Survival Rifle

Why rifle for survival? I guess you think you need it for hunting games once you are out of civilizations?

Most likely you will be running for your life with a handful of your valuables. Who has time to carry a rifle or shotgun with two hands when you are running for your life away from dangers? Even with a sling, the rifle will shake and rattle as you run, after 5 miles of running, you will loose the rifle or shotgun and just leave it.

To carry shotgun 12gauge or .308 ammo in large MOBILE quantity is not practical. And many of you talking a if there are plenty of ammo on the streets or in the forest abandoned cabin for you to pillage? A box of 100 shotgun shells will fill up your backback with no room for food or other basic life supporting necessities.

Please, your carry ammo is what you should count on, not the invisible stock house filled with the correct caliber for your rifle.

Best choice is a handgun. Slip it into your jacket or backpack and you are good to go. As for caliber: 9mm. Big enough to kill a grown man with a decently placed shot, small enough to carry 200 rounds easy just in your waistbag.

XD-9, Glock 19, P30 all are great choices, easy no tool take down and cleaning.

reply to post by docklands


Unless you're an champion silhouette shooter with pistol, the guy with the rifle will sit 300 yards away from and pick off any pistol packing survivalist with ease. If you have a .357 magnum or larger caliber revolver with at least a 6 inch barrel you might be able to hit a man sized target that is sitting still at distances past 150 yards but that still puts you at tremendous disadvantage over even small caliber centerfire rifles like the .22 Hornet or 5.56 NATO.

The .22 Hornet is the smallest commercial centerfire rifle cartridge common in the US. It has twice the muzzle energy of the hottest 9mm pistol cartridges. Greater muzzle energy means greater effective range. Even when fired from a carbine rifle, the standard 9mm cartridge would only be able to take white-tail deer at maybe 100 yards and a good sized pig at maybe 50 with a perfect shot. 9mm auto pistols aren't known for accuracy past 25 yards either. IMHO a 9mm pistol is inferior to even a .22 LR rimfire rifle as choice for a survival firearm.

100 rounds of .30 M1 carbine or 5.56 NATO/.223 Winchester aren't much heavier than 100 rounds of 9mm ammo. A decent bolt action rifle in .223 will be able to hit man-sized targets at 300 yards with iron sights and twice that far with a 6x powered scope. The .30 M1 carbine is a light and effective combat arm that proved superior to any pistol cartridge in effectiveness during WW2 and Korea. I've personally fired one and hit 2 pound coffee cans at 200 yards with the stock sights. You might be able to do it with a special very long barreled single shot pistol like the Thompson Contender chambered in 9mm but not from any military grade pistol or carbine in 9mm.

Originally posted by docklands
Most likely you will be running for your life with a handful of your valuables. Who has time to carry a rifle or shotgun with two hands when you are running for your life away from dangers? Even with a sling, the rifle will shake and rattle as you run, after 5 miles of running, you will loose the rifle or shotgun and just leave it.

Really? Funny that in the last 17 years of carrying a rifle in my hands, my life on my back and moving long distance at speed I have yet to drop the weapon to move faster. Why? because I know that a weapon is a life line.

A box of 100 shotgun shells will fill up your backback with no room for food or other basic life supporting necessities.

How much food do you think that you can carry for any distance? I know that each round of .308 that I carry is a potential meal or two. 200 rounds of rifle ammunition and the skills o use it will keep me going for a long time. There will be food in abundance for the first few weeks of sit x, but after that it will be the stuff on your back that will keep you alive. A rifle with ammo is a useful tool and opens up plenty of options. It should not be used alone but in conjunction with other methods of hunting.

Originally posted by docklands
Most likely you will be running for your life with a handful of your valuables. Who has time to carry a rifle or shotgun with two hands when you are running for your life away from dangers?

In an extreme survival situation I believe my "rifle" would be my "valuable".

