China, it's military capabilities, and chinese nationalists

Originally posted by chinawhite
Doesn't that tell you that western media has exaggerated what the Chinese government has done?. If me and our other westerner in waiting Rogue1 post so regularly and the fact that ATS of all places isn't blocked in china mean that chinas sensors are about more relaxed than what you are led t believe

As much as I hate to admit it, in this respect Chinawhite is correct, teh internet has very limited censorship here either by choice or the fact that it is too hard.
The only sites which I have come across which are banned are Google Video nad Wikipedia.

OK, Chinawhite. I am checking out here. I will let you have the last word. Bye.

I still disagree with you, but when you refute my posts by saying. "HaHaHa, you edit your posts." Well, I am not sure what can be accomplished here.

So if you want, go ahead and say "hahaha I won." I really don't care.

[edit on 21-1-2007 by XBadger]

Originally posted by chinawhite
I'm anti American?.

Because i challenged your views I'm now Anti-American?. The most Anti-American thing i did was criticize Americas military budget

I said your anti american because of the comments you made without even understanding what I was initally tried to say. Those comments show your underlying views when you started making worn out left wing stereotypical attacks on the US. Remember the whole America is fat statement you made as a counter attack when I referred to democracy? When you felt like I was insulting China in all its greatness you resorted those pathetic commonly used tactics even though I never said I was trying to insult China.

Sorry you got caught, and you cant back out of it.

[edit on 21-1-2007 by pilotshinjiikaru]

Originally posted by chinawhite
I actually replied because of your generalization based on personal experience and your assumption about Chinese posters being nationalistic because they are supposedly in your face America

Did you not prove me right? By immediately jumping to personal attacks to questioning and then belittling my family and me. Your blatant anti americanism comes out obviously many times in this post. So like I wrote before, you have proved me right. You made yourself into the kind of people I wrote about by going into useless personal attacks and stereotypical worn out statements about the US foreign policy.

pilotshinjiikaru, in your previous posts, you mentioned that you have lived in China for 8 years and lived in U.S for more than 12 years. So I guess you left China in 1995 when you were only around 10 years old?

Things have been changed a lot in the past 12 years, especially when it happened in China. As an oversea Chinese left China only 2 years ago, I myself can see huge difference each time I came back to my hometown. Thought there are still huage amout of problems, no one can deny that infrastructure, life quality, and environment in China is getting better and better. On the other hand, more and more anti goverment or complaing threads about environment, corruption, democracy are posted in Chinese big Chinese forums and I don't think anyone of them get caught because of this.

How to define a "big" Chinese forum? In general, a forum has hundreds of thousands or millions of new posts everyday can be viewed as a big Chinese forum. For example,
bbs.sina.com.cn
bbs.163.com
bbs.qq.com
forum.xinhuanet.com
www.tiexue.com

From the discussions on these forums, I think Chinese people knows the outside world pretty well. It is a pity that most members here can't read chinese at all, so you won't be able to know what exactly Chinese think and what are China's strategies. All you know is what the west media and newspaper tell you. I am saying they are completely biased, but maybe they too focus on the bad things sometimes, which results in building the bias against China. To be honest, eventually this situation will be harmful to your country's decision.

I suggest you and everyone talked to some Chinese left China recently and see what are their opinions about current China. I am pretty sure 90% of them will have a positive attitude to China.

Perhaps it is also a good time for you to visit China again.
You will be surprised or even shocked by the archivement and changes that China has made during the past 12 years.

Originally posted by pilotshinjiikaru

Originally posted by chinawhite
I actually replied because of your generalization based on personal experience and your assumption about Chinese posters being nationalistic because they are supposedly in your face America

Did you not prove me right? By immediately jumping to personal attacks to questioning and then belittling my family and me. Your blatant anti americanism comes out obviously many times in this post. So like I wrote before, you have proved me right. You made yourself into the kind of people I wrote about by going into useless personal attacks and stereotypical worn out statements about the US foreign policy.

