The legality of cannabis.

Originally posted by chissler
Why is it the law to wear your seatbelt?

Sometimes the decisions we make are not always the best for us. Sometimes its better to have someone else make the decision for you. I'm not naive enough to think the government always has our best intentions at heart, but some drugs need to remain illegal.

If drugs were legalized, you would have a skyrocket in the amount of death related drugs. People would be OD'ing left and right for awhile. It would finally even out and then you could try to manage the substance, but alot of work would have to be done before anything could happen.

Teenagers are to easily influenced. Some of the drugs today can change your life with one hit. One hit of '___', Heroin, Crack could have you addicted for life. Are we willing to allow our youth to make that decision on their own? The fact the drug is illegal has already made the decision for many, that could be the determining factor that saves their life.

Well first off if it were legal then it would be regulated much better to make sure any of those drugs never get into teenagers hands. I doubt many drug dealers say "you must be 18, where's your ID?".

Also, as I've already said if it were legal then the profits could be used by the government to create expansive campaigns to create awareness as to the effects of the drugs, as well as much better centres to get people off the drugs. The money made available by the profits would be astronomical compared to the funds currently made available to create these schemes, and I doubt users for any of the drugs would increase that much. If anyone wants any of these drugs they're really not that hard to get hold of.

If after all that people still decide to ruin their lives or OD then screw 'em, it's not like every opportunity hasn't been made available to them.

[edit on 24-9-2006 by John Nada]

chissler... to give you alittle understanding as to why I cannot trust any of the govt. sponsored science I would like to illustrate the history of how pot became illegal in the first place.

timeline

1927 - New York outlaws cannabis.

1928, Sept 28th - The Dangerous Drugs Act 1925 becomes law and cannabis is made illegal in Britain.

1930s - "New" decorticators invented to mechanise the hemp harvest.

1930s - 1200 hash-bars in New York.

1930s - Andrew Mellon is Secretary of Treasury. (Mellon was also owner of Gulf Oil).

1930s - Hearst's sensationalist anti-marijuana stories leads to outcry for cannabis prohibition throughout the US.

1937 - By 1937, 46 of the 48 states had oulawed cannabis.

1931 - The Federal Bureau of Narcotics is formed with Anslinger appointed as its head.

1934 - Anslinger refers to 'ginger-coloured 'n-word's' in official FBN circulars.

1936 - The FBN is under pressure from states in the south west to create federal legislation to ban cannabis.

1937 - Shortly before the Marijuana Tax Act, Commissioner Harry J. Anslinger writes: "How many murders, suicides, robberies, criminal assaults, hold-ups, burglaries, and deeds of maniacal insanity it [cannabis] causes each year, especially among the young, can only be conjectured." [Quoted in John Kaplan, *Marijuana*, p. 92]

1937 - DuPont patents process for making plastics from oil and coal as well as a new bleaching process for making paper from wood pulp. DuPont advises its share holders to invest in its new petrochemical industry claiming that the government would force the acceptance of these new industries.

1937, April 14th - The Marijuana Transfer Tax Bill is introduced directly to the house Ways and Means Committee. Anslinger testifies to congress that 'marijuana' is the most violence-causing drug known to man. Objections by the American Medical Association (who only found out that 'marijuana' was cannabis two days before the hearing) and the National Oil Seed Institute are rejected.

1937, December - Marijuana Transfer Tax Act (HR 6385) is passed imposing severe restrictions on its industrial and medical use as well as making the flowering tops a narcotic subject to strict control. Objections from the bird seed industry result in special exemption for specially treated seeds.

1938, February - US magazine 'Popular Mechanics' declares 'Hemp - the New Billion Dollar Crop'. (The article had been written before the Tax Act had passed)

1938 - LaGuardia, the Mayor of New York commissions a report to investigate the use of cannabis.

1941 - Cannabis dropped from the American Pharmacopoeia.

1941 - Popular Mechanics Magazine reveal details of Henry Ford's plastic car made using hemp and fueled from hemp. Henry Ford continues to illegally grow hemp for some years after the federal ban, hoping to become independent of the petroleum industry.

1943 - 'Hemp for Victory' program which lasts until 1945 urges farmers to grow hemp for the US war effort.

1943 - A similar programme was also initiated in Germany.

1943 - Colonel J.M. Phalen, editor of the _Military Surgeon_, declares in an editorial entitled "The Marijuana Bugaboo": "The smoking of the leaves, flowers, and seeds of Cannibis sativa is no more harmful than the smoking of tobacco.... It is hoped that no witch hunt will be instituted in the military service over a problem that does not exist." [Lindensmith, _The Addict and the Law_, p234]

1944 - The LaGuardia Marijuana Report refutes claims made by Hearst and Anslinger and reports that cannabis causes no violence at all and cites other positive results. Anslinger reponds by denouncing LaGuardia and threatens doctors with prison sentences if they dare carry out independent research on cannabis.

