Is this what the war on terror means ?

Originally posted by Jakomo

"they pleaded guilty thats enough for me "

Yes, they pled guilty and accepted 10 YEAR SENTENCES.

I am 100% sure the government would have threatened them with the death penalty or at LEAST life in prison.

If you could be shipped of to Gitmo or tried in secret and you were offered the chance to only spend 10 years in jail instead of the rest of your life, what would you do?

Even if they were innocent, it's them against the entire legal power of the US government (which has been changing laws as it suits them since 9-11).

I hope that all of you who say that they have no problem with this are never "suspected" of terrorism and have to make this decision for yourself.

Free democratic countries don't send people to prison for thinking bad things.

Exactly. Anyone who's been charged with a criminal offense, or has been around the legal system, knows how they work. I had a DUI years ago, and they offered me the same thing. Either plead guilty to DUI (even though I only blew a .07) or risk spending a few months in jail if they didn't see things my way. Of course, not having unlimited attorney finances and time to serve a jail sentence, I was forced to take the plea. It happens all the time. If they do that sort of thing for a measley first offense DUI, what the hell do you think they'll do on a more serious charge? Most people haven't had to deal with the system, so they really don't have a clue how it works. I'd really like to know exactly what they pled guilty to.

[Edited on 12-2-2003 by Satyr]

Do you think there is a "Free" country? You think you are more free in Canada or any European country?

Right! Well, I am not a American with this viewpoint. I am just privilaged to live in the most free society, but I have lived in many other countries. Now I agree that the US schooling tends to study themselves as opposed to other nations so this gives them an aspect of world ignorance...but the freedoms they enjoy here are greater than any other country.

How about a basic freedom of speech? You think Canada has that? If so, then research the CRTC if that is what you believe.

Anyway, yes...freedom has a price. I guess that price is that I don't get to fly around the world and hangout with known killers and terrorists. Sure, the goverment leaned on them. They do that every chance they get. You think any other country in the world does not?

And no, I don't worry that I would be suspected. I am a foreigner here and I have no worries at all.

So is this anger at the goverment or the legal system? Is there a single legal system in the world that is perfect?

I just don't understand the blind attacking of the USA over this stuff. Its the legal, and the government, and the policies and the people and their attitude and this and that and the other thing...

Well, the US understands that you don't have to agree with them. That is FREEDOM. Why does England and France and others think the US needs to believe the same as they do, or there is hate or worse? And yes, the US has bailed every one of those countries out at one time or another and has gotten nothing but grief.

So now, 9/11 happens. Now a line is drawn in the sand.

A guy runs down the street, he carries a machine gun...he kills your friends and family and many others...oh foul you cry! Why did you let him? He violated the law! He is evil!

That same guy runs down the street, but the police shoot him first and he dies with gun in arms...oh foul you cry! Why did you shoot him! Why did you to that? You are not sure he was harmless! You are evil!

What a joke.

I'm not attacking America at all. I'm merely pointing out that it doesn't follow the rules that made America what it once was. Those days are long gone. Between the drug war and terrorism, our freedom is quickly becoming a charade. Why don't people see how important this is? It's a give and take. You can give up your freedom for safety, but I'd rather die in an unsafe, but free country, than give up mine. If you stay in your house all the time, you're alot safer than if you leave, but is that freedom? As soon as you step out your front door, you're in danger of many things. Precautionary measures can't be taken for all possibilities. It's impossible! So, you can live in a constant state of paranoia and expect people to break all the rules for your protection, or you can go on with your life and use your own instincts to navigate into your future. I definitely prefer taking my chances, as long as my freedom isn't a charade. I'm far less afraid of any criminals or terrorists than I am that our gov't is being allowed to violate the very rules that made this country great.

[Edited on 12-2-2003 by Satyr]

Satyr: I would agree with you if these guys hadn't went to Afghanistan and met with Bin Laden. The mere act of knowingly being involved with the terrorist and then trying to hide it by saying they were in Pakistan makes all six of them suspect. They made the choice to go see what Alqaida was all about and even though they didn't stay that doesn't mean they weren't a sleeper cell waiting for their chance to kill americans. Maybe that was their cover story. Either way we had no alternative but to lock them up.