[edit on 22-1-2007 by google_abcd]

[edit on 22-1-2007 by google_abcd]

Originally posted by google_abcd
pilotshinjiikaru, in your previous posts, you mentioned that you have lived in China for 8 years and lived in U.S for more than 12 years. So I guess you left China in 1995 when you were only around 10 years old?

Things have been changed a lot in the past 12 years, especially when it happened in China. As an oversea Chinese left China only 2 years ago, I myself can see huge difference each time I came back to my hometown. Thought there are still huage amout of problems, no one can deny that infrastructure, life quality, and environment in China is getting better and better. On the other hand, more and more anti goverment or complaing threads about environment, corruption, democracy are posted in Chinese big Chinese forums and I don't think anyone of them get caught because of this.

How to define a "big" Chinese forum? In general, a forum has hundreds of thousands or millions of new posts everyday can be viewed as a big Chinese forum. For example,
bbs.sina.com.cn
bbs.163.com
bbs.qq.com
forum.xinhuanet.com
www.tiexue.com

From the discussions on these forums, I think Chinese people knows the outside world pretty well. It is a pity that most members here can't read chinese at all, so you won't be able to know what exactly Chinese think and what are China's strategies. All you know is what the west media and newspaper tell you. I am saying they are completely biased, but maybe they too focus on the bad things sometimes, which results in building the bias against China. To be honest, eventually this situation will be harmful to your country's decision.

I suggest you and everyone talked to some Chinese left China recently and see what are their opinions about current China. I am pretty sure 90% of them will have a positive attitude to China.

Perhaps it is also a good time for you to visit China again.
You will be surprised or even shocked by the archivement and changes that China has made during the past 12 years.

Originally posted by pilotshinjiikaru

Originally posted by chinawhite
I actually replied because of your generalization based on personal experience and your assumption about Chinese posters being nationalistic because they are supposedly in your face America

Did you not prove me right? By immediately jumping to personal attacks to questioning and then belittling my family and me. Your blatant anti americanism comes out obviously many times in this post. So like I wrote before, you have proved me right. You made yourself into the kind of people I wrote about by going into useless personal attacks and stereotypical worn out statements about the US foreign policy.

[edit on 22-1-2007 by google_abcd]

[edit on 22-1-2007 by google_abcd]

And this disputes what in my post? I was not saying China's some how inferior. I did not write a post disputing statistics. And I'm sure things have changed but Chinawhite's blind nationalism fueld attacks on me havent changed anything. Everything I said is opinion based, I wasnt attacking China. You and every other Chinese person that has posted on this thread loving China means loving the CCP. I dont, like I said my grandfather paid for believing in the CCP and Mao. I love China, I'm very proud of it but just because I write negitive aspects of society doesnt mean what I'm writing are wrong. My relatives and people of China tend to gloss over the negitive side of Chinese society as they cant do anything about it. But they can, they have just been raised into a sense that they cant push for change.

And I know western Media is biased, but only biased to an extent. Being biased is better than being told by the CCP what you can or cannot report. Anyone who reads Xinhua will laugh as you can see theres only negitive reports in a positive manner. And always harp on a chance to bash any western democracy. Minor crimes or incidents happen in the US will be headline news on Xinhua. Well if the West did the same thing then everyday they would be reporting how many miners died, how many peasents died from Cancer attritbuted to water pollution.

I'm not saying China hasnt made great achievements but the achievements of the Chinese people are not the achievements of the CCP. I only wrote this post really because the mind set of the Chinese people and thats something I dont need to be in China to know, I can call up my relatives anytime and they will say oh well the CCP is trying to do good. And then I will ask why the refuse any substantial political changes and they will say well there is nothing we can do about it so we accept it and live with it.

Over the course of this thread you have seen any criticism of China is usually viciously harped on by nationalists even though their legitimate. Chinawhite flamed me about statistics or facts or claims when in reality I was criticizing the CCP and I dont think theres any reasonable person in China who can disagree with my criticism of the CCP. They values loyalty and power to them above all else. Laws exist but if anything in anyway can question the power of the CCP it is immediately crushed.

