Saddam to Hang This Weekend?

cnn just said that bush was asleep when it happened.

Originally posted by khunmoon
.............
I doubt you have suffered any lacks or privations in your childhood, so you can save your sarcasm.

I was born and lived under a Communist regime for 8 years and saw what happens to people under such a regime, i was raised in a socialist/democratic country, Spain, until i was 17 years old and found out that "I wasn't good enough because i was foreign and couldn't get a degree there". I came to the states when I was 17 and all doors were opened to me. I have a degree in electronics engineering, and work for an international company based mainly in the U.S. This is way off topic but since you asked I had to respond. I wouldn't assume anything if i were you before you know the facts.

Yes, there are people who have suffered more than me, such as people who have been tortured and killed by Saddam's regime, but you are wrong in your European sarcastic assumption that "if someone posts in the U.S. or in defense of the U.S. they don't know what suffering is", much less when all you have gone through is "the threat of a nuclear war" which involved the whole world, and most of the world went through such a threat just like you did...

Anyways, my response to you was sarcastic because you obviously seem to think that what has happened in Guantanamo and what happened under Hitler's reign is similar according to you, but I wonder if you have ever really seen what happened to iraqi people under Saddam's regime..

But then again, you and some people like yourself want to claim "oh it is the evil United States who is doing all this"...

Saddam was the main force behind the separation and conflicts among the Iraqi people, and him and his regime had been torturing Iraqis for decades just for being from a different Muslim group.

Originally posted by khunmoon
I could start a thread about the legions of tyrants, dictators and despots who America has helped and supported into power, but not today Muaddib.

Don't even go there when european nations, and many of their people, have been naive enough to name dictators such as castro for the "nobel prize"...

Originally posted by khunmoon
Sometimes it is right to kill the king, something the American people may have to learn, now all values from Justice over Freedom to Democracy have been ridiculed and desecrated.

What in the world are you talking about?...

BTW, millions of Iraqis went to the streets of Baghdad to celebrate the fall of Saddam, millions of them went to vote when the so called "freedom fighters" attacked and killed Iraqi civilians for voting, and today there are millions of Iraqis celebrating the death of Saddam.

But I guess for someone like yourself that is no "justice" because you don't agree with it.....

[edit on 30-12-2006 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by Harassment101

Most countries share the same opinion: Most of the EU(Incld Blair),Russia,India and China.

The problem with the world is that too many people are waiting till it's safe to speak up and do something about anything. Eg. President Ford gave an interview that said he didn't think Iraq should be invaded and he questioned the motives for invasion.
Sometimes good men of conscience, good people need to speak up before it's too late, because after you just can't change things.

But good people have spoken:
I was watching an interview with Susan Sarandon on BBC yesterday and I was amazed at the amount of trauma she and her family have had to go through just because of her stance on the war et all; but she's stood strong and believe me, its because of people like her that America still deserves the respect of the rest of the world.

Some more (alternative) reports on the execution.

It is more than likely. All the truth in the world adds up to one big lie.

"It's a tragedic assault on truth", Ramsey Clark just commented the execution on BBC.

Anyone got a funny taste in their mouth?


[edit to correct Clark quote]

[edit on 30-12-2006 by khunmoon]

Mauddib, Thanks for sharing a bit of your story. Makes me better understand your stance. Though you never can make me agree, I respect it, believe me.

Don't know if it'll broaden your understanding, telling you I was brought up the first 5 or 6 of my years without daily having dairy (or much meat), that a lot of kids like me grew up having serious deficiency diseases - because of shortage. That we couldn't buy a record, 45 rpm vinyl singles, before 1959. That Germany was nothing but a heap of rubble...

I understand your appriciation of the American system. Up until lately it has been shangrila to me too. Undisputed.

I appriciate a world of American culture - but not every people do that. And I think that should be respected.

One thing I've always fought though, is American hegamony and the greed that follows it.

If you can accept that, we can discuss.

I find it surprisingly strange and at the same time funny that meanwhile some "europeans and some other people form western countries" claim Saddam's sentence was just the will of the U.S., that it was a sham, etc, etc...that millions of Iraqis from around the world and including in Iraq are celebrating the death of Saddam....

