China, it's military capabilities, and chinese nationalists

immature? why do i even talk to ppl who like to conclude things based on their assumptions and imaginations?

Ya sure..

-china is a third world country with ppl having an average income of less than $1500 US dollar a year.
-so they can't afford food and are starving.
-due to the totally failure of their evil brain washing communists dictatorship, chinese ppl are hoping to have a movement to topple their government; hopefully the US/Japan/taiwan government will step in and help them to do so.
-chinese government today abuses ppl, and use them like slaves, and heavily pollutes the environment. the money they made from those slavery labours are being used for the government officials' personal perposes.
-major movements led by organizations such as FalunGong, or FreeTibet are leading chinese ppl away for their government, ppl see them as their saviours.
-based on the current scenerio, china will hopefully claps within the next few years.

herhaps if i talk like that you'd think i'm an "open minded" person eh? now whos the one being not open minded?

yeh... Merrikans... what can i say about them..

Is this the new Merrikan Dream or what?

--------
who haven't seen anything yet?
herhaps you have heard the cersorship from some media, but i've seen the cersorship with my own eyes
infact the webs that got blocked are basically all anti-china related websites such as freetibet, Falungong, pro-taiwan independence etc. or websites that contain related info on those things

if they really want to limit ppls knowledge, why would they allow chinese televsion service to have CNN/Fox/BBC channel? why don't they censor ATS forum?
interesting eh? never realized you can watch CNN in china eh?

[edit on 1/29/2007 by warset]

Originally posted by chinawhite
Cultural revolution was good in my opinion, it was a massive re-education program to destroy the old Chinese mentality of slave labor and superstitious and embarrassment past rulers have caused the average Chinese with a European flair. It was obviously nessary since corupption, gambling and other so called "olds" were re-appearing and needed to be stamped out.

Despite the fact that the Cultural Revolution destroyed the lives of countless innocent people, it really didn't achieve its aims. Corruption in CHina is extraordinary, so is gambling not to mention the sex trade in Southern China.
I have found it very interesting doing business here, it's all about the Guanxi ( Reraltionship building ). Whihc basically involves bribing the necessary governement officials and taking your customers to dinner drinking and KTV ( Karaoke with girls ). It isn't refered to as a mens paradise here for nothing

Dinner, drinking and Karaoke?, is that somewhere in remote china, LOL

EDIT: Actually what came to mind were movies involving the blacker areas of Chinese society like the Triads as portrayed in the YnD series about Karaoke

Most things in my uncles house were "gifts" including his car .


Guanxi - Let me tell you something about this word, its code name for foreigner what actually happens between actual Chinese people (In that sense a mainlander) is family to family connection. Before the economic reforms you might have known that china was split into communes and collectives, when the reforms opened and investments poured in the families where still living there and selected a 头头 which means cadre or chief. These people look after their local area and any investment or projects go by them. There are different ones for different areas. My grandfather was one and my uncle is one (uncle in the sense of my actual aunties husband).

Because projects need approval by the 头头 there are gifts given to make signing the paper sweeter. Being a 头头 he knows and is friends with others of the same rank and approval rest on them. They take each other out to dinner but never have to take foreigners out. One of the reasons why my father got those apartments so cheap because he was informed of the project before they got on the market.

My father could have easily been a official, think 1984 a graduate in a famous provincial university in engineering in a china where university graduates where in short supply. The thing that made him move overseas was the wages of everyone living there were extremely low

I have found it very interesting doing business here

Well obviously

Despite the fact that the Cultural Revolution destroyed the lives of countless innocent people, it really didn't achieve its aims

How would you describe innocent?, people who once where landlords but now living like the rest of people or the officials who still thought old or talked about things against what everyone else thought. How about the thugs that terrorised the small communities that were put to death when the communist came to power. I have a story about my local area being victim to gangsters and later being rescued by the communist

The goals were to destroy the four olds

Old Custom, Old Culture, Old Habits, and Old Ideas

[edit on 30-1-2007 by chinawhite]

Here are the mud crabs he gets each week for looking the other way to illegal fishing

Originally posted by pilotshinjiikaru
Im sure your going to say WHERES THE PROOF?

Heres your proof

www.abovetopsecret.com...