I mean I dont deny or defend criticism of the US but atleast we can do so and many of us Americans accept them as constructive. But if I comment on China you saw what happens. And I think it's sad because those nationalists are so extreme because the CCP encouraged the population. If you went to school there you know what I am talking about. My parents still believed the US provoked the Korean war that China defeated the World (UN) in Korea to show the world the power and might of China. I only say this because I care about and love China. I am sicked by this sense of wealth above all else mentality. I'm sure there are people fighting for change in China but its not enough and most people are still ok with just focusing on financial wealth.

I say this because I feel the yearning of the Chinese people to seek respect from the West. I experienced this firsthand when I immigrated here. All this saber rattling, economic growth, political posturing is the Chinese people asking for recognition and respect in the world. Thats something I always wanted for and fought for. As a child I remember how americans viewed China as a poor third world country with a despotic government that massacres its own people. I remember being told GO BACK TO CHINA WE DONT WANT YOUR KIND HERE from other children. Or how the first words I spoke to and understood from my classmates in the US was HEY! DO YOU KNOW KUNG FU?!?! YOU KNOW ... LIKE JACKIE CHAN AND BRUCE LEE! I never said Chinese people shouldnt be proud but as long as we continue to gloss over our flaws the west will still see us as not as an equal but as a strange people that are incompatible. Because the west values things like democracy, human rights, and freedom. And as long as we let the CCP dictate things like that the West will never truely see us as a equal. They will still scoff at how poor our peasents are and how we dont care about the lives of our own people. We cant expect americans to see us as an equal if theres thousands of miners dying every year. Thats something unacceptable in the US. I know theres little people can do about it but they should still press for change and not just be complacent and accept the CCP and its wisdom.

i suggest you to go experience what china is like today, for yourself

china today is nothing like it was in 1995, things have changed so dramatically, that you can hardly recognize the same city where you had lived 8 years ago.

one fact speaks for all: china each year consumes the amount concrete for construction projects equivalent to the rest of the world combined

that's how fast things are changing there

compare the rate of changing in china to that of canada, canada is like a joke

the fact most ppl in the west think china as an under-developed country is that because their impression of china is still in the 90's, which is actually extremely different from what is today

I would describe china in the 90's as a rather close mined country with some influence left over from the former communist's era, the country at that time is rather poor and under-developed.

but that is no longer the case for today, and that why a lot of the american-chinese do not understand, because at the time they left china, china was not comparable with the US.
but as for today, 2007, china is actually comparable to the States in many ways(although still not competely).

[edit on 1/23/2007 by warset]

Originally posted by warset
i suggest you to experience china today, for yourself

china today is nothing like it was in 1995, things have changed so dramatically, that you can hardly recognize the same city where you had lived 8 years ago.

one fact tells all: china each year consumes the amount concrete for construction projects is equivalent to the rest of the world combined

that's how fast things are changing there

compare the rate of changing in china to that of canada, canada is like a joke

the fact most ppl in the west think china as an under-developed country is that because their impression of china is still in the 90's, which is actually extremely different from what is today.

Your right. The big cities are changing. Most of china doesnt feel the 'boom'. They feel the cause and effects from the boom though (pollution) And the 'quality' of those buildings are questionable. With china not much is put into 'qaulity' Its all about getting stuff done in the quickest time possible at the cheapest price. Chinas infrastructer is very weak.

Diseases, pollution, poverty..... You name it! All are alive and kicking in china on a MASSIVE scale. Pollution is currently raping that country of ever dwindleing resources. An estimated 70-85% of chinas rivers and lakes are deemed 'hazardous' to drink, and eat fish out of, thanks to the 'china boom'. China is getting rich at the expense of their environment. Not to mention there is an estimated 765,000,000 impoverished chinese who live off a buck to $3 a day to sometimes a week!.. Aids, sexually transmitted diseases and such are all happening in china on a grand scale.

And the 90s didnt just happen some 20-30 years ago. China has a MASSIVE population. That is what will drag china down.

And what about China’s funding gap for social security, medical care, pensions, etc. its governments debt?

China has many hurtles to surpass in the coming decades to become a developed nation. Nothing is written in stone just yet.







