For all the Athiests.........

you know what the difference between you and esoteric teacher is? Its that he is still open minded and is debatable, while you aren't.

You are completely set foot in your beliefs and anyone who challanges that is wrong. Because of that, there is no reason to address your post the way I have addressed ET's posts.

[edit on 19-11-2006 by grimreaper797]

Originally posted by dominicus
Again your long reply post is to me unfounded. If your morals come from within yourself based on the information you have around you, then that means that you have no moral foundations at all. You simply go by what-ever information you have around you. So if you were raised with thieves or killers, that would be your information around you. If you were in Germany in the 40's, a good percentage says you'd be a Natzi.

There are a pair of Siamese twins. They share a heart but will both die unless separated. However, if we do separate, one will die.

An individual is dying of cancer, they have been taking morphine for pain for years. If they are given the required dose of morphine to truly alleviate the pain they may die from overdose as tolerance is a problem over time.

There is an unmarried woman, she is violently raped by another man. They are discovered and he is arrested. The man suggests paying money to the father of the girl and then they will marry.

Surrogate mothers, transplanting organs and facial skin, IVF...

You are the gate-keeper of heaven, you have Ghandi and a psychopathic multiple child-killing pedophile who accepted christ before death. Who do you let in?

What does the absolute morality of the bible tell us to do?

Also, hitler was a 'christian' (he certainly was no atheist) and so were many nazis. They could easily find support from Luther's ideas.

[edit on 19-11-2006 by melatonin]

melatonin,
I see your points. Hitler being a Christian was more like hitler being an occultist as he drew from many cult activities and this is documented. He was a melting pot of ideas.
______
Reaper,
My mind is always open to alternative views and theories. The spiritual enlightenment that I live in and invite you to share in is just a scratch of the surface of how deep in the rabbit hole one wants to go. I have yet to see a solid argument disproving the divinity of Christ and what is written in the Bible. While I do tend to lean towards a "universalist" view at times, it is only universalist in the similarities in the mystic approach of all religions, a current theory I am looking into as we speak.

Again it goes to show, your judgement of me vs. my acceotance of you. The only thing I judge you in is the fact that you know nothing of the Spiritual enlightenment realms. If you did, you would have never made any of the comments you made, as there are others on this site that have tasted of what I have tasted and are in complete agreement with my words, even though we had minor differences.

Prove me wrong in any way and I will leave this board and never speak another word. If you cannot prove me wrong, perhaps you can do what I offer to do.

Reaper,
My mind is always open to alternative views and theories. The spiritual enlightenment that I live in and invite you to share in is just a scratch of the surface of how deep in the rabbit hole one wants to go. I have yet to see a solid argument disproving the divinity of Christ and what is written in the Bible. While I do tend to lean towards a "universalist" view at times, it is only universalist in the similarities in the mystic approach of all religions, a current theory I am looking into as we speak.

Again it goes to show, your judgement of me vs. my acceotance of you. The only thing I judge you in is the fact that you know nothing of the Spiritual enlightenment realms. If you did, you would have never made any of the comments you made, as there are others on this site that have tasted of what I have tasted and are in complete agreement with my words, even though we had minor differences.

Prove me wrong in any way and I will leave this board and never speak another word. If you cannot prove me wrong, perhaps you can do what I offer to do.

Guess what, I can't prove you wrong, because there is no possible way to prove it true or false. How can you prove that something doesn't exist?

It's on you to prove to me that it does exist. If a book written by some people is your best effort, then you can have your "enlightenment", because its founded on other peoples words. Ill keep my foundations on my own words and my own understanding, rather then some one else word. Im not going to take their word for it and that they are credible enough to believe, with no proof of god.

If you had your visions and stuff, good for you. Too bad you cannot prove it to me, and you cannot prove to me there is or isn't a god. When you can prove existance, come back and tell me. Until then, your no more enlightened then the next guy.

Me, Ill keep with my current understandings, because its brought me a long way. Alot further then yours has for you apparently, because your lack of questioning. You just believe your right, and if I dont believe you Im wrong. Go ahead with that atittude, but if you think people will view you as enlightened, think again.

I believe that in your case, even if God was to come down and prove himself to exist, you would be so pissed off about the ordeal that you would continue to choose your limited ways. But then again that's an educated assumption based on your words.