1945 - Newsweek reports that over 100,000 Americans use cannabis.

1948 - Anslinger now declares that using cannabis causes the user to become peaceful and pacifist. He also claims that communists would use cannabis to weaken America's will to fight.

1951 - According to United Nations estimates, there are approximately 200 million marijuana users in the world, the major places being India, Egypt, North Africa, Mexico, and the United States. [Jock Young, _The Drug Takers_, p. 11]

source: bright.net

this is one of the most accurate timelines I have yet to encounter... It is because of the lies generated that persist today that conribute to the ongoing illegality of marijuana. and this is why I cannot endorse ANY govt. sponsored science. This is not necc a conspiracy.. more like out right hypocrisy.. remember at the end of the day.. it is not the govt. job to protect us from ourselves; protect us from one another, sure; but NOT from ourselves. I will not have a govt. treat me as an ignorant child that is uncapable of making informed decisions on my own. they have no right and no place in governing my body.. nor anyone elses for that matter.

Its not because they care about our well being.. its IS because of big business and racism... How can we let this continue? How is this freedom of the people to pursue life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness? This arguement of them protecting us goes right out the window when you take five minutes to see how much crap they put in our foods... and when they can let people smoke cigs.. and get drunk.

BTW..this govt. "science" has flipflopped so many time over the last fifty odd years that they dont even know anymore what it does and doesnt do. So that being the case I think their "credability" is more than destroyed in this matter. Combine that with the dismal outcome of the overall war on drugs and it is pointless to keep this dead dog propped up.. they fist said that it causes violence and makes people insane... then they say it makes us wimps and prone to communism... When they start out with lies and perpetuate it with complete reversal...lies... then how can they be taken at their face value? simple; they cannot. You also have to understand that it wasnt until the last couple decades that independent science has even had a chance to conduct studies free of govt. sponsorship.

The govt. sponsored science totally conflicted in that: they have every reason to say that it is bad and thats why they keep it illegal...how would it benefit them to have the science come back and say things like what has surfaced recently with unhindered science... ei... no link to cancer.. and regrowing brain cells. I cannot just cannot trust someone that has every motive to alter the findings for their own gain.
I would much rather put my scientific stock in independent findings.. free of govt. funding or supervision. Sorry but this govt. has done nothing to earn my trust in this issue.

we may end up having to agree to disagree on the "science" sponsored by the govt... but at least we both are under the understanding that there definately needs to be something done to change our current course.. as the war on drugs(regarding pot) has and always will be a failure. Again, not everything is a conspiracy... but there is alot of BS that isnt a conspiracy that is still true... and this is one of them.

I will leave you with this quote for today...from one of our wisest leaders(IMO)

"prohibition fails, in that, it attempts to legislate a man's appetite and makes crimes out of which that are not crimes"- Abraham Lincoln

see you guys tomorrow...again...lol

I was doing some more searching(I just cant seem to get away from ATS tonight...Im addicted to ATS. ) And I found a couple things that may help to illustrate: Why govt. funded and sponsored science cannot be trusted as the Authority on the truth... on this particular subject.

Firstly, In 1999 the Clinton Administration finally lessened restrictions on Medical Marijuana research. They even gave them what is probably some of the most potent pot in the world(Official Us Govt. weed). Anyway, here is the article:

May 22, 1999

U.S. Eases Curb on Medical Marijuana Research

By SHERYL GAY STOLBERG

WASHINGTON -- Despite intense interest in the medical benefits of marijuana, few scientists are studying it, because the government has always required that such work be paid for by scarce grant money from the National Institutes of Health.

That changed Friday when the Clinton administration eased the requirement, announcing that it would sell government-grown marijuana to privately-funded scientists.

source: anamalous- images.com/news

So you see; it wasnt until 1999 that the govt ever relinquished any control over the information pertaining to marijuana, since 1937; when it first became Federal policy and law.

to illustrate what I mean when I say: to pay attention to who is funding the research. From the same article:

And even then, Abrams had to mask his true research interest; although he wanted to examine the effects of marijuana on the weight loss associated with AIDS, he pitched the study as one that would look at the potentially toxic interactions between marijuana and standard AIDS medications. "We designed a study that would appeal to the group of people funding the grant," he said.

It was actually due to the research by:
From the same article:

Friday's decision comes two months after an exhaustive study by the Institute of Medicine, a branch of the National Academy of Sciences, concluded that the active ingredients in marijuana, called cannabinoids, appear useful for treating pain, nausea and the severe weight loss associated with AIDS. Two years ago, a review by NIH officials reached a similar conclusion.

of course it goes on to say that it is the cannibinoids; not smoked pot; is the potential medical use:

"We have had several pretty distinguished groups now say that cannabinoids, not smoked marijuana, may have some real potential medical usage," said Dr. Steven Gust, special assistant to the director of the National Institute on Drug Abuse. "This is a first step towards ultimately developing purified forms of cannabinoids that may be FDA-approvable."

