Theory about Heaven and Hell

Well I'm sorry but I'm afraid you'll have to go to hell to Stewards....you are denying the creations of god free will by spreading belief in an opinion and mere opinion...for that god judges you to go to hell.

Where as people like me and Toltec back up reincarnation with actual occurances, and reasoning and logic through deduction and observation, you continue to follow an unwavering path written by limited minds...for that, god hates you.

(I hope no one is shocked I decided to be god's word, but so many of you are so hipocritical, god demands me to administer his justice as is written in the bible....but that makes me a heathen too because we all have freedom of choice, so I'll see you all in hell yah? Oh wait...I'll be seeing god there too because the bible restricts freedom of choice *which is godly* and he of course wrote the bible...wow...looks like satan wins on this one)

Sincerely,
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I forgot to answer Byrd's question

by Byrd. 9/11/02. Which church are you affiliated with ?.

Well, I have thought not to mention them because I not sure they would appreciate being advertised on here.

But I will tell you this, The church that I attend was founded in the 1920s. Not here in the UK but in the Indian subcontinent, and it has spread worldwide since then.

Our aim is to follow the teachings of Jesus as best as possible and to be guided by the holy spirit in all things.

Our Moto is this:
Colossians 1.28. "Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:".

[Edited on 11-11-2002 by stewards]

What are you seventh day adventist?

Oh and the above post of mine is just taking out on your "one-mindedness" being applied without a statement that it is YOUR opinion...and not the actual law.

That mixed with the frustration being caused by TC and his constant irrelevant posts. Oh well I guess because of him the discussion of probably the greatest revelation ever
(Science is how, god is why) has ended...

GOOD GOING TC!!! You bible thrower!

Sincerely,
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Again, your ignorance overwhelmes. He loves you, which is why He sent His Son to die for you. Hating sin and hating sinners are two different things. Your choice is up to you, and it gives him nothing but pain that you reject Him. You do, however, have freedom of choice. Choices, however, come with consequences.
You may be god's word, but you are not God's Word, as you are not in accordance to God's word.

Well what about all the other species on the other worlds??? What about them TC??? Isn't jesus going to die for them too?

Sincerely,
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If there are other species on other worlds, you can rest assured that they know Christ. Where the other creatures that is referred to in the Bible come from is nothing that you or I would know. But since they fall on their face and sing praises to the Lamb, that should give you a clue.

Hey TC looks like you have full seeing this I am inclined to add a few more pounds

OK lets say one day we develop space travel to the point we encounter life on other worlds. And as a result we find that this world has never been exposed to Jesus. Are we then to convert these intelligent life forms to Christianity?

And to what extent do we apply such an effort?

I'd just like to point out that it is ODD that the christians in the 16th century could have been wrong.....and yet, here you are...revising YET again the bible. BUT THAT IS YOUR MERRIT!!!!

Through out many posts it may seem prevelent my main spiff with christianity is that they have changed their scriptures time and time again, erasing the past...

...but at least now-a-days Christians revise their scriptures but REMEMBER The past, and where they come from...only that way can we truly find our paths....and not be misled.

Sincerely,
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Mr Freemason

I must point out some misunderstanding.

people change the scriptures on doctrines of Devils

But the Word of God ( and there is only one) cannot be changed, and it abides forever.

why is it that you think that an almighty God cannot be in control of his own words.

God did not write the Bible Steward people did. This unlike the works of other cultures where those so accepted as prophets were allowed to live. This specifically in relation to the NT. In regard to the OT many of the books were handed down by word of mouth to a point in time in History.

Steward what happened to the Judges of Israel? Why are they not mentioned in the NT?

Well, I'm not claiming to totally understand everything...

Quantum theory shows one possible way.

The blackhole theory shows an even more probable way.

We also don't know what this dark matter is or how it cam to be, we have no thoeries about how it was created in the big bang. For all we know, this exotic matter could have always existed (another inconcievable thought alongside your nothingness idea). Perhaps through some sort of reactions with ZPE that we may not even begin to understand yet, could have brought about the universe. There is much science can't explain yet, but that does not show a need for a god to create what we don't have answers to.

Simply because science cannot yet measure the initial birth of our universe does not show the need for a god to have created any of it. Your right in a sense that god answers the why, but the answer it provides is nothing more than something to ease the mind of having to understand the more complex universe out there. Some people need that flase sense of security that god provides, others like my self would rather suffer learning the truths of our universe.

Your right about

"especially when you get into the higher sciences, such as chemistry and physics....that's where the whole thought of "nothing from something" goes out the window. "

But look on a much smaller scale, the true inner workings of our universe exist within the quantum world. There, something from nothing is a true statement.

Well the blackhole theory is a load of crock...I can't believe people still think that way...