That thread was actually posted when i first started coming on to forums and different have proper guides so i asked whether this was or was not a Chinese carrier

Janes is paid for their assessment which doesnt come from internet sources but by defense analysts.

Go back and read where Janes credits their information. The pictures they have are mostly sourced from China-Defense.com. A notable English Chinese defence forum including ex-military and current military personal. The owner or adimistrator was invited to join a conference held in front of congress regarding chinas military modernisation

And on Taiwan, theres really no one in power outside of China and its allies, important here I said allies. That believe that Taiwan wants to RIGHT NOW, AT THIS VERY MOMENT subvert to communist rule.

You need to re-read your history post-1990. The chinese government has always up-held the one-china, two system policy with Taiwan and other pocessions

Originally posted by pilotshinjiikaru
Right im sure it makes so much sense that the US wanted to invade north korea because it let north korea survive all that time until it invaded the south.

So when the US crossed the 38th parallel they were only temporarily staying?

And Im sure the US wanted to invade China

And the Reason they were bombing the other side of the Yalu, still supporting the KMT whos leader fled to Taiwan as he put it "temporarily" and MacArthur's plan to send KMT troops to invade southern china. As you should already know, the Korean war started almost when the last of the KMT fled to Taiwan to supposedly re-group.

Another well known fact was the 7th Fleet was sent to stop invasions from either side of the straits since the communist hadn't consolidated power yet, the KMT still wielded a lot of influence on the mainland including numerous gorilla activities. You should read the newspaper articles about China becoming "red", people where actually shocked the KMT lost because the communist defeated them so fast

Im sure you cant accept the idea the China didnt want the US at its doorsteps containing it like it already did.

You mean the Vietnamese, Indians, Burma, Afghanistan, Taiwan, SU, Mongolia containment?



Yes, China was very contained

Originally posted by chinawhite
One of the reasons why my father got those apartments so cheap because he was informed of the project before they got on the market.

Precisely, in the west we call it corruption. Also those apartments must have be damn cheap even very nice houses here are cheap by western standards.

BTW. Foreigners are taken out all the time, to try and cement a business relationship. It isn't jus CHinese, the foreigners are the real source of the money.
Also I find it interesting here that there are an awful lot of Taiwanese owned factories here, they tend to do business amongst themselves as they don't trust factories with mainland CHinese owners.

Well obviously

Despite the fact that the Cultural Revolution destroyed the lives of countless innocent people, it really didn't achieve its aims

How would you describe innocent?, people who once where landlords but now living like the rest of people or the officials who still thought old or talked about things against what everyone else thought. How about the thugs that terrorised the small communities that were put to death when the communist came to power. I have a story about my local area being victim to gangsters and later being rescued by the communist

LOL, many communities were terrorised by teh Communists and the Red Guards themsleves. It was a complete cluster#, anyone who knows anything about it knows that. I suggest you do some basic reading.

Here nice and smple :

library.thinkquest.org...

Originally posted by chinawhite
And the Reason they were bombing the other side of the Yalu,

The US never bombed the otherside of teh Yalu, amybe a few stray bombs. They took great pains to knock out the Yalu bridges suffereing heavy losses as they were not allowed to engage anything over the other side.
The US could have wiped out the MIG presence in Manhuria if they decided to turn their bombers north, they did not.
China interevened bcause it's puppet was getting its ass kicked adn the commnists were fearful of an American presence on their border. As it turns out tehy made a great strategic decision, NK has been used well by the Chinese. Lets hope they still have a strangle holf on their puppet state.

Originally posted by warset
immature? why do i even talk to ppl who like to conclude things based on their assumptions and imaginations?

How am I being imaginative?

Ya sure..

-china is a third world country with ppl having an average income of less than $1500 US dollar a year.
-so they can't afford food and are starving.
-due to the totally failure of their evil brain washing communists dictatorship, chinese ppl are hoping to have a movement to topple their government; hopefully the US/Japan/taiwan government will step in and help them to do so.
-chinese government today abuses ppl, and use them like slaves, and heavily pollutes the environment. the money they made from those slavery labours are being used for the government officials' personal perposes.
-major movements led by organizations such as FalunGong, or FreeTibet are leading chinese ppl away for their government, ppl see them as their saviours.

And yet chinese people continue to put up with it...

-based on the current scenerio, china will hopefully claps within the next few years.

