Its gonna kick off in the UK first! *Muslim troubles that is!*

Originally posted by Jamuhn

Originally posted by Mcphisto
Anti-muslim propaganda? You telling me that none of this is done by muslims?

So you condemn an entire religious group because of some idiots?



If you read what I wrote in full you will see that I said because of muslim extremists people like ME are guilty of being anti-muslim!

I won't condone any backslash against Muslims in general, but I REALLY understand the outrage of the Brits.

I mean, come on. These muslim youths attacking the homes of four soldiers coming back from war? I'm sure as hell Brits there would be pissed off, they allow Muslims to immigrate to their country and suddenly they attack the homes of returning soldiers?


These actions prove how loyal these Muslims are to their country. I'm sure there are loads of them who despise their own country, but only a few would actually act out.

If they don't like Britain, get the hell out.

I'm sure there are good Muslim citizens who put their allegience to their country, but these idiots really make it hard for us to accept that.

Originally posted by estar
I don't even feel like reply to this topic because its just full of hate, propaganda and dillusion. Mcphisto I see you have BNP in your signature, that party is nothing short of being a mix between Hitler and the KKK, to even come on here and post a completly utterly biased view of muslims makes me mad. Go get educated on the world and stop preaching hate and making tensions 10x as worse. BNP are a joke in the UK and you are part of that joke, who ever takes this party and there views seriously need to go back in time. Im suprised you even post on a open forum such as this, as your views seem to be stuck back in the stone ages.

I wish people start treating people as Individuals, race, colour, religion shouldn't even come into question. If there a terrorist there a terrorist nothing more nothing less. People didn't go round calling the IRA, catholic terrorists did they?

[edit on 8-10-2006 by estar]

[edit on 8-10-2006 by estar]

The BNP may be a joke to you, just as much as Sharia law is to me, but if something aint done about it, well before you know it we will all be beating our wifes for not wearing burkas! And at least with the BNP, they have to be voted in by a democratic majority (including muslim votes). Unlike Sharia Law where you just get shot or murdered for even thinking of a thing called voting!!

You may not like what I have to say but at the moment I am allowed to say these things. I have done nothing except say that tensions in the UK are rising due to lots of things, and all you can say is I am a racist?

Maybe we should all love our neighbours and stuff. Cant say if they will love you back though! Doubt it!

What about the thousands of Native White British "yobs" who have been trashing your country for years? Are these people of absolutley no consequence? Are they just kids being kids because they are not Muslim?
Its right here on the BBC

Where is your outrage? why are these people not being condemned and told to leave Britain? They are obviously not showing their loyalty to their nation.

A spokesman for letting agency Kings, who are marketing the property, said: “It was an isolated case of vandalism. We do not know the reasons behind it.”

As far as the source cited, there really is no concrete evidence to prove this was in fact Muslim yobs that did this. Noone has come out and claimed credit for it either.

All I can say is, I am glad I live in America. I would not mind visiting, but I am afraid your citizens will look at me like a criminal and call me either immigrant scum, or even a Muslim scum. I look Arab to some people apparantley. Well in any case, all I can do is look them in the eye with a smile and say "The Lord still loves you, and so do I"

Its funny that this thread started with 'Muslim people did......blah blah" and if you read the news then it doesnt even say that they were muslim or atleast it hasnt been proved yet......and it says it was a simple case of vandalism...

yet....the story needs to be twisted to make the muslim brotha seem evil. bravo!

Im a muslim and ffrom wat i see now i dont give a abt the world. its beyond repair now.....i have tried to change people view's on muslim people but they still look at me with suspicion.....

All i konw is.....if Bush and company comes to my hometown with his army and tries to harm my family and friends.....imma grab an AK and shoot every soldier i can......even though i never picked up a gun before......

but u see......when situation demands it....i wud do it......its called self defense



[Mod Edit: Profanity removed - Jak]

Terms And Conditions Of Use
1b.) Profanity: You will not use profanity in our forums, and will neither post with language or content that is obscene, sexually oriented, or sexually suggestive nor link to sites that contain such content.

[edit on 9/10/06 by JAK]

half_minded, you seem to filled with much anger and resentment. Although I am Christian, we both know that our two ideologies share many of the same beliefs. We all want peace, and top be treated with respect. We both strive in our life to serve Allah.

the best way to do this, is to smother our enemies with kindness, and show them that their hatred and sinful filth cannot penetrate our divine protection from our supreme protector. We must not allow our souls to be filled with the very same hate that the Devil is attempting to infect in all of us, Muslim, Chrsitian, Jew or Atheists alike. The Devil has no side. His only goal is to seperate us from God. Although he does many of the things like steal from us, hurt our family and friends, spread hate, those are not his true goals. His goals are only to seperate us from our eternal Father.

