Israeli F-16's Fire At German Naval Vessels

Originally posted by IAF101
It is a typical response to the typical bigoted behaviour !

Bigoted? Ha! Another typical response. What on earth makes me a bigot? Please, provide details.....

Originally posted by IAF101
If think it is arrogant so be it, that doesnt change the fact that they are. Most Western AA systems use Israeli technology and expertise. Most of Israels weapons industries are the principal suppliers to most western nations. As for experience, they have plenty with 4 wars and countless air sorties through out much of Israels exsistence. Moreover the Israeli F-16 cannot be compared to other F-16's because they use completely different avionics and radars that are produced in Israel .

Oh, how silly of me. I forgot that BAe is really an Israeli company. I forgot that they produce their equipment in Israel. I really must brush up on my knowledge of the UK's premier Arms manufacturer.



Israel is a principal supplier?



I've looked into the Israeli arms Industry and it would seem your a prinicipal supplier to 2nd and 3rd World countries, with the only western deals being for UAV's to places like Finland and Switzerland. the only reference I can find for the UK is a trial of Rafael's Gill/Spike anti-tank missile system. We seem to sell you far more stuff in return.

Originally posted by IAF101
How do you know that the RAF isnt really a military version of FedEx for the USAF when they havent really seen any action since the Falklands ?

Well, your forgetting the 2 Gulf Wars, but then I never was as arrogant as to say that we were superior. Until such a time when an Air Force goes up against a decent match, you just don't know. Any pilot can fly a jet at 30,000 feet in complete safety and blow up stuff that doesn't shoot back.

Not quite sure where you get the impression that we're a "a military version of FedEx" for the US. They do they're own logistics, we don't lift anything for the Yanks. What we get to do for them is the low level stuff they're not keen on doing

Yeah you need to show some more respect for British Fighter pilots. They've been fighting air wars since before isreal even was born. And they were fighting against better aircraft that the germans were producing. They fought hard and with more skill than their adversaries and developed a first rate reputation. Some WW2 british pilots were up aginst such odds that they became aces in one mission alone. Don't think britian wouldn't be a even match for the IAF.

Oh, and I don't think isrealie special forces wouldn't fare any better against the SAS either. I think SAS would win, sorry.

As for isreals navy. They better think again if they think they have what it takes to take on any western navy...period. Littoral or blue water. 688 class US SSN could easily sneak into the med. launch it's tomahawk payload obliterate most of the isreali military in an hours time (isreal is roughly the size of los angeles county) then take it's leisure picking of any naval ships deemed hostile in the area. The 688 is an older boat and britains got stuff that could best it. SO my question is how much havoc could a british sub do? A lot.

Isreal is used to fighting with it's peers and 2nd and 3rd world militaries. Buzzing a german naval boat and straffing it is like the baby gorilla antagonising the silverback. It tolerates it but you all know what happens when the silverback decides he's annoyed. It's called a bitch slap across the room, and a traumatized baby gorilla hiding back in the corner with a new found respect for the silverback and a hard lesson learned.

IAF, I'm no Israel Basher. I follow geopolitics with interest and call it as I see it. Right now I'm calling as follows:

Isreal hasn't fought a serious conventional military threat in 30 years and they're in no hurry to start again. That's why their trying to play the UN like a fiddle just like everyone always does and get UNIFIL out, because they know that if they cross the line with the Euros they'd get spanked. The circumstances are all against Israel geographically, economically, demographically, and politically. They're in the wrong place with the wrong resources inviting trouble from a greater force.

For all the talk of Israeli arms manufacturing superiority, the bottom line is that Israel's stock in trade is contracting for the production of western designs, borrowing ideas from western designs, then using the profits to buy western equipment and fit it with a small handful of indigenous designs that were designed by companies funded by western capital.

So get over the Napoleon complex, relax, and for your own good, please don't mess with the continent that spawned the REAL Napoleon.

The bigotry and double standards are self-evident.