My POINT is that if you seek with all your heart, God will reveal himself to you as he has to me and millions of others. I too once walked the ignorant paths of athiesm. I would definately like to know how you think all of existence came to be my genuis friend. Again until you walk the path and see for yourself, you just don't know. If you won't open certan doors then of course you are not going to see inside. The best moment for you and all other athiests will be the death bed scene as is inevitable for all of us, only to wake up on the other side and be surprised that there is another side.

Regardless, a new age is dawning. One where the numbers of athiests in existance will be zero. It's just a matter of time and this my smart friend, is a fact.

If a well respected doctor being in practice for so many years told you that you have a certain condition that you have no idea about, you take his word for it and follow his advice (even though you have very little understanding.). If your car breaks down you take it to some-one who spent most of their lives mastering mechanics truting that thisperson will do the job even though you have limited understanding of whats going on. But......... Some-one who spent their life in prayer having made break-throughs and traveling spiritual realms tells you that such a thing is real and automatically it rubs you the wrong way because the God idea is too messed up for you to realize????? Strange isn't it?

Scientists are teleporting, Nasa's working on anti-gravity vehicles, quantumm physicists are working on windows into other dimensions, but the idea of God and the Bible being true is too far out for you? Who's the one that sounds unenlightened in this case?(pun intended)

This is not for the atheists, this is at the atheists.

I was expecting some demonstration of some evidence we'd all missed that would make us question what we believe. Instead all I see is someone continually trying to foist his views on people who sincerely believe something else.

I think the whole tone of the OP's stance is condescending and seems to start from the premise that we need saving from ourselves.

Atheism is a belief and it's as strongly held as people who have a faith believe in their faith. We're not lesser people, we're not fallen, we just happen to not swallow the stuff you believe in.

If you can ever find evidence then please post it (a message from 'god' in 300m letters written on jupiter etc) until then please don't presume that by posting what you believe will change our beliefs.

Originally posted by dominicus
I believe that in your case, even if God was to come down and prove himself to exist, you would be so pissed off about the ordeal that you would continue to choose your limited ways. But then again that's an educated assumption based on your words.

Quite the assumption. One that made an ass out of u, while me is still lookin alright thankfully.

If god came down Id say OK god exists, then go on with my life, because it doesn't matter for me whether or not he exists, you didn't get that.

My POINT is that if you seek with all your heart, God will reveal himself to you as he has to me and millions of others.

which would be an utter waste of time, because after he did, I would live the same way I did before hand.

I too once walked the ignorant paths of athiesm.

you say "I too" Like Im an athiest, which Im not.

I would definately like to know how you think all of existence came to be my genuis friend.

I don't know, and that is the best answer you will find anytime soon. Difference between you and me is Im not afraid to say that some things we just haven't figured out yet. You are so anxious to know why that you jump to your own conclusions to say you know. Thats how curious you are, how impatient you are. You cannot wait to logically try every answer, that you must make whatever you believe takes the least amount of proof, while cant be disproved.

God take literally NO proof to say it exists, and there is no way to disprove it.

Again until you walk the path and see for yourself, you just don't know. If you won't open certan doors then of course you are not going to see inside. The best moment for you and all other athiests will be the death bed scene as is inevitable for all of us, only to wake up on the other side and be surprised that there is another side.

man you really are ignorant. You just assume everything. You assume more then you can even see. You are so blind to your own arrogance and ignorance that I think you are projecting on me earlier.

Even if the proof came along god didn't exist, you'd be so angry you were wrong, you would go right on believing him anyway.

Regardless, a new age is dawning. One where the numbers of athiests in existance will be zero. It's just a matter of time and this my smart friend, is a fact.

sure, whatever you want to believe. no proof, thats fine, go ahead believing.

If a well respected doctor being in practice for so many years told you that you have a certain condition that you have no idea about, you take his word for it and follow his advice (even though you have very little understanding.). If your car breaks down you take it to some-one who spent most of their lives mastering mechanics truting that thisperson will do the job even though you have limited understanding of whats going on. But......... Some-one who spent their life in prayer having made break-throughs and traveling spiritual realms tells you that such a thing is real and automatically it rubs you the wrong way because the God idea is too messed up for you to realize????? Strange isn't it?

hahaha Im tempted to give you a WATS for the worst analogy ever created.