By allowing yourself, by any of us allowing ourselves to be filled with this hate and contempt for others, we are not only straying away from that which we are supposed to live by, but also losing the protection we are given by our Lord. This is in fact the goal of the Devil, that is to putrify and pervert your soul and seperate us from Allah.

Please, understand that just because we are from different sides of the Earth, and the TV lies to us about our natural hate for each other, I am here, and I accept you as my brother. I live my day here to serve Allah by blessing everyone I come into contact with respect, kindness, and the lvoe they deserve. Everyone deserves it, everyone can get it, and everyone can give it.

Nice to see some sensible people out there......maybe thats why the world is still in one piece and not been blown to bits by dumb like Bush and Osama.

I suggest every aemrican read abt how the american government really works. Look in the history books and see how government has always sacrificed its own people for their personal gains. Im sure everyone should read about how the Big Banks and the bankers control american money and soil and ultimately the government maybe then you might get a clearer picture on what this 'war on terror' is all about. Then all the 'official stories' might not seem so true to you.

Reab about why the US government is in so much debt. I suggest you all do some research and try to stop the real 'terrorists' in your country and we will do the same here.

And also I shud add......the simple answer to a simple question....why are so many people dying everyday?

Because US wont leave the countries where they dont belong and the people are gonna fight till death till they het freedom. We did it in India and got the brits out and now the middle east is doing the same. Its more than obvious that if my country is under attack by whoever, im gonna think abt protecting my family and friends first......so if any Us solider or insurgents come to my door....i will shoot their brains out......no questions asked......

if they come to my door with gun and grenades then they obviously dont want peace and freedom for me........so i will take them down before they shoot me or bomb the out of my house.

Very simple rule....its called survival.......which we all have tendecy of and from what I see, US is a big threat to lot of countries in the world. It has already destroyed 2 and helped Israel damage Lebanon. So if I follow your logic, im gonna see every american and bush supporter or anti muslim as a threat to my and my family's life. Im gonna label every american as a 'potential terrorist' and view them suspiciously.

You keep asking why the muslims dont stand up against the extremist leaders. Guess what.....we see Bush and the US as a bigger threat to mankind than anyone else.....so we will do something abt that first.

And when we dont do anything and sit quitely then comes out the propoganda stuff......danish cartoons, mohammad bobbleheads, etc. just to provoke the muslims who are already angry at the US and its attacks on them and for spreading anti-muslim views all across the world.

This all started with 9/11. that was used to fuel instant hate against muslims and its been going on since....even though there are so many 'coincidences', 'unproven theories', missing evidences from 9/11, but Bush did not take time in attacking Afghanistan and killing thousands. And soon after followed iraq which was a baseless war.

And to those who say that iraq was 'potential threat'....it cud have used WMDs on US.....then u need to remember one rule which is followed very strictyl in US. Innocent until proven guilty.

And with all the intelligence and spy companies and technology US has, im sure it cud have known that iraq was gonna attack and cud have stopped it (if they wanted to) in time. If they dont have that, then u shud question ur government as to where all you tax money goes.....it sure as hell doesnt go in your pockets.

So to repeat my point once again.......if you come to my country/town/city/house with a gun and greandes....us soldiers or not...... . Try me!


[Mod Edit: Profanity removed - Jak]

Terms And Conditions Of Use
1b.) Profanity: You will not use profanity in our forums, and will neither post with language or content that is obscene, sexually oriented, or sexually suggestive nor link to sites that contain such content.

[edit on 9/10/06 by JAK]

Again, half_minded, you are allowing the Devil's thoughts to fill your head and pollute your soul. Vent you anger if you must, but you just threw me in their as a terrorist, as which I am clearly showing you I am not. Please, PLEASE try really really hard to purify this negative energy you are holding up, and transform it over to a positive flow with prayer. Do you honestly, and righously believe this is how Allah/God really woudl like you to be feeling right now?

Hate means you are Angry or afraid or a combination of both. If you are either of those you are not in a comfortabe state of mind, and are most likely not happy as a result of that. That hate is therefore causing you missery, now why oh why would our Lord want that? He does not! Those feelings are of the Devil, and he is attempting to pollute your soul. Resist those feelings, and focus on the good things.

And btw....I am muslim and I have a christian girlfriend and I have dozens of friends of different races and religion. We all never had problems and just get pissed about what US is doing.....I guess its more clear from a 'Bird's eye point of view'.