Originally posted by stumason
I forgot that they produce their equipment in Israel.

Then you shouldnt be soo forgetful! While you are looking up on the gun running ways of your BAE, a look at companies like Rafael, Elbit, RADA Electronic industries and their collaborations with European companies and BAE in particular!

Israel is a principal supplier?

I am sure that you also forgot about the IMI (Israeli Military Industries), go read up.

I've looked into the Israeli arms Industry and it would seem your a prinicipal supplier to 2nd and 3rd World countries, with the only western deals being for UAV's to places like Finland and Switzerland. the only reference I can find for the UK is a trial of Rafael's Gill/Spike anti-tank missile system. We seem to sell you far more stuff in return.

Well that just shows how bad your research has been, doesnt it ?
Here is a list of equipment that Israel has recently sold to the UK:

UK & Israel arms exports and collaborations

Recent Contracts:

· From November 2001 the MoD placed orders for the SIMON door-breaching grenade made by Rafael, for use by the British Army in Iraq.10
· In 2001 the MoD purchased a number of Rafael 'Spike' anti-tank missiles for trialling,11 but awarded the contract to the Javelin anti-tank missile produced by Raytheon-Lockheed Martin.12
· The MoD purchased 26,010 ground launched L20 cluster shells in 2003 and 3,009 in 2004, sourced from Israel.13 (The actual MoD contract was with BAE Systems who sub contracted the manufacture of the shell to Israel Military Industries.14) These were purchased to maintain stock levels (30,345 were purchased in 1996/97). About 2,000 of these shells were used in the battle for Basra.15
· In August 2003 the UK MoD awarded a contract for armour protection for its Chinook helicopters to Permali Gloucester of the UK. The armour package was produced under a 'collaborative venture' between Permali Gloucester and Israel’s Plasan Sasa.16
· In June 2004 it was reported that the MoD had 'recently selected' a Rafael' overhead weapons station' (armed with a 7.62mm machine gun and to be called 'Enforcer') for use on armoured vehicles. It is to be manufactured in the UK by AEI.17 It was proposed to the UK by AEI and BAE Systems, AEI's main subcontractor.18
· In July 2004 the MoD chose Thales as the preferred bidder for the Watchkeeper system. The bid is built round unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) designed by Elbit, which will be built by Elbit Systems (UEL) in Leicester. The other bidders for this contract were: BAE Systems, Lockheed Martin and Northrup Grumman. Northrup Grumman had based their bid around Israel Aircraft Industries’ UAV Ranger.19
· The UK purchased Rafael Litening II targeting pods for their Eurofighter Typhoons as an interim measure while a new targeting pod was selected. It is reported that the Rafael Litening III pod won the final contract.

Potential Contracts
· Rafael and Germany’s Dynamit Nobel are bidding to supply ‘bunker buster’ or Infantry Anti-Structures Weapons to the British Army. The contract was due to be awarded in early 2004.22
· In September 2004 Tadiran Spectralink of Israel, a 'specialist in search-and rescue systems', was to join in partnership with an undisclosed UK company to bid for the contract for the RAFs Personnel Emergency Locator System. The winning tender was due to be awarded in the last quarter of 2004.23
· Rafael and Ultra Electronics have teamed up to offer the Reccelite reconnaissance system to the RAF. The system allows aircraft to locate a target and download location data or imagery into missiles or guided bombs they are carrying.24
· Israel Aircraft Industries is preparing to compete for a British Army loitering munitions contract.These are weapons that can stay over a battlefield for hours and deliver warheads with GPS guidance. European missile-maker MBDA is one of the four known bidders for the weapon and is reported to be in talks with Israel Aircraft Industries about developing their Harpy vehicle to fulfill this role.25
· There is apparently a 'face off' between Rafael and Israel Military Industries to supply the MoD with explosive reactive armour for UK Warrior infantry vehicles and Challenger 2 tanks. BAE Systems had, on MoD advice, been working on the armour with IMI but was then told to study further options. It is reported that MI remains a front runner, along with Rafael.26
.........