You said it, not me.

herhaps if i talk like that you'd think i'm an "open minded" person eh? now whos the one being not open minded?

I would hope to think that you can think for yourself instead of regurgitating the fallacies that your government spouts.

yeh... Merrikans... what can i say about them.
Is this the new Merrikan Dream or what?

Is what "the new Merrikan dream"?

--------
who haven't seen anything yet?
herhaps you have heard the cersorship from some media, but i've seen the cersorship with my own eyes
infact the webs that got blocked are basically all anti-china related websites such as freetibet, Falungong, pro-taiwan independence etc. or websites that contain related info on those things

I posted a source which was a couple days old. Hu Jintao seems to be pretty unhappy with the current job that his government is doing in blocking the web from its vast growing internet users. I.E. him tightening the lid on what the chinese can see. The article was posted this January the 26th. Its fairly fresh news.

if they really want to limit ppls knowledge, why would they allow chinese televsion service to have CNN/Fox/BBC channel? why don't they censor ATS forum?

I dont know. possibly because the above mentioned media outlets are to busy paying attention to their own countrys news?

But explain to me this. Why does your president think there needs to be a tighter lid on the net in china (as he said Jan. 26, 2007?) Is what that tells me is he cant be to happy with the current job that his government is doing in filtering certain sites on the internet.

interesting eh? never realized you can watch CNN in china eh?

Interesting? No, not really, china always puts on a false show to appease the west. (Mainly the investors)

[edit on 063131p://1301pm by semperfoo]

[edit on 063131p://1501pm by semperfoo]

ROFL
hey buddy, you can't even follow my post...
i said it's a "merrikan dream" because that's what merrikans would like to dreamed china to be like....

and about that media thingy, i guess they've figured that the best way to counter organizations such as FalunGong is to isolate them rather than to oppress them. because the harder the oppress, the keeper you fall into their traps. the objective of those organizations to let you "oppress them", so they can create some kind of "human rights" news out of it, and make a big money from those news. but if you basically ignor them, and not talk about them, then their wouldn't be much news on that topic, and these organizations would gradually become useless, and eventually disappear. I guess this explains why they block FalunGong or FreeTibet's websites, so ppl don't talk about them any more.

speak of which, it is quite interesting how the newer chinese government reacts to organizations like FalunGong. Remember the incident when an EpochTimes(a leading FalunGong media) reporter shouted at Hu during his speech infront of white house? Traditionally, that would lead to an official strike from the chinese government along with more news on the oppression of FalunGong; however, the current government didn't respond to the incident at all, as if FalunGong has never existed. I guess that fits to their "isolation" scheme.

I used to go to EpochTimes' website (the leading FalunGong media) all the time, but i noticed that the number of stories about the oppression of FalunGong is decreasing, they began to talk about other stuff; the remaining FalunGong news stories tend to be those older ones.
so i guess that's a new strategy the chinese government came up to elimitate those organizations.

BTW, stop saying "ur president" when he isn't my president at all.

PS. the EpochTimes has launched an anit-chinese communists movement in late 2005, they claimed that china and their government will claps within a few years due to their numerous problems. So far, they've claimed that over 17000000 people have join their organiztion's movement and resigned from the communist party, and is continuous claiming that china will claps very soon. Epochtimes, and its related media group have being the leading source of china's humanright news for many years. international humanrights groups often cite the news story from this media group. however, from my experience, chinese society today is indeed extremely different from what the Epochtimes claims. I guess time will tell who the real liar is.

China takes the US out to dinner. But the US is the one paying chinas salary. Ya get where im going with that?

just a comparison you made
actually, the US is more like a rich guy, and china is like a chef. the guy hires the chef to took for him. in return, the chef gets his salary from the guy. but the guy don't want to see the chef make for money than he does.

[edit on 1/31/2007 by warset]

Originally posted by warset
ROFL
hey buddy, you can't even follow my post...
i said it's a "merrikan dream" because that's what merrikans would like to dreamed china to be like....

So your saying that everything I say (backed by sources and all) is just dreams the we americans and the west in general share alike?

I think its a damn shame. You do not see me jumping up and down with excitement about chinas human rights record do you?.

I guess time will tell who the real liar is.

