Theory about Heaven and Hell

Jeeze TC you are truly misguided, you DID rewrite scriptures (of course by YOU I mean christianity, what are you so vain you think I'm actually talking about YOU!)

You no longer believe the earth was created in 6 literal days do you? You no longer believe that the universe rotated around the earth...DO YOU!!!!

I think not....my case is proven, your recent statement is only insulting to you , you should delete it. You were obviously too vain to understand it.

Sincerely,
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Originally posted by Toltec
Great TC but in actuality to we accept the present interpretation, the one provided by Vatican one, or what was evident in the days' of John (90AD). With by the way was a system of belief that accepted Reincarnation as valid. I mean is not internal life and salvation given to those and only those who get it right? Those who pick the actual system of belief Jesus actually was trying to promote?

the question I feel is relevant at this point TC is that is my God better than yours???

Top naswer your question in reference to passing the word on to aliens if we make contact with those who don't know Him - I would say that we would be obligated to do that. However, I don't feel that'll ever be a problem.
If we ever do make contact with aliens and they have never heard of Christ, and if they pass a test of the spirit that indicates they are not demons doing the deceit thing, I'd say that Christianity, Catholicism and Islam are to faiths that will be extinct in record time.

Toltec, the way, the only way, to the Father is through the Son. That way is quite narrow, but it is simple and not confusing. The Bible maintains its theme throughout, it doesn't contradict itself anywhere. People looking in from the outside, trying to find things that don't fit only uncover things they don't understand and won't understand without the Holy Spirit.
I've seen alot of stuff that is supposed to be old Christian teachings that contradict the Bible. Don't worry, that isn't of Christianity. Today, just as then, false prophets come to deceive.

Wow, my ride is here early. Gotta go, and will pick up later.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
uncover things they don't understand and won't understand

No you just convinced yourself that those discrepancies don't mean anything, or you twisted the literal word of the bible into some connotation that make sense.

You are seeing it through a peep hole, while we see it through a giant door. Don't call us the non-understanding ones...I DEMAND YOU EXPLAIN THE PASSAGES IN MY POLYTHEISM POST!!!

Oh vain one!

Sincerely,
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Wow JamesG, have *you* been misled. This is going to be a long reply to quite a few posts...A lot has happened in this thread since I looked at it last. I say this now in order to warn away those of you who have short attention spans.

And this, like everything else I've posted in this topic, is merely my own interpretation of how I see Life, The Universe & Everything...And can't see how it adds up to 42 (yet). It's merely one person's look at TWGSM (The Whole General Sort of Mish-mash).

Originally posted by JamesG
You seem to be overlooking something. While we were in eden, adam and eve knew nothing of good and evil, until satan talked eve into eating the apple and she in turn talked adam into eating it as well, that we learned of good and evil.

Etc...I'm not going to copy the entire post...

For one thing, the Bible doesn't *specifiy* that the fruit was an apple...That's an invention of false teachings...Taking poetic license, so to speak. The Bible merely uses the word "fruit". In this case, it could be the same as referring to "the fruits of one's labors".

If God didn't *want* us to have knowledge of good & evil, then why did He allow Satan the opportunity to convince Eve to take it? God punished Adam & Eve for *disobedience*, not the learning of knowledge itself...Even though God *knew* beforehand that this is what would happen. So now God wants us to use our knowledge of the difference between good & evil in order to find our way back to Him...Since we *can* make the choice, God *lets* us see both sides so that we're *capable* of making an *informed choice*.

You have pointed out that Satan came from God too...Therefore God *created* evil as well. There are many examples in the Bible where God has commanded acts of evil to be performed on people. God is the Source of All, yet you've been misled away from that simple truth.