[edit on 063131p://3201pm by semperfoo]

Originally posted by pilotshinjiikaru
Hey semperfoo how bout THEM GATORS!!! I'm at UF. I use to live in Boca

HAHA im a U fan man. But congrats. Boca is nice. I used to live in Destin.

i agree with you on the pollution fact, and those other facts are somewhat true as well

but im quite sure the way you look at those things are only through the point of view of western propagandas

those are negative effects caused by pollution and dense population.

and the only way to solve those things are through reduction of pollution and population, those facts has very little to do with the country's actually developement, in fact, the more developement made by the country tend to worsen the pollution problem.

this is not some thing you can easily solved by making more developement; it's something the entire world faces and have to eventually find a solution over time. the US will eventually face the same problem if it continues to develope and increase population -- untill we humans gradually find a solution to this problem, it will keep on getting worse.

[edit on 1/23/2007 by warset]

Originally posted by warset
but im quite sure the way you look at those things are only through the point of view of western propagandas

Maybe so. Then again how do I know that the communist regime itself is a 'reliable' source to get information from?

like i said, i go there and experience it myself, i don't just listen to what media says

Originally posted by warset
like i said, i go there and experience it myself, i don't just listen to what media says

True. But you dont see all of china bub! And its true that most ppl dont. When you visit china your not going to the poor slums. Your going to the beautiful glistening cities that china has to offer (no matter how poorly contructed).

Chinas slave shops.
video.google.com...

And you ppl honestly cant drive for sh*t!
video.google.com...

And this... This is just rediculous...
video.google.com...



[edit on 063131p://5201pm by semperfoo]

Originally posted by warset
those are negative effects caused by pollution and dense population.
and the only way to solve those things are through reduction of pollution and population, those facts has very little to do with the country's actually developement, in fact, the more developement made by the country tend to worsen the pollution problem.

No your wrong. The more development made by the country the WORSE it actually gets. China suffers from industrial pollution. See manufactuers in china dont care about the environment. They get away with dumping stuff like "waste" in rivers and lakes. In china this happens on a grand scale. Also manufactuers in china burn stoves and furnaces with unrefined coal (much like the populous) and live in toxic pollutants that cause widespread respiratory problems. This also causes pollution on a massive scale. Also, chinese pouring sewage off into the rivers and lakes around china, and in some instances the ocean. All leave a negative impact on chinas population as well as chinas ecosystem.
www.sinodaily.com...

this is not some thing you can easily solved by making more developement; it's something the entire world faces and have to eventually find a solution over time. the US will eventually face the same problem if it continues to develope and increase population -- untill we humans gradually find a solution to this problem, it will keep on getting worse.

Lets get somthing straight here first. The above posts by you is more of your theory, then it is actual fact!

The US uses various methods and techniques to divert pollution by enforcing laws that work to clean up pollution where it starts. We try to outright prevent it all together. We do this by using state of the art technology that is cleaner and more effecient then what china uses, or doesnt use depending on how you look at it. Simply put, we here in the US have a cleaner manufactureing base then china does. One reason is because we are a developed nation, meaning we have the technological backing, whereas china is a 'developing' one and doesnt have the technological backing. With china its all about getting rich RIGHT NOW!. So they greedily sacrifice there evironment just to make a buck.

Right now Americas main pollution problem is with fossil fuels. All this could and someday will be prevented by switching to an alternative fuel source. Ironically, China is supposed to surpass the US as the worldst #1 emitter of fossil fuels.

The population woes wont just go away for china. China has a MASSIVE population and has had one for a while. Whereas the US is gradually, yet slowly building up its population base, Making the enviroment more suitable and mantainable. Said another way, we the US didnt just have 1.5 billion ppl fall in our lap at once!

America is doing it the way it should be done. We do this by suiting the slow but growing needs. And as time goes by, technology becomes more efficient. So, unlike the US, time is something china doesnt have a luxury of.