And herein lies the heart of this "consipracy".. FDA approvable.. thats right this way.. they can keep slap aprice tag on it and strictly regulate it for the Big Pharma so they can have control the market. you notice it says also: not smoked; but they fail to mention eaten. This, to me, illustraes quite well where the motive lies for the govt(Big Pharma controlled mind you; not to mention Dupont, and Budweiser.. and the like) to "Alter" and "distort" facts pertaining to marijuana. Why is that the motive you may ask? Simply this: If one can get the cannibinoids from MJ by eating it and anyone can grow it... then where is the profits for the Big Pharma companies? There is none... hence you have motive to keep control over this extremely profitable "cash crop".

This last part of the Article sums it up pretty well:

Advocates for legalizing marijuana as medicine had both praise and criticism for Friday's decision. "It is a tiny step forward, but far too tiny," said Ethan Nadelmann, director of the Lindesmith Center, which backed initiatives in California and Arizona to make marijuana legal for medical use. "It's an implicit acknowledgement that the government has blocked research into medical marijuana for explicitly political reasons for the last two decades."

And from one of the Best sources on Marijuana: NORML

Your Government Is Lying To You (Again) About Marijuana
Truth Report 2005
ONDCP's open letter (PDF)
Join the Discussion



ALLEGATION #1
“There is a serious drug problem in this country.”

TRUTH
America does have a serious drug problem and our public policy needs to better address this issue with health and science-based educational programs, and by providing more accessible treatment to those who are drug-dependent. Unfortunately, the bulk of America’s anti-drug efforts and priorities remain fixated on arresting and jailing drug consumers – particularly recreational marijuana smokers. 1

source: NORML.org

(*NOTE- While I only highlighted the first part of this NORML article...I cannot stress enough; the importance of; reading that whole article... asit has more facts than you can shake a stick at.)
Why is 46% of all drug arrests for recreational pot use; you may ask? because prison labour is a huge business enterprise. Why pay people to work when you can lock them up and make them work for free(or pathetic wages).... supported by taxpayer money.
Let me introduce you to CCA; Corrections Corporation of America. And the wonderful world of one of the most corrupt Ideas in this nations history: "privatized prisons". Which; like any 'business', needs to have 'clientel'. Think of it like a Hotel; If you will. Like any profitable hotel it has to keep its "beds" full. Marijuana arrests being 46% of all drug arrests fills this void nicely. With 700,000 people involved in the prison system..can you see where this is going?

let me show you what I mean by prison labor being a profitable career..

July 15, 2006 - WatchingTheWatchers.org (US Web)
American Prison Labor Blossoms As We Criticize Chinese Slave Labor
By Lee Russ, Section OpEd

The U.S. has often taken China and other repressive regimes to task for using cheap/free slave labor or prison labor. Right wing sites, such as NewsMax do so frequently.

Any guesses as to which other, closer-to-home country, has a very large and still growing prison labor industry?

That's right. Us. Or U.S. if you like extra periods.

The federal government has theFederal Prison Industries (FPI) which is:

"...a wholly-owned government corporation established in 1934, under an Act of Congress and an Executive Order which is now incorporated in Chapter 307, Section 4121-4128, Title 18, United States Code. FPI was set up to provide paid employment to inmates, primarily in the manufacture of products for use by the federal government. In 1978, FPI adopted the trade name UNICOR, under which it does most of its business. The products made at these institutions are produced in strict conformance with Federal or other applicable specifications."

Source: november.org

Wow... big business... wanna shop? for prison made goods? okie dokie.. lets do that

UNICOR

lets have a click shall we?

If you notice on the right side of the main page,, youll se that you can buy:

Shop Office Furniture Stores
Shop Clothing & Textiles Store
Shop Industrial Products Store
Order Status
Quick Ship

wow you can even have it shipped to you.

Are we starting to see why the govt. has 'Motive' to "alter" the science on pot yet?

thank you for your time,
TONE23

[edit on 9/24/2006 by TONE23]

ok mr chissler

yes SMOKING anything will be bad for you,, but why then do they even still make
CIGARETTES/CIGARS?? (Because there's too much money involved)
and the ones who make the laws PUT MONEY BEFORE PEOPLES LIVES!!!
and have investments in tobacco/health care industry/treatment centers,...