Did you watch the Frontline video? We did have a choice! Why in the hell didn't the FBI just keep an eye on them? Wouldn't that be the smartest thing to do? Isn't that what they're paid to do? It's not as if it's tough to notice that someone is receiving strange packages from Afghanistan, or strange phone calls, or buying suspicious things. The FBI has been given the power to tap phones, and do almost anything they want, just for scenarios like this. Those guys wouldn't have a chance at hiding a thing! They don't charge drug dealers or any other criminals without evidence. They shouldn't charge anyone. They should've done their job, staked out their places and watched until there was actually some evidence. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I could've sworn that's the way they're supposed to handle situations such as these. How do you know that I haven't been to an Al Qaeda training camp? I might be in a sleeper cell. The gov't might consider me a threat just because I don't agree with them. Should I be imprisoned? Quit making excuses for a blatant abuse of power.

[Edited on 12-2-2003 by Satyr]

They don't need evidence to lock up suspected terrorist. That's the world we are living in. The FBI, hell, the whole american government watched them, and they made a judgement call. If you are going to hang out with terrorist then you have pay the price. That is why they are behind bars. They went to Afghanistan. They started training with the terrorist. You can't be locked up for thought but you can be locked up for being in leauge with the terrorist, and there was just no way to know.

They had already lied about being in Afghanistan. Who is to say they were telling the truth about not being a sleeper cell. These folk sit around for years until their name is called. They brought them in for questioning, and made an offer. They took it. End of story. I believe justice was done. Going to train with terrorist is a crime.

Ok, so you wait and watch! What's so damn difficult about that? That's what they do!!! If you notice them buying bomb parts, or weapons, then the red flag goes up. Until then, they're only suspects.

They aren't suspects when they cop a plea. They're convicts.

I guarantee they could make you take a plea. You just don't get it. Pleas are forced upon people by threat of a worser charge. What harm would there be in watching and waiting until there's enough evidence for a real solid conviction? It would be obvious to any observer with access to the resources they've been granted, if they are indeed terrorists. If this is the new country, one that bases convictions upon hunches, I don't want to live here. This is the very moral fiber of our country that's being compensated. Paranoid control freaks are the mortal enemies of your liberty.

[Edited on 12-2-2003 by Satyr]

LOL! Yeah, wait and watch. Apply that to my "Man with the gun" scenario. He runs down the street, machine gun loaded...oh but wait and watch. Wait, he shoots someone in the head...ok, now get him.

You critique and then live under the umbrella provided?
Get out then. See how you like "freedom" elsewhere. Anywhere...just try.

As for watching them? You don't think people watched those 9/11 boys take flight lessons? Somebody knew. Yes. Concerned? A bit. By the time the box cutters came out and hundreds of innocents died...it was too late.

You say don't give up your freedom and you are more scared of the goverment than criminals and terrorists? I tell you what you try and negotiate with either and see who you get farther with. LMAO!

Like 2 kids fighting. One hits the other...whaaa, not fair not fair. War is not about fairness. They have no rules. Fly a plane into a building of civilians. Bomb buildings. Suicide attacks and bombs. Attack from hiding. Snipers. Rockets. Secret camps.

When we do that...oh, we are breaking morals. Not fair. Not fair. Oh the horror.




[Edited on 2-12-2003 by Secado]

It was their choice. If I were innocent I wouldn't take a plea. I don't care what they threw at me, you have to be willing to fight back, and they weren't because they were guilty. Obviously, you have more faith in them than they had in themselves.

My liberty is not in jepordy because six men are locked up for meeting with Bin Laden and training with the Alqaeda. I don't think they were treated unfairly. I watched the same speical you did. They had a chance to make their case, and chose to take a plea. They had a choice and that's the system. That's how our liberty functions when you are accused of a crime. You make it seem as though they had no choice...they should've never went to Afghanistan. That's their choice right there...they made the wrong one.

We won't agree, but I respect your opinion. I just believe that waiting could be the difference between life and death. I don't want my government to wait. I want them to lock folk up that train with terrorist, bottom line.

