Uk and Guns

I noticed alot of US Topics seem too mention a need for survival if somthing happens are guns, but the problem here in UK, Guns are illegal, you can be charged and jailed for ages for stockpiling them or owning them without a hard too get licence.

I was just wondering, How us UK'ers will cope if somthing like a Zombie Outbreak occurs(doubt it but just theory), will a gunless country be good, as robbers can't use guns too steal your stuff etc.. and riots and chaos won't contain guns firing everywhere...?

But you Americans seem too be lucky if guns are legal over there, as they are totally illegal here, im just pointing out, also it stops alot gun crime too i guees so why illegal here.

Its all about government control. You are much easier to control if you cant shoot back. From what ive heard they said it was all done in the name of safety, however I don't live there and as of yet haven't had the pleasure of visiting there. So I don't know what really happened or how long the law has been active. It is in our constitution to protect our right to keep and bear arms. an armed country is far less likely to be taken over. Our founding fathers knew this hence why they protected our right. Funny part is our Founding fathers were from the U.K. on the other hand tho you are less likely to get shot at when walking in a bad neighborhood. There are positives and negatives about both laws but as a tax paying citizen I want the right to decide for myself, not told what to do. I don't pay taxes to be told what to baleav in I pay taxes to be protected from with out.

True, Gun Crime is much higher in the United States of America, but then it can be argued that it is due too it is much more densly populated and bigger!

I dont think we have to worry about zombies, unless that word is a variable for an enemy. We may have to worry about restoring civil order if have the problenms france had though. Also, mohammed isnt too willing to run around the US with a bomb strapped to him with heavily armed civilians, not too mention our military and police forces.

[edit on 16-12-2006 by XphilesPhan]

This is why guns were banned in the UK to the extent that they are..

Hungerford Massacre

It was a bloody awful event that actually shook the whole nation and I for one have no qualms whatsover about the action taken because of it.

Only the socialist Brits would think one deranged man goes nuts, so we're going to take away everyone's right to economically defend themselves. I was living in the UK when the Hungerford incident occurred and the British population bent over for the gun grabbers. Since then hand gun violence has risen 500%. So much for making your country safer from hand guns. When arms are outlawed, only the outlaws will have arms. What are you guys going to do when a maniac drives a lorry through a crowd of children ? Outlaw motor vehicles?

[edit on 16-12-2006 by crgintx]

Alright, the issue is people in rather gunless ways defending themselves in the face of Situation X, not politics.

The good news: Since 90% of everyone else is in the same straights as you are, you don't have to worry about anyone having an unreasonable, huge edge on you if it comes to blows.

The bad news: If it comes to blows - you or them - then it's going to be bloody ugly and brutal.

It takes a lot more work, and a lot more time to learn, but archery would certainly be a viable option. Sharp things can help. If all else fails, shovels can make mean weapons, and so can wood axes. If Situation X happens in teh UK, though, your best bet is to get the hell out of there as soon as possible.

DE

The reason the UK cannot buy hand held pistols (apart from air powered) becasue of the Dunblaine Masacre! I can't remember when exactly and why the guy did it, but he shot up a school in Scotland full of little Children. However you are still able to buy shotguns and rifles! Harder to conceal but alot more devestating in the effect. Its not difficult to be arms in the UK, the only difference between UK and USA is 1, u cant buy a guy from Wal-Mart; 2, The UK government cant do weapons checks on people that dont know are buying guns and 3, If a weapon is involved in a crime it can't be traced back to the owner without the assistance of ferensics.

Well farmers have shotguns all the time, the trouble is, In England you hardly ever even see real guns on sale if you can even buy them, I have been too lot shops, and have never seen a real gun really, except Hunting Rifles.

A few weeks ago i went with a relative to a gun club, My first time in the uk shooting proper guns.

From what i saw and shot that day, The legal weapons in the uk are just as capable at doing another dunblane as what were about at the time it happened.

If its self defence youre after, a vintage pistolette will certainly do the job

To clarify points of "no guns" in the UK, I've used up to 7.62mm rifles since I was 14.

www.met.police.uk...
This is the SO-19 section of the met force (snodnol police force.)