Again why not let the ppl of china make up their own mind about what site is right and what site is wrong? at the same time promoting whats known as "free thinkers", a new concept for china?!

And before you say im a bigot or something in line with that. I think asian women are absolutely HOTT, especially here in miami florida!!!! One of my good friends happens to be an asian who has a chinese background as well.

Also, you labeled one source that speaks out against the chinese government. What do you say about Chinas movie censorship? In particular (one case of many) the movie called "The Departed" that was blocked because in the movie it mentions of a Chinese plan to buy military equipment?!. Thats just ridiculous. China is just trying to save face from its own ppl because china cant come up with anything on their own. They lack an imagination from years and years of being brainwashed. (being told by the government what to say, do, and feel)

www.nytimes.com...

The fact is china just cant ignore the rest of the world because it doesnt like what the world has to say about it. (true or not) Thats a very childish way to go about doing business. Especially for a civilization that has been around for 5,000 years! China is acting like a very primitive society in how it deals with certain events in the world today.

just a comparison you made
actually, the US is more like a rich guy, and china is like a chef. the guy hires the chef to took for him. in return, the chef gets his salary from the guy. but the guy don't want to see the chef make for money than he does.

WHOA EASY... Chinas economy depends mostly on the cheap labor of migrant workers. Making china depend to much on its exports. The US on the other hand is constantly making ground breaking technological discoverys. Which is what our economy is primarily based off of.(something we Americans take for granted) I would say china has a longgggggggggg ways to go before they start taking us out to dinner. if ever.

My comparison was just that. And in your comparison there are alot of "IF's" and "BUT'S".

Heres a ryhm for you.

"If, if's and buts were candy and nuts, we would all have a merry christmas."

WHOA EASY... Chinas economy depends mostly on the cheap labor of migrant workers. Making china depend to much on its exports. The US on the other hand is constantly making ground breaking technological discoverys. Which is what our economy is primarily based off of.

that's exactly what my comparison was,
and urs made no sense.

and that brainwash statement make no sense either, see how close minded the soviets were? and they made crazy techs just the same.

the fact china's indigenous tech isn't strong is because it has just started recently. before late 1990s, china basically made zero progress due to the "cultural revolution" thingy.
the cultural revolution made china's science/cultural/politics/economy etc either stopped to advance or went backward.

one example is that the Mig16 they got from USSR were used from the 1950s all the way to the 1990s.. what does that mean? china basically made zero progress(or negative progress) during that long period of time, where as the US made HUGE progress.

there is a graph of china's progress in terms of economy:
upload.wikimedia.org...

im sure if technology level can be made into some sort of graph, it will be similar to this one as well

and if you analyse the rate of change of the graph, youll realize how crazy it will become in the next 15 years.
just compare the year 2000 to the year 2005; see how much things have been changed in that short 5 years of time.

however, you can also call china a very poor country, if you look at china's GDP per capita. infact, ironically, china is just next to iraq (china: 110th, iraq: 111th, morocco: 109th, iran:91st)
in fact, iran is has a GDP per capita about 160% as that of china's

so is here lies a question: is iran economically much stronger than china?
or is iraq economically comparable to china?
If you are an average merrikan (or a member of the EpochTimes), you'll say "yes of course"!
but if you actually know what's going on, you'll say "no, that's a joke".

[edit on 1/31/2007 by warset]

Originally posted by warset
that's exactly what my comparison was,
and urs made no sense.

You must not have a sense of humor if you didnt get mine then...

and that brainwash statement make no sense either, see how close minded the soviets were? and they made crazy techs just the same.

Brainwash: to persuade completely, often through coercion; "The propaganda brainwashed many people"

sound familiar?

The soviets did. But then again the chinese are not the soviets. Eventually the soviets lost out because of their inability to adapt to change. Also America made far superior technology then the soviets. Where the soviets were all about massive armed forces, the US was all about a smaller, highly equipped, technologically sophisticated forces. This is one reason why the soviets collapsed. Because they couldnt keep up with americans small but technologically sophisticated forces. And dont forget that the soviets were already a powerful nation. Right after the world wars there were only two nations that stood neck an neck, that of course was the US and Russia. So they both were emerging powers right about the same time.

one example is that the Mig16 they got from USSR were used from the 1950s all the way to the 1990s.. what does that mean? china basically made zero progress(or negative progress) during that long period of time, where as the US made HUGE progress.