[edit on 093131p://4801pm by semperfoo]

Originally posted by warset
i suggest you to go experience what china is like today, for yourself

china today is nothing like it was in 1995, things have changed so dramatically, that you can hardly recognize the same city where you had lived 8 years ago.

one fact speaks for all: china each year consumes the amount concrete for construction projects equivalent to the rest of the world combined

that's how fast things are changing there

compare the rate of changing in china to that of canada, canada is like a joke

the fact most ppl in the west think china as an under-developed country is that because their impression of china is still in the 90's, which is actually extremely different from what is today

I would describe china in the 90's as a rather close mined country with some influence left over from the former communist's era, the country at that time is rather poor and under-developed.

but that is no longer the case for today, and that why a lot of the american-chinese do not understand, because at the time they left china, china was not comparable with the US.
but as for today, 2007, china is actually comparable to the States in many ways(although still not competely).

[edit on 1/23/2007 by warset]

Im sure China has changed but you cant tell me China now is 100% different. Chinas material gains have nothing to do with its political posture or much of what I said. In fact nationalism incubated by the government is worse than before.

Originally posted by warset
i agree with you on the pollution fact, and those other facts are somewhat true as well

but im quite sure the way you look at those things are only through the point of view of western propagandas

those are negative effects caused by pollution and dense population.

and the only way to solve those things are through reduction of pollution and population, those facts has very little to do with the country's actually developement, in fact, the more developement made by the country tend to worsen the pollution problem.

this is not some thing you can easily solved by making more developement; it's something the entire world faces and have to eventually find a solution over time. the US will eventually face the same problem if it continues to develope and increase population -- untill we humans gradually find a solution to this problem, it will keep on getting worse.

[edit on 1/23/2007 by warset]

First of all, you can say some parts of the western media has a bias but propaganda? You mean all western press are propaganda? Then there is no point in you participating in this discussion. On the principal grounds that you refuse to recognize free press doesnt = propaganda. View points that dont agree with CCP lines are not propaganda. I know the western media use to stereotype China alot. And our people, values, and culture are misunderstood by members of the western press but this doesnt mean everything that is said is biased or wrong.

In fact the simple fact that if you are, raised in China would put you at a disadvantage in his discussion as everything you are taught IS specifically propaganda. Like I mentioned before my parents still think China beat the world (UN) in Korea and that US invaded North Korea first and that it was going to invade China. So to say what we know is propaganda and what you know is right then you are categorically wrong and everything you say is false. But I'm sure thats not what you mean. You could say that China has press freedom but only to an extent and not in area of politics or anything that could disgrace China and "social harmony". Chinese press until the last 7 years was very much mostly propaganda is a well established and indisputable fact.

And I find your references and views on pollution as confusing. Its well established that pollution increases with development but only to a extent. Pollution in Japan has stayed relatively the same since the 1970s while it has increase output and efficiency by 300%. So to say that pollution is just a part of the game is a lie. Pollution will increase with greater development but the rate it has in China is no excuse. Simply no excuse, the CCP until recently supressed all media coverage of enviornmental damage from pollution. The CCP never really cared about the environmental damage from its growth on a national level. Plus corruption and the burden of human population in China made it worse. But the blame of Chinas population lies not with the people but with the CCP. It didnt care until the damage is on the brink of unrepairable. The damage done to China's enviroment is unexcusable. So dont shift blame saying its natural, its not. The world watched over China and warned it but the authorities only interpeted this as foreigners meddling in China's affairs. But Chinas pollution is so bad it has degraded the environments of Japan and South Korea. Acid rain from China has damaged forest in British Columbia and dust from Beijings dust storms now reach the american west coast. So there is no excuse for China's neglect of its environment, I remember as a child in Chengdu never knowing that white clouds existed. Since I was born I only saw brown clouds and when I came to the US I was amazed, I thought it was magic to see green everywhere, clear skies, grass everywhere, lack of dust, dirt, pollution, and garbage. While I know Chengdu isnt like that now and is alot cleaner its still bad compared to the West.

