Israeli F-16's Fire At German Naval Vessels

Well if you actually read what I wrote you'll see that I was talking about SF. you know the best of the best? And they choose not to use Isreali weapons. They all use HK when they can afford them. They are reliable, and they are used all the time because of that. from local SWAT to navy seals to SAS to GSG to french frogs, to US delta, oh and lets not forget the german army. And why? because they never let them down when in the field. And yeah I do know people who have used HKs and in Combat! And they say they work great and wouldn't want anything else.

HKs don't have a range!!!! er..um..yeah. and the Uzi shooting 9mm bullets will pick of that target over on the ridge. Sorry uzis are combat effective..in real life up to about 90 feet then they just piss off the assailent. And even Isrealies I've talked to don't like the galil. Sorry again.

If you want to talk about range, then look no further than Barrett arms. A US company. Those are the people you want to go to when you want to get into long, and I mean long range sniping.

No the Isreali tank is a M1 wanna be. And I'd put my money on the challenger in a head to head stand off.

Originally posted by BASSPLYR
Tell me an israeli force that can deploy more than 50 miles away from the current isreali boarders and not get overwhelmed or isolated by the enemy. ANd don't say Isreali special forces, because special forces won't win a war where you have to occupy land.

If you care to remember Israel had a central role in taking the Suez from the Egyptians which is more than 50 kms.

I don't think isreal would even be able to handle Iran...there just too big for 'em.

Well Israel would never risk a land war with anynation unless it was necessary for its saftey. The IDF would can could engage in bombing raids etc over iran without much difficulty without any external help other than maybe supply of munitions. As far as taking IRan on the ground , neither could Germany, the UK or for that matter even France today by itself do such a feat without the use of nuclear weapons despite their size!

You have very circular reasoning regarding Isreals ability to engage in real war...theater size war. not sending a collumn of troops with air support to take the suiz canal from egypt. Who are themselves a joke as far as militaries go. That would be like bragging because the US marines marched 50 miles into mexico, fought and won against the federales and siezed rosarita beach.

No isreal wouldn't be able to handle projecting their might in anyother way than airial harrasment of the other country, which would stop once they quickly run out of resources. remember you are isolated and without many resources and cut off from the rest of the world. You can't go on some huge offensive.

Originally posted by BASSPLYR
Oranges are found growing wild all over LA and they come in tons of flavors. WOW an unusally sweet orange that has an apple taste. Have you been to the supermarket lately? They got plums that taste like grapes and oranges that squeeze red juice so sweet they taste like candy. And thats in crappy neighborhoods in LA! imagin what you get at gelsons?

Maybe they are a product of mutation in the California region but in Israel they are genetically developed and unlike the fertile plains of CAlafornia or southern france, israel is mainly desert and the per acre yeild in Israel is the highest in the world despite the great challenges faced by farmers there. With scare water and sacre nutrition in the soil more is being done that what California currently can do.

I argue that California has better produce than isreal, even quality wise from individuel orchards.

Well that would be a futile exercise as that would be only for argument sake.

California also has beat out both italy and france for high quality wine for the last few years too. then again so did austrailia, so again thats not saying too much for isreal. And I'm sure California's defense industry contributes a hole lot more than all of isreals to the world. California is only one state out of 50! I don't think Isreal is the "big" arms dealer to the worlds militaries.

California is greatest contributer to the US economy and comapring to anyother state in America is stupid as the economy of california is the 6th largest in the world, with the US as a whole being #1. So you cannot proceed to multiply 50 as you so facifully contended to do. Again I remind you that Israel is a land with largely desert and little water for irrigation. The ability to produce world class wine in a climate like that says a lot more than doing the same thing in nappa valley!

Have you read history? Germany did a pretty effective job of sweeping most of europe. They weren't in some better position then then they are now, and if pissed enough they could take a nation. Remember Berserkers started from the same region. Germanys just matured enough to learn how to get along with out having to go to war, they've moved on. But if you don't think their military could deliver some serious whoop ass, then you got another thing coming.

What the heck was your last post trying to say?

Exactly what it means.