HOWEVER,

there is such a thing called a "vaporizer"
it heats up the chemicals in the marijuana into a vapor form
and you inhale the vapors,hence NO SMOKE, NO LUNG DAMAGE!

if it is not "smoked" it would be one of the BEST, most VERSITILE, CHEAP,
MULTI-PURPOSE drugs IN THE WORLD!

it would ELIMINATE AT LEAST 10 well known, widely used drugs MANUFACTURED TODAY

and is the SOLE REASON it is still illegal
because it GROWS for FREE, the multi billion$ drug companies would
loose all of their TRILLIONS of dollars for their OVERPRICED drugs
that dont work very well and keep you coming back for more
and give you "side effects" that make you need even more of their products!

and its true that the first few times , or if you smoke too much at any one time
you will forget a few things, and you will be really stoned!!

but after you get used to it (after 2-3 times in a day )
it does NOT make you incredibly sleepy or dopey anymore

the WORST that happens is you get really hungry for "munchies"
and want to "take a quick nap" afterwards there are NO ILL EFFECTS
you wake up REFRESHED, not even drowsy, or feeling like crap like after HALF OF A SLEEPING PILL and 10 hours of sleep!!
or a hangover like after drinking!

and in FACT if used frequently:
the anorexic people will gain weight
the insomniacs can sleep (with no headaches or feeling like crap in the morning)
stomach convultions disappear (being sick/ throwing up)
focusing your mind in a room full of 2 year olds becomes quite easy
after the worst day at work, it will calm you down and relax you within a few SECONDS... and you still have FULL FUNCTIONAL CAPACITY
NOBODY would need ADHD medicine,
and NOBODY would commit suicide because of the withdraws (there ARE NONE FROM POT)

girrls normally giggle a lot
but UNLIKE alcohol they DO NOT PASS OUT AND GET THEMSELVES RAPED !

now,
you can either listen to the government scientists
who are PAID to tell you its bad for you (no one is allowed to check for medical capabilities of pot) by law they have to use the government reports from 50 years ago that say EXACTLY what the government wants us to hear

or you can have WORD OF MOUTH FACTS
from the 50+ million people who use it regularly (at least once a week)
and have had NO PROBLEMS with it (other than being illegal)

would you rather buy a good remedy, that you hear about from youfriends/neighbors
or
buy one from a company that tests them on RATS, and THINK it might help you,
and gives you "headaches/constipation/diarrhea/strokes/heartattacks/failed kidneys/
highblood pressure/blurred vision/memory loss/abdominal pain/

alcohol poisoning can kill you within seconds (even 1st time drinkers)
even only after a "few" drinks
alcohol has gotten millions (YES MILLIONS) of college girls RAPED and MOLESTED while passed out ( or AWAKE ) and sometimes by MORE THAN ONE drunk guys
alcohol makes people forget what happened after they "had a few too many drinks"
alcohol has ruined millions of lives directly and indirectly
such as battered wives , bar fights , ....DIVORCE,.....,say things you would never say
do things you would never do if you were NOT DRINKING ALCOHOL!!!

ever see hippies FIGHT?
seriously,, EVER have you seen hippies FIGHT? why would they want to?
WHAT would make them do it?

the difference between alcohol is this:
alcohol turns normal people into LOUD-MOUTH A-HOLES ,some times extremely violent, having blackouts, liver damage,cant WALK much less DRIVE

pot turns normal people into peaceful "help each other people" (very BAD for WAR)

but, if you're still undecided.........

go and smoke 1 small hit of it
it will make you a believer!!


this is too important a statement and should be repeated below::

EVER SEE HIPPIES FIGHT?

if marijuana was legalized, and people could get "untainted quality" from
the liquor stores

your kids would NOT be inhaling "starting fluid" from spray cans
would NOT be accepting and using "any drug they CAN FIND"
and most people would not need "ANY OTHER DRUG" to catch a buzz

yes the crime rates will go down,
because you can buy pot from the store

they would NOT SEE THE DEALER who ALSO has crack,pcp,heroin......

and for anyone who is religious:
will bring you closer to your god than ever before
"every tree and plant on this earth has been placed here for you to consume"
GENESIS:

the cops would be free to go after HARDER DRUG criminals (violent)

HALF of the prison population could be WORKING
instead of US paying for them to sit there for 5 years+ behind bars
because they got caught smoking it

your streets would be safer because half of the drug dealers
WOULD NOT BE NEEDED ANYMORE


do you remember the 1980's or are you too young

the war on drugs started by ronald reagan
the pot smokers were starting to unite and vote to legalize pot
so what better way to put a stop to it than lock up all of them
then they will not have enough people to vote (cannot vote if you committed a felony
right?

so now the prisons were so overpopulated with NON-VIOLENT pot smokers
so they LET THOUSANDS OF VIOLENT CRIMINALS OUT OF JAIL
let them out many years early,, or just threw out their case

earned the name of revolving door prisons

all to make room for someone caught smoking pot

and our government did this to US

how many??
how many dollars were spent to house theese NON-VIOLENT PEACE LOVING PEOPLE?
how many homes/families lives were destroyed because it is illegal?

how many children were taken from their families for smoking pot?
how many people are now dead because the violent rapists/murderers were"let out"?

a criminal convicted of violently raping and murdering YOUNG CHILDREN
spends LESS TIME IN JAIL than someone smoking pot!!

how many INNOCENT people have died in drug raids ON THE WRONG HOUSE??

how many extremely ill cancer patients, living their last days,
trying to have a better quality of live, DIED IN JAIL because the
ONLY MEDICINE that provides relief, is illegal??

how many cops, YES COPS, believe pot should be legalized??

how many people have died because the cops were out busting people smoking pot
instead of tracking down violent criminals???