I have heard some people make mention of "American arrogance", but the arrogance of some Europeans, and some people from other western nations, who want to claim "it was illegal, this is not going to bring justice etc etc" is far greater than anything they claim Americans are...

The majority of Iraqis 60-65 % are Shiites, while 32-35 % are Sunnis, while a 3% are Christians and from other religions.... Iraq is another example of how the minority was ruling over the majority with an iron grip, with torture and murdering hundreds of thousands, yet you have some people around here, and elsewhere, apparently claiming that the Iraqis do not want Saddam dead when he was opressing most of the population of Iraq....

If anything is a sham is what some people are tying to claim that this sentence is the choice of the U.S. and not of the Iraqi people.... Shame on you for making such ludricous claims.....

Celebratory gunfire rang out elsewhere in Baghdad, and the people in Sadr City, the capital's Shiite slum, celebrated in the streets, calling out "Where are you Saddam? We want to fight you."

Breathing heavily as he ran along the streets, 35-year-old Abu Sinan said, "This is an unprecedented feeling of happiness...nothing matches it, no festival nor marriage nor birth matches it. The verdict says Saddam must pay the price for murdering tens of thousands of Iraqis."

www.msnbc.msn.com...

The death of Saddam is welcomed and a celebration by most Iraqis in Iraq, and those living around the world, yet some people want to claim this is not true and it is only the will of the U.S.

[edit on 30-12-2006 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by Muaddib

I have heard some people make mention of "American arrogance", but the arrogance of some Europeans, and some people from other western nations, who want to claim "it was illegal, this is not going to bring justice etc etc" is far greater than anything they claim Americans are...
[edit on 30-12-2006 by Muaddib]

Unfortunately many of the 'enlightened' Europeans are really the most close-minded type of people. Not that Americans aren't...but we don't profess to be open minded. We profess to be the beacon of freedom.

Originally posted by khunmoon
.................
One thing I've always fought though, is American hegamony and the greed that follows it.

If you can accept that, we can discuss.

I can agree that not everyone sees the U.S. in the same manner, but making claims that "this is not what the Iraqis want" when the numbers and facts show quite the contrary is not going to help you or anyone else who makes such a claim.

Saddam had a majority of Iraqis ruled with an iron grip, and it has been the choice of most Iraqis to see Saddam face the death penalty, and he has paid for the crimes he committed.

Trying to turn this into another "let's bash and blame the U.S. thread" when the fact is that most Iraqis did want to see Saddam dead, and it is only people like yourself who don't agree with this sentence, is not helping your argument in the least.

[edit on 30-12-2006 by Muaddib]

Muaddib,

Let me just say one thing; If all the people in the world who were responsible for ordering the deaths of people of the same magnitude Saddam had, were executed today;
We would be living in a world of total disarray; ALL major powers would be leaderless,and loads of former heads of states of the same countries would be at the gallows too.
Nobody said Saddam was an angel; no dictator ever is; obviously no dictator wants any opposition of any sorts; Saddam was willing to go the extents that would ensure that there would be no dissent from within. And while he was incontrol; there never was any dissent..his eventual downfall came because he out thought himself and invaded Kuwait. If that had never happened; He and Iraq would be key players in all major issues in the middle east; all this genocide and all would be swept under the rug(as it has for so many others today). Saddam's dethroning and eventual execution has brought Iraq to its state today: with over 50 daying every single day; thats 350 a week;1400 a month; and nearly 150,000 a year. Engaging Saddam through more pressured diplomatic means on various issues; WMDs,human rights etc would have avoided all this.
The mass murder exponentially greater than what Saddam committed in the past is ensuing and only because he was dethroned and executed. There's no way around that.
Those Iraqis who are happy that he is dead today are only those who have personal grudges against him. I wager most are living in safe havens outdie or within Iraq. Others (the majority on the ground in Iraq) simply know of one thing;
Iraq was safer w/o the Americans and with Saddam. Irrefutable.

Originally posted by RetinoidReceptor

Unfortunately many of the 'enlightened' Europeans are really the most close-minded type of people. Not that Americans aren't...but we don't profess to be open minded. We profess to be the beacon of freedom.

