october 5th mass demos

Originally posted by jsobecky
Thank your lucky stars that you are here in the US where we have a very powerful First Amendment that allows you to protest.

You wouldn't be able to pull it off in Iran or Venezuela. Remember those two idiots trash-talking the US at the UN last week? They don't allow any form of protest in their country.

Such a sweeping statement, so easily dismissed.

As for Venezuela:
July 2006 demonstrations

And where's THIS from?

The incidence of political demonstrations in Venezuela has decreased markedly since the referendum in August 2004. Nevertheless, travelers should be aware that violence, including exchanges of gunfire, has occurred at political demonstrations in the past. Demonstrations tend to occur at or near university campuses, business centers, and gathering places such as public squares and plazas. Marches are relatively frequent and may be planned for busy thoroughfares significantly impacting traffic.

Why, it's from this up-to-date US government site!

Oh dear. On to Iran!

May 2006 - demonstrations rock Teheran Universities

Some 40 police were lightly injured by stone throwing in front of the Tehran University dormitories, Tehran's police chief, General Morteza Talaie, told the official news agency IRNA.

Sources contacted by AFP said the protests were against the changing of university heads and the forced retirement of some professors.

But General Talaie said Tuesday night's unrest was "provoked by 20 or 30 supposed students joined by thugs from outside the university". He said police responded with "tolerance and restraint" and arrested no students.

Please note that this is from a website that advocated "regime change in Iran". Also note that no-one was arrested, despite 40 police being "lightly injured". (I love that phrase - it's as if one were reading a cookery book: "first peel and lightly injure three medium carrots....")

[edit on 4-10-2006 by rich23]

from Rich23
Such a sweeping statement, so easily dismissed.

As for Venezuela:
July 2006 demonstrations

It is one thing to stage a protest supporting Palestinians and Arab communities, and quite another to stage one that condemns Chavez.

A better example is this:

Oct. 22: A group of 14 active duty military leaders speaks on television proposing that due to the violation of the 1961 and 2000 constitutions by President Hugo Chavez, the military should exercise its right of "legitimate disobedience" under article 350 of the Chavez constitution, and also calls for peaceful civil disobedience by the Venezuelan people to demand the restoration of democracy.

Oct. 23: A growing group of military officials and civilian supporters invokes article 350 in the Chavez constitution and declares a Caracas plaza a zone freed from the authoritarian rule of Chavez. Similar demonstrations spread to other cities and towns and continue to the present.

Nov. 16: Chavez, citing labor troubles, orders an army takeover of the police. This Chavez action was contrary to the current constitution. The move results in a number of protests.
www.newsmax.com...

Or this:

All Things Considered, July 3, 2006 · In the lead-up to December's presidential election, Venezuela is deeply divided over the role of private television channels. Venezuelan officials say private channels are overtly political and distort information. Opposition candidates say the government is attempting to stifle freedom of expression. The debate heated up after President Hugo Chavez ordered an investigation into the licenses that allow private television channels to go on the air.
www.npr.org...

How about this?

In early February and late March 2004, National Guard and police officers beat and tortured people detained during and after protests in Caracas and other Venezuelan cities. After demonstrators clashed with National Guard units and Chᶥz supporters, leaving thirteen people dead and more than one hundred wounded, security forces detained more than three hundred civilians. Detainees reported being beaten during and after their arrests with nightsticks, with the flat side of sabers, and with helmets, gunstocks, and other articles. Some reported that their captors hurled tear gas bombs into the closed vehicles in which they were seated, causing extreme distress, near suffocation, and panic, while others described how the powder from tear gas canisters was sprinkled on their faces and eyes, causing burns and skin irritation. Detainees also reported being shocked with electric batons while in custody and defenseless. The alleged abuses appeared to enjoy official approval at some level of command in the forces responsible for them.
hrw.org...

Oh dear. On to Iran!

This one's going to be easy...