I partake - and to those who say to me, "You just want to get high," I point out that marijuana has been shown, amongst a great deal of positive medical benefit, to aleviate stress. And then I say, "What you call 'getting high,' I call reducing stress. Same thing."

I could go on and on about this mismaligned plant, but most of it has been brought up here already.

yeah right...

So if marijuana was legal nobody would commit suicide anymore? Nobody with ADHD would need medicine anymore? I know a child with a severe case of ADHD, and is not medicated for it. His parents stay on top of it and try to counsell him as much as possible. Hell the first few months I knew him I didn't even know he had it, it was only from his mother I found out about it.

Why do you feel so obligated to prove the effects of Marijuana to me?

I know and understand the effects. I have seen and felt the effects many of times.

As I have already stated, I'm not saying that MJ should remain illegal. However, Devils Advocate is a role I enjoy and it's making for a good discussion isn't it?

You really could of saved yourself alot of time, next time give me the benefit of the doubt and think maybe all of this common sence is something they are already aware of.

Alcohol and Tobacco are legal and have serious health risks, yeah we know. Problem is it does NOTHING for your argument.

Maaaaaa, Why can't I go to the party? chissler's mom is letting him go, Why can't I go??

That never worked in the past so why would it would today?

Spend alittle time on defending the drug rather than trashing tobacco and alcohol. Government is never going to change its stance on those two substances, too much of a profit. People who want to be an advocate for the legalization of Marijuana need to focus on the benefits and lack of risks in the drug.

chissler,

If you get the chance could you read my last post above and tell me what you think of my hypotheosis? I am curious to know what you think on it.
you devils advocate, you....

Originally posted by chissler
yeah right...

So if marijuana was legal nobody would commit suicide anymore? Nobody with ADHD would need medicine anymore?

Uh... So with Prozac and Zoloft, being legal as they are, Nobody commits suicide anymore? This is less than a logical counter. (Being a devil's devil's advocate. [grin])

Originally posted by optimus fett

how can a plant that does so much good for society be banned across the world?

ive never seen it do 'so much good'....sure i agree it can assist in relief from artharitic conditions and some stress like you mentioned..

but....

i have friends that have been turned into recks by the stuff; granted after many years of participation in large quantatties, paranoia, emotional imbalance, short term memory loss, respiratory problems to name only a few of the side effects.

As long as they can measure wether a persons being taking it at the road side then fine..legalize it and put up big penaltys like drink driving for offenders of miss use.

Id like to see all those scally 'penny drug dealers' put out of buisness by making it freely available in the shops.

dont see your point. these people you speak of probably have personality disorders which are associated with these symptoms. Marijuana has never given me any of these problems. you obviously have no business on this thread because you have no idea what your talking about.

people should be held accountable for their own personalities before the blame shifts to marijuana.

Tone, what can I say? You have a strong opinion backed with solid facts. Tough to argue that. Although I love to try.

When we have such a controversial issue with documentation to support both sides of the coin, your left in the grey. I will continue to believe that has Marijuana has some health risks, but I have always accepted its medicinal purposes.

Legal or Illegal, both sides have Pro's and Con's.

I think it comes down to this though.

Are people going to continue to use the drug?

In a word, Yes.

So why not make the strides to ensure that the drug can be safe as possible. Enforce strict regulations on the substance and regulate its distributions. Set laws for possession of it and how it can be used. People should not beable to use it in public or be under the influence when operating any sort of machinery. But for personal use in your own home, What the hell?

I've agreed with what everyone has had to say so far, because 95% of this thread has been right. I can argue why its not a good idea, you can argue why it is, and the only thing to get hurt is our keyboards.

My only problems are when people start screaming that its good for you, or it enhances your state of life. It can be good for you and it can enhance a state of life but it does not for everyone.



[edit on 25-9-2006 by chissler]

Originally posted by chissler
...

Are people going to continue to use the drug?

In a word, Yes.

So why not make the strides to ensure that the drug can be safe as possible. Enforce strict regulations on the substance and regulate its distributions. Set laws for possession of it and how it can be used. People should not beable to use it in public or be under the influence when operating any sort of machinery. But for personal use in your own home, What the hell?

...