Saphronia: " They aren't suspects when they cop a plea. They're convicts "

So explain how people are found to be innocent after years in prison, after they've confessed. It's called a false confession, something done under duress.

If you had law enforcement screaming that they were gonna string you up or lock you away forever unless you accepted the plea RIGHT NOW, you'd probably like to think you'd stand strong. Unfortunately fear makes people make bad decisions.

"They don't need evidence to lock up suspected terrorist."

That ain't democracy at all, and that is NOT what the United States was founded on. ESPECIALLY not what made the US justice system one of the fairest in the world.

"If you are going to hang out with terrorist then you have pay the price."

That's called guilt by association, and it's again NOT AMERICAN. Or legal, or moral.

"They made the choice to go see what Alqaida was all about and even though they didn't stay that doesn't mean they weren't a sleeper cell waiting for their chance to kill americans. Maybe that was their cover story."

Maybe maybe maybe. Lock them up for 10 years to be safe. If it ever happens to you, don't bitch and moan, it's "the new way of things". The terribly unjust and unfair new way of things.

I am not blindly attacking the US, I am attacking the "new" rules in the war on Terror.

And my eyes are WIDE open.

Satyr makes excellent points, too.

Secado: "Well, the US understands that you don't have to agree with them. That is FREEDOM."

Secado, FREEDOM is not for the government to exercise, it is for the PEOPLE. The government is NOT free, they are accountable more than anyone for what they do. That doesn't seem too complicated.

Governments that are totally unaccountable for their actions are dictatorships and fascist regimes.


And this is not about a guy running down the street with a machine gun, this is about a guy who BUYS a handgun and is then sent to jail because of what he MIGHT do with that weapon.


jakomo

Fair enough...

"And this is not about a guy running down the street with a machine gun, this is about a guy who BUYS a handgun and is then sent to jail because of what he MIGHT do with that weapon."

So, let them buy guns. Let them carry box knives on planes, let them take flying lessons, send money to finance operations, set up sleeper cells, heck...even let them build bombs. That seems to be your point...so let them. You really think that is a better way?

I understand the point. And actually, I did mistake freedom. Nobody is truly free. Anyone who is free has someone to come take it away. I prefer our system to the terrorist system.

I would rather not live with people who kill women for going to school. There is no perfect system but, it is better than what you seem to lead to. All out wild west where the goverment can do nothing and everyone in the world carries guns?

Like it was pointed out, they had a chance to defend and state their case. They chose not to. What was the threat...harsher penalty if found guilty? If they were so innocent then so what? Maybe too much time in the training camp made them forget the freedom to have a trial and be proven guilty.



Hey, I get the points being made, really.

Originally posted by Satyr
Ok, so you wait and watch! What's so damn difficult about that? That's what they do!!! If you notice them buying bomb parts, or weapons, then the red flag goes up. Until then, they're only suspects.

Yup, wait for them to buy bomb parts.

While you are waiting for UPS to show up their door, they're off to catch a plane. Or something else. Like highjack a local fuel truck. Or any number of things.

Gee, if it were only as easy as waiting for the UPS truck to arrive.

Life must be so nice in Theory Land.

Originally posted by Saphronia
It was their choice. If I were innocent I wouldn't take a plea. I don't care what they threw at me, you have to be willing to fight back, and they weren't because they were guilty.

If they have a hard on for you, you'll go to jail then. You have no idea how the system really works, obviously. Don't feel bad, though. Most people don't. Why? Because the closest thing they've seen to the system in action is People's Court.

My liberty is not in jepordy because six men are locked up for meeting with Bin Laden and training with the Alqaeda.

No, it's not. It's in jeopardy because you refuse to see the danger in letting these things happen. Unfortunately, if you're not wealthy, you can't afford a good attorney for very long. And if you're unemployed, they'll give you a POS public defender who could care less whether you go to jail or not.

We won't agree, but I respect your opinion. I just believe that waiting could be the difference between life and death. I don't want my government to wait. I want them to lock folk up that train with terrorist,
bottom line.