Pistols are restricted to .22 milimetre and I dont think they are semi automatic. Even still a .22 is still deady enough, but then again who needs a .22 when you have a good old shotgun.

The pistols i was fireing were loaded with black powder, Wadding and lead balls.

One, A kentucky pistol to match the rifle i fired, sort of highwayman style! see through the cloud of smoke to see if you got the target.

I dont know what size the shot was but was bigger than 22.

after firing these theyre much more fun to shoot than the semi auto's i fired on holiday abroad.



[edit on 19-12-2006 by trueskeptic]

I posted this some time ago on BTS, I'm sure that most on the information here is correct, but if you needed to know more you are probably best off contacting a local gunsmith or shooting club for the latest updates to the law.

Despite what the UK government and all of the PC brigade would like you to think, UK citizens can still own rifles and shotguns, you can even still own a hand gun - so long as the overall length is 24ins or more.

To do this you would need to become a member of a shooting club, you need to be a full member, usually for at least six months before you can apply for a section one fire-arms certificate, the police will check that you have been a member of that club.
The application is a form that you get from the police station, you need to fill it out as specified and then you need to get two character references, and a couple of signed photos. You also need to list all of the fire-arms that you wish to own and the amount of ammo that you want to store, so you have to think about what you are likely to want/afford in the next five years (before you need to re-new your licence); if you don’t buy the guns on your list the next time you need to re-new the police may remove them from your ticket – if you want to buy something not on your list you have to have what’s called a ‘variation’ – and this cost more money. You also need to buy and install a Police/Home Office approved gun safe in your home before you are approved by the police (so that they can check it as part of your application - you still may not be approved even if you have gone to the expense of getting one installed...)

You must also visit and shoot at your chosen club o a regular basis.

Stuff you can own on a FAC:
.22 rim fire rifle, bolt action or semi-auto, you can even have box mag’s (25round plus)
Lever action carbines - .38, .357magnum, .44magnum most have 9 shot tube mags
Double barrel shotguns (over-under or side-by-side)
You can also get a semi-auto shot gun on a section one ticket, SPAS-12 or other shot guns with magazine capacity around 10 shots (but you may need to also join a club that supports 'practical shot-gun', bit like combat against mock targets)

Some clubs can also apply for something called section 7 (I think) this allows the club to own a proper hand gun that was made before 1915 (so the Colt M1911 .45 is allowed - IF they can find one to buy)

Pistols – must be over 24ins in total length, so they either have a massive barrel or say a 12ins barrel with a wire frame stock at the rear to make up the length. (you may have to also become a member of another club that Specialises in pistol's before you are allowed to own one)

To get most of the interesting stuff you may need to belong to several clubs all at the same time, and that's not cheap.

Best thing to do is to look in your telephone directory and look for a local shooting club, you can usually go and visit and talk to the guys (and gals!) there, most clubs will welcome you and there should be plenty of information, much more than I can give you here.

Good luck

Karl

[edit on 19-12-2006 by karlwb]

Hello
Galiega asked in his original post about the guns here in the UK.
Unfortunatly when something is "outlawed" is dosent mean that it isnt available for a price and from "someone".

This IMO will be the biggest problem when Sit X happens in the UK, because without the correct things in place people will be robbed of goods that they have aquired.
If for argument sake you wake up in the morning and overnight Sit X has happened, believe me there will be guns, there will be gangs of idiots running round looting, there will be mass chaos.

CrginTX was right ..
when he said that the UK is not a safer place without guns.
The amount of violence in this country in the last decade has been unprecedented, the type of violence seen in the UK at present is horrific (im not saying that the type has not happened before) but it seems to be happening more often.

DeusEX was also right in what he said.

When law breaks down..then all hell breaks lose, no-one will give a t"""s about what you are legally entitled to carry in order to defend you and Yours, and what you are not.

I think if i had to put hand on heart and decide if or not we should be able carry/own guns in the UK as prior the dumblane and hungerford tragic events, then i have got to be 100% honest and say that i WOULD have in my home a gun, to defend me and my family.
I am not supid, i know what is available to people "out there" and for the right money, people who would not think twice about shooting you for something..all this would be in the event of Sit X happening.