[edit on 25-9-2006 by chissler]

Well put man. It's like a lot of other things too, we should not have people decide what we can put in ourselves. We're allowed to put alcohol and tobacco, which is medically proven to do far worse than marijuana, in our bodies yet we can't put psychoactives, depressants, and happymakers (i couldn't think of a better word, sorry) in our bodies? It's hypocritical at best.



And on another note, I've learned a lot about debating just from participating and watching this thread grow.

Originally posted by TheAnt
And on another note, I've learned a lot about debating just from participating and watching this thread grow.

Glad to hear that.

Do not get discouraged in the future if things don't go smoothly. This isn't always the way on ATS. It's members like TONE23 that make things go nice. Strong and open-minded members make discussions like this come easy.

Thank you for your input.

original quote by:yeah right
do you remember the 1980's or are you too young

the war on drugs started by ronald reagan
the pot smokers were starting to unite and vote to legalize pot
so what better way to put a stop to it than lock up all of them
then they will not have enough people to vote (cannot vote if you committed a felony
right?

so now the prisons were so overpopulated with NON-VIOLENT pot smokers
so they LET THOUSANDS OF VIOLENT CRIMINALS OUT OF JAIL
let them out many years early,, or just threw out their case

Ahh the eightees... those were my days "comin up" Born in 73 I remember the war on drugs picking up in earnest during this decade.

Lets take a look at some of those specific stats:
from: drugpolicy.org

Drug Prohibition & the U.S. Prison System

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

An estimated 1,550,000 adults were behind bars in the United States on June 30, 1995, over triple the number from 1980. (1) In 1992, the United States had a rate of incarceration comparable to that of Russia, over twice the rate of Singapore, five times that of England, and more than 10 times the rate of the Netherlands.

The increasing rate of incarceration of drug prohibition violators, together with the increased number of prohibition arrests, have fueled the massive increase in U.S. correctional populations over the past sixteen years. Women, African-Americans, and Hispanics are disproportionately affected.

Source: drugpolicy.org

But the eightees were just the biginning... BTW.. by no coincidence.. the company Corrections Corporation of America(CCA) that I mentioned in my last big post.... Guess what year they opned their doors?

1982 baby... what a co-inky dink....

It never got better in the 90's even with Willy having admimtted to smoking pot the levels kept rising until in 1995 the prison population was triple what it was in 1980. Now 11 years later and it is even higher still... We have surpassed every nation on the planet as the biggest incarcerator in the world.... Boy isnt it great being number 1...
This is due mainly to our drug policy... obviously.

From the same web page:

Inmates in Federal Prisons

YEAR TOTAL DRUG % DRUG
1980 24,363 6,120 25.1%
1982 29,673 7,920 26.7%
1984 34,263 10,110 29.5%
1986 44,408 16,340 36.8%
1988 49,928 22,270 44.6%
1990 65,526 35,060 53.5%
1992 80,259 47,270 58.9%
1994 95,034 58,260 61.3%
%Increase 290% 850%

Just look at those numbers climb...

original quote by: chissler
When we have such a controversial issue with documentation to support both sides of the coin, your left in the grey. I will continue to believe that has Marijuana has some health risks, but I have always accepted its medicinal purposes.

Yes with a controversial issue such as this there is no shortage of documentation. And there is a "grey" area. Thats when intelligent dicerning people(when faced with this obstacle) must make a choice as to Which documentation can be trusted. That being the case The majority of documentation(until recently) has always been either from the govt. or sponsored and funded by the govt. Now that Independent science is finally getting a crack at it.. we start to immediately see a stark contrast to the "original " science.
I have to admit though,the govt. has come along way from its origins.. and I quote Henry J (racist) Anslinger when he said: "Ginger colored 'n-word's". That was thier science back then.. and he said it made people many times more likely to commit violent crimes.. such as murder, rape, armed robbery. But then the same guy comes out in the 50's and says that pot causes people to become "pacifists" and that it would make us vulnerable to attack from the communists. I mean really, is this the govt. that you trust ANY of their documentation on this subject on? Maybe; maybe not... I will leave that for you to decide.

original quote by: chissler
Legal or Illegal, both sides have Pro's and Con's.

yes they do... but at least we know... after 70 years which way has more cons.... the way it is now.

original quote by:chissler
I think it comes down to this though.

Are people going to continue to use the drug?

In a word, Yes.

So why not make the strides to ensure that the drug can be safe as possible. Enforce strict regulations on the substance and regulate its distributions. Set laws for possession of it and how it can be used. People should not beable to use it in public or be under the influence when operating any sort of machinery. But for personal use in your own home, What the hell?

Absolutely... And to add to the govt. revenue they could issue "growers" liscences.. both for personal... and commercial liscences.. have the A.L.E. run it like they do with alcohol... Strict enforcement on the roads.