More americans need to wake up and realize how their government is slowly taking their freedom away in the name of war against terrorism. Imagine all the spying they do.

give u one example....they can find out if you have been visiting websites about making bombs......can u belive that.....and u call urself free people???....where is the freedom.....

And while im at it.....let me educate you some more......Except Saudi and a couple other countries.....no muslim man beats his wife or forces her to wear hijab......they woman chooses to do so......if you wanna argue abt that point then come to middle east whr I live and show me a family that does it.

And the stereotyping with the camels and the tents....not funny anymore.......do u have any idea how much oil middle east has and how rich these arabs are.
U oughtta come take a look. I wonder why US always seems to attack the countries who are 'potential threats' with lot of 'natural resources and oil'.

They provoke some more anti-muslim propoganda and attack any country they wish to gain control and if the muslims try to protest or fight back then they are all labelled terrorists. And americans wonder why US is hated so much in the east.

And a request to the ATS members.....when someone posts a biased opinion or a stereotype opinion abt a muslim, ask them if they even know 1 muslim or have every lived in the middle east.

Originally posted by Mcphisto

Originally posted by Jamuhn

Originally posted by Mcphisto
Anti-muslim propaganda? You telling me that none of this is done by muslims?

So you condemn an entire religious group because of some idiots?

If you read what I wrote in full you will see that I said because of muslim extremists people like ME are guilty of being anti-muslim!

So that's a yes, you form opinions about a group based on the actions of a minority.

Originally posted by half_minded
And while im at it.....let me educate you some more......Except Saudi and a couple other countries.....no muslim man beats his wife or forces her to wear hijab......they woman chooses to do so......if you wanna argue abt that point then come to middle east whr I live and show me a family that does it.

Don't be silly. Ignoring facts and negative sides of Islam (in a Western point of view) is a problem I often encounter when debating with Muslim friends. I am aware of the fact that the world I am living in, the Western world, does have many negative sides as well, yet I don't care admitting it, which is for Muslims I've been speaking to significantly different.

Do you remember the murder of Dutch movie producer Theo vanGogh? Apparently, he was murdered by a young radical Muslim, since the person he actually wanted to kill, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, was too heavily secured. She was threatened with liquidation by Muslim radicals for criticizing the prophet. I know the majority of Muslims condemn such a murder, but we cannot deny that there is also a group supporting such violence.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali, now living in the US, is a young ex-Muslim feminist trying to expose the violent treatment of women in Muslim countries; she made a movie with VanGhogh about this particular taboo, of which a trailer can be watched here.

Isn't it too ridiculous for words that people have to fear for their lives as a consequence of expressing their opinion in a democratic country? I've been studying in the Netherlands and I remember two or three other politicians needed similar protection, some even had to go into hiding

You don't have to educate me on the fact that Muslim are allowed to beat their wifes. Reading through the site of Answering Islam educates me more than enough.

1) INTRODUCTION - STATUS OF THE WIFE IN ISLAM


One of the more controversial issues in Islam is the Quran’s authorization for husbands to beat disobedient wives. This is found in chapter 4, called “Women”, verse 34. Additional information on Islamic wife beating is found in Muhammad’s Traditions (Hadith), and Sira (biographical material). Many people have criticized Islam because of this harsh sanction, and many Muslims have written articles seeking ways to mollify or defend it. In review of the actual teachings of the Quran, Hadith, and Sira, Islam is rightly criticized. This command is not only a harsh way to treat one’s wife, it portrays the degraded position of married women in Islam. It will be shown from the Quran, Hadith, Sira, and other Islamic writings that this “Islamic” wife beating is physical and painful.

Please note that wife beating is not only an Islamic problem. It is a common occurrence throughout the entire world. Some cultures accept it more readily than others. However, Islam accepts the practice to an extent that Muslim societies do not see it as a problem.

Before moving on and addressing the subject of Islamic wife beating in detail, I want to pause and examine a more crucial point: the exhortation to beat the disobedient wife is not an aberration, oddity, disjointed concept, or stand alone element, in Islam’s positioning of females, rather, the command to beat disobedient wives is founded upon a woman’s subservient / secondary status in Islam. You cannot separate the issue of wife beating apart from the context of her inferior position in the marriage relationship.

To fully comprehend the issue of Islamic wife beating her position with respect to her husband must be first understood. Wife beating is allowed because of the lower position she occupies. A person with a severe virus may run a high fever. While the fever can be quite a grave problem it is actually a symptom of another sickness at work. Wife beating is a symptom of the wife’s degraded status in Islam. Beyond the right of husbands to beat their disobedient wives, there is a deeper, more pernicious, disease at work. Wife beating is merely the bad fruit of a bad root. Once this element is understood the rationale behind Muhammad’s command to beat disobedient wives comes into focus and fits in its proper place.