Since God *knew* what was to happen, He gave us the ability to grow up & make our own mistakes to *learn better*...Just as human parents can't coddle & protect their children for their *entire lives*, God gives us enough leeway for us to learn for ourselves...Sort of like the Cosmic College of Hard Knocks. The best teacher, after all, is experience. God *tells* us the way to please Him, but He allows us to choose to follow what He says or not...The same way a parent can teach a child, so God teaches us...But just like a parent who can't interfere *too much* without actually hurting the child in the long run, God also treats His children the same. He knows that we'll be stronger if we learn how to do that on our own, just as the child can grow up into a successful adult. Also, similar to a loving human parent, God wants us to grow up into somebody He can actually be proud of when we go back to see Him at Home (Heaven). Again the human-parent simularity...If your child disobeyed you, wouldn't you punish your child? If you told your child to stay out of the cookie jar but the kid went & snuck out a cookie, wouldn't you spank him even if you *knew* that he was going to disobey & sneak out that cookie? By kicking us out of Eden (Which I believe is more of a "span of time" rather than an actual "place"), God was giving us a "spanking" for taking that "cookie".

Yes, I know that I used a lot of *human-based* comparisons here, but it's the only real anaology I have to make my point in the simplest terms I can think of.

Originally posted by FreeMason If you ask me, it seems there are two gods up there fighting over this creation....and neither has the power to stop the other....or they'd have done so.

This sounds soooo much like the Persian religion of Zaroastism (sp?) & the "battle" between Ahura Mazda & (Oooooo! What was the name of the evil side of this one? I forgot!).

Originally posted by FreeMason Math even...look at math, it is precise, predictable, god is in math if anywhere.
Hence sacred geometry.

That sounds like Pythagoras...

Originally posted by FreeMason Hah, if you'd just open your eyes to your very own scripture, you'd see that God is only TRYING to dismiss the fact there are other gods

No, God has readily *admitted* to the existance of other gods...He simply doesn't want us to worship any of them without worshipping *Him as being above them*. "Thou shalt not worship any other gods before Me."

Originally posted by FreeMason What does god have? Jews who hate muslims...muslims who hate christians...christians who hate everybody...GOD HAS A BUNCH OF HIPPOCRITS...

Because these kinds of people use man-made religion, twist it around & perform Satan's works; They've lost their way to God. But then, God *knew* that this would happen & He *does* intend to rescue us from it...In the fullness of time, when His children have grown up & learned enough to mature; Unfortunately, some people will only learn & mature *after* being in Hell for a while (literal translation from scripture descibes "an age", however long that's really supposed to be). Once *all* human souls have learned their lesson (which will include *knowing* each minute detail of every sin they've commited in their lives so that they'll never be tempted to *repeat* them), God will bring us all Home (Heaven) & destroy Hell & those who still haven't learned their lesson (Satan & his demon-followers).

Nope, scripture doesn't give any specific *timeframe* for this either...Those timeframes have been *conjectured* by the people who *think* they've figured it out. The Bible *does* give some indications for that timeframe, but it's written in non-specific terms (Because the people who wrote those prophecies didn't have the terminology, the *language*, to explain themselves properly). However, even the prophecies (Revelations) doesn't propose any specific timeframe...Only a series of signs to look for. Anything more specific that that is mere conjecture...wrought by *people*.

Originally posted by FreeMason Science explains the HOW!!! and only the HOW!!!
God explains the WHY!!! and only the WHY!!!

This is why I follow *both* the "hows" from science & the "whys" from God...It's the only way to see the "whole picture" of existance itself.

By seeking the "how" (if the seeking is done with the right attitude), then we may actually gain *some* insight of the "why"...For example, If you take apart a radio, you can understand how it works. Once you understand how it works, you may be able to figure out why it was invented. The Bible seems to describe God's "why He created it" in terms we can comprehend...As a parent loves, instructs (& punishes when gone astray) their own children. Yeah, with the world the way it is now, we've still got a *lot* to learn...

Originally posted by JamesG The numbers are what they are by chance alone. It could've happened any which way and we wouldn't be here now, yet we were lucky. Can you show irrefutable proof that the numbers add up to the need for some cosmic orginizer?