Like alcohol There needs to be a test that illustrates if you are under the influence currently; or, if it is just residuals thjat linger in the system (post high). Obviously if you have to go out to buy it.. transporting it(in motor vehicles would require the consumer to place it in the trunk for transport. If found in the cabin of the vehicle there would be a fine.

And in our homes... Abso-frickin-loot-ly.... with out a doubt 110%... no make that 1000000000%.... And this last part, my good people... IS ALL IM ASKING FROM MY GOVT... leave us alone in our homes........... especially when it comes to this.

original quote by: chissler
My only problems are when people start screaming that its good for you, or it enhances your state of life. It can be good for you and it can enhance a state of life but it does not for everyone.

You are dead right...
For the exceptions.. to the rule... it may enhance a great many aspects; whether that be physical, psychological, emotional, medicinal.
But for the others is is not going to enhance these things.

People that post on ATS... are usually above the bar so I can see why the "positive" side of the arguement would be more popular than the "negative" aspect.

original quote by: chissler
It's members like TONE23 that make things go nice. Strong and open-minded members make discussions like this come easy.

Im not always sure why... but I just care .. I just care....

Its funny how the pot threads don't last long because all pro-legalization info is obviously smarter than the nay sayers'. and they know it... so in the end it ends up being a bunch of pro-pot folks preaching to the choir.


Set 'em up and knock 'em down.


this arguement was won along time ago, but we just have to not lose patience and keep fighting the good fight until it is legal

Keep up the outstanding work Tone, you are the man!

Tone,

With your clearly well researched knowledge on this subject and the points you have raised, I am similarly amazed you missed this...

LEAP - Law Enforcement Against Prohibition

Read this site if you never saw it before. Some of the content inally convinced me that legalization was the way to go.

The final nail in the prohibition coffin for me was this article. Its quite long but worth it, very interesting stuff.
END PROHIBITION NOW


Have a look around.

Here's an interesting interview, but there's a lot here. Example...

The War on The War on Drugs

"Well, the war on drugs was really responsible for about 99% of all the things that we attribute to the, quote, 'drug problem.' Which truly should be attributed to drug prohibition because it is prohibition that causes the sale of drugs to become an underground market and the fact that it's illegal artificially inflates the values of these virtually products by up to 17,000 percent increase between where they grown, mainly, in third world countries, like as you know, Afghanistan, Colombia, and where they're sold in Los Angeles, or New York City, or maybe right here in Dunedin. 17,000 percent increase - that creates an obscene profit motive, making many people willing to kill each other in the streets in order to control their little end of the market."

Mission Statement...

Founded on March 16, 2002, LEAP is made up of current and former members of law enforcement who believe the existing drug policies have failed in their intended goals of addressing the problems of crime, drug abuse, addiction, juvenile drug use, stopping the flow of illegal drugs into this country and the internal sale and use of illegal drugs. By fighting a war on drugs the government has increased the problems of society and made them far worse. A system of regulation rather than prohibition is a less harmful, more ethical and a more effective public policy.

The mission of LEAP is to reduce the multitude of unintended harmful consequences resulting from fighting the war on drugs and to lessen the incidence of death, disease, crime, and addiction by ultimately ending drug prohibition.

Source



TONE23. You must have seen this before so consider it a memory jog. To Chissler. I see the points you are making but like religion, it's difficult to understand without the personal experience.

This statement alone, coming from narcotics police officers of many years, says it all.

The stated goals of current U.S.drug policy -- reducing crime, drug addiction, and juvenile drug use -- have not been achieved, even after nearly four decades of a policy of "war on drugs". This policy, fueled by over a trillion of our tax dollars has had little or no effect on the levels of drug addiction among our fellow citizens, but has instead resulted in a tremendous increase in crime and in the numbers of Americans in our prisons and jails. With 4.6% of the world's population, America today has 22.5% of the worlds prisoners. But, after all that time, after all the destroyed lives and after all the wasted resources, prohibited drugs today are cheaper, stronger, and easier to get than they were thirty-five years ago at the beginning of the so-called "war on drugs".

[edit on 28/9/06 by Prote]

Thanks for that Prote...

No, I never have heard of LEAP before...But I am glad I have now. Thanks.
There are no better "experts" that could back this up. Cops that have been in the trenches(like semperfortis).

But will it change? Will they succeed where NORML(and a handful of other groups) has not?

The numbers are glaringly obvious to even the most uninformed person.. let alone our legislatures.

There are a number of groups that are working to end the drug war. If they were able to combine their strengths I believe we could see the end of this horrible policy.

Groups like:

NORML---National Organization for the Reform of Marijuana Laws
november.org
Drug Reform Coordination Network
LEAP---Law Enforcement Against Prohibition
MPP-Marijuana Policy Project
Cato Institute

There are more but these are some of the bigger ones. The problem of course is: every group that is for legalization/decriminalization there is a group(or ten) that are against the end of prohibition. But the thing that the prohibitionists fail to understand is that we have already tried it their way.. for 70 years! So maybe its time to try the other avanue.