Everyone goes on about the gun crime in America and "we have statistics to back it up"...rubbish!!
You only have to look at the size of America and the fact the the UK fits into each of the states at least once!!! to realise that the stats dont really give a true picture.

Take one state in America, then take the Whole of the UK, over the course of a year, gun related crime would not be that much different,
and remeber that the Uk is supposed to be gun free(outlawed)!!!!
Dont get me wrong im not advocating everyone in the UK go out and buy illegal guns, but just look at the bigger picture.

Making things illegal DOES NOT mean they will not be available, only a few months ago here in the UK in kent the police seized "one of the biggest gun hauls in the UK" EVER!!!
A legal gun dealer that was making ,converting and selling "illegal" weapons.

IMO years ago we may have had that "sense of security" of not having so many guns on the streets , but i think them dyas are long gone..sorry to say but its the truth.

Originally posted by spymaster
CrginTX was right ..
when he said that the UK is not a safer place without guns.
The amount of violence in this country in the last decade has been unprecedented, the type of violence seen in the UK at present is horrific (im not saying that the type has not happened before) but it seems to be happening more often.

With respect Crgin, thats a bit overdramtic. I can walk down the street and not get mugged, not get shot or beaten up. Its not as the papers make it out ot be.

You only have to look at the size of America and the fact the the UK fits into each of the states at least once!!! to realise that the stats dont really give a true picture.

Then mabye we can compare just one US city say like new york to one of london and compare gun crime?

Take one state in America, then take the Whole of the UK, over the course of a year, gun related crime would not be that much different,
and remeber that the Uk is supposed to be gun free(outlawed)!!!!

The UK is over 875 miles long, you could fit 2 US states in our land mass.
And I also doubt our gun crime would not measure up to the same size as say washignton or any of the major industrial states.

IMO years ago we may have had that "sense of security" of not having so many guns on the streets , but i think them dyas are long gone..sorry to say but its the truth.

You know for someone worried about gun crime you sure are missinformed about what weapons ARE availible to protect your family.
How about a cross bow? Legal from 17 up. Bow and arrow, probably the same!

Devilwasp, sorry mate, but i dont know if your answere was directed at me or at Crgintxto whom is was agreeing with?
I suspect that it was directed to me and the points i had raised.

I too can walk relativly safely around without being mugged, but that was not what i was saying, i was pointing out that crime/violence had become More "violent" in recent years in the UK.

Im 41yrs old (i would say street-wise) and have seen violence in the UK become more "violent" in recent years, ive lived in the smae area all my life and have seen this place go downhill.

You say that our landmass is 875 miles long..and...
The whole Uk has a total area including water of 244,820 sq Km
The United states has a total of 9,631,420 sq Km, you can see what im trying to say here?

Pehaps i may have it wrong but you can fit the Uk into every single USA state at least once, which is why i said "take one state, then the whole of the UK to get a better picture, regarding crime stats, and those commited with the use of guns.

And i am not worried about gun crime "per-say" i was pointing out facts.
Those being:
People will get hold of guns whether they are legal or not.
Gun crime has risen in the UK in the last few years.
There are more guns on the streets in the UK than ever before, and the people that have them are criminals who wish to use them for criminal intent.
(other than registered gun owners)

Originally posted by spymaster
Devilwasp, sorry mate, but i dont know if your answere was directed at me or at Crgintxto whom is was agreeing with?
I suspect that it was directed to me and the points i had raised.

Well I did qoute you mate...

I too can walk relativly safely around without being mugged, but that was not what i was saying, i was pointing out that crime/violence had become More "violent" in recent years in the UK.

Yes and in prevois decades this has been the norm to rise and fall.

Im 41yrs old (i would say street-wise) and have seen violence in the UK become more "violent" in recent years, ive lived in the smae area all my life and have seen this place go downhill.

Thats probably just your area, my towns actually improvde in some areas and went down in others but thats called current events.