Human Rights Violations in Iran



The International Federation of Iranian Refugees (IFIR) would like to draw your attention to some of the more egregious human rights violations perpetrated by the Islamic Republic of Iran; human rights violations, which constitute persecution within the context of the UN Refugee Convention. The systemic and state sponsored nature of many of these abuses has generated the flight of thousands of Iranians who have been forced to leave their homes to seek refuge in a safer country, one in which they are not subject to persecution or the threat thereof. The extreme levels of political repression and state sanctioned violence in Iran have been well documented by many international human rights and refugee rights organisations, including the International Federation of Iranian Refugees, Amnesty International, etc.
:
A. Political Violence
Under the Islamic regime’s regulation regarding political opposition, parties are not allowed to espouse their dissent. Hundreds of political activists have been arrested, tortured and killed and many still linger in prison. A series of killings and 'disappearances' of independent writers, activists and government critics at the end of 1998 ultimately revealed the involvement of state officials in the illegal and violent suppression of dissent. Of particular concern is the relatively new emergence of illegal detention centres throughout the country. According to a recent Human Rights Watch report, these detention facilities are administered by clandestine paramilitary forces and the Pasdaran. The whereabouts of detainees are kept secret and 'it is precisely during such periods of incommunicado detention that individuals are at the greatest risk of being tortured or otherwise pressured into making confessions.'1 This same report notes the increase in public executions and floggings, which reflect the widespread campaign to intimidate and silence advocates of greater political freedom and critics of state policy.

B. Freedom of Expression
An independent press is banned in Iran and journalists are not allowed to write or publish the journals, magazines or newspapers that reflect their dissent. An independent press is prohibited. Over the past year and a half, over fifty newspapers linked to a faction of the regime have been closed down and their editors and reporters have been imprisoned. The conservative judiciary has even referred to government newspapers as 'satanic' and seeking to undermine the Islamic character of the state. There is no meaningful freedom of expression or freedom of the press where voices of dissent are summarily silenced and advocates of free speech are crushed and branded as enemies of the state. Moreover, Iran is a signatory to the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, which it ratified in 1975. Iran is obliged, therefore, by its treaty commitments to provide a full panoply of rights to all citizens without discrimination on such grounds as 'political or other opinion.' The state here is clearly in violation of its internationally recognised obligations and duties and those who challenge this have been subject to the most arbitrary and brutal forms of detention, torture, and long term imprisonment.
www.hambastegi.org...

Oh, Dear!

Originally posted by jsobecky
Thank your lucky stars that you are here in the US where we have a very powerful First Amendment that allows you to protest.

From your posts, it doesn't sound like you're too thrilled about that right here.

I find it interesting that they are the 'yard stick' you use to measure ourselves by.

It's great to see that not all people are not brain washed enough to support this war, kudos to everyone who will join force against the facsist goverment.

If i was in USA i would join this rally my self.

Ummm...NO! What a complete waste of time and aid and comfort to our enemies. Might as well roll over and give up.

Originally posted by simtek 22
Ummm...NO! What a complete waste of time and aid and comfort to our enemies. Might as well roll over and give up.

And just what is wrong with comforting your enemies?

They would support the publics reaction to this facist government surely? If you watch Fox news then I'll excuse you, as maybe you can't tell the difference between the majority and the state, enemy/people etc. I suppose that you think "once an enemy, always an enemy" too? Sometimes I think that people really need to wake up out of denial and do something about of the welders of the cage that is being silently built around them day by day. IMO

Originally posted by loam

Originally posted by jsobecky
Thank your lucky stars that you are here in the US where we have a very powerful First Amendment that allows you to protest.

From your posts, it doesn't sound like you're too thrilled about that right here.

What do you mean, loam? Forgive me, I'm a little slower than usual today.

I find it interesting that they are the 'yard stick' you use to measure ourselves by.

You've got to try harder to follow my pretzel logic, loam.

They've been in the news a lot lately and Chavez has been touted as a great leader and benevolent humanist. That's why I cited them - to remind those who defended him that a) he doesn't practice what he preaches, and b) the US isn't all bad.

It made perfect sense to me at the time..?

Originally posted by jsobecky
Forgive me, I'm a little slower than usual today.
...
It made perfect sense to me at the time..?

Fair enough. It was early for me to.

It's a trivial matter...never mind.

Originally posted by Xeros

And just what is wrong with comforting your enemies?

They would support the publics reaction to this facist government surely? If you watch Fox news then I'll excuse you, as maybe you can't tell the difference between the majority and the state, enemy/people etc. I suppose that you think "once an enemy, always an enemy" too? Sometimes I think that people really need to wake up out of denial and do something about of the welders of the cage that is being silently built around them day by day. IMO

Have you gone and hugged your country's muslum killers today? BTW - If you're English, you have zero say in American politics. Try fixing your own country's problem first.