But i wonder why is it if "European nations are a beacon of freedom" that most Muslim people in European countries have been protesting for years about the "European system".

You don't even see that level of protest in the U.S.

so, is Europe really a "beacon of freedom"? I kind of doubt it.

Originally posted by Muaddib

so, is Europe really a "beacon of freedom"? I kind of doubt it.

No and the US really isn't either. Unfortunately we still have fast food and WalMart and MTV. YEAH

Honestly though...Europeans are very racist in many parts. I mean, you do know what happens when American black players go and play soccer and other sports over there...

Or them outlawing head scarves. In the US, we at least do not worry about such things. We focus more on legislation...oh nevermind our legislators never work.

Originally posted by Daedalus3
.............
Saddam's dethroning and eventual execution has brought Iraq to its state today: with over 50 daying every single day; thats 350 a week;1400 a month; and nearly 150,000 a year. Engaging Saddam through more pressured diplomatic means on various issues; WMDs,human rights etc would have avoided all this.
..............
The mass murder exponentially greater than what Saddam committed in the past is ensuing and only because he was dethroned and executed. There's no way around that.

Under "diplomatic pressures" and meanwhile some nations such as Russia, China, France and Germany were getting rich from the OFF sanctions, which later on became a scandal, more than 200 Iraqi children under the age of 5 years old died every day. That amounts to 5,000 children under the age of 5 died in Iraq while using "diplomatic pressure". In total over 500,000 children, under the age of 5, died "using other diplomatic means which all of the world agreed with"....meanwhile some nations were getting richer and Saddam was avoiding the sanctions and using the money which was meant to be used for the Iraqis to make himself richer and to once again restart his wmd programs.... and there are still people that wanted more "diplomatic pressure which equals to sanctions"?.....

Oh, and that's not counting the people murdered by Saddam.

Originally posted by Daedalus3
Others (the majority on the ground in Iraq) simply know of one thing;
Iraq was safer w/o the Americans and with Saddam. Irrefutable.

How is that "irrefutable" when the majority of iraqis were ruled with an iron grip under Saddam's reign?... It is only in your mind that your claim is "irrefutable". I am pretty sure you saw the videos of all the Iraqis who went to the streets to celebrate the downfall of Saddam, and those people are a majority. The insurgents, which are in part the people who were in power, Sunnis, under Saddam's regime, is a minority.

For the majority of Iraqis it would be safer now in Iraq than when Saddam was in power, and BTW the majority of people living in Iraq do not live in Baghdad, as some people apparently think. Baghdad has about 5 million people or so, while there are 25-26 million Iraqis. There are more Iraqis in the north and southern regions of Iraq than in Baghdad, yet you don't see what happens in those regions on the "liberal media"....



[edit on 30-12-2006 by Muaddib]

Thank you for providing some perspective and truth to the fray Muaddib. Its refreshing to get a viewpoint such as yours and I have given you one of my "way above" votes for this month.


Long live the Fighters!

Actually there are...

Baghdad

or Bagdad (both: băg´dăd, bägdäd´) , city (1987 pop. 3,841,268),

education.yahoo.com...

Almost 4 million people in Baghdad.... Yet have you heard/read things like...

A water project has been accomplished in the Nafar town of Diwaniya at a cost of 629 million Iraqi dinars and with a capacity of one million gallons per hour.
The head of information in Iraq's reconstruction and development office in the province said that this project would satisfy the needs of the town and two villages with 5,000 residents.
................
The U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID) is working to improve water distribution in Kirkuk.

In early June, a USAID partner completed the rehabilitation of a water distribution system in one district of Kirkuk governorate. Before the USAID-supported intervention, the 25,000 district residents relied on an outdated system that supplied water only five hours per day through pipes made of materials such as asbestos and ductile.