When I first began to study the topic, I did not realize that an Islamic marriage is not equivalent to a Christian marriage. Its rules, roles, and requirements are quite different. In a Christian marriage, the husband is given the role as head of the household, and the wife is expected to submit to the husband’s leadership. However, she is his equal in terms of social and religious status; she is not inferior to him. In Islam, the husband is the custodian of his wife. She is considered to be in-between slave and free. The woman is managed and controlled. The relationship between a married woman and her husband is similar to the relationship between parents and children. Parents have a responsible custody of their children and expect their obedience. When children are disobedient they are disciplined and sometimes spanked. Muhammad’s viewpoint of women was that they lack self-control, and thus for their own good, and societies’ good, they must be subordinate to their husbands. They must obey. Although an adult women is more mature and capable than a child she is still not equal to a man; thus is subject to him. Islam teaches that men are superior to women. When a man gives his bride a dowry, he is accredited the right to manage his wife. By accepting his dowry, a woman is giving her husband the right to her regulation.

I am not saying that the wife is the husband’s slave. Her status is above that of a slave. Muhammad urged his followers to treat their wives well. He did not want to see them beaten without cause. He wanted good marriage relationships between husband and wife. However, his desires for happy marriages and kind treatment do not mitigate the authority he gave men over women or the position he ascribed to women. In Islamic thought, in Muhammad’s thought, the wife is not considered the husband’s equal, rather, she is an inferior, subordinate partner, who is to be treated gently and kindly, but still under the man’s authority. While the Muslim husband may love and respect his wife and treat her with great kindness, the foundational principles of their marriage remain. If she persists in disobedience to his wishes he has the right, even the responsibility, to beat her, to bring her into submission once again, and re-establish a “happy” marriage.

Of course many Muslim men will not beat their wives, but others (rightfully) do, at least, according to Islamic principles, yet Muslims should be aware that such behavior is not accepted in Western societies, if you cannot agree with the Western point of view, don't come.

You basically say wife beating is some kind of cliché, but it does happen, and more often than you are pretending; according to the Quran nothing is wrong with it, it speaks of the 'responsibility' ... to beat. Not even to speak of how many Muslim men misuse the fact they are allowed to beat their wives.

That's not being anti Muslim, that's reality, whether you like it or not; doing as if it's a Western invention and exaggeration is ignorant in my opinion. Bear in mind that my argument is not in relation to the topic of the thread.

[edit on 9-10-2006 by Mdv2]

I think the western World has waited long enough to see the Islamic world sort out it's fundementalists. We constantly hear that "the fundementalists are only a small part of a larger more moderate muslim world" however the more I see supposedly moderate Muslims appearing on Tv preaching radical viws the more I doubt the existence of such a majority.

In the past few weeks we have seen:

Muslim outrage at a quote merely repeated by a Pope who is trying to create inter religion dialogue, this lead to many Muslims taking to the street preaching radical views.

Extremeists gate grashing a speach of the Home Secretary

And finnally Jack Straw a repectedable statesman is being condemmed because certain Islamic groups are quoting only a fraction of a large speech and using it condmemn him and the government.

Regardless of my own views, I can see that the patience of the British population is growing thin. It is only a matter of time until something horrendous happens. It is time for the Islam world to try and be more accepting of their wetern cousins, while at the same time I think that the western world can giver one LAST attempt to accept the Islamic population.

Jensy

Muslims try to change the way countrys are run.... like wtf do they want a muslim only day out at alton towers ¬_¬

Unfortunately there is no way to fight Radical Islam through the military. It has to be through education. Western culture and ideals brought to the Middle East and anywhere else.

Originally posted by WatcheR1990
Muslims try to change the way countrys are run.... like wtf do they want a muslim only day out at alton towers ¬_¬

This particular event (which was cancelled) is often brought up by the ignorant, racist and imflamatory (obviously I don't mean you mate) as an example of impending appocolypse but many many single-interest groups hold their own days at Alton Towers - there's even [shock, horror] a gay and lesbian Alton Towers day every year. Hardly the end of the World!

Back to the OP's point (however slanted) I do think there's a rising tide of tension and suspicion in the UK. This is being whipped up by the media but the increasing radicalisation / isolation of muslim youth and rising support for extreme racist groups like the BNP and preveolance of racist views from white brits seen on the web are very very worrying indicators of problems ahead.

There are many reasons for this:

The UK's underlying assumption that immigrants will willingly become more British generation by generation.