[edit on 4-10-2006 by simtek 22]

Originally posted by jsobecky
They don't allow any form of protest in their country.

I wasn't trying to paint either Iran or Venezuela as being models of a free society. But the US is certainly not, either. "Free speech zones"? Come off it. And you said ANY form of protest. And you were wrong. I didn't have to search long and hard, and you yourself came up with examples of Chavez allowing anti-Government protest. You're trying to move the goalposts and get away from admitting that you were simply wrong that "ANY form of protest" is not permitted.

Ever since he came to power, the US has been interfering in the internal affairs of Venezuela. Those with even a passing knowledge of Latin American history will know that when that is allowed to reach its inevitable conclusion, the US sets up a "death squad democracy" to ensure that profits from its investments are returned to the US without any interference from the host country in the way of taxes or government regulation. It's all about ensuring the US can suck money and resources out of Latin America. It's NOT about democracy.

The pattern is always the same - interfere more and more (remember the coup attempt in 2002?) and try to get the government to institute repressive measures and spend more on defence. It's working in Venezuela, sadly. If you see the documentary The Revolution Will Not Be Televised, readily available on Google Video, you can see for yourself that the opposition TV stations do indeed distort images and facts to make Chavez' government look bad.

Anyway... you quoted:

A better example is this:

Oct. 22: A group of 14 active duty military leaders speaks on television proposing that due to the violation of the 1961 and 2000 constitutions by President Hugo Chavez, the military should exercise its right of "legitimate disobedience" under article 350 of the Chavez constitution, and also calls for peaceful civil disobedience by the Venezuelan people to demand the restoration of democracy.

So, actually, with each of the examples you post, you're helping to make my point. Dissent IS permitted in Venezuela, even now, after a coup attempt and continuing efforts by the US to destabilize Chavez' government. There are plenty of people around the world who think Bush is a global threat - and there's far more evidence to suggest that this is true than that Chavez is an aggressor. If they started funding opposition groups in the US, how would you feel?

Please please please quote from my post where I said there were no human rights violations in Venezuela or Iran. This is goalpost moving... you said there were no protests allowed, I simply gave easily available evidence to the contrary.

Meanwhile, the US government continues to strengthen its abilities to repress dissent, and you cheer them on. Double standard, or what?

Originally posted by simtek 22

Have you gone and hugged your country's muslum killers today? BTW - If you're English, you have zero say in American politics. Try fixing your own country's problem first.

[edit on 4-10-2006 by simtek 22]

Xenos has the right to protest for he is part of the PLANET and he does not think in terms of divisions.

I am not from usa and trust me i am making sure that everyone knows what i think of the facsist goverment, i will not be silenced.

Originally posted by Xeros
Sometimes I think that people really need to wake up out of denial and do something about of the welders of the cage that is being silently built around them day by day. IMO

You are completely right, this cage is the form of brain washing and it does not exist if you are not brain washed...

people don't let the cage exist in your reality, it's very possible to think for your self and not be conditioned to think certain ways.


Thank you xeros for your post.

Originally posted by rich23
I wasn't trying to paint either Iran or Venezuela as being models of a free society. But the US is certainly not, either. "Free speech zones"? Come off it. And you said ANY form of protest. And you were wrong. I didn't have to search long and hard, and you yourself came up with examples of Chavez allowing anti-Government protest. You're trying to move the goalposts and get away from admitting that you were simply wrong that "ANY form of protest" is not permitted.

There are occasions where free speech zones are warranted.

And Chavez shouldn't have to "allow" protests. It should be in their constitution. His actions are those of a dictator trying to maintain control

And I don't see how what amounts to a pep rally for Palestine equates to a protest against the Venezuelan gov't.

Why didn't you also cite the Nov. 16 action that Chavez took? You are selective in your citings because you choose to defend him and Ahmadinijead while at the same time slamming the US.

That's the difference between us. That's your right,to favor his actions to demean and weaken the US, while wearing blinders to block out his hypocrisy. It's also my right to oppose him and you.