...And as for god creating everything, really that's not my arguement I only want to point out that the ORDER in the universe, its definite design requires an organizer....something we can call a god....much different from the finger snapping ruler of heaven.

My arguement as I love to point out is about science//religion.

As you probably already guessed, the "Science answers the how, religion answers the why" bit.

If we have no purpose then there is no god, no soul, blah blah, but so long as there is a soul...something that is definitively us...there is something that could be called god, an organizer, or as I percieve it, existance in its most rudimentary state...but the more I learn about the workings of the universe...the more appearent to me it becomes that there is indeed a creator of sorts...an organizer.

Remember I used to be the stalwart defender of the universe just is and always will be, if this one dwindles out another will take its place.

But too much has to happen for that to be the case....Math shows that...I was so pissed off at this guys article that showed how many actual constants there are that if any were off none of us would be here...he said because of that there had to be a god...at the time I dismissed it as crap because they were just numbers....but when you know what all those numbers are actually used for...you see just how important it is that they are what they are.

Which is why although Science can unlock the workings of the universe...everyone should remain spiritual, because if everything were science, then we are all worthless and after we die...that is it, nothingness.

Sincerely,
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Are you afraid of dying into nothingness? This is IMHO the number one reason why people turn to religion or some form of religious belief. The numbers don't indicate the need of an orginizer, as you like to put it. The numbers are what they are by chance alone. It could've happened any which way and we wouldn't be here now, yet we were lucky. Can you show irrefutable proof that the numbers add up to the need for some cosmic orginizer?

No actually, I PROVED we don't die into nothingness, using Science

I must state my religion is entirely based on Logic and observation (science) I don't just say something is because I want it to be, that would be lying to myself, something I couldn't live with.

But to sum it up, I proved it back when I was athiest that we could not CEASE to exist because if we did...we'd not be alive right now.

Let me try to explain....we are memories, that is all....if we ceased to exist after death...we'd no longer have those memories...therefore...we'd NEVER have had those memories...much as if you were to forget everything up until the last year, would you have had a life before then?

Well that's what I believe the soul actually is...it is our individual experiences much like memories...but unlike memories we can't recall them because it is not in our minds...it is in our soul...it IS us...all that is left of our lives before.

But that's a brief and probably bad example of how we DO live after death....and of course it was completely compatible with or without a god so it worked for being the actual way of things...but still doesn't explain the why

For more information on my beliefs you will have to either find it in posts...or I may update this when I find it, or maybe I'll just spell it out for once in some gigantic post...

...hmm to deviate a little from our previous arguments...what do you think of that reasoning? There is of course WAY more to it, but that's simplified, and I'm curious if it sparks your mind as is, or if you need a little more insite to how I reasoned out how life HAS to work at the least....there could be more crap but that's all going into the realm of "I wish".

Sincerely,
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Steward what is unfortunate is that you would take someone of such dignity as the Dali Lama and claim he is engaged in Demon Fantasies (or however you put it).

Nonetheless I am engaged in the discussion with NC who's topic is more fitting and specific to the subject. Would therefore invite you to join us in the discussion. Substantial evidence exist to suggest that Reincarnation is a valid and Godly experience.

Your opinion that it is evil does little to support your position as in the same frame. Keep in mind that is merely my opinion at this point. Steward as much as you may think of yourself you are not a more pios or reverent man than the leader of the Tibetan System of beleif.

My impression that you may feel so is that you are grandious. Hence my position and responses to date.

PS: Steward have you ever heard of the
Tibetan Empire????

[Edited on 11-11-2002 by Toltec]

Leave it to a religious zealot to bash a man as great as the dalai lama...whom by the way is living proof of reincarnation...he litterally has been the dalai lama 14 times!

Sincerely,
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C'mon!!

"But to sum it up, I proved it back when I was athiest that we could not CEASE to exist because if we did...we'd not be alive right now. "

That's getting into the realm of pure rediculesness... Becuase we die into nothing means there's no possible way we can exist in the here and now?! Just because we have memories doesn't mean we HAVE to GO SOMEWHERE after death. It's purley chemical and electrical in nature, not spiritual.

Amnesia people lose thier memories, sometimes most of there lives, does this mean that at the point they lost those memories that they NEVER lived that 'lost' life? What of the people who remember them?

Your gonna have to explain it a hell of a lot better than memories if you wanna be looked at seriously...

Yes JamesG they never lived what they don't remember, you need to stop looking at things from an outsider's perspective.

If you went to sleep and woke up in what seemed like a second, but really was 10 hours...did you "exist" those 10 hours? Now the answer is yes, but why?

Is it any different if you die? What if you fell asleep, and never woke up...what life would you have lived? The one while you are awake, or the one while you are sleeping?

If you died and never were reborn, what life did you have then? The one while living, or the one while dead....so what if you don't exist when dead....what life did you have then?