In addition, a lack of maintenance had led to extensive corrosion that resulted in significant leakage and contamination. Dust and soil particles were easily visible from household taps.
...........
The Basrah/Umm Qasr Water Supply refurbishment will provide cleaner water for the 2.5 million residents of Basrah and Thi Qar, according to the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers (USACE).
.................
The U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID) is training 36 water pump caretakers throughout south-central Iraq to improve care of local water pumps.
.........
This month, 1,500,000 residents in Abu Skheer and Basrah, Basrah Province and Mamoudiya, Baghdad Province, received a reliable water supply with the installation of 16 km of water distribution mainline and repairs to approximately 800 leaks and breaks in the main water distribution line.
.........
According to the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers (USACE), two million Iraqi citizens in Basra and the surrounding area will have a constant and reliable source of water when the Basra Sweetwater Canal (SWC) system upgrade is complete.

www.portaliraq.com...

and the list is extensive, if you go to that link you will find a lot more of what is happening elsewhere in Iraq, but do you hear that in the "liberal news"?....

Sunni Iraqis, the minority which ruled Iraq under Saddam, live in a triangle between Baghdad, Mosul and the Syrian border, where you hear most of the problems are occurring in Iraq, meanwhile the rest of Iraq is under relative peace, after Saddam was ousted.

In Kurdistan alone, northern Iraq, there are 5.5 million Iraqis, more people than In Baghdad, and remember in Baghdad over 60% of the population are Shiites, the groups that Saddam was oppresing, torturing and murdering for decades.

Yet, why is it that you don't hear or read what is happening in those regions where the rest of the 20 million Iraqis live?....

Originally posted by SwatMedic
Thank you for providing some perspective and truth to the fray Muaddib. Its refreshing to get a viewpoint such as yours and I have given you one of my "way above" votes for this month.


Long live the Fighters!

Thank you for your vote.

It is a shame that so many around here don't want to see the truth of what is happening in Iraq, but many people are just too concerned with "blaming everything and anything on the U.S." to see what is atually happening.

Yes, there are many problems in Iraq, but it is a minority of people, mainly those who ruled the majority under Saddam's reign and foreign fighters brought in by Al Qaeda that are causing these problems. It is not the coalition or the U.S. that has caused the problems in Iraq.

[edit on 30-12-2006 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by Muaddib
Trying to turn this into another "let's bash and blame the U.S. thread" when the fact is that most Iraqis did want to see Saddam dead, and it is only people like yourself who don't agree with this sentence, is not helping your argument in the least.

Well, a more than clear majority of Americans would like to see George Bush some place else than the White House, so what the majority would like cannot be used as a measure of Justice. Never.

The trial is the benchmark of Justice, and to claim it to be fair in the case of Saddam, well, it takes some retarded mental abilities, I would say.

If the mob were to give the verdicts - and execute them - very soon most of us would be dead. Maybe you have the same view as one of the judges of his trial expressed.
He said: "You don't need a trial, you need a hanging!"

A man with such views cannot be a judge at all. But it's probably the biggest problem, getting Iraq running, the lack of qualified people to do it. Those who knew the job, the bathists, have been ousted or killed. The people who rule are exile Iraqis, often with dual US/Iraqi citizenship. They have been out of the country for 20 years or more. They might have the schooling, but not the experience and probably not much idea of what's really goes on in their country.

I don't disagree with much of what'd been said here.

Yes, Saddam was bad, to his people to his country. But never the less he created the only Middle East country with 100% literacy and a free over all healthcare, something not even the US can claim to have achieved for its population.

Yes, Saddam killed his own people without trial, but I dare the allegation that this illegal US orchestrated war have killed more people than Saddam ever did. But it is not the point of this thread.

The point here is Justice, a fair trial, not to condemn anyone before a verdict is delivered. A justice system lines out the degree of civilization of any given society. The outline this court has given don't ring good for the standards of any society. In my own biased words, the court was a disgrace to anyone in favour of justice.

And maybe they are not that biased after all. Most experts and scholars on law and justice seems to be of the same opinion. Right now BBC runs a mini interview with Ramsey Clark. They air it about every hour, catch it if you can. When it goes on print I'll post it.

For now I have some comments from legal observers on the case.

Originally posted by RetinoidReceptor
Unfortunately many of the 'enlightened' Europeans are really the most close-minded type of people. Not that Americans aren't...but we don't profess to be open minded. We profess to be the beacon of freedom.

You really hit the nail there, as I presume with "close-minded" you mean timid, and not narrow-minded.

