One Third Of The Holocaust:More Compelling Evidence It Never Happened

Well IMO I think that you cant really deny that the holocaust happened. Jewish people were murdered and the Nazi's intended to exterminate them.The End. But the only problem I have is with the death toll. Not to say that the ordeal wasn't terrible and horrific and effected alot of people. I just disagree with the seemingly general consensus that 6 million people were actually killed I think it was a high number 1mill-2mill but not 6mill. That is just my 2cet worth.

with regard to your first point, its obviously not 'end of story', which is why there is so much discussion of the subject around. I would point out as well that by suggesting you think the death toll is as low as a million, you are actually categorising yourself as a 'denier' in the eyes of many. (Deflating the 6 million figure is often cited as being one of, if not the main characteristic of 'denial'.)

Originally posted by kenochi
with regard to your first point, its obviously not 'end of story', which is why there is so much discussion of the subject around. I would point out as well that by suggesting you think the death toll is as low as a million, you are actually categorising yourself as a 'denier' in the eyes of many. (Deflating the 6 million figure is often cited as being one of, if not the main characteristic of 'denial'.)

um ok .. Im not saying well you know only amillion were killed so the jewish people are exagerating (sp?). And i am not saying that if the number were closer to 1mill that it would make less tragic. Honestly its prob higher than a couple mill but imo its not 6mill. i dont see what im denying, i mean its not like there's proof that 6 mill is the right number, higher than the right number or even lower than the right number. To my knowledge (and i could be completely wrong here) but there has been no sort of accurate 'official count' ---But i dont know i just feel like by you saying i would be catergorized as a 'denier' then your in a sense grouping my opinion with those who I dont feel i should be grouped with (anti-semites). Im not sure if that was your intention or if im just focusing on that one word but..i dont like that word(denier)


---BTW that end of story comment, was that directed at me?b/c i didnt say that

fair enough, you wrote 'the end' not 'end of story'. Apologies - I'm tired.
The point is that as soon as you start questioning any aspect of the holocaust story you're instantly branded as a 'denier'. There are people who have been prosecuted in some countries for saying what you said.
Denial or revisionism isn't anti-semitic as far as I'm concerned. Some deniers may be anti-semitic, other may not. (Some well-known deniers have actually been Jewish). Its about history, facts and evidence.

I agree it is about history and facts. So as soon a you or anyone can provide me with some sort of evidence, saying that the death toll is around 6 mill i will have no problem believing it. It just seems to me like its a random guesstimate. I just wanna know how did people come to that conclusion? I know some concntration camps had lists of names. I also know that due to the babaric nature is which the jewish people were kidnapped and murdered there is no way to obtain a 100% accurate number but like i asked before who came up with the 6mill figure?

The figure commonly used is the six million quoted by Adolf Eichmann, a senior SS official. Most research confirms that the number of victims was between five and six million

Source

Not gonna chime in on the debate. Just wanted to answer Implied Chaos's question.

I decided to look up some information for myself to see how the 6 mill figure was reached. And i pretty much read alot of irrafutable (sp?) data such as a census that was done before and after. Now I fully agree that te death toll was somewhere around 6mill or more. It just seems that everytime I have learned about the holcaust in school or on T.V. noone had been able to tell me how that figure came to be.Anyways I apologize and I have been convinced.

Glad to see someone is convinced.

I am convinced the death toll is around 600-700.000 deaths in the camps and 300.000 to 350.000 outside the camps. A total of around 1 million.

In itself more than enough to call it a tragedy.

This does not excuse the so called witnesses for exagerating and sometimes flat out lying about what really happened in the concentration camps.

It´s not fair for the German people to have to pay billions and billions in damages for the Holocaust when it is grossly exaggerated and secondly there are many, many more examples of cruelties in modern history where there is no sign of any compensation payments to any relatives of victims.

It´s not fair that generations and generations of Germans need to suffer under this "eternal sin" EVEN if all of it is true. Sins of the fathers? It´s time to stop don´t you think? The Holocaust is being turned into some form of religion which is untouchable, and that, whose side you may be on is simply not right.

It´s not fair that someone who even remotely questions the gaschambers, the figures or the Holocaust itself being sent to jail, not even being allowed to argue his or her case. THAT´s FASCISM.

It´s UNHEALTHY that certain movements are trying to get a E.U. law passed to even further condone imprisonment for questioning the Holocaust.

That´s George Orwell being RIGHT.

Originally posted by sky1
One last comment......Because I think Zionism is wrong does not mean I am anti-semitic. Jews and Zionists are NOT one in the same.

That is what is dangerous now days, because anybody who says anything negative about Israel is labeled and anti semite. You can't point out their racist practices in regards to the Palestinians without being called an anti semite, you can't point out their indescriminate bombing and murder of civilians or anything without being called and anti semite, and technically speaking Semitics are the people of the semitic language groups. Hebrew, Aramians, Syrians, Coptics, Ethiopians, etc. Many people in Israel now days aren't even of semitic in origin genetically. Even though Zionists often publish pseudo scientific propaganda claiming such. That is why you have far away peoples like the Lemba who are dark as night yet genetically are much more semitic then most of the people in Israel now.