Okay, so what are the real chances that something as complex as the universe happened "by accident"? what's your numbers to support that the universe came from nothing? Not even the most learned astrophysicists can figure that out. The odds must be (forgive me for this use of the term) literally astronomical.
If science has already proven that there *can't* be "something from "nothing", then where did the initial creation of the universe come from...Answer: God. I don't speak of God as an actual being or entity (It's been shown throughout history that men have always given a "human-like form" to that which they make religions for)...I speak of God as The Creator, the One Who Is All. God has even described Himself as "I Am that I Am", which is to mean that He *is*, literally, Everything (As I stated above...TWGSM).

Originally posted by JamesGJust because we have memories doesn't mean we HAVE to GO SOMEWHERE after death. It's purley chemical and electrical in nature, not spiritual.

Then how do you explain the *reliable* reports of ghosts?...Granted, many such reports are faked & *proven* to be faked...But many reports can *not* be proven false. So, if there is no soul or spirit, where do ghosts come from?

IMO, you only look at pieces of the "puzzle of reality" & try to force them into a picture of your own devising...Open up to the *totality* of existence & look at *all* of the facts before you try to see the whole picture. Discuss what you have seen, but don't try to force your opinion of what you're *not* looking at on us.

Originally posted by FreeMason If you take that all away, by death, amnesia, or other wise...you lose it, it never happend.

Actually, this is similar to the old "If a tree in a forest falls but no one hears it, does it actually fall"? Even if a person with amnesia can't remember anything of life, there *are* still other people who can perceive what the amnesiac does...Therefore, their lives still exist. Even without a direct outside perception of the amnesiac, the evidence of what he does still remains behind him; If he knocks a cup off of a table, others can later see that cup on the floor.

No, there *is* something that exists beyond the physical Earth & universe...Something that we haven't been able to fully perceive or understand yet. Merely because we haven't perceived it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

An example in Science: How many *billions* of years passed before we poor little humans developed the technology to perceive Infrared & Ultraviolet wavelengths of light? Does this mean that it didn't exist before that time? No, it was always there, waiting for us to see it.

You have to be able to look at *everything* you see before you can even *begin* to piece the picture together. This is what I see FM trying to do, in comparison to JamesG who chooses to wear blinders.



[Edited on 11-11-2002 by MidnightDStroyer]

Man you were doing pretty well MD until you botched that last quote which happend to be mine.

Remember I said...my mother always says that well what about the people who knew you blah blah as you said...but I still say....what happens when every knowable trace of you is gone, gone from our memories, gone from existance....all that remains of most people these days are graves...and many don't even have that.

Look at the cave men of a million years ago, they had a life no? But no one has the faintest clue they existed, sure we know cave men existed, but not who they were...which of course is what makes up our individuality.

That individuality is important...

Sincerely,
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I botched up your quote because I forgot to specify that I used the quote to make my point to JamesG...
...At least I gave you credit for typing it first!

Your right, I am just babbling nonsense. You are soo right and I am so wrong. Netchicken, that wasn't very nice. I have not out right attacked anyone here, except for a few, and you go on with your high and mighty "he's just babbling nonsense."

Have I discredited you? Have I slandered you? Nope.
You just have done what one would expect, from someone in your position. The only people I think are babbling, are those who do not believe in a merciful Father in Heaven. You say only the Christians are going to be saved. Are you one of those? How do you know?
If the Bible is the only Word left to us in these last days, then don't you think that is not very Fatherlike? Think about it. How many people in this forum are discussing their own intrepretations of the Word of God? How many are actually agreeing? And you think that your interpretation is the right one? That you are so prudent and wise and that others are wrong? Are we not created in their image and countenance? Did not the voice of God sound that He was pleased with His Son when he was baptized in the river Jordan? Did not Christ teach the Apostles to Pray to the Father in His name for all things? Did the Father not appear to Christ and Peter, James, and John, on the Mount of Tranfiguration along with Elijah and Moses? And did not Christ pray to the Father that His apostles be one as He and His Father are one? Did not Christ plead for forgiveness towards the crucifiers and Jews that mocked Him? These are the instances where these two persons are exactly that, two people. Therefore to Know God is Life eternal. When you want to say that only the Christians are going to Heaven, it may be a good idea to clarify these before going. The Spirit toucheth all men everywhere and testifies of that truth no matter how much we know, there is still much more to learn.