Yes, Europeans know if they want to be too free, they'll be cut down. History has tought us. A lesson the Americans so far never had.
-----

P.S. BBC just showed the hanging, well they "spared" us for the final moment when he drops. All I can say, it wasn't a coward going to his death they showed.

For Muaddib: I just saw your new posts. Except for the one about the wonders of the engineer corps (off topic) - most of the roads in Europe was build by the nazis, you think we love nazies because of that? - I'm gonna respond on the about the sanctions. Give me an hour.


[edit on 30-12-2006 by khunmoon]

Saddam's death was a choice "which most of the Iraqi people agreed with", whether some "westerners and some others" want to agree with it or not....

Originally posted by khunmoon
Well, a more than clear majority of Americans would like to see George Bush some place else than the White House, so what the majority would like cannot be used as a measure of Justice. Never.

Yeah, that's right, I keep hearing this when polls are done to about 2,000 people in mostly liberal cities.... I wonder why...

Originally posted by khunmoon
The trial is the benchmark of Justice, and to claim it to be fair in the case of Saddam, well, it takes some retarded mental abilities, I would say.

It takes a lot more "retarded mental abilities" to ask for more "fairness" in the trial of a person who murdered probably over 400,000 adult Iraqis, and was the facilitator for the death of 500,000 children under the age of 5, most of which would have been saved if Saddam had used the OFF program for what it was supposed to be for...to help and feed his own people. Instead he decided to fill his own pockets and help countries such as Russia, China, France and Germany...all which have been found to have benefited from the OFF scandal...





[edit on 30-12-2006 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by Muaddib
It takes a lot more "retarded mental abilities" to ask for more "fairness" in the trial of a person who murdered probably over 400,000 adult Iraqis, and was the facilitator for the death of 500,000 children under the age of 5, most of which would have been saved if Saddam had used the OFF program for what it was supposed to be for...to help and feed his own people. Instead he decided to fill his own pockets and help countries such as Russia, China, France and Germany...all which have been found to have benefited from the OFF scandal...

You should ask for fairness in any trial. The word in that context is "scrutiny" and no matter how many you 'think' he murdered, the conditions of a court should be the same whether it's a stollen car or mass murder it is dealing with. A juristical process is to establish facts that can prove guilt or innocence, connections to circumstancies or other perpetrators. This so-called "trial" offered an emminent opportunity to excactly find out who supported him, with whom he did deals and the nature of them.

If you ask me, this farce was purposely conducted the way it was, getting him nailed on 148 people (who had tried to kill him), and it never had the intention to get to the more serious accusations, his killing of Kurds with poison gas. If it had, he might have told about his suppliers and technical supporters. Wouldn't be any good.

So because he was convicted of the murder of 148, we assume he also have done all the other things. Nobody need proves of course, but there will never be any ruling on it. We'll have to rely on what we've been told by the press, survivers and opponent government agencies. What a chance lost for unraveling history, politics and big business. Gone for ever, to much relief for some.

Do I have to tell you, it was on purpose the trial into his alleged crimes never ventured further than to a village 25 years ago, who tried to kill him - because any mediocre judge could get him hanged on that.

Not trying to trivalize the incident, but wouldn't it had been more convincing if a guilt connection had been established to his poisoning of Kurds or anyother of the numerous "delicate" stories in his Chamber Macabre. Maybe it would had taken some better qualified judges and a more sturdy court. But that it wouldn't had come convinient for certain people is obvious, because some of them hold important positions in business and administration today.

Don't you see, a one-time-chance to reveal truth lost forever?

So we have to believe the government versions, the ones to be handed down into history. Of course some won't believe them, and without any established and proven facts, they are free to add further to the myth. Like any governments are. Which bring me to the core of your quote, "the facilitator for the death of 500,000 children".

Now, I'm not sure what you mean by "facilitator", but I assume it implies some kind of guilt. In other words, I guess you say Saddam was responsible for the death of a half million children during the sanctions. If I'm right, you can't be more wrong.

Let take snip.

Lesley Stahl on U.S. sanctions against Iraq: We have heard that a half million children have died. I mean, that's more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?

Secretary of State Madeleine Albright: I think this is a very hard choice, but the price--we think the price is worth it.