Originally posted by BASSPLYR
I'm pretty sure the IDF operating in Austria would be a problem for the safety of the IDF forces actually on the ground. They would probably freeze to death for starters. And then poop out in the mountainus terrain in which they know nothing about fighting on. Deserts sure. Northern european forests no.

This is by far the most ignorant of all your comments. The IDF has operated on mountainous territory in the Golan heights and if it gets cold I believe they will resort to using cardigans or jackets!

Incontrast if Austrias neighbor germany decided to attack isreal on it's home turf, I'm pretty sure mechanized german soldiers would remind them all about humbleness.

There are too many assumptions here, first that they would actually proceed to do so , second they can actually move a sizeable number to do so and third they can actually pull it off. Dont forget they still have to defeat the merkava on its hometurf with a Leopard which would quite a feat indeed. The main reason the IDF choose not to adopt the M1A1 which is vastly superior to the Leopard is because it wasnt good enought to operate in Israel and thus the development of the Merkava and now going against a Leopard would mean endangering German tank crews as it is not going to be a Nazi Panzer division against a lowly Sherman!

Isreal is too small to really do anything other than surgical hits and defend their territory. Remember they are about the size of Los Angeles County and with a lower population. You just can't go starting wars with countries who have militaries as built up as western countries do.

Well many of Israels adverseries have thought along the same lines and it has brought them defeat. I dont see how the Europeans on thinking along these lines change their chances .

Your prison analagy has no relevance at best as numbers dont play as big as a role as they did and Israel has proved this time and time again in 1948 and 57.

actually I know a little bit about growing plants and I can say your argument is way off. See plants now a days are what we called b r e e d. We don't wait for mutations to occure in our favor. Ever heard of Luther Burbank...cause the city of burbank..you know NBC, Disney,Warner Brothers they're all in that city and it's inside of los angeles, is named after him. Luther Burbank invented most of the produce strains and varieties that we've had in the markets for about a century.

California is capable of producing lots and lots of produce because you are right we are blessed with fertile soil and great sources of water. We don't need to add all this stuff to the soil because it's already there, why waste money? Second irrigation has very little to do with the quality of individuel oranges. Thats in the genetics, and the generousity of the grow environment. Yeah they have little plots of land designed to get great yield off of them. We don't need to waste money on maximizing a plot of small land for that purpose. Besides that is NO accomplishment...look at the yields pot growers get from their broom closets...and those farmers are high on drugs!!

Oh and another thing, the california mojave desert is pretty if not everybit ashostile as the mediteranian deserts and we've got miles and miles of water irrigated farms producing all sorts of stuff you probably eat all the time and aren't aware of. Lets look how far back in history man has decided to irrigate things for. Oh yeah isreals real cutting edge on that one.

And no I don't think the golan heights are anywhere as hostile as the austrian alps. Like to see how a desert force handles a forest. Not a ceder forest a real one where light doesn't penetrate the canopy.

Yes a force much larger in size would be able to defeat isreal even with their fancy tanks that weren't designed after the M1 even tough it looks exactly like it, and has a worse record.

Originally posted by BASSPLYR
Well if you actually read what I wrote you'll see that I was talking about SF. you know the best of the best? And they choose not to use Isreali weapons. They all use HK when they can afford them.

The UZI is one of the largest selling small machine guns and is used by special forces world wide including the US Spec OPs and SAS apart from the IDF Commandos.
I dont know if you are aware of this or not but the Tavor is more a favorite amongst special forces than the aging HK. Also the SR-99 is one of the best in its departments.

HKs don't have a range!!!! er..um..yeah. and the Uzi shooting 9mm bullets will pick of that target over on the ridge. Sorry uzis are combat effective..in real life up to about 90 feet then they just piss off the assailent. And even Isrealies I've talked to don't like the galil. Sorry again.

Well the IDF standard weapon is the M4 as the Uzi doest serve all its purposes and the Galil is an old weapon that has been discontinued in most battalions long back.

No the Isreali tank is a M1 wanna be. And I'd put my money on the challenger in a head to head stand off.

Well you are free to bet as you wish but you would only lose your money!