The above list is a bit dated but I am sure that should keep you satisfied for a while.
These are just contracts with the Uk, the EU would throw up many many more contracts.

Well, your forgetting the 2 Gulf Wars,

If you are talking about doing CAS and maintaining AD while the USAF took out the SAM's in Gulf War 1 and did most of the bombing in second. Then that isnt much to write homw about. Its not like the RAF went up against any significant force ever after the Luftwaffe has it ? Its always been the USAF's sidekick to do the dirty work except maybe in falklands.
As for the Israeli Air Force, their record speaks for itself, from their raids against Egypt to their engagements over Syria, to the nuclear facility bombing in Iraq, to their countless sorties against terrorists. They have nothing left to prove.

Originally posted by stumason
Bigoted? Ha! Another typical response. What on earth makes me a bigot? Please, provide details.....

Well for one thing Stumason, your country assumed the right to give Palestinian land to Israel. That wasn't very fair now was it... but I'm at a loss as for why IAF is complaining about it. I thought Zionists were cool with displacing populations as long as it isn't happening in Germany.

Sorry Stu, couldn't resist.

A record of beating poorly equipped, poorly led Third World conscript forces and bands of ragtag militias is not as impressive as you seem to think. Were Israel to go up against any modern European or Asian force, the results would be quite a bit different.

Israel has displayed a great deal of innovation for such a small country, especially in avionics and electronics. Then again, a large and well placed intellegence apparatus in place in the US defense establishment, along with unfettered access to much of the US's most advanced weapon systems, has certainly helped.

Originally posted by BASSPLYR
Last time I checked the uzi, and galil weren't the weapon of choice for most western militaries either. Not with HK around. And why do most of their weapon systems closley resemble american weapon systems. They totally jacked the M1-A1 design and apparently it's easier to disable to boot. Yeah the best at everything, paticularily target accuasition.

It is stupid to think that anybody uses the HK on a battle field ! The M-16 which is America's weapon of choice and the M-4 which is the IDF weapon of choice both have great Israeli input.
Most Isreali weapon systems resembel American weapons systems beacause of the greater contribution of Israeli weapons industries into the American weapons industry.

The Merkav is based on the M1A1 but is a differnt platform designed independently to counter terrorist attacks in Palestine. Also its not like the ERA on the M1A1 was not made by IMI!

It's stupid that every special operations group in the world use or prefer HK weapons? HK are battle tested and reliable, and accurate, and built better than isreali guns thats why they are the weapon of choice. when you can afford one. Didn't know isreal was instrumental in inventing the CAR 15 during the Vietnam War. Wonders never cease. Nor the AK 47, or the SA80. looks like alot of people don't use isreali weapons maybe cause they arent "the best".

The isreali M1 wanna be got disabled pretty effectivly by palestinians. Not so great a tool against terrorists it turned out. In fact isreali bulldosers have done more to terrorise than the tanks have.

Originally posted by The Vagabond
Isreal hasn't fought a serious conventional military threat in 30 years and they're in no hurry to start again. That's why their trying to play the UN like a fiddle just like everyone always does and get UNIFIL out, because they know that if they cross the line with the Euros they'd get spanked. The circumstances are all against Israel geographically, economically, demographically, and politically. They're in the wrong place with the wrong resources inviting trouble from a greater force.

Trust me Vagabound, the Israelis dont give a fart about the Europeans and why should they ? Half if not all of Europe uses American weapons and american planes and american ships. They couldnt care less about the UNFIL or which European "power" thinks they run the show there! Most people are Judging the IDF with its performance in Lebanon this past year, which any IDF officer will tell you hardly a fraction of their real potential was utilized due to various political reasons.
The UNFIL is a puppet force that if given the chance the IDF would walk over tommorow to take out their supply routes through syria. It wont give Israel any brownie points diplomatically but it is do able. You are right in one way, the circumstances are against Israel as they are not allowed to act with enough liberty and freedom to ensure their lasting saftey. The media spin and hype and politics has affected the IDF operations and therefore they havent been able to acheive the results they hoped for. Ordinary Israelis are pissed about this fact too.
As for getting spanked by an European force, that is a joke! Tell me which European force can deploy and operate in the middle east on its own? Without the US military logistics machine they can't even win against nations like Pakistan or Iran!