I would keep a high caliber gun, probably a 12 guage shot gun handy. Also i would want a good hunting rifle for range too probably a .306. But also i would keep a .22 caliber air rifle. The latter is a air rifle made for hunting that you can purchase and order online, for it is NOT a firearm. Most of the cheap ones and low speed but a high speed one could be loaded with a .22 slug and basically be a silent well ranged weapon. Handy for a number of reasons if you have to bug out and hunt etc in the wilderness. And you could even fabricate your own ammo for it, and maintain it much easier than a convential firearm. And of course the low caliber means little stopping power. If a bear is chasing you, a couple of shots from a .22 or 9mm may not stop it, and if its right up on you it definately wont. But a .45 or a 12 guage probably would. Also shotguns are great simple guns and if you dont want a high caliber/kick weapon, get a small 20 guage version, The versatility is a must. And of course a good .306 is a time tested weapon. Its use in war (the M1 basically) is renowned for its range. A well made .306 can shoot a mile+.

Thats fine for general hunting. But i guess you could go over the top for some automatic weapons. Or maybe you would want to be prepared for danger. Well this is not a super easy thing for everyone to equip for. So i would thing to be more thinking about strategic camp placement rather than decking yourself out in SMGs and grenades. A well hidden/placed camp can be your best defense.



[edit on 2-10-2007 by feanorthedude]

[edit on 2-10-2007 by feanorthedude]

Originally posted by feanorthedude
A well made .306 can shoot a mile+.

Thats fine for general hunting. But i guess you could go over the top for some automatic weapons. Or maybe you would want to be prepared for danger. Well this is not a super easy thing for everyone to equip for. So i would thing to be more thinking about strategic camp placement rather than decking yourself out in SMGs and grenades. A well hidden/placed camp can be your best defense.



[edit on 2-10-2007 by feanorthedude]

[edit on 2-10-2007 by feanorthedude]

Are we talking about invading China or about survival?

Most of the posts here are by people who are hunters or live in areas off-the-grid. Let's face it, the densest populated areas are urban areas, your critical survival moment will not be in the jungle, but rather, on your way OUT of the city to a less populated areas.

If I see a guy with a LOAD of firearms, I'd team up with a bunch of thugs to get your valuable guns aways from you. The rifles and the shotguns with all of the "tactical" bells and whistles will self-advertise. Those things in time of crisis are more valuable than gold. You will get killed for those before by a wild bear.

There are plenty of food laying around in the supermarket, food processing plants, and shooting a 9mm for small game is not that difficult.

A .308 rifle is for specialty situation such as sniping or range show-off, NOT for basic survival. The ammo alone will cause you grief over 6 months of lugging just 500 rounds. A rifle also takes time to aim and is a terrible close quarter situation. Try to maneuver that thing in a tight urban jungle, inside a car, and I can point a pistol at you faster before you can get a aim at me. And in urban situation where there are plenty of thugs with guns, draw speed is critical.

A thug can drop you before you get that 1st shot on him with a rifle, let alone seeing beyond the large sniping scope you will surely have with that weapon. And forget taking a second shot with a bolt-action, a 15 rounds 9mm pistol can be emptied within seconds before you extract that 1st shell from your .308.

When you are out there, every pounds counts, a shotgun is heavy, and the shells are huge.

9mm.

docklands,

I would agree with you too a point and that is that most of your "thugs" of today have no idea of how to properly fire a handgun as evidenced by them trying to look cool while they shoot their victim. This is one of the reasons why we see so many innocent bystanders (children) shot these days.

Every time I see one of those hip hop hoodlums point a "9" by turning it sideways, I grimace. And don't tell me that this is only in the movies.

I think it's just important to pick one firearm and that's it. Unless you are just out to kill people.

Disclaimer: No offense to hip hop (although it's not music to me) and I also don't think anyone will take offense to my stereotyping hoodlums.

reply to post by jbondo


I think we are in agreement. Trust me, I would LOVE to blow a thug that threatens my life or the lives of my friends and family with a 12 gauge. Click click pump that forend and pull the trigger and see him drop like a bag of dirt. If I am to hole-up in my house or cabin, yeah, a 12 gauge by my side and I will sleep like a baby.

This is my dream weapon for HD:
serbu.com...