You say that our landmass is 875 miles long..and...
The whole Uk has a total area including water of 244,820 sq Km
The United states has a total of 9,631,420 sq Km, you can see what im trying to say here?

Yeah and trying to compare us to a single state is like comparing scotland to the EU.

Pehaps i may have it wrong but you can fit the Uk into every single USA state at least once, which is why i said "take one state, then the whole of the UK to get a better picture, regarding crime stats, and those commited with the use of guns.

And i am not worried about gun crime "per-say" i was pointing out facts.
Those being:
People will get hold of guns whether they are legal or not.
Gun crime has risen in the UK in the last few years.
There are more guns on the streets in the UK than ever before, and the people that have them are criminals who wish to use them for criminal intent.
(other than registered gun owners)

A) A US state is not the same as the united kingdom, the UK is 4 countries, a state isnt even a country.
B) the recent influx of crime is thanks to unstrict EU border controls allowing every joe blog to buy a gun in eastern europe and then walk through a ferry terminal in cali or newcastle still carrying his or her gun. (Believe me when I say that customs leaves thier posts at 12 because I've seen crew members walk off with more than thier legal share of booze.
Adding guns will not solve the problem, it will only add water to the oil fire. Allow guns yes, keep them in secure buildings with armed guards, YES. Allow home ownership, dangerous.

Devilwasp
Well i never wanted to get into a political debate with anyone over this, i guess its just opinions that neither of us can agree on ...or can we?

Your quote A) i couldnt agree more with you
But what i was trying to explain is that when people say " oh i dont want guns here, you only have to look at America to see what trouble that brings" was the fact that when we see these crime stats, it is normal for these to be generalized on the USA as a whole and they compare that with the stats from the Uk,i was trying to point out that to compare these type of statistics was a complete farse due to the size difference in both countries.

Your quote B) i couldnt agree more with you

I recently changed my avatar due to some feeling it was too right wing, couldnt be further from the truth, although to people who dont know me , my veiws, to some may have seemd right wing, but they were and still are views from someone who is a nationalist (and in my book thats far from right wing), someone who feels for his country and can see the certain things IMO the Eu are not a good thing for the UK.

C&E at airports and ferry terminals well thats just laughable, i agree with you there mate!
I know for a fact that at certain times you can fly into a major airport in the UK (not naming it for obvious reasons) but there will be NO C&E there at all.....and this airport has long haul international flights arriving?
Thats my political rant over with

You are correct in saying that in "certain" places crimes have decreased, perhaps im generalizing too much on the UK as a whole , as i live in London, i feel that crime and gun crime in particular has risen to an alltime high, perhaps thats how i should have worded it, in my original post.

Originally posted by Galiega
I was just wondering, How us UK'ers will cope if somthing like a Zombie Outbreak occurs(doubt it but just theory), will a gunless country be good, as robbers can't use guns too steal your stuff etc.. and riots and chaos won't contain guns firing everywhere...?

The problem I see with countries that have strict firearms laws is that most of their people are lulled into a false sense of security. Sure, in the here and now you are relatively safe from an assault with a firearm. What happens though when the SHTF and armed bands of people from other countries come for you? Axes and flashlights aren't going to do jack against firearms! I know if I was part of a roving band of crazies I would target the countries with few firearms

Getting back to the topic though...

In countries such as yours, it would be essential to know how to hunt, forage and blend in with your environment. Though many of you may be without firearms, there is more than one way to skin a cat. Buy a bow, crossbow, blow-gun or anything else that can take down small game.

Here's an interesting little statistic: the average lifespan in the UK is 70.6 years old and in the US is 69.3 year old. So you guys get to suffer as geezers a whole 8.4 months longer than us Americans with our 200 million+guns and lack of national health care. The number 1 killer(non-disease) in the US is auto accidents. Over 3 times as many folks in the US are killed by accident annually than all violent crimes combined. Don't you just love statistics.
On a more serious note, infectious disease is still killing more people in both countries than all bullets, knives and other weapons combined and by a factor of at least 2 and is rising again after falling for about a century. It's far more important to keep your immune system healthy than anything else. Reality! What a cold splash in the face!