For all the talk of Israeli arms manufacturing superiority, the bottom line
is that Israel's stock in trade is contracting for the production of western designs, borrowing ideas from western designs, then using the profits to buy western equipment and fit it with a small handful of indigenous designs that were designed by companies funded by western capital.

Though it may not be publically aware the level of co-operation between the US military industry and the Israeli defence manufacturers is quite deep and most companies in the US source parts regularly from Israeli manufactureres and companies, not to mention other Israeli owned companies based in Europe.

As for messing with the continent that Napolean spawned, Israel is not on that continent and napolean never made it to the middle east anyway!

No actually Israeli weapon systems resemble american ones because they are reverse engieneered by isreal. Yeah isreal could probably afford to give their small population slightly better built m4s or m16's or whatever, but thats because they don't have to stock the armories for a continents worth of soldiers. That costs money.

Isreal was instrumental in developing the M16? Theres a new one.

And the US would have never developed sr-71 or f-117 either. Let me guess we built those under isreali direction so we could help the shin bet clandestinely hunt down more undesirables.

Originally posted by The Vagabond

but I'm at a loss as for why IAF is complaining about it. I thought Zionists were cool with displacing populations as long as it isn't happening in Germany.

Well had you better read history you would know that the British werent soo "giving" as they portrayed themselves to be and neither was their word of much value. The divide and conquer policy of the British "empire" are some of the basic reasons for most of this worlds bloodiest conflicts from Isreal/Palestine to India/Pakistan. Apparently ever where they left, they left the place with something to remember them by!

Tell me an israeli force that can deploy more than 50 miles away from the current isreali boarders and not get overwhelmed or isolated by the enemy. ANd don't say Isreali special forces, because special forces won't win a war where you have to occupy land.

Sorry, but isreal is small, their resources while used with ingienuity aren't able to handle even 3 days of a sustained war against a western country. I don't think isreal would even be able to handle Iran...there just too big for 'em. Maybe with europes or americas help, but not on their own. What are they going to do exodus out of isreal to attack iran in a land war? And leave isreal a ghost town for the palestinians to resecure?

Originally posted by BASSPLYR
I've even been told by them that they make better chocolate then the swiss, they grow better oranges than anywhere else..yadda yadda yadda. Please.

Well, I havent tried out the chocolat but I have tried out the wine and it is much better than some of the Euorpean wines, in fact much better than most French wine too.
The oranges is true also if you would choose to believe it or not. They have oranges that taste like apples !

Originally posted by BASSPLYR

Isreal is used to fighting with it's peers and 2nd and 3rd world militaries. Buzzing a german naval boat and straffing it is like the baby gorilla antagonising the silverback. It tolerates it but you all know what happens when the silverback decides he's annoyed. It's called a bitch slap across the room, and a traumatized baby gorilla hiding back in the corner with a new found respect for the silverback and a hard lesson learned.

A popular delusion with most post imperial nations is that they think they still matter. While some nations know this this a delusion but still act it out other truly believe this as if it were true. The other assumption that operating in the middle east, which would like the IDF operating in Austria would actually threaten the IDF is fantasy, just as the IDF operating in Austria would threaten the Bundeswehr.

Oranges are found growing wild all over LA and they come in tons of flavors. WOW an unusally sweet orange that has an apple taste. Have you been to the supermarket lately? They got plums that taste like grapes and oranges that squeeze red juice so sweet they taste like candy. And thats in crappy neighborhoods in LA! imagin what you get at gelsons?

