the Jesuits' role in human affairs, he makes it clear that Roosevelt, Stalin, Churchill, and Hitler where all in cohoots, that Hitler was following orders from the Jesuits, the large term aim is to empower the Pope, Hitler killed/allowed to be bombed his own German people (protestants) (Dresden). Don't know if his insights are useful or relevant, just that I have found his research to be informative and eye-opening.

Originally posted by shokdee
Reading and listening to Eric Phelps and his indepth information about the Jesuits' role in human affairs, he makes it clear that Roosevelt, Stalin, Churchill, and Hitler where all in cohoots, that Hitler was following orders from the Jesuits, the large term aim is to empower the Pope, Hitler killed/allowed to be bombed his own German people (protestants) (Dresden). Don't know if his insights are useful or relevant, just that I have found his research to be informative and eye-opening.

So you read and listened to someone who can be at best described as a disinformation agent, at worst as a protestant fundamentalist and it is now "clear" to you that Stalin, Roosevelt, Hitler and Churchill were in all cohoots.

Eric Phelps is as biased a source as I have ever come across, he is naive beyond belief (which is why I feel he must be disinfo - no-one can be that ill-educated surely) and his grasp on European history is rudimentary (elementary???) at best.

My advice to you, get a library ticket and read more books. Develop your own opinion, you sound as if you have intelligence - use it.

holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com...

This site claims to debunk all of 1/3 of the Holocaust's points.

In connection to this topic, I have started a petition to get the German anti-denial laws repealed. I think they are disgraceful and reminiscent of the Spanish Inquisition who burned Giordano Bruno alive for refusing to recant from his belief in the teachings of Nicholas Copernicus.

Whether you fully agree with the Holocaust narrative as it presently stands, or whether you question it, what is at stake here is a basic issue of freedom of speech, which I would hope most people here would agree with.

Please read the petition here

www.petitiononline.com...

and sign your name if you agree. I'm afraid it has to be real names, internet tags will not do. When the petition has enough signatures I intend to send it to the Bundesrat (German government) petition committee, here www.bundestag.de...

thanks,

kenochi (Mark Turley)

[edit on 23-1-2008 by kenochi]

I'm sick of hearing that the holocaust never happened!! It happened!

Originally posted by NellahB
I'm sick of hearing that the holocaust never happened!! It happened!

And Im sick of hearing miss informed people saying we said it never happened.

when will people get it into there heads that no one ever denied it happened, but only question the accuracy of the details.