Originally posted by D_Mason
That is what is dangerous now days, because anybody who says anything negative about Israel is labeled and anti semite. You can't point out their racist practices in regards to the Palestinians without being called an anti semite, you can't point out their indescriminate bombing and murder of civilians or anything without being called and anti semite, and technically speaking Semitics are the people of the semitic language groups. Hebrew, Aramians, Syrians, Coptics, Ethiopians, etc.

Very well spoken...

You must be aware by now that Zionists just happen to be Jews and not the other way around? There are even orthodox Jews who strongly oppose the Zionists and demonstrate about it in public. What really bothers me is that in most European countries nowadays it is a crime to question the Holocaust in any way shape or form, punishable by prinson sentences and large fines.

When I see the reactions on A.T.S. there is much, much work to do to bring Revisionism to mainstream attention. History must be discussable without concequences in a free society, period.

[edit on 15-5-2007 by Truth4hire]

The information won't be released for researchers, but after 50 years Nazi archives will be unsealed and distributed to member states.

Copies of Nazi archive to be released to Holocaust institutions

By The Associated Press

Copies of an invaluable Nazi archive, locked away in a quiet German town
for more than 50 years, will be released to Holocaust institutions within a few months, under an agreement reached Tuesday.

The documents will give historians an intimate inside view of the Nazi
machinery of oppression and death, and will let survivors and victims' families search for their own histories, as recorded by their tormentors.

The 11-nation governing body of the International Tracing Service, which runs the archive in Bad Arolsen, Germany, voted to sidestep legalities and begin distributing electronic copies to the member states as soon as they are ready.

Source

Hopefully these documents will one day settle the debate.

some content of the Bad Arolsen archives have been known for many years. I even have a section of it on my website, here...
www.markturley.com...

there's a reason this information is not being made freely available to the public. Quite simply, it offers no support whatsoever to the 6 million / gas chamber claim and actually clearly contradicts it.
In fact, the archives seem to suggest that total deaths in German controlled camps, of all peoples (jews, poles, roma etc) amounted to less than 400,000.
The figures were originally revealed by Holocaust researcher Georges Thiel, who was imprisoned for doing so.

Time to enter another 'The Holocaust never happened!' thread.

You know what the funniest thing about 'Holocaust revision' is? The fact that it's only occuring as the vast majority of victims were Jewish.
If Hitler decided to exterminate all the Protestants/Catholics in Europe would this alternate Holocaust be subject to 'Historical revisionism'? Exactly.

Alright, two can play at this game:Stalin never exterminated, neither directly or indirectly, the millions he was said to have wiped out. Any attempts at proving this is mere capitalistic propoganda, promoted by the Corporate Fat Cats to create the ultimate State of Greed.

if that's all you've got to say, it would have been better if you hadn't bothered. You have no facts or evidence of any kind in your comment. You make an initial statement which simply isn't true - that 'deniers' say that nothing happened. (They don't say this at all). You then argue against your own fallacy by comparing it to a completely different situation.
Russia was not defeated in WW2, was not on its knees at the mercy of its conquerors and was not forced to sign a peace settlement based on a series of wholly corrupt war-crimes trials. As a comparison it just doesn't stand up.
History is constantly being revised as anyone who studies it in any depth will be able to tell you. The holocaust apparently is different to other historical subjects and has its historiography enshrined in law, immune to challenge. Why? Its got nothing to do with Jews and jewishness. If revisionism is anti-semitic, as you allege, how do you explain jewish revisionists?

Originally posted by ThePieMaN
The information won't be released for researchers, but after 50 years Nazi archives will be unsealed and distributed to member states.

Copies of Nazi archive to be released to Holocaust institutions

By The Associated Press

Copies of an invaluable Nazi archive, locked away in a quiet German town
for more than 50 years, will be released to Holocaust institutions within a few months, under an agreement reached Tuesday.

The documents will give historians an intimate inside view of the Nazi
machinery of oppression and death, and will let survivors and victims' families search for their own histories, as recorded by their tormentors.

The 11-nation governing body of the International Tracing Service, which runs the archive in Bad Arolsen, Germany, voted to sidestep legalities and begin distributing electronic copies to the member states as soon as they are ready.

Source

Hopefully these documents will one day settle the debate.

based on what kenochi said, it does not sound like these documents are going to help prove any official claims.

i wouldn't be at all suprised if we see a global catastrophic event before those archives ever get released in thier entirety.


ive posted this quote before, so i appologize, but as long as it remains a fact that this was said, i will never believe anything that was ever officially claimed about the holocaust

The trials were conducted under their own rules of evidence; the indictments were created ex post facto and were not based on any nation's law; the tu quoque defense was removed; and some claim the entire spirit of the assembly was "victor's justice". Article 19 of the Nuremberg International Military Tribunal Charter reads as follows:


"The Tribunal shall not be bound by technical rules of evidence. It shall adopt and apply to the greatest possible extent expeditious and nontechnical procedure, and shall admit any evidence which it deems to be of probative value."
en.wikipedia.org...

in other words, if it sounded at all probable, the Nazi's were convicted for it.

way to go justice.

and now i have to worry about being accused of crimes myself because i do not find such convictions valid.