Isaiah 29: 11-15. humility helps us to be in tune with the Spirit, and not listen to the precepts of men.

You also have to explain the "near death" experiences and the experiences of people revived after dying.

People generally report being taken to a heaven, though only the Christians see a Christian version of heaven. This, by the way, also includes agnostics and atheists. These experiences are well-documented and numerous.

If you say it's the delusions of a dying brain, then the Christian afterlife falls under this group.

If you say it's true for the Christians, then it must also be true for the Wiccans, Buddhists, Hindus, Moslems, etc, etc, etc... because they all report the same things and none of them get met by Jehovah's angels or Jesus.

Well Blahblahblah, I am sorry if you are upset but I am just calling a spade a spade.

If you have your own ideas about what heaven and hell is and have your own theology as well so be it, good for you.

But to say that it "IS" heaven is wrong. you would be more accurate giving it an entirely new name befitting its new idea. ... like noddy land....

What heaven is and what hell is is written in the bible, if you don't follow that and instead believe in an alternative theory then call it by its right name, to continue to call it heaven and hell is to falsely use the name that is describing something else.

If I buy a Ford Mustang car, remove the wheels, put wings on it, and a helicopter motor, and a giant helecopter tail and a bubble cockpit and ditch the steering and use a joystick... is it still a mustang car?

No its something entirely new ... and so is your concept so create a new name for it as well to be intellectually honest...

We die, we die into nothingness. Our brin, and all other bodily functions cease. Our minds, are composed of chemical and electrical reactions. Ask any neurologist. The simple fact that memories are stored withing our brains through chemical and electrical reactions doesn't mean we continue to exist after death, as these reaction cease after death.

When a person has amnesia, this does not mean they NEVER experienced things they don't remember. There brain is going through problems and just cant recall the memories that ARE STILL there. If I lost all memory of posting everything on this forum doesn't mean it NEVER happened. It still did, I'm just having problems recalling that information already STORED in my brain.

When that amnesia patient recovers, this doesn't mean they magically relived what they forgot before, it means there brain is back to normal.

When you die, you still lived before death. It doesn't matter if you KNOW your dead or not, you still lived prior to death. Your reletives will still remember that you lived. (I know you mentioned individuality)....

Even as an individual, in the case of amnesia, you still lived what you don't remember. And with amnesia itself, that memory comes back after some time. With death however, it doesn't. You just die. There is no purpose, it just is. Why fight it with all these unprovable after life thoeries? You'll never know if it's true until AFTER death. So it's nothing more than an ease of mind from a fear of death. Admitted or not. For me... I don't fear death, as it is a natural occurance. A part of life. Something that IS going to happen no matter what. I have no need to kid myself that I will continue on with unprovable theories that won't show proof or lack of until AFTER I am dead in the first place. So why fight death with silly notions of a continuance that can't be proven until after you die? If your wrong, after your dead, it won't matter. So just accept death for what it is. An end to an existance.

Scientists using electromagnetics on people have found out that they can make those people here the voice of god or experiance a classic alien abduction and a host of other neat things. It was featured in wired magazine. And just recently, I saw they found a spot on the brain, when an electrode is placed on it, it gives a person an OOBE/NDE experiance...

It's all in your minds, you mental wacko's (JK)

Toltec

I would like to clear up a little point. I try my best to rarely put my own opinions into this religious forum. i do not believe in telling people my own opinions. i believe in telling people what the Bible says whether or not you think it was written by man and not God. What I say is not from me but it is written in the Bible.

I would like to respond to your comments about me without quoting all what you wrote. Why is it you think that I think that I am pious or grandious. I will tell you what I think I am. I was made from the dust of the ground, I am nothing in the sight of God. If God was to get me by the scruff of my neck and throw me into the pit of Hell, then I would look up to God and say, Yes God, you are right to put me here, You have Judged correctly and this is what I deserve. But on the other hand if God were to take me to Heaven than I could only say that it is your mercies on me Lord.