We are only here NOW because we are here tomorrow, and the day after...everything we do is "remembered" that is why what we did, exists.

If you take that all away, by death, amnesia, or other wise...you lose it, it never happend.

Need I explain this better?

Sincerely,
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Originally posted by FreeMason
I'd just like to point out that it is ODD that the christians in the 16th century could have been wrong.....and yet, here you are...revising YET again the bible. BUT THAT IS YOUR MERRIT!!!!

Through out many posts it may seem prevelent my main spiff with christianity is that they have changed their scriptures time and time again, erasing the past...

...but at least now-a-days Christians revise their scriptures but REMEMBER The past, and where they come from...only that way can we truly find our paths....and not be misled.

Sincerely,
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There is no rewritingf of any scripture from me, idiotic pseudo-bigot, and if I were rewriting the scriptures, you wouldn't have a clue as Christianity is something you have little understanding of, and the Bible is something you haven't studied. Your assertions and allegations on Christianity is that of a twp year old with a pencil and paper making scribblings and claiming to be writing like the big kids; you don't know what you don't know.

Looks like I will need to explain better, because you seem VERY messed up....like my mom.

I guess there are just people out there who can't grasp the fact that life is a memory.

You don't live here and now because it is the past, you only live a memory, and can think of what to do at the moment...that is our physical selves...

However...as I had previously stated, if you knew ABSOLUTELY nothing of your life...what did you live? Sure the things you did happend, the things that happend to you happend to you...but that's all gone now...nothing happend...because that is all nothingness is.

My mom always tries to counter with..."well I remember what happend, others know you were alive" but we aren't eachother, we are all individuals, all that matters in death is what is happening to you, not who lives to know you.

Besides what happens when everyone else dies and you are completely forgotten.

That is why there is something in us...I call it our individuality, that continues...it's not a personality, it simply IS us...our existance...going from life to life.

It is this existance that is us...our bodies, merely a possessed being from which to view the world.

Back to being nothing...you MUST open your eyes...and ask you the real truth: What if I were nothing? What am I then?

You as anyone would answer, nothing....you are nothing if you are nothing...DUH

But nothing is nothing, it leaves no room for memories, for presents, or futures...it is nothing....it also leaves no room for pasts...the past...which we see through memories and words and now pictures....also becomes nothing.

That past that makes up everythign we are...is gone. If when you die you become nothing, then ALL becomes nothing...and anything you were...anything you saw and anything you knew, dies with you...nothing happend, nothing is happening, and nothing will happen.

There isn't even any time while in nothing, so there is no way of knowing that you are nothing...you are nothing.

Nothingness...as you probably can feel, is impossible....my good man....it is impossible for US to be nothing...everything we are, is based on existance, we can not become a rock, and cease to exist.

For if we were to become nothing, then that is all we are...and we'd be no different then something without a soul, a robot can think, but it is nothing...only something to us...but for now...nothing to itself.

That is why there is an existance, that survives our bodies....it is what we are, not humans...but existance, our bodies merely what we experience this world through.

And all our "souls" are individual, that is why I am not you and you not me...but we still are connected, all of us...connected to what could be called god...connected to the "cosmic memory".

The very memory of the universe...everything that happens...it "remembers" because without memory, it falls into nothingness....we can't see it, nor tap into its knowledge...maybe because we are too ignorant, maybe because it's not an actual being, but a literal state of existance...but it's there....and when everything passess into nothingness, it will remain as will we, until another universe comes. And our cycle of experiencing begins anew.

It is because of that supreme memory that everything does not simply cease to be, because while we have like a scar on our souls, all that happend to us...we have no knowledge or even a conceivability of anything that happens out side of the furthest reach of our telescopes..but this consiouness knows, it experiences all that is inanimate, it flows through the waters, rises with the mountains, blows on the winds both earthly and stellar.

It IS everything, we merely are individuals, torn from it by possessing these higher life forms...and when we die...we do not lose that individuality, because we are no longer a part of the "cosmic memory" "great conciousness" call it what you will. We now have only our experiences, which means we can not return to the great conciousness by simple nature alone....no, rather we go on being individuals and when we die we continue to become one with the cosmic memory once more, sharing all that we experienced. Then to be born again.

However, I now believe that if your soul has experinced much cause of pain and suffering, too much evil that your soul is scarred forever...your individuality is stolen, and you become as close to nothingness as you can...you become a memory...no more future...but that memory, prevents you from becomming nothing, which is of course impossible.

Now I just laid upon you WAYYYY To much and your first thoughts will be to immediately dismiss it...but work with the previous statements of how you can NOT become nothingness...and if you work with it long enough, you'll see how I evolved that thought that I did about life, and how it works.

After all, there IS purpose in this universe, to explore it, and experience it...to not do those things goes against our very natures.....and there is nothing in our minds that makes us want to explore, it is in our soul.

Sincerely,
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