3 shots total though, with a 18" tube, you can get 8 shots, much more secure in multiple targets situations.

But, survival is not HD now is it? It's run for your life and hide, stay away from the aliens.

That is one serious shotgun!

SLPEXE

reply to post by docklands


.308 Wincherster/7.62 NATO a specialty round?


No offense meant but your ignorance of firearms is showing. Urban gangs don't run towards the sound of rifle fire, they run away from it. You don't see the Iraqi insurgents firing pistols at each other or Coalition Forces. Entry weapons in modern urban combat are shotguns and carbines with rifle cartridges. I laugh at the wannabee SWAT teams they show on the tube running around with SMG'S using pistol cartridges. They are so lucky that most gangmembers either aren't that serious resistance or bright about their weapons selection. Remember the North Hollywood Shootout? I can't remember if it were 2 or 3 bank robbers waded through 10 times there number of pistol packing police armed with AK's and AR's. You can survive being shot in the chest with a 9mm bullet but if you're shot in the chest with a bullet from higher powered rifle cartridge, the hydrostatic shock alone can rupture your internal organs instantly.

Defending yourself with a gun means that you intend to kill or be killed. If someone points a gun at me during a societal meltdown and I'm also armed they will likely be dead within a few seconds if they don't kill me first. Using a rifle as opposed to a pistol means that I won't have to waste time or a second shot on them.

reply to post by crgintx


Have you had any combat training? Do you know how to handle a rifle in moving target situation? You are assuming everything is going perfectly.
One shot mindset is great, but second shot is a critical lifesaver. At close range, your .308 will overpenetrate flesh and two layers of sheetrock behind the BG and hit who knows who?

It's true a pistol never wins war, but for personal, concealable, carry weapon, I'd take a pistol over a .308.

To handle a rifle in hostile situation is to be at constant state of readiness, that means two hands. With pistol, my draw speed will drop any thugs with a high caliber before he brings it up to aim.

I'd also opt for a shotgun before a rifle in survival mode.

reply to post by docklands


Docklands, if I were just allowed to have a pistol for survival, this would be my choice.

www.taurususa.com...

I'd get the 3" Magnum model with the 6.5" barrel. Not the most maneuverable of pistols but much more versatile a survival firearm than any 9mm pistol.

My self defense load would be .410 3" magnums loaded with with 000 buck shot. My hunting load would be the .45 Colt loaded with 300 grain flatnose bullets for larger game.

I've fired a friend's whose chambered in the 2.5 .410 shells and it will keep a load of #4 shot completely in a 6 inch circle at 7 yards which according to the shooting statistics is the average distance for most pistol shoot outs.

reply to post by crgintx



That is one awesome revolver! I always have a soft spot for revolver, it's simplicity is unbeatable, plus it's the "romantic" firearm. Love it! I just saw the youtube of the thing in action:

youtube.com...

Looks like it's got quite a kick to it. Still, a great looking mean pistol!

I have to say that my browning .308 lever was pretty darn fast.

If not for the weight of excessive ammo I'd love to have it available in a socio survival semi war zone. One things for sure, many more people will be in a state of confusion which causes those too late decision scenarios. In a half count hesitation I could center mass and fire.

Those guys in Cali had some serious body armor on. Taking shot after shot that bounced off like BB's. I was thoroughly amazed.

reply to post by docklands


Yes, I have had close quarters combat training. I used to guard nuclear weapons. The in-close troops were armed with 12ga. pump-action shotguns. Every one else had M16 with a few grenade launchers mixed in for good measure. Using your weapon effectively means using the right tactics. If I'm armed with a rifle or shotgun, you're not going to get close enough to use a pistol in an effective manner. Google instinct shooting. Most folks within a days training can routinely hit moving targets especially the dumb ones that run in a straight line.

In most urban combat situations these days, the cops now pull out that 12 ga. or AR-15 they carry in their cars and forsake the popgun 9mm. This has largely been done because of the spread of meth. Many cops have also upgraded from 9mm to .40 S&W and .45ACP for pistol rounds around here again due to dealing with the meth-heads. There like the mad zombies in Resident Evil if you get my drift.