Toltec, I do not think myself anything great, quite the opposite actually.

I also do not understand how I can answer your question of what happened to the Judges of Israel and why they are not mentioned in the NT.

You believe in reincarnation yet you call yourself a christian, this does not make sense when the Bible does not speak of its existence. Show me some sources to prove Reincarnation.

Stewards,

Nothing about any religion makes sense. Including the idea's people construe from it. It's best to not ask I guess... I kinda learned that when I found out I was never born because I don't remember it.

You could be right JamesG

Nothing may make sense about religion in this world.

But I ask myself why this is?

I Know, It is because this world is upside down. But the teachings of Jesus try to put it the right way up.

Steward

If you read my last post an invitation has been offered so as far as reincarnation and Christianity feel free join me at the thread begun by NC as a reference here is the Thread.

xmb.abovetopsecret.com...

In regard to your other question Steward I am of Indian decent from a culture which
about 1962 years ago were exposed to a Resurrected Jesus Christ.

Originally posted by FreeMason

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
uncover things they don't understand and won't understand

No you just convinced yourself that those discrepancies don't mean anything, or you twisted the literal word of the bible into some connotation that make sense.

You are seeing it through a peep hole, while we see it through a giant door. Don't call us the non-understanding ones...I DEMAND YOU EXPLAIN THE PASSAGES IN MY POLYTHEISM POST!!!

Oh vain one!

Sincerely,
no signature

I will answer what I wish to answer and nothing to you. Your convoluted thought process is and intentional twisting of others' postings or answers to your questions indicate you are nothing more than an equally warped and disturbed little child. A warped little child does not makedemands to a superior. And, young master "Free Mason", I am your superior in every conceivable manner.

LoL we'll see who's superior, so far I attack what you write, while you attack ONLY who I am, yet you don't know me, you've never even seen me.

You only hurt yourself everytime you do...you most recent claim that I "twist quotes" the hell I do....I take nothing out of context, just because I don't QUOTE AN ENTIRE POST, does not mean I don't keep the context.

Thinking back to the above post...you have to have a memory as good as mine, to acutally understand, see me you we are polar, constantly bickering about eachothers thoughts.

Through out ALL your posts...that is how I percieve you, a narrow-minded bible thrower....where as EVERYONE not just me, that isn't YOU, has an actual open mind...

NetChicken comes close, but he's more towards your side, and Stewards and Truth as well....but only YOU and NC are truly rude, and you above NC.

You in this last post only show your narrow-mindedness...especially with your comment "I don't need to explain anything to you".

The true sign of a christian? You betray and befoul your religion...but it is ok...I FORGIVE YOU.

You have fallen to the darkside my friend...YOU have become a fanatic. A zealot, who can only reinforce the small legitimacy of his beliefs, with brute faith.

Sad...sad...

Oh and stop with the "belittling" of me and masonry, you don't even know what I am in the Scottish Rite, so I'd take kindly of you to refrain from it.

Sincerely,
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Blah Blah and Blah.

You are an idiotic pseudo-bigot that wandered in here and thought that he could be offensive and insulting to the regulars here. You sit around the house all day and post garbage on the board, 3/4's of which is either just a worthless post with no meaning or it is erroneous, idiotic and pseudo-bigoted. You are no value added. If you left this board it would only enhance its value.
To remain in your present state of gross stupidity is your choice. To remain in your present state of utter and total worthlessness will only provoke me into pointing out your incredibly wide range of mental disorder at every chance I have.

Don't tell me about Christianity. It's the only thing you know less about than Free Masonry.

well blahblahblah,
Satan to an extend did live
in the begginning of the world there was the most beutiful angel in heaven.
his name was Lutherpher
but he didn't want to be just the most beautiful angel
he wanted to be greater or equal to god
so when god made adam and eve guess who really told eve to eat the apple? yes it was Lutherpher and so god punished him by turning him into a horrible and ugly snake.
this is the first interpretation of the devil that we get in the bible
so religiously wise Satan did to an certain extend live.

sorry i missed spelled Lucifer