[edit on 24-1-2007 by pilotshinjiikaru]

Originally posted by pilotshinjiikaru
Im sure China has changed but you cant tell me China now is 100% different. Chinas material gains have nothing to do with its political posture or much of what I said. In fact nationalism incubated by the government is worse than before.

you have no idea how much politics have reformed since then eh??

simply because china did not chose to copy the US style political system does not mean that the chinese government has remained unchanged over the past years

the nationalim that chinese are having today is rather not much from the chinese government.
in the old day, the communist government used to propagate to create nationalism, but thats in the old days. As people gradually become more open minded, those old propaganda can nolonger deceive them, and infact, create distrust among the ppl and the government. and therefore, the government basically discontinued those propagandas.

today's nationalism for most chinese ppl is actually quite different from before, definatly not because of the communism propagandas.
their high nationalism today actually fundamentally comes from their hatred toward to the US, and Japan (seen as a puppet state of the US)
see how overjoyed many chinese ppl were when the sept. 11 incident has happened?
it's not that they support the terrorism or anything, infact, china has to deal with its own islamic terrorists problems.

the reason for some ppl overjoyed is, because that they saw, in this world, there are still ppl who are brave enough to challenge the US. there are still ppl who have the balls to say no to the US, and demand true freedom (this feeling is almost identical to what the americans felt when they saw that guy in Tianmen Square standing infront of tanks)

they hated the US for force ppl everywhere to think in the way the US demanded them to. they hated how the US portraite china as a evil brain-washing state inorder to contain china and preventing china from develop.
they see the only way to solve this problem is to make themselves strong, so they can have their own voice.
this is why china believes the idea of a "multi-polar" world. so ppl can have different ways of thinking, different point of view etc.
unlike the US's so called the "New World Order" which basically put the US at the top, and make it the god-like nation that every other nations have to listen to.

of couse developement should never be an excuse for pollution,
but this problem is fundamentally caused by china's dense population (which is a problem created from the former communists era), it is unlikely to be solved at any time sooner before the population problem gets solved.

PS. nop I'm raised in canada, for years, I had the same point of view as the western media, how freedom, democracy, human rights etc. work. It is untill recent years, when i started to study these things (ex. anthropology, culture, history, politics etc.), i began to realized that the world is indeed quite different from what the western media tells you, you can't really just assume what the world is like based on western media or chinese media, or the middle east media etc, but you have to actually experience it yourself. You have vastly underestimate the power of the US government and how extremely clever the US government is. Maybe the president at the moment might not be the startest guy on earth, but the US government as group, for many years, and parhaps even today have outsmarted everyone.
Oringinally, i felt too lazy to answer this thread, cuz i saw this as a western-propaganda minded thread. but since some ppl are actually interested in this topic, i've decided to give some insights.
and plz don't bring up the korean war example, i've explained that in the past on this formun like at least 10 times already, im too lazy to talk about it anymore; I've read enough info about what was going on, no need for ur lecture here. but thx anyways. and btw, the UN DID invade NK.

[edit on 1/24/2007 by warset]

Originally posted by warset
the nationalim that chinese are having today is rather not much from the chinese government.
in the old day, the communist government used to propagate to create nationalism, but thats in the old days. As people gradually become more open minded, those old propaganda can nolonger deceive them, and infact, create distrust among the ppl and the government. and therefore, the government basically discontinued those propagandas.

The governement does everything it can to ferment nationalism. This is mainly to keep peoples attention away from somestic problems. Mnay countries do this.

their high nationalism today actually fundamentally comes from their hatred toward to the US, and Japan (seen as a puppet state of the US)
see how overjoyed many chinese ppl were when the sept. 11 incident has happened?
it's not that they support the terrorism or anything, infact, china has to deal with its own islamic terrorists problems.

Hmm what a bizarre statement. I live in CHina and I hvae never come across anyone who was overjoyed at teh 911 attacks. Even though I hvae at times made negative statements about America, no one has ever said tehy were overjoyed at 911. I suggest you take a reality check.

the reason for some ppl overjoyed is, because that they saw, in this world, there are still ppl who are brave enough to challenge the US. there are still ppl who have the balls to say no to the US, and demand true freedom (this feeling is almost identical to what the americans felt when they saw that guy in Tianmen Square standing infront of tanks)

What complete bollocks, the 911 terrorists/mass murderers wre freedom fighters ? Idiot. I suppose by your logic then if Tibetans exploded a nuclear weapon in Shanghai they would be brave freedom fighters as well ? Corect because that is what you're sayig

hated how the US portraite china as a evil brain-washing state inorder to contain china and preventing china from develop.