Another study: for those that say Pot makes people depressed:

NORML has the article:

Study Finds No Casual Link Between Marijuana Use And Depression

September 28, 2006 - Baltimore, MD, USA



Baltimore, MD: Marijuana use by adults is not a statistically significant predictor of depression, according to the results of an ongoing longitudinal study to be published in the October issue of the journal Addiction.

Investigators at John Hopkins University in Baltimore and at the Bloomberg School of Public Health in Santa Monica assessed the association between self-reported marijuana use and current depression in 8,759 adults (age range 29-37 years) over a 17-year period. Investigators concluded, "After adjusting carefully for baseline differences between adults who subsequently use marijuana and those who abstain, the significant associations that are initially present between ongoing marijuana use and depression are substantially reduced, if not eliminated."

They added, "The findings reported in this paper suggest that the associations observed between marijuana use and subsequent depression status may be attributable not to continued marijuana use, per se, but to third (common) factors associated with both the decision to use marijuana and to depression."

source: NORML

Another govt. lie being shown in all its glory....again...and again.... and.....(suprise)...again.

Tone,

Do you have any links or are aware of how the hemp business was brushed under the carpet. The conspiracy surrounding chemical businesses, but also clothing and paper. I saw you outlined timelines around the late 20's and 30's, and you touched on this but I will try and pull out the actual timeline and what specifically happened, I feel some of the reports I have read, would really add to your case.

Only it wasnt a conspiracy (because they didn't hide it much), they just went right ahead and did it. Hemp is known as the miracle plant, it produces eco friendly products, thousands of uses and it threatened other key industries.

Hemp produce 4 times the amount of paper per acre than trees do. They grow in less than a season, not the 50 years trees take. Clothing made from this is the most, strurdy, environment friendly, long lasting etc.

The reason they had to shut it all down is that the industrial revolution made some powerful people very rich. Hemp production threatened these already existing industries and the cabal needed to protect them.

Then came the demonising campaign, prohibition et al, and thats where we are, even after 70 years.

It really was the combined forces of Dupont family, Andrew Mellon, Henry Anslinger.

Here is an article that shows just how invovled they ha ve been and continue to be. It doesnt directly talk about Dupont and their crusade against the Hemp plant. But it illustrates just why they did do it though(read between a couple lines)

DuPont "The Miracles of Science?"

DuPont moves to control and manipulate seed

On October 1st 1999 Dupont bought the worlds largest seed company Pioneer Hi-bred for $7.7 billion [1]. Dupont now has 18% of the entire global seed market, and a 42% share of the North American hybrid corn seed market, US biggest crop [2]

This gives Dupont control of the world's largest proprietary seed bank and a global seeds sales force.

E.I. du Pont de Nemours, began manufacturing explosives in 1802, making DuPont one of the oldest corporations in the world. By the turn of the century du Pont de Nemours were America's biggest armaments manufacturer
The du Pont family, who still own the controlling interest of the company today, became one of the richest and most powerful families in the US.

In the 1910's and 1920's duPont scientists came up with a whole range of new polluting manufacturing processes based on petro-chemicals. The company became, and still remains, the world's leading producer of artificial fibres [3], patenting nylon and rayon in the 1930's, and expanding into Europe and Asia.

There is hardly a single chemical toxin in which Du Pont has not played a major role.

source: primalseeds.org

Baing that this company was already around for over 100 years when the 30's came around; they had quite a bit of influence over our political leaders of the time.


The other main lobbyist for Hemp/Marijuana illegalization was Andrew Mellon. He was into everything from logging...to banking.. to oil(Gulf Oil) extremely powerful influence in his time. He was also the Secretary of the treasury.

Secretary Mellon demonstrated financial ability early in life by starting a successful lumber business at the age of 17. He joined his father's banking firm, T. Mellon & Sons, two years later and had the ownership of the bank transferred to him in 1882 at the age of 27. In 1889, he helped organize Union Trust Company and Union Savings Bank of Pittsburgh. He also branched out from banking into industrial activities, and built a great personal fortune from oil, steel, shipbuilding, and construction. In 1913 along with his brother, Richard, he established a memorial to his father, the Mellon Institute of Industrial Research.
source:

These are the Big Two that helped fuel Henry Anslinger's amibitious rise to power.
The why is obvious... Both Dupont and Mellon had timber businesses and knew that hemp would threaten them. Alos with Duponts blooming petrochemicals and Mellons Oil business it just lends that mouch more motive. Then you factor in racism and an ambitious beurocrap(t).. and Presto!... new Drug War.

There isnt too much more to elaborate for this but I will dig up anything else I can.

One more site that may help to illustrate Drug policy history is Druglibrary.org

It has a fairly comprehensive listing of policies that shaped our current state in the WOD.