--60 Minutes (5/12/96)

I don't know were you got the idea from... your government (ie Fox)? But you can't blame Saddam for that. You can blame him for invading Kuwait, thus causing the sanctions, but not for the effects of them. As some people here take your words at face value, I have to say it loud: IT IS NOT TRUE.

The sanctions impossed by the Bush41 administration in colaboration with UN, was a siege trying to kill the people off the land. A true crime against humanity. Simple stuff, for sanitation, education and healthcare, such as chlorine, pencils and any kind of pharmaceutical was banned, because george41 didn't have the guts to go to Baghdad and finish the job. At that time, before any sanctions it was already too hot what documents in Baghdad potentially could reveal. Therefore, this time, they bombed the Ministery of Interior in the first strike. After what the sanctions developed into, it was heavyly needed, you know cover up your tracks, rule number one for criminals.

The last word to Albright, the angel of death, who to the facts stated above replied:

"We Think the Price Is Worth It"

Then-Secretary of State Madeleine Albright's quote, calmly asserting that U.S. policy objectives were worth the sacrifice of half a million Arab children, has been much quoted in the Arabic press. It's also been cited in the United States in alternative commentary on the September 11 attacks (e.g., Alexander Cockburn, New York Press, 9/26/01).

Last I have to point out, that not all the deaths can be connected to the sanctions. The biggest single factor is DU, Depleted Uranium, the most diabolic, fiendish substance ever let lose by man. You know about it. How it vapourishes by impact into particles so small they through lungtissues can enter direct into the bloodstream. How it has a half time of millions and millions of years and never can be cleaned up from the enviroment. That is without comparision the most grave crime against humanity ever done. It was tested out in the first Gulf war.

Oh yes, I forget to tell, American weapon labs developed them, giving a helping hand to the nuclear power industry, who can't recycle the stuff into any grade of fuel. So they dispose it to bomb manufactoring, where its qualities as one of the most dense materials known is welcomed in the fabrication of spearheads.

Originally posted by khunmoon
The trial is the benchmark of Justice, and to claim it to be fair in the case of Saddam, well, it takes some retarded mental abilities, I would say.

The trial was held under the framework of the Iraqi constitution and legal system. You may not agree with it, but the Iraqis do not need your approval.

If the mob were to give the verdicts - and execute them - very soon most of us would be dead. Maybe you have the same view as one of the judges of his trial expressed.
He said: "You don't need a trial, you need a hanging!"

But the mob did not deliver the verdicts. And maybe you have the same view as Judge Abdullah al-Amiri, who was replaced for reasons which including his statement to Saddam that "you were not a dictator."

How can you justify having a man with such sympathies sit in control of that trial? Judges are not supposed to make their sentiments public, esp. while in trial.

Yes, Saddam was bad, to his people to his country. But never the less he created the only Middle East country with 100% literacy and a free over all healthcare, something not even the US can claim to have achieved for its population.

The same fallacious reasoning is used to justify Hezbollah's atrocities in Lebanon.

Yes, Saddam killed his own people without trial, but I dare the allegation that this illegal US orchestrated war have killed more people than Saddam ever did. But it is not the point of this thread.

The numbers do not support your allegation. Regardless, the US lanced a boil of sectarian violence that Saddam created. It is still supporating. But the US did not create the boil; Saddam did.

The point here is Justice, a fair trial, not to condemn anyone before a verdict is delivered. A justice system lines out the degree of civilization of any given society. The outline this court has given don't ring good for the standards of any society. In my own biased words, the court was a disgrace to anyone in favour of justice.

What exactly do you disagree with? The swiftness with which the sentence was carried out? The fact that the judge who was allowing Saddam to berate witnesses in the courtroom has been replaced?

And maybe they are not that biased after all. Most experts and scholars on law and justice seems to be of the same opinion. Right now BBC runs a mini interview with Ramsey Clark. They air it about every hour, catch it if you can. When it goes on print I'll post it.

The Ramsey Clark, former US Atty General, who was part of Saddam's defense team? The same Ramsey Clark who defended Milosevic, Coard, and Radovan Karadzic? Even his supporters admit he is off his rocker.