Your comparing apples to oranges. China is not the USSR. And in some cases the USSR wasnt a true superpower. Not like the US anyways.

When china finally does come up with a name brand appliance like say a sound system or a computer brand, it will face stiff competition from the japanese and american markets that are the cornerstone in todays technology markets.

there is a graph of china's progress in terms of economy:
upload.wikimedia.org...
and if you analyse the rate of change of the graph, youll realize how crazy it will become in the next 15 years.

Uh, yea.. About those economic figures... I wouldnt put so much confidence in them.
www.atimes.com...
www.clearharmony.net...
www.friendsoftibet.org...
simonworld.mu.nu...

China admits economic data 'unreliable'.
news.bbc.co.uk...

China plunges as bubble fear builds
thestandard.com.hk...

however, you can also call china a very poor country, if you look at china's GDP per capita. infact, ironically, china is just next to iraq

(china: 110th, iraq: 111th, morocco: 109th, iran:91st)
in fact, iran is has a GDP per capita about 160% as that of china's

Well the average Iranian is wealthier then the average chinese person. China has an advantage over Iran because of its population.

so is here lies a question: is iran economically much stronger than china?
or is iraq economically comparable to china?
If you are an average merrikan (or a member of the EpochTimes), you'll say "yes of course"!
but if you actually know what's going on, you'll say "no, that's a joke".

In what sense do you mean by "stronger economically"? I really think we americans and europeans would do just fine without the cheaply made toys in our happy meals. Which would mean less growth for china because it is a nation of cheap labor that EXPORTS cheap goods. China cant afford for that to happen right now. Now compare that to the Mideast Oil kingdoms and what they could do to an economy like chinas or americas by simply not saleing to us. We would have some problems. By that sense i would say they are economically stronger as they have a stronger economic will against us, Said another way. We americans can live without the crappy stuff that comes from china. however, I cant say the same without the mideast oil.



[edit on 093131p://0101pm by semperfoo]

[edit on 093131p://0401pm by semperfoo]

[edit on 093131p://1601pm by semperfoo]

[edit on 093131p://1901pm by semperfoo]

the whole reason why chinese labour is cheap is because the value of their RMB currency has being artifically adjusted by their government, to become much lower than that of the US dollar.

therefore, their income in RMB compare to US dollar is much lower, and this created the "cheap labor" phenomenon

if their RMB value is naturally adjusted, then their labour won't be so cheap at all.

the income level of chinese ppl in terms of RMB, or goods value isn't too bad. but the RMB value compared to the US dollar value is very low(artificially adjusted). therefore, if you measure chinese ppl's income directly in terms of US dollar, their income is extremely low, infact comparable to that of Iraq.
however, the actually goods value they can get in china is not so low.

for example, you can have a meal in china for 5 yuan RMB which is about 50 cents in the US currency. but it is basically impossible to buy a meal for 50 cents the in the US

another example, they can produce a mini car vacuum for 40 yuan RMB, which is about 5 US dollar. while, it's technically impossible to do that in the US.

this isn't because chinese ppl don't make money, but rather because the value of RMB is very low compared to the USD (about 9:1)

however, the actual value of RMB should be higher than that

this is why, if you measure their income in terms of the international currency ,the USD or Euro, chinese ppl's income are comparable to Iraqis
but if you compare chinese with iraqis in terms of standard of living, then chinese ppl are a lot higher.

[edit on 2/1/2007 by warset]

Originally posted by rogue1
Precisely, in the west we call it corruption. Also those apartments must have be damn cheap even very nice houses here are cheap by western standards.

There not exactly apartments, they are more like houses built on top of each other. Each one is a double story and is bigger than double story houses in Australia. They could be considered cheap but they were quite expensive for a house in china in a urban location. Generally, housing prices are extremely cheap for a common house but they dont make any money

It isn't jus CHinese, the foreigners are the real source of the money.

A Foreigner as in a non-asian or a foreigner as in non-PRC?

If its a non-asian then thats not true, if you look at figures for investment ifs actual chinese/hong kong people or "taiwanese" people putting the majority of the investments in apart from the big multi-nationals. Move away from the multi-nationals and the trail of money ends at that. Most money in china is money from its own pockets and from other asian investors. Most products produce actuall gets consumed domestically and the big multi-nationals export their products overseas.