You take his advice because he has a degree in something that has been tested, scienctifically proven, and guess what, YOU REALIZE YOU ARE STILL TAKING A CHANCE. I don't go to the doctor and immediately say, "he must be right" I hope that he is, because he is a professional, or some one more experienced. I take his advice because I need to in order to become healthy. I take a mechanics word and let him fix it because I need to drive to work. Now tell me why I need to take the word of a prayer guy whos "traveled to spirtual realms"? Why do I need to take a chance in believing his word? I take the chance because I have to in order to get my car or get health. I have NO REASON to take the chance in taking a prayer guys word for it.

Scientists are teleporting, Nasa's working on anti-gravity vehicles, quantumm physicists are working on windows into other dimensions, but the idea of God and the Bible being true is too far out for you? Who's the one that sounds unenlightened in this case?(pun intended)

Ive read a great deal of science, I know what they are doing.
Find the rules to the universe is rather different then making up a reason as to why it exists.

At the end it doesn't matter what you say because you are holding the thoughts and beliefs that you are supposed to hold and believe, regardless of whether others offer to break those molds or not. Perhaps your thought constraints are broken, but I know that you haven't tasted of the spirtual realms again because if you did, you would have never spoken a single word the way you did.

Every single thing you will do in your life and every other person will do in theirs is already pre-known, but not pre-known by us. That is the reason why I accept and love you even though you react so harshly to me when the reason I am here is to explain to you and make you the offer to describe to you just how a person can reach this spiritual enlightenment. Shun it all you want, but the truth is that this reality exists and their are quite a few people in this world who experience these things through the Holy Spirit.

Basically you are rejecting something that is more precious that all the money and gold in the universe!!!!!! Something that is avaiable to you and eveyone else. An experience where God will show himself to you and you will be changed forever!!!!

One of my first thoughts when being Blessed with Spiritual enlightenment was; how will anybody believe me when they will all think of me as crazy for speaking such things. Besides the Bible says that the Enlightenment of the Holy Spirit is foolishness to the natural man, but priceless to the spiritual man. So I know that I can boldly ascribe you to the label of natural man because of the fact that you attribute what I say as foolishness. That's the difference. Those with even an inkling of spiritual sense hear me out and respect my experience, whereas those that know nothing of these things shun it all as foolishness according to whatever personality dilemma they are dealing with, not that you have a dilemma, but why is that your so quick to speculate when you haven't genuinely tried it. A mere spectator, window shopper, outsider looking in through foggy glass

The best thing for you to do is to try it for yourself in a genuine manner. If it doesn't work for you then criticize away, but until then how does your judgement of reaching spiritual enlightenment through the Bible hold any merit/weight if you haven't tried it????

My friend, no matter what you say I can only resond to you in Love and compassion. I accept you and your thoughts exactly as they are and I can comprehend what you say by putting myself in your shoes and thinking the way you think. Even though I can never agree with some things that you hold to be true, even if it cost me my life, I still Love you and would share with you anything that I have if you needed it. Please understand there is a spiritual reality that would knock your socks off as it did mine and I am forever changed by it. Everyone that knew me in my life saw this complete transformation and it is the motivating force of why I debate all agnostics and athiests. If you try this for yourself, God will show himself to you in more ways than one. If you don't try it then you are speculator basing your whole frame of mind of what others have said, taught, or written. What I speak of is beyond ego death which breaks all the molds previously held and frees the mind towards God.

Either your right and I'm wrong, or I'm right and your wrong. But I will tell you that I would bet my life on it that what I speak of in context of the Bible, God being real, and tasting of spiritual realms and powers is the purest forms of truth in all of my being. Would you be willing to bet your life that what you believe in is right? In the end I love you because I know a thing or two about your relation to the grand scheme of thigs.

I respond with a simple nope.

You believe what you say is right, I believe it doesnt matter either way. Whether your right or not to me is irrelevent, so I can't be wrong. Im not really right because Im not claiming anything.

All I am saying is that I am being me. If there is a god, this is what he intended me to be, because this is who I was at birth, if there is no god, then Im doing just fine how I am.

Ok, yes I agree with you on "you being you and me being me," part, but if you are doing just fine the way you are if there isn't a God, are you doing fine just the way you are if there is a God? My answer would be yes as I suspect your answer would also be yes.

Still if you were to find out God is real, would you continue to be the way you are or would you change in accordance to wanting to know more about this God and perhaps interact in some sort of way?