So meth addicts keep on going after being shot with a 9 mm?

I honestly do not see many of them around my house to know.

reply to post by crgintx


Yeah, with the adrenaline rushing and blood saturated with drugs, most "urban zombies" needs multiple shots before going down. 12 ga. no question take the cakes for handling thugs.

I just imagining situation where that happens. Most people are aware enough to avoid the situation in the 1st place. That's why most of us don't drive around risky and shady areas.

The chances of you meeting hostiles during a survival situation is slim, we are not talking about living in 3rd world countries here.
Most folks I met while adventuring are nice enough to strike up conversation.

I would worry more about carrying enough food, drinks, water filters and clothing to keep me warm during the coldest of weather. Cause being lost, and freezing to death kills more hikers than anything.

If storage and carry weight is no issue, or if I can get my bike or car around, I'd carry multiple firearms, an AK, a rem 700, a mossberg 500, and a couple of pistols. Peace of mind!

Why does this thread keep going back to assault rifles/pistols etc? This is about a survival rifle, not a self defence weapon. I cannot see how anyone can justify being armed with just a 9mm pistol for a survival situation. It is a liability if your target is 25m+ away, has marginal stopping power at best and is pretty useless for any realistic hunting scenario.

A .308 rifle can be used at ranges further than the average shooter can shoot and can drop targets reliably at these ranges. As for the argument that it is useless for self defence, then you have obviously forgotten that a .303 bolt action rifle was the primary weapon for the british soldier for two world wars. Millions have been killed by .30 bolt action weapons in the last hundred years. Just because there are weapons around today that are better suited to this doesn't mean you should play down the lethality of a bolt action rifle in the hands of someone who knows how to use it.

I can be outside the effective and accurate range of a 9mm pistol from a standing start in about 3-4 seconds. It would take me several minutes to outrun the range of a .308 rifle. A pistol is only really useful for reaction at close range. With a decent rifle I could have two of your group dead before you even knew what was happening from >600m. Don't try telling me that's not useful.

[edit on 3-10-2007 by PaddyInf]

reply to post by PaddyInf


I guess survival to you means finding game in the woods. So your weapon is to keep you alive with food you shot. My survival scenario involve running and keeping only ONE compact firearm that I dont have to use hands to carry at any time, holster or in backpack, done, I'm running faster that some guy with a sling. Multiple firearms will require double the ammo, multiple slings. And if you ever run with a sling and backback, you know it gets annoying fast.

Long range shot means you know whether the target is hostile or not? How would you know 2 unidentified person 600yard away are friends or foe? Unless you are trying to snipe him and to sneak up to his property to steal his supplies?

In combat situation sure, I'd even use a 50mm why not, grenade laucher, toss 1st ask question later.

But old school survival rifle is really a Ruger .22. The old times people shot plenty game with that caliber, now is .308 or it's gimp.

Tactics, instinct and skills above caliber.



[edit on 3-10-2007 by docklands]

reply to post by jbondo


The area that I live in is next to small strip mall that has a convenience store and is on a road that leads to a local low-brow club on a lake known as a drug buy location. I see the meth zombies stop at the store all the time. I saw one get hit by a 4x4 truck and he popped right back up and tried leaving the area but some his "friends" managed to keep him around to the medics arrived. They examined him and determined he had internal injuries but he kept yelling he was fine. The medics doped him up and got him to the hospital in time. After he came down and sobered up, he decided he wanted to sue some one but the camera doesn't lie and it clearly showed him stepping into the path of the truck as it pulled into the parking lot. The meth-heads act like the Energizer Bunny on nuclear power. Meth heads aren't a pretty sight and their behavior makes makes crack heads look like responsible model citizens.

I read that 25% of all domestic disturbance calls in semi-rural areas like where I'm at are now meth related. Meth heads are far more violence prone then any other type of drug addict as well. 9mm auto's have always been marginally effective combat rounds. A mild recoiling round like the .44 Special, .45 Colt and .45 ACP are going to inflict far more damage/body disruption especially with hollowpoint bullets.