Sure, and waiting to find out if your neighbor is a murderer is the same thing. You could just convict anyone who you suspect might not be right in the head. Fortunately, we have investigators to distinguish between those who are a threat, and those who are just different. No one is a murderer or terrorist, until they commit an act of murder or terrorism. Convictions have always been, and must be, based upon solid evidence. Arguably, Jihad is part of their religion. I'm sure there are a lot of Muslims in America rethinking their stance.

[Edited on 12-2-2003 by Satyr]

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne

Originally posted by Satyr
Ok, so you wait and watch! What's so damn difficult about that? That's what they do!!! If you notice them buying bomb parts, or weapons, then the red flag goes up. Until then, they're only suspects.

Yup, wait for them to buy bomb parts.

While you are waiting for UPS to show up their door, they're off to catch a plane. Or something else. Like highjack a local fuel truck. Or any number of things.

Gee, if it were only as easy as waiting for the UPS truck to arrive.

Life must be so nice in Theory Land.

Man, knowing what they knew, do you seriously think they could even take one step out of the house without the FBI or CIA knowing? That's ridiculous!

1) They went there before 9/11
2) There was (and is presently) no law against going to Afghanistan

"It's like the movie "Minority Report,' " Cassel said. "The idea is, "Let's go out and arrest people before they actually commit a crime, or even think of a crime.' "

It's the Red Scare all over again.

[Edited on 12-2-2003 by Satyr]

Man, knowing what they knew, do you seriously think they could even take one step out of the house without the FBI or CIA knowing? That's ridiculous!

1) They went there before 9/11
2) There was (and is presently) no law against going to Afghanistan

"It's like the movie "Minority Report,' " Cassel said. "The idea is, "Let's go out and arrest people before they actually commit a crime, or even think of a crime.' "

It's the Red Scare all over again.

Ok, going to Afganistan not illegal...you are correct.
Training, aiding, and working with known terrorists illegal? Yes.


I am sorry your experience with the justice system was so bad. I am sorry that you committed a crime (DWI was it?) and felt so pressured to accept a plea bargain.

Now you are the champion for liberty and justice I guess. Too bad you could just, oh...I don't know...NOT commit the crime of drinking and driving. Oh, but it was ONLY a small amount of drinking then. Why should they punish you right? I mean you didn't INTEND to kill anyone, so why would they be so inconvenient and make a law that might protect someone from you. Gosh how mean of them. Trampling your liberty like that.

Now I see your point.

Okay, first I have to say this will never happen to me beacause I would never go to Afghanistan and train with terrorist. I'm not in danger of the FBI investigating me for terrorist connections because I don't deal with terrorist. I love my country and I would never sit face to face with a man bent on destroying my way of life. What the hell? This is no slippery slope. They trained with terrorist came home and lied about what they were doing. Looks like a duck, walks like a duck, but no it's a cow ??? Sounds like a sleeper cell to me. Most people are convicted on a maybe but these guys actually admit to going to Afghanistan and training with terrorist and having a sit down with Bin Laden himself.

Then, Satyr, I know about the justice system and the fact is that these men had very good lawyers. Lawyers that believe like you do. They didn't get raped by the system because the were poor. They lived in a perfectly middle class neighborhood. Truly, money gets you off and it can get you ten years for going to Afghanistan and training with terrorist. Yes...I'ma keep saying it because that's all that matters.

Satyr, don't try to get smart-butt with the people around here. Saphronia just might surprise you with her knowledge of "the man", and I assure you, my knowledge of how things work is not from People's Court.

While you are correct in that if they want you in jail, or worse, it can happen.
You are incorrect in that they have the ability to pay attention to a fraction of what they need to pay attention to, much less to those of us who are not a threat.

We are at war, not of our choosing, but there, nevertheless. Even before we we engaged in war, martial law, or more precisely, martial rule, was in effect, and IAW that, the pretense of judicial court was just that - a pretense. The fact that a handful of morons went to Terror bootcamp is enough to land them in jail, and out of position to harm our people.

We here are not strangers to the system, do not try and talk down to us.