If whether i'm right or not is irrelevent to you, and you saying that by that statement you can't be wrong, then can't your irrelavancy be wrong or right? If your not really right because you don't claiming anything, then you are abiding by something similar to zen belief systems, which is a way of thought and life that is practice by a large group of people primarliy in the orient. Zen masters vary in all categories of athiests, thiests, and agnostics.

I think we are getting somewhere finally with this last post. It is more in the direction that I originally would want to take it. However if me and my beliefs are really irrelavant to you, then why did you respond the way you responded orginally? Irrelavancy wouldn't have responded at all !!!!!!

Again my friend, I'm saying that if you remove yourself from this irrelavancy and seek out with all your heart if God is there, then you will get to a place that is beyond logic and reason, and more important. I'm speaking of transcendence. This is a state so tangible and yet there are no words to justifiably describe the things that go on in this framework, yet it is by logic and reasn hat you realize that you have this transcendent faculty, but reason and logic just don't work the same "there."

I think your buddy Einstein said it best when he wrote a letter to queen elizabesth of belgium in 1932;

"As a human being one has been endowed with intelligence to be able to see clearly how utterly inadequate that intelligence is when confronted with what exists. "

this advice should always be within the woodworks when considering the being of God.

Originally posted by dominicus
melatonin,
I see your points. Hitler being a Christian was more like hitler being an occultist as he drew from many cult activities and this is documented. He was a melting pot of ideas.

Glad to hear it. Hope you also saw the one hypothetical scenario that your god did give clear guidance on. Lucky we can ignore biblical morals when need be and use our own moral tendencies.

Yeah, I agree that hitler was a complex dude, but he was no atheist and did mention Luther a bit (although I put christian in quotes, as he wasn't what I would think as a real christian).

[edit on 20-11-2006 by melatonin]

Originally posted by dominicus
I think your buddy Einstein said it best when he wrote a letter to queen elizabesth of belgium in 1932;

"As a human being one has been endowed with intelligence to be able to see clearly how utterly inadequate that intelligence is when confronted with what exists. "

this advice should always be within the woodworks when considering the being of God.

As I said before Einstein was an atheist so wouldnt have cared for your being of god.

Also where does it state that if you are religious then you have the right to decide what is morally or ethically acceptable? What makes you so qualified to tell us that we are wrong when your beliefs are based on a mythical being with no real supporting evidence other than the subjective?? As I have stated you have no real evidence other than your conviction that what you have experienced is from god.


G

Originally posted by dominicus
Ok, yes I agree with you on "you being you and me being me," part, but if you are doing just fine the way you are if there isn't a God, are you doing fine just the way you are if there is a God? My answer would be yes as I suspect your answer would also be yes.

Still if you were to find out God is real, would you continue to be the way you are or would you change in accordance to wanting to know more about this God and perhaps interact in some sort of way?

If whether i'm right or not is irrelevent to you, and you saying that by that statement you can't be wrong, then can't your irrelavancy be wrong or right? If your not really right because you don't claiming anything, then you are abiding by something similar to zen belief systems, which is a way of thought and life that is practice by a large group of people primarliy in the orient. Zen masters vary in all categories of athiests, thiests, and agnostics.

I think we are getting somewhere finally with this last post. It is more in the direction that I originally would want to take it. However if me and my beliefs are really irrelavant to you, then why did you respond the way you responded orginally? Irrelavancy wouldn't have responded at all !!!!!!

Again my friend, I'm saying that if you remove yourself from this irrelavancy and seek out with all your heart if God is there, then you will get to a place that is beyond logic and reason, and more important. I'm speaking of transcendence. This is a state so tangible and yet there are no words to justifiably describe the things that go on in this framework, yet it is by logic and reasn hat you realize that you have this transcendent faculty, but reason and logic just don't work the same "there."

I think your buddy Einstein said it best when he wrote a letter to queen elizabesth of belgium in 1932;

"As a human being one has been endowed with intelligence to be able to see clearly how utterly inadequate that intelligence is when confronted with what exists. "

this advice should always be within the woodworks when considering the being of God.

tryin to present you with the same steps I eventually got there in. I didnt wake up one day and say "hey you know what, I just realized that it really is irrevelevent." no it ltook some 2 years of slowly changing beliefs.