And my annology still stands. You may be lethal and potent,and smart but against overwhelming odds you will loose. Whats every SF group do when they come against large disproportional odds. They Peel Back and retreat. Every single one of them do. It's a common sense thing and not wasting soldiers and weapons that you spent millions on. To think that you can, will, and does get you killed everytime, thats why nobody with who isn't suffering from delusions of granduere will do it.

I'm still waiting to hear about how the Isreali military invented the car 15 during the vietnam war.
Or how many SF groups have dropped HK's for more " favorible" isreali guns with superior range.

Which special ops would rather have a uzi than a HK PDW? Just curious. Uzi's are concealable but thats their only advantage, but so are HKs. SAS-which groups. US spec. ops. Not the ones i've met.

M4s don't have all that great of range either. so whats an m4 standoff ability against say an m16 placed 200 feet farther away than yuor guns range and shooting back at you. Tavor-which groups use it over HK for the roll of close quarters combat?

Originally posted by BASSPLYR
You have very circular reasoning regarding Isreals ability to engage in real war..

That statement makes no sense.

.theater size war. not sending a collumn of troops with air support to take the suiz canal from egypt. Who are themselves a joke as far as militaries go.

Well it took the British and the french to invest in a lot more troops and power (when they had power!) than a mere coloum. Also if you consider a coloumn of troops and airpower to take the whole fo teh sinai upto the suez capturing thousands of egyptian soldier then that speaks volumes about the IDF soldiers doesnt it ? capturing an area many times the size of Israel itself!

remember you are isolated and without many resources and cut off from the rest of the world. You can't go on some huge offensive.

Well there is access to the mediteranian and that is all Israel needs. As for a sustained land based offensive it would be hard but if it were needed it could be done. That is one of the reasons why the IDF needs to be soo good, to win wars fast and decisively.

Originally posted by BASSPLYR
Have you read history? Germany did a pretty effective job of sweeping most of europe. They weren't in some better position then then they are now, and if pissed enough they could take a nation. Remember Berserkers started from the same region........

Todays Germany is not the germany of the past and neither is todays Israel the Israel of the past. While Germany has dimminished its ability to fight Israel has been forced to develop its ability to fight. Moreover most german troops have never faced battle against any force nearly as good as the IDF anywhere in the world.

If you are going to talk about Bismark next and how he strode across Prussia, it is a waste of time! The Bundeswehr knows what they can do and so does the IDF.

Originally posted by BASSPLYR
Luther Burbank invented most of the produce strains and varieties that we've had in the markets for about a century.

Well that doesnt concern me who this man is, the end result is that you produce something in a place favorable to producing it and are still not capable of outdoing what we are able to do here in the desert!

Second irrigation has very little to do with the quality of individuel oranges. Thats in the genetics, and the generousity of the grow environment.

This shows you know little about what you speak of! Water plays a central role in the quality of the produce from a farm. Even the best seed with best practices will fall fallow if there is not adequate water and water retention in the soil. Both of which are not favorable in ISrael.

Yeah they have little plots of land designed to get great yield off of them. We don't need to waste money on maximizing a plot of small land for that purpose. Besides that is NO accomplishment...look at the yields pot growers get from their broom closets...and those farmers are high on drugs!!

So is it an accomplishment to grow a wild weed in a broom closet when you compare that with a fruit orchard in the desert ?? If you think growing things in the nappa valley with plenty of water and good climate is an acheivement, then you have no chance of even comming close to replicating what is being done in Israel!

Originally posted by BASSPLYR
Oh and another thing, the california mojave desert is pretty if not everybit ashostile as the mediteranian deserts

One, this is a middle eastern desert. Two, do you grow your grapes in the desert ? Three, Israel's output per acre is higher than the output from Californian farms. four, the mojave desert is close to a supply of water from elsewhere in the state while Israel doesnt have that luxury.

And no I don't think the golan heights are anywhere as hostile as the austrian alps. Like to see how a desert force handles a forest. Not a ceder forest a real one where light doesn't penetrate the canopy.