There are too many other anti-US people around for me to spend any more time in this thread arguing with you. I'm outta here.

good luck to all those on the demos today. again, dont forget your cameras and videos and if anybody spots any mainstream media coverage of the demos, please post links here.

Will it really happen the way they say? People walking out of work, people taking to the streets?

I hope so.

Peacfull protest's dont work anymore.
Atleast in violent revolts u can scare bush alittle

Go with passion...I wish you guys all the best!



[edit on 5-10-2006 by Guerilla]

So todays the big day huh? I'm not going to go protest, for a few reasons. One of which being the fact that I have to work. However, I feel protests, and more importantly the protestors, neither share nor promote my political views.

I remember the huge RNC protest, I went there just to check it out. There were a lot of people, a lot of signs, and a lot of slogans but none of which matched how I felt. I know my views may be a little more radical than the college age, spoon fed, armchair political theorists. I don't believe the Federal Government to be a legit government, created and staffed by the American people to serve the American people. These days it's the opposite, we're all property of the federal government and we better do what they say or it's off to Cuba.

Anyway, when I was at the RNC protest there were a lot of signs for small almost special interest groups. I doubt most of them are registered anywhere but they had names like The Young Communist Party, Gays and Lesbians Against Bush, Pampered Irate College Kids Who Know Better than Everyone. Ok, so I made some of those up, but my point is the same, that often times protests are used by certain groups to promote their own agenda.

Just because the protest is against Bush doesn't mean the protestors have any constructive ideas on what to do if we ever kicked Bush out. Some of them, like the ever present pseudo-communists, have an agenda that would only make things worse. I might think about protesting but I wouldn't want to be put on the same government list as some of these people.

Oh well, good luck to those who're protesting. If things turn bad make sure you always have an escape route and don't let yourself get surrounded by police. I'm interested to see how this all turns out and what, if any, media coverage there will be. When does it start?

Good luck protesters!

Yell once "9/11 was an inside job" for me!

to shadowflux,


It's mostly about demonstrating to the WORLD that the american people do not support their own goverment and this notion will give a perception that the own people of the facsist goverment wants things to change.

It must be heard that the people have no say in their lifes and they won't stand for it anymore.

It will show the people in control that their brain washing methods are flawed.

It's a step foward in our collective consciousness, there will be many more of these frequencies.

Well, I'm bored so I did a little research on "The World Can't Wait".

Apparently it was started last year with help from members of the Revolutionary Communist Party. A few of the head members are also members of the clergy even though one of the group's goals is to stop the "theocracy".

Some of their endorsers include Imam Talib Abdur-Rashid of the Mosque of Islamic Brotherhood, Carlos Arango, Director of Casa Aztlan (google Aztlan), Carl Dix of the Revolutionary Communist Party, Rev. Jesse L. Jackson (major groan there), Susan Wicklund an abortion provider (I'm not starting an abortion debate), Puerto Rican Nationalist Party – New York Branch just to name a few.

Here is some more info from their website, I've included my response for good measure:

"YOUR GOVERNMENT puts people in jail on the merest suspicion, refusing them lawyers, and either holding them indefinitely or deporting them in the dead of night."

Who? Obviously not Americans or you wouldn't be protesting today.

"YOUR GOVERNMENT enforces a culture of greed, bigotry, intolerance and ignorance."

Funny, I tend to feel it's the other way around, the US promotes tolerance to a fault.

"YOUR GOVERNMENT suppresses the science that doesn't fit its religious, political and economic agenda, forcing present and future generations to pay a terrible price."

Well, firstly, science has never fit a religious agenda. Secondly, the government seems pretty big on the whole global warming thing, which is also a major agenda of the Green Party, who happens to be a major supporter of this group.

"YOUR GOVERNMENT, on the basis of outrageous lies, is waging a murderous and utterly illegitimate war in Iraq, with other countries in their sights."

Can you honestly call any war a legitimate war? What about the countless countries that would just love to see the enitre US reduced to smoldering ruble?

All in all I think this pretty well demonstrates why I do go to protests like these, they're full of people seeking to promote their own agenda and sometimes those agendas are no better than Bush's. I hardly feel that this young organisation is going to make any difference. I don't think anyone is going to succede in kicking Bush out for another two years. The majority of Americans still feel pretty safe in the notion that Bush only gets two terms. Now, if Bush were to weasle in a third term it would be a different story all together.