The resentment of Muslim youth who did not make a conscious decision to emmigrate but found themselves British by birth

The Saudi's funding of extremist wahabbi islam which is replacing the more moderate versions (ie a re-written Koran)

AQ providing a convenient standard for mis-contents to rally around

Reactionary press (particularly certain newspapers which have a long-history of right-wing extremism)

Increasing victim culture amongst certain indigenous groups who now have an obvious target / 'reason' for all their ills.

etc

etc

Overall I'm very worried that our tradition of tolerance and successful integration are being destroyed on a daily basis.

I agree with the earlier poster - it's up to all of those of us that think to try and break down the barriers, the odd smile / comversation takes little effort and will help, little by little to stop this cancerous rot.

Originally posted by RetinoidReceptor
Unfortunately there is no way to fight Radical Islam through the military. It has to be through education. Western culture and ideals brought to the Middle East and anywhere else.

I agree military solution on its own just not possible (nor desirable)

But we cant even question them at home in the West without death threats or outrage..........

Have you looked at any mid east tv or news publication ? You wouldnt believe some of the stuff in there.

Have you any idea what they teach children in schools in the mid east?

You cant even practice your (non muslim) religion in some of these countries.

The penalty of leaving Islam in many of these countries is what?

Look around the world, Sudan, Phillipines, Thailand, Indonesia, Australia, France, Sweden, Denmark, Germany, Switzerland, Kenya,nigeria, Somalia, GB and India for example and what is the recurring theme?

This isnt about being allowed to waer a veil or even about Israel its about a worldview that reminds me very much of Communism.

Now, before the howls of protest, I am not saying all Muslims support this (but a large number want Sharia in the UK) but there is a group out there that do and they want nothing to do with Democracy or freedom of speech.

From the same article as in the OP:

www.thesun.co.uk...
On Wednesday a Muslim-run dairy was firebombed.

Muslims have it far too easy in the UK eh? By making things difficult for muslims there will be less aggitation from muslims???

The UK hasn't had riots on the scale that France and Germany have had because British culture has been able to more or less assimilate and accept muslims. Firebombing muslim businesses or 'rounding them up' ain't going to help.

Originally posted by Nygdan
From the same article as in the OP:

www.thesun.co.uk...
On Wednesday a Muslim-run dairy was firebombed.

Muslims have it far too easy in the UK eh? By making things difficult for muslims there will be less aggitation from muslims???

The UK hasn't had riots on the scale that France and Germany have had because British culture has been able to more or less assimilate and accept muslims. Firebombing muslim businesses or 'rounding them up' ain't going to help.

We have had riots - less than Belgium and France for sure but we have had them.

You quote the "muslim run dairy" story.

There is a little bit more to that than you seem to be implying, if I read you right you think it was just because "whitey" didnt like Muslims in his area?

Originally posted by Strangerous

etc

etc

Overall I'm very worried that our tradition of tolerance and successful integration are being destroyed on a daily basis.

Sadly, I agree. A few years back I was arguing the opposite, but what I see, particularly amongst some of the young people in my northerm home town suggest there is a breakdown occuring. I agree with your reasons, and add a couple more..

- The british "tribal" culture and tendancy for "kicking off" at any given opporuntity... by certain sections of the commuity at least..

- The emergence of a new generation of british born muslims, who aren't religious, don't fit into muslim culture, or "british" culture. Gangs emerge, drugs, violence etc, as with many disaffected groups of young men, but it is tinged with disrespect of women, particularly white women, and stoked with a culture and "history" that allows violence in the name of respect.

Unfortunatly, in everyday life in your average northern town, it's THESE groups of "ex-muslims" who come into conflict with the disaffected, and criminal elments in the WHITE population, who rip each other off over drug deals, who "take" each others council house allocations, mug each other etc... and it's these people that are the targets of the BNP etc, ready to whip up more anger..

Alll in all, not a good recipe..

Originally posted by Mezzanine
You think that Muslims anywhere have it easy?
Muslims in western countries are openly discriminated against and often times treated as a suspected terrorist (and there is no proving otherwise).

The very fact that you're buying into anti Muslim propaganda is what’s really concerning about this thread.

The truth is simple.

Global War on Terrorism is the response to the Muslims war against everyone else.

Not ALL Muslims are terrorist but the majority of terrorist are Muslim.

So therefore everyone who is not Muslim has the right to suspect anyone who is Muslim of being a terrorist.

Simple logic.

I am English and I live in the UK and I can tell you this, the anti Muslim feeling here is almost at fever pitch.

NeoN HaZe.


[edit on 9-10-2006 by Neon Haze]