I would continue to do exactly what I am doing now, god or no god. Not because of denial but because I believe what I'm doing is exactly what I was meant to be doing, and that being the person I was born to be.

if there is a god I would only be stronger in my belief of not following the bible. why? because it means that there was a god who intended me to be a certain person. why would I change who I am and what I do because a book said so? If god made me, why did he make me the person I am unless its who he wanted me to be.

I'm not perfect, but I was intentionally made with certain imperfections to lead me to a certain place which is where I am suppose to be.

if there isnt a god, we'll then I'm doing what I feel is right, thus have no regrets. How much better can a life be led then a one of no regret?

My question to you isn't why do you believe in god, but why do you need him so bad? for me, my will power and logic is enough to get me through any situation until I die, from there I'll let it be what it is.

[edit on 20-11-2006 by grimreaper797]

Melatonin,
So where do our moral tendencies come from? Somewhere deep within ourselves or outside of ourselves based on our environment?

___
Shiluhud,
I retract my original statement that I have subjective proof, and extend that to be objective because as I have PM'ed you about, when God blessed me with spiritual enlightenment, for 6 months after that, anyone who was within 10-15 feet me also got a taste of what I was going through by means of the Holy Spirit. So I would tell certain people what happened to me, most of which didn't believe until they started getting hit by the waves of Enlightenment that I had. It was objective to dozens of people.

Einstein was more agnostic because he did state that there is some kind of intelligence that put all of this together. But it doesn't matter, because even if he was an athiest what would that have to do with his statement except to lead back to the question of whether there is a God or not. If you re-read the question it is so blatantly pointing at something in the beyond factor.

Also, where did I ever say that religious people only have the right to say what is ethically and morally correct? Christ a Mythical being perhaps to you in this frame of time, but you will see one day that truth in Christ exists.

It's pretty evident that our morals and ethics come from predominantly religious backgrounds. Prove it otherwise.

_____
Reaper,
Let's say for the sake of this debate that God exists. How would you know that God made you to be the way you are now? What if you are just a product of your environment and not yet the man that God intended you to be? God making you doesn't mean that he made you with your beliefs. Those beliefs are your free-will and would have nothing to do with God choosing those beliefs for you.

Everyone has imperfections that lead to certain places in life, but who's to say that place is right? How do you know that where you are in life right now, (based on your imperfections, desires, and beliefs) is the right place?

No regrets? Everyone has regrets because everyone has made mistakes in the past because everyone has imperfections. Getting rid of all regrets won't change the fact that you did wrong in the past. It would simply be you trying a state of being without this frame of mind. If anything getting rid of all regrets will be a way for you to be able to justify doing regrettable things in the future will it not? Regret is used for learning and bulding yourself up, but if you completely get rid of it..... who knows.

Will power and logic only get you so far. There is a state of being way beyond these things and this state makes will power and logic look like little tiny ants. There are many times in life where will power and logic is not ennough. In my example I used will power and Logic to question God and to see for myself if he's there and if he's real. So after researching practically every prominant path to God, and getting no-where with 4 years of Buddhism, I logically came to the conclusion that the Bible made the most sense because I couldn't find any holes in it when I debated Christians (they had every aspect covered)...

...so being that in the Bible Chirst says the most important thing is to Love God with all your heart, mind, body , and soul. I used sheer will power and Logic as best I could to do this for 14 months, and then 1 day I was overtaken by the Spirit of God and now have access to frames of being/mind that are a thousand times better than logic, reason, will power. Transcendance is greater than any of these limited systems of regular logic and reason, yet we can use these to get "there." I've literally seen physical reality/objects be warped and manipulated by others who are in this Enlightenment with several witnesses around. Those of that are "there" have seen a place without time where it ceases to exist. I don't see how irrelavancy will get anyone "there".

By the way, as far as morals go........ I've used logic, reason, and rational to come to conclusions that morals are 2 part, at least to me.

1st Part,
is that I would rather abide by morals that are brought forth by means of divine revelation being that these are higher and more pure dimensions then the one that we live in. For example knowing that the higher realms operate on transcendence and other higher and better faculties beyond our earthly (logic, reason, rational) I would rather put my money on those then what an average Joe would say. Now I can say this because I know these realities are true, but I also understand how an athiest/agnostic would not agree with the above.