I want to clarify something. I do not question the Holocaust. My beef is that it is illegal for others who wish to question, refute or reseach it are being muzzled, coerced, harrassed, blacklisted, slandered, jailed and even threatened. I do not know of any other type of situation where such things are practiced. I think its pretty shameful that someone can be arrested for merely stating what he or she believes. There is a hypocrisy. However its not surprising. Seems to me that people of the Jewish faith practice questioning events which occurred to other races just fine and even encourage research into it rather then through matters of law.

'Never again' for Armenians too
Several American Jewish groups abandon their anti-genocide zeal when it comes to Turkey's massacre of Armenians.
By Daniel Sokatch and David N. Myers, DANIEL SOKATCH is executive director of the Progressive Jewish Alliance. DAVID N. MYERS teaches Jewish history at UCLA.
May 1, 2007


THIS YEAR, Congress established April 15 as Holocaust Memorial Day, commemorating the Nazi genocide of European Jewry. Just nine days later, on April 24, Armenians throughout the world observed the commemoration of their great tragedy: the massacre of as many as 1.5 million Armenians at the hands of the Turks that began in 1915.

In many ways, it was the 20th century's first genocide that helped set the stage for its largest, including Rwanda and now Darfur. Adolf Hitler reportedly said, on the eve of his invasion of Poland in 1939, "Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?"

For the last 60 years, the Jewish community has labored to avoid granting Hitler, in the words of philosopher Emil Fackenheim, "a posthumous victory." Jews have taken as their motto "never again," and most tend to understand that this charge refers to all of humanity, not only to fellow Jews. One of the last surviving leaders of the Warsaw Ghetto uprising, Simha "Kazik" Rotem, once said that the central lesson of the Holocaust to him was that the Jewish people should stand vigilant against genocidal acts directed at any people.

This is why it is troubling that some major Jewish organizations have lined up in support of Turkey's efforts to keep the U.S. Congress from recognizing the Armenian massacres as an act of genocide. The Anti-Defamation League (ADL), the American Jewish Committee (AJC), the Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs (JINSA) and B'nai B'rith International recently conveyed a letter from the Turkish Jewish community opposing a resolution recognizing the genocide.

The ADL and the JINSA also added their own statements of opposition, suggesting that the massacre of Armenians was a matter for historians, not legislators, to decide.

Source

A Matter for historians to decide...as long as it doesn't pertain to the Holocaust where the legislators are urged to decide instead.










[edit on 25-5-2007 by ThePieMaN]

2004 - Stanislaw Ryniak, the first prisoner of Auschwitz, dead at age 88.

When I saw this article, my first reaction was to laugh at the irony, simply because even before seeing this, I had always marveled at the seemingly endless parade of survivors that lived to tell the tale. So at age 24, the first prisoner of Auschwitz hangs out there for 4 years, then goes to a work camp, and then lives to age 88. It just seems so uncharacteristically inefficient of the Germans to run a "death camp" that produced so many survivors. To me, anyway.

www.usatoday.com...

Tom goose - thanks for posting up the nuremburg charter section. Fascinating. I hadn't read that before. A court that is 'not bound by technical rules of evidence'. Unbelievable. No wonder US Supreme Court Justice Harlan Fiske-Stone described the trials as a 'high grade lynching party'.
No wonder it is recorded in the transcripts that there were electro chambers at Majdanek and Steam Chambers at Chelmno.
No wonder Nazis were convicted for Katyn forest.
People could just stand up and accuse the Nazis of anything and the court would accept it.
The thing is, once you remove the Nuremburg evidence from the Holocaust legend, what are you left with?
I've been interested in the subject for a few years but I find it amazing that anyone can still believe this story.

Originally posted by kenochi
I've been interested in the subject for a few years but I find it amazing that anyone can still believe this story.

As a PhD student in Conflict Resolution and Analysis, I find your assertion that YOU spent "a few years" near ludicrous, along with your belief system.

Personally, I find it utterly amazing that people like you still don't believe that such occurred. Pretty sad if you ask me. The proofs and evidences speak for themselves. To dispute them is not revisionism, as some skeptics would have you believe, but pure unadulterated, self-delusional denial.

I personally have never understood the fascination with denial of the Holocaust. Back in the mid seventies I had the opportunity to take a tour of Dachau. Even 30 years after the fall of Nazi Germany the smell of death was still in the air. I will not forget what I saw there and even to this day I cant understand the inhumanity of it all. Most prisoners at Dachau were not Jewish they were either Eastern European POWS or Political dissidents .
I lost a family member in that camp. normally I dont get into threads with is topic because for me the Holocaust isnt some theory for my family where you argue about numbers, its a fact.

Dachau Concentration Camp Memorial Site