I argue that California has better produce than isreal, even quality wise from individuel orchards.

California also has beat out both italy and france for high quality wine for the last few years too. then again so did austrailia, so again thats not saying too much for isreal. And I'm sure California's defense industry contributes a hole lot more than all of isreals to the world. California is only one state out of 50! I don't think Isreal is the "big" arms dealer to the worlds militaries.

What the heck was your last post trying to say?

Originally posted by BASSPLYR
It's stupid that every special operations group in the world use or prefer HK weapons? HK are battle tested and reliable, and accurate, and built better than isreali guns thats why they are the weapon of choice. when you can afford one.

I dont know how many soldier in the world use the HK on the field, do you ? Their only use maybe to shoot animals or to scare children as their range would limit them to nothing else. As for them being reliable and battle tested, when was the last time a HK was used as the standard assault rifle for the army in a military operation the scale of say Iraq ?

The isreali M1 wanna be got disabled pretty effectivly by palestinians. Not so great a tool against terrorists it turned out. In fact isreali bulldosers have done more to terrorise than the tanks have.

Well the Israelis dont use the M1 they use the Merkava battle tank which is purpose built for the IDF. These tanks are comparable to the M1A1 or the challenger and with Merkava tank crews trained the way they are, they stand more than a fighting chance against even the best. The Palestinians do occasionally manage to take out one or two merkavas but the operating circumstances for these tanks is completely different as they are used primarly in urban conflict where the threat scale is very high. They are designed for this and in extreemly rare cases does the Merkava lose its crew! The operational record of the Merkava speaks for itself!

I get a real kick when I hear Israelis telling how they really feel. Imagine these guys get to superpower status and you have them running around with Nukes and someone with delusions of grandeur comes along that has access to the button. Some here may think that the arabs have been making false claims based on anti-semetic thinking but its not. The Israelis always try to attribute it to "arab paranoia" or "conspiracy theory" but you see it right in front of you in plain text. Who better would know how they think more then their own neighbors who have been putting up with this attitude for a long time?

I tell you in all honesty if we ever turn our backs on them, we would be threatened even after all we have done for them, if we do not do what they ask. This guy here is not individual in his thinking and it shows with the recent buzzing of the German Boats, the French Unifil, and even with Finnish Unifil in the past.

I'm pretty sure the IDF operating in Austria would be a problem for the safety of the IDF forces actually on the ground. They would probably freeze to death for starters. And then poop out in the mountainus terrain in which they know nothing about fighting on. Deserts sure. Northern european forests no.

Incontrast if Austrias neighbor germany decided to attack isreal on it's home turf, I'm pretty sure mechanized german soldiers would remind them all about humbleness. Isreal is too small to really do anything other than surgical hits and defend their territory. Remember they are about the size of Los Angeles County and with a lower population. You just can't go starting wars with countries who have militaries as built up as western countries do.

Even if you are the "best" look at this scenerio. A special forces soldier...no screw that the worlds "best" SF soldier ends up in a prison he's surrounded by dangerous weight lifting murderers. He says something the inmate population doesn't like. Do you really think one man or a force that small would survive when they come for him in the rec room? He'd get overwhelmed and run for it or die trying. Get realistic. Even the "best" have their limits.

Originally posted by BASSPLYR
No actually Israeli weapon systems resemble american ones because they are reverse engieneered by isreal. Yeah isreal could probably afford to give their small population slightly better built m4s or m16's or whatever, but thats because they don't have to stock the armories for a continents worth of soldiers. That costs money.

The Isrealis have no need to reverse engineer anything as most if not all American companies will transfer technology or collaborate with Israeli weapons companies. The IDF does have better weapons to suit individual needs of its units, The M4 being the weapon of choice as urban combat is what it is meant for. There aremany other weapons that IMI produces that serve various IDF special operations forces. As for the number of soldiers and the money it would take, that is not a problem as the weapons are produced in Israel for the IDF thereby cutting costs and other profits.