Taiwanese business do business with mainland organisations, they obviously have to since all investment has to be a joint-ownership. In my local area these taiwanese are considered "Fujianese" since they are actually decended from the area they are investing

many communities were terrorised by teh Communists and the Red Guards themsleves. It was a complete cluster#

Cluster#?

Basic reading should mean reading material from BOTH sources instead of pointing towards a western site with opinions based on western views.

These people who supposedly "terrorised" these communities were the VAST majority and the people getting terrorised where former landowners and thugs who terrorised these people beforehand. Communism was universally accepted amongst the chinese communities simply because it appealed to them. Some people might have written books about their "struggle" but they were guilty of their crimes and justice was served to them on mass

Originally posted by rogue1
The US never bombed the otherside of teh Yalu, amybe a few stray bombs. The US could have wiped out the MIG presence in Manhuria if they decided to turn their bombers north, they did not.

Thats a oxymoron, you go to say that the US never bombed the otherside of the Yalu and then admit a few stray ones. Gez, makes sense

The US couldn't have wiped out the MIG presense, present some edvidence because you are making a assurd statement. If you consider the number of planes the US lost (1300) and the amount of MiG's lost (>390) and the fact that the chinese manchurian airforce was not fully commited to the battle meant that the US would have been driven back.

Not to mention that the Americans did not have to deal with AA guns in MiG alley

Originally posted by chinawhite
If its a non-asian then thats not true, if you look at figures for investment ifs actual chinese/hong kong people or "taiwanese" people putting the majority of the investments in apart from the big multi-nationals. Move away from the multi-nationals and the trail of money ends at that.

Precisely the big multinationals are outting teh majority of money into the CHinese economy, take them away and Chinas economy would implode.

Taiwanese business do business with mainland organisations, they obviously have to since all investment has to be a joint-ownership.

Nope no joint ownership here and none in any of the other Taiwanese factories I've been to.

Basic reading should mean reading material from BOTH sources instead of pointing towards a western site with opinions based on western views.

Just one of many. What would you suggest I erad mainland CHinese books and websites, they are heavily censored. Seriously, you believe what they say ? LOL.

The Cultural Revolution was hopeless in its aims and in its result. Mao couldn't even control it.

Originally posted by chinawhite
Thats a oxymoron, you go to say that the US never bombed the otherside of the Yalu and then admit a few stray ones. Gez, makes sense

i don't even admit that. Why don't you find an instance where the US bombed the other side of the Yalu ? You're the one making the allegations.
The US would hvae been well withn their rights to bomb anything n China and Manchuria if they chose to do so.

The US couldn't have wiped out the MIG presense, present some edvidence because you are making a assurd statement. If you consider the number of planes the US lost (1300) and the amount of MiG's lost (>390) and the fact that the chinese manchurian airforce was not fully commited to the battle meant that the US would have been driven back.

LOL, you are making absurd statements. The US lost less aircraft to air combat than the Chinese. In fact it was the 2 Russian Air Regiments which scored the majority of the kills against the US. The PLAAF was easy meat for the USAF. In fact many Sabre Pilots snuck across the Yalu and shot down many MIG-15's.
The USAF proved themselves suprior to the PLAAF, there is no doubt about that. We all know it was the SOviets who gave the USAF trouble not the PLAAF.
Of course the SOviets also created teh PLAAF from nothing.

If Manchuria wasn't asafe haven for teh PLAAF then the PLAAF would have been wiped out in MAnchuria. Their main tactics were to stay close to the border enage in a quick air ombat ( onlyif they were numerically superor ) lose a few planes then run away back over the border.

Not to mention that the Americans did not have to deal with AA guns in MiG alley

It's common knowledge that China has a weak military so there is no current threat there (except for nukes). China is going through a process of acquiring military equipment, mainly from Russia, ie submarines, planes and advanced technologies etc. They also have a very sophisticated network setup to steal American technologies eg cruise missile, aegis, reverse engineering of F-16 and nuclear technolgies.

In 30 years time China might be able to rival the US militarily and really upset world balance. But in my opinion military strength is practically irrelevant these days. China poses a much bigger threat economically and politically to the West.

Double post

[edit on 8-2-2007 by chinawhite]