LMAO, you are really getting divorced from reality. The good ole US of A is responsible for CHina's emergence as an economic powerhouse. Without the US and it's companies CHina would still be struggling today. That is an incredibly obvious fact. You statemnet is complete BS.

this is why china believes the idea of a "multi-polar" world. so ppl can have different ways of thinking, different point of view etc.

LOL, CHina only sees a ulti polar world whilst they are too weak to challnegethe US as world leader. Once they become more powerful we'll see how far this multi polar ideal goes.

unlike the US's so called the "New World Order" which basically put the US at the top, and make it the god-like nation that every other nations have to listen to.

It is the tyhe goal of many CHinese to see CHina take that position.

of couse developement should never be an excuse for pollution,
but this problem is fundamentally caused by china's dense population (which is a problem created from the former communists era), it is unlikely to be solved at any time sooner before the population problem gets solved.

The polution isprimairly caused by the governemtns policy of growth at any cost. As I've said before I live here, some days I can't weak outside because the air is so bad. This is because there is no EPA in China all a business has to do here is pay teh right governemtn offical a few bucks and they're right. Corrutiption is rampant here adn teh industrial pollution is insane.

you can't really just assume what the world is like based on western media or chinese media, or the middle east media etc, but you have to actually experience it yourself.

What have you actually experienced ?

and plz don't bring up the korean war example, i've explained that in the past on this formun like at least 10 times already, im too lazy to talk about it anymore; I've read enough info about what was going on, no need for ur lecture here. but thx anyways. and btw, the UN DID invade NK.

LOL usially a statement of someone who has been defeated mnay tiems. FOr the record the NK attacke the South, they opened the can of worms ( idiots :lol : ). The UN could od whatever tehy wanted after that. Simple facts.
Whose bogus propganda are you reading now ? Expericence things for yourself my arse lol.

Originally posted by rogue1

don't you see my i point?

the whole thing IS very stupid! therefore, there is no need to discuss this topic, cuz it will lead you to no where.

I suppose if some tibetans bombed that pretty tower in shanghai, some many americans, will be overjoyed too. perhaps you yourself will be laughing too?
this IS reality, i didn't make it up.

see how today's US/japan's condemnation toward china actually served as a tool to help bring nationalism among chinese people? communism BS can't bring nationalism any more, but those condemnations BS from freedom/human rights groups will.

i read chinese forums all the time, chinese ppl don't love communist governments, but they hate the US much more, and their government's action against the US/japan will make them to love their government.

this is almost exactly the same for the US government, american ppl absolutly LOVe their country when their government talks about condeming "evil regions" and fighting for "freedom and human rights", and standing in the "name of justice"

so the story is somewhat like this: every time when the US condems the chinese government, and the chinese government strikes back, the ppl in both country become patriotic about their own country. this help both governments to govern their country, the only problem is that both the americans and the chinese will hate eachother even more.

in the previous post, i didnt say that the those chinese ppl's opinions are correct, but it's infact the reality, and the american ppl have this kind of opinions too toward chinese ppl

reading from chinese forums, i often see those "usa vs china" type posts too, which are almost identical to where the discussions lead on ATS forum, except they are in the "chinese version", which the "protagonist" is now china and the "antagonist" is usa, but the story is basically the same.

and about the so called "multi-polar" thingy, the whole thing is somewhat BS too. if one day china in power, im sure, they'd make some sort of NWO type thingy too.

there really isn't a "whos right and whos wrong" conclusion, the ones who have more power and louder voice get to keep their title of "being the right one".

and for the chinese government today, their job is to make the country strong and have all those powers; they are not just talking big words; they are really doing it.
Deny the fact that china today is gaining power fast is just playing ignorant

PS. NK did invade SK first, but im sure if UN had stopped at the 38 boarder, then NK would not get those "additional" communists support.

[edit on 1/24/2007 by warset]