Unlike antiquated european armed forces there is no desert force or forest force. There is one defense force to handle defense be it desert or forest. And actually the golan heights is more dangerous than the swiss alps because while in golan heights you have syrian military with artillery and rocket lauchers, the swiss alps is littered with resorts and glaciers. Also if they were to operate in Austria, they would not have to confine themselves to only the alps !

Yes a force much larger in size would be able to defeat isreal even with their fancy tanks that weren't designed after the M1 even tough it looks exactly like it, and has a worse record.

This shows that you still that strength is determined by numbers as it did during ww2. What good is 5000 tanks when one nuclear weapon would destroy it all ? That kind of thinking is antiquated at best and therefore has helped delude all those who have choosen to stand agaisnt Israel .
BTW the Merkava has a better record than the M1 and has seen more action. Also it doesnt look like the M1A1 at all.

Originally posted by BASSPLYR
And my annology still stands. You may be lethal and potent,and smart but against overwhelming odds you will loose. Whats every SF group do when they come against large disproportional odds.

It stands for those who still cant come to term with reality. As for Spec Ops they are choosen to perform their jobs in place with overwhelming odds, that is why they are special I beleive. Other wise people could send in regular, not special (:lol forces.

I'm still waiting to hear about how the Isreali military invented the car 15 during the vietnam war.

Why are you waiting I've never said they invented ( what is there to invent ? ) the CAR !

Or how many SF groups have dropped HK's for more " favorible" isreali guns with superior range.

If you believe that all Spec Ops use Hk's you are again wrong. Spec Ops use weapons depending on the type of job they are going to perform, everybody knows this. You should want to as well.

Originally posted by BASSPLYR
Which special ops would rather have a uzi than a HK PDW? Just curious. Uzi's are concealable but thats their only advantage, but so are HKs. SAS-which groups. US spec. ops. Not the ones i've met.

Again, you expect everybody to be gullible. Apparently you are in the circle of very dangerous people! SAS, US Spec OPs, French Commando units?? and they share operational information with you, supposedly!
Well next times these friends come along you should ask them if they dont have anything else except a HK what kind of Special Op unit they are ??

M4s don't have all that great of range either. so whats an m4 standoff ability against say an m16 placed 200 feet farther away than yuor guns range and shooting back at you. Tavor-which groups use it over HK for the roll of close quarters combat?

That is the range the IDF think is necessary for their soldier to have while conducting their duties. As for standoff ability (whatever that is! ) they are meant to be used in urban combat senarios and that is where they are seen as being used.

As for the Tevor, it is used by the Indian Armed forces and the IDF.



[edit on 10-11-2006 by IAF101]

I agree. Californian Oranges are better than Israeli.

Back to the point of this thread, I think I heard of more aggresive posturing from the Israelis but it involved the French. Yes, I remember now. The French came within 2 seconds of firing on the Israeli planes. Anyone have a link?

Lets hope this doesn't get out of hand...

nice avatar, iaf101. matches your personality. were you one of the pilots that fired/buzzed over the TWO german vessels? perhaps a little racial hatred helped ease the trigger?
your ranting about israel's superiourity at EVERYTHING reminds of a certain historical dark age for your people. except, it was the germans doing the ranting.
funny, that it was the germans that thought they needed more room, but their victims that got it.
if israel continues down the hitler path(along with amerika), perhaps the palestinians can have their land back. land stolen by england, and given to,(mostly, by population) the thirteenth tribe, the ashkenazim.

my favourite part of this thread was when vagabond pointed out the bigotry of stu mason(no offense, stu, but england is the devil, both historically, and currently.)
nice pissing contest, too. i wish there was another planet you people could have this discussion on. it's like your all stroking your weapons, waiting with eager anticipation for them to shoot off.

a funny world where people of aryan decent(khazaar ashkenazim jews) are genocided by people who claim they are superiour because they are aryan(germans), and then these aryans claim a semitic land by the 'rights' of britons and label everyone 'anti-semetic' who questions their right to stomp all over the actual semites who were already living there for the last FOREVER years(the palestinians).
WW3 hopefully wipes EVERYONE off the earth who 'admits hate'. people suck(but i still love them).

i wonder if the wine and oranges will be good after 500 nukes are sent spiralling around the planet?