2nd Part,
Morals are deeply instilled within us by God. It is something that I would go as far as to say over 80% of people (maybe even more) feel deep inside within their being. Now the other 20% or so, I would say have found ways to drown out those instilled moral intuitions, or try hard to defeat them with alternative views.

The big proof always comes in the moral/ethical gray areas where we don't necessarily know ourselves whether our particular action in a given particular moral gray area is right or wrong, until after the decision is made.....we intuitively get a regret or a correct feeling afterwards. So where does this intuitive instilled moral reaction during gray areas come from?

Originally posted by dominicus

Shiluhud,
I retract my original statement that I have subjective proof, and extend that to be objective because as I have PM'ed you about, when God blessed me with spiritual enlightenment, for 6 months after that, anyone who was within 10-15 feet me also got a taste of what I was going through by means of the Holy Spirit. So I would tell certain people what happened to me, most of which didn't believe until they started getting hit by the waves of Enlightenment that I had. It was objective to dozens of people.

We have only your word for this and even so it is still subjective that it was god that was the cause.

Einstein was more agnostic because he did state that there is some kind of intelligence that put all of this together. But it doesn't matter, because even if he was an athiest what would that have to do with his statement except to lead back to the question of whether there is a God or not. If you re-read the question it is so blatantly pointing at something in the beyond factor.

Einstein was not talking about a supernatural being but more to the power of nature and the universe. The god they talk of is more akin to a deist god, just not a supernatural one.

Also, where did I ever say that religious people only have the right to say what is ethically and morally correct? Christ a Mythical being perhaps to you in this frame of time, but you will see one day that truth in Christ exists.
It's pretty evident that our morals and ethics come from predominantly religious backgrounds. Prove it otherwise.

No, it is pretty evident that those morals and ethics were forced upon most people from religion. Morals and ethics change from religion to religion, country to country, culture to culture and age to age. You cannot state that the way you live is predominately christian as their morals and ethics were already in place.
Jesus is a myth - definition of myth (merriam webster) 3. a person or thing having only an imaginary or unverifiable existence. There is no evidence for the existence of jesus - only your unwavering conviction. (note I didnt say christ was a myth as there have been many christs and messiahs)

And I did notice that you still think you have the authority to state matter of factly that I'm wrong and your right about the 'truth in christ'. Where is the unwritten rule that religious people are always right and have the authority to tell people that they are wrong in their beliefs when they base your beliefs on faith in mythical beings.


G

Originally posted by dominicus
Melatonin,
So where do our moral tendencies come from? Somewhere deep within ourselves or outside of ourselves based on our environment?

Morals themselves are socially mediated. Morals change within each society and over time.

As for moral tendencies, here's a little true story...

There was a normal man, a lawful family man. He started sexually abusing children. He had never done such things before and sought medical advice. On medical assessment, he had a tumour. The tumour was removed, the man behaved normally. He described the need to commit this behaviour as like an uncontrollable force, it was a drive, a motivation that he could not deny. Years later he started getting this motivation again, he went for a medical check up and they found that remnants of the tumour had grown and were affecting the same region of the brain.

Also, we have Phineas Gage. A hard working railway-building foreman from the late 19th century. He again was a normal man but he suffered an incredible accident where a tamping rod exploded and went right through his skull, out the other side, landing many yards away. Amazingly, he survived. He recovered but was never the same man - 'Gage was no longer Gage' - he lost his motivation and became a social leper losing social mores and being socially inappropriate - cursing and sexually deviant. He was intelligent as always. The damage was frontal lobe located, many others who have this damage suffer the same fate (I've met a few). Psychopaths also have frontal lobe deficits, they have no regard for social convention, lack empathy, commit crimes with passion.

I'm sure you can see where I think our moral tendencies come from. If you want to see biological evolution as god-driven, then that's cool, your choice. But we can see basic morals and empathy in other social animals, it is not just humans who show such behaviour.

[edit on 21-11-2006 by melatonin]

All I can say is if you have regrets you don't understand the value of life and every experience in it.

Shiluhud,
What esle would be the casue of me reaching this spiritual enlightenment, when it happened at the same time that I was building my Love towards God at such a rate that I never knew doing such a thing was possible? I don't see or can find no eveidence that it was anything other than this, being that all my effort was in seeking out God, and then "it" happened.

Another point I wanted to mention is that there's no way the majority of thiests in the world could be "tricked" into following Christ. Based on the World Almanac, there are over 2 billion Christians world-wide. I don't see how 2 Billion people can blindly follow something that you think is a myth. The fact is that many Christians taste different amounts of this spiritual enlightenment I speak of as there are different levels and amounts of the experience. The things that Christ did while he was here, including ressurection, where so huge that the World was changed by these events and never the same since in a positive way. Let's see you start a myth that changes the World, where time has to restart on all world calendars and you have over 2 billion followers. Better yet show me another myth that did the same. Even the scientific does not refute his existance, only what he has done while he was here.
.....
Einstein was not talking about God in that statement, but he might as well be. Basically he's saying that our intelligence should be enough to realize that our intelligence can't fathom the mysteries of existence itself. Since we can't fathom existence itself, how can we fathom God? Check point for agnostics, but yet I will say again that spiritual enlightenment enables you to have additional spiritual intelligence to fathom God and the Biblicial precepts guide you to this arena.
......
About morals, I meant to say that the core morals are universal amongst most dominant religious views. Do not kill another, steal, cheat, lie, etc, etc.

I feel that I have authority to say that your view that God does not exist is wrong, because I have tasted of Spiritual Enlightenment along with countless others, in which the person my situation is given additional "tools" to fathom God, or better yet come face to face with God in one of many ways. Againt this is not arrogance that I am implying, but Love and compassion and me wishing of how much I would give both my hands and feet away (perhaps even sacrifice myself) for even one of you to experience this.
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Melatonin,
yes I have heard of the Phineas Gage story and I hear your point. While there are many fine examples and backup to support evolution, there also various holes and the answerable question to evolutions of what brought about existance, as it cannot be a chance occurance (odds are astronomical on this end). I will say that from recent research in the past 3 months, I wouldn't necessarily rule out a combination of intelligent design with evolution. The thing is, if evolution does/did occur then it was/is part of God's plan all along. Regardless, yes the brain is the center of our acts, feelings, emotions, etc. But I still argue that there are other things like intuition that come from the soul. I would like to see if there were any brain scan studies on inuition, etc.
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Reaper,
I understand the value of life and experience and I love it. Regret is part of a fine balanced nutritious breakfast. It is a tool used to build yourself up and learn from. Get rid of it and how else will you learn? Even if you think you don't regret a decision, if you thought about how it would have been better if you chose otherwise, then Is till consider that regret, so I say you can't get rid of it. Even killers that don't regret their murders, still regret being late to work or upsetting their wives, or what have you.

Originally posted by dominicus
Melatonin,
yes I have heard of the Phineas Gage story and I hear your point. While there are many fine examples and backup to support evolution, there also various holes and the answerable question to evolutions of what brought about existance, as it cannot be a chance occurance (odds are astronomical on this end). I will say that from recent research in the past 3 months, I wouldn't necessarily rule out a combination of intelligent design with evolution. The thing is, if evolution does/did occur then it was/is part of God's plan all along. Regardless, yes the brain is the center of our acts, feelings, emotions, etc. But I still argue that there are other things like intuition that come from the soul. I would like to see if there were any brain scan studies on inuition, etc.

I don't think there is any research that shows ID to have any scientific validity. Well it could be a chance (more correctly improbable) occurence - e.g. if the odds of life developing from chemicals is 1 in a billion and there are a billion planets with suitable environments, then the probability is that it will happen on one of those planets

The neuroscience of intuition is a very recent area of study, Matt Lieberman is the leader in this area. If you're interested you can find his articles here...

www.scn.ucla.edu...

These two are the most relevant;

1. Evidence-Based and Intuition-Based Self-Knowledge: An fMRI Study.
By Lieberman, Matthew D.; Jarcho, Johanna M.; Satpute, Ajay B.
Journal of Personality and Social Psychology. 87(4), Oct 2004, 421-435.
Citation and Abstract | Expanded Record | View Article (HTML) | View Article (PDF)

2. Intuition: A social cognitive neuroscience approach.
By Lieberman, Matthew D.
Psychological Bulletin. 126(1), Jan 2000, 109-137.
Citation and Abstract | Expanded Record | View Article (HTML) | View Article (PDF)

Social Neuroscience is a young science, but it is slowly coming together and is the area that I study and research (but currently prejudice related)

[edit on 22-11-2006 by melatonin]