Jews Vs Muslims

posted by JudahMaccabbi

DonWhite, That is your problem - You cannot separate Naziism (which was MUCH WORST than fascism) from fascism. Facism is just an autocratic (oligocratic would fit too) and highly enthnocentric (racist, religious supremist, jingoist is all the same).

ERGO, ISLAMOFASCIST.

You need to be a delegate to the 2008 GOP convention. You'll find it full of fellow travelers. Full of right thinking peple.






[edit on 9/4/2006 by donwhite]

Dear JudahMaccabbi,

Your responses in general are filled up with so much of poppycock, that I feel I must respond. You have been hoodwinked if you think life is that simple. May be you need to spend less time reading garbage like the kind of nonsense pushed on Ali Sina’s website and start looking into Zionism’s true historical roots, to fully understand what's going on with the Islamic nations today?

Originally posted by JudahMaccabbi

Facism is just an autocratic (oligocratic would fit too) and highly enthnocentric (racist, religious supremist, jingoist is all the same).

Isn't Zionism also racist against not only Jewish people (particularly the Sephardic orthodox) but all other goy? And your understanding seems to forget about the most important part of fascism called "Collectivism", collectivism being a political ideology which is found in all those "isms".

ERGO, ISLAMOFASCIST.

To be a fascist, you need only look at the Cabal in Washington, London and Israel. Islamic nations today resemble very little of the Monarchy or 'Theocracy' of yesterday and you can thank the lunatics who have funded both sides of every war since the 12’Th century for helping:

A) Destroy the Ottoman Empire
B) Installing puppet regimes in the Middle East (who are often hated by the Muslim populations)

Now first of all, Islamic nations never came up with the idea of 'Fractional Reserve Banking' which destroys the economies of nations. Islamic nations are opposed to USEARY and want to use only gold-backed currency. Inflation is prohibited in Islamic nations!

These Islamic regimes, many of them not even a resemblance of the true Ottoman Empire, have many issues today but they are anything BUT Fascists! Washington comes up with nonsense terms like this and just love to throw it into the masses hoping you will use the term but not use your brain.

If Islam cannot tolerate a Jewish presence in the middle east (HAMAS, Islamic Jihad, Hezbullah, Al-qaida, Iran), cannot tolerate a Christian presence in the middle east (Al-qaida) and hates the west then those individuals and their supporters are facsists.

You are walking the fine line of ignorance and indecency, by claiming all evil rests upon the religion of Islam.

So who created HAMAS? Was it Allah and Prophet Mohammed, or MOSSAD?

So who created bombs and first started using them? Was it Allah and Prophet Mohammed also?

Who created Hezbollah? Was it Allah and Prophet Mohammed, or was it a response to oppression and politics.

Who allowed the Jewish people to live in their communities (like family) and were very religiously tolerant to the Jewish people during the Spanish Inquisition, the Muslims, or the Jesuits who were burning the Jews alive?

So who created Al-Qaeda? Al-CIA or Allah and Prophet Mohammed?


Dear friend,

Are you really prepared to go thru the path of blatantly attacking another person’s faith (Islam) and trying to connect it to geo-politics? If so, how would you like it if we all were to do the exact same thing to the Jewish faith and connect it to all the terrible policies of Israel?

Now as a Jew, would you prefer me to drop a few quotes from the Talmud about what is said regarding Christians and Jesus Christ and then use this method to explain how the Israel militray murdered US sailors on the USS Liberty? In doing so, would this be fair to all the innocent Jewish people who love God, love freedom, love their families? Yet, look what you are doing by claiming Islam is responsible for all this mess!

How would you like it if I take some time and prove that Israel is the USA’s true enemy and even attacked the USS Liberty? How would you like it if I provide a ton of anti-Christian quotes in the Talmud and then go on FURTHER to place next to it, the actual quotes of MARTIN LUTHER (founder of the Lutheran church) to let the people see why the Jewish people were always persecuted without a homeland? I'm telling you that The Koran never called Jesus a 'Son of a Whore'.
It never dare say anything like that, but even still I have many Jewish friends.

Can you not find it within yourself to understand that what fighting goes on today is a result of geo-political Collectivism and not ISLAM?

foxnews is running 24/7 about how the terror-rays will kill them and their familys if they dont do what the government tells them and give up their rights.
but they have nothing to fear from jaws. and if you think you do youre an anti-sharkite.

Originally posted by scion1985
foxnews is running 24/7 about how the terror-rays will kill them and their familys if they dont do what the government tells them and give up their rights.
but they have nothing to fear from jaws. and if you think you do youre an anti-sharkite.

Yes, Fox News never ceases with Fear-Pushing. But, no it must be Islams fault!

Just like in Israel, you cannot go by more than 20 minutes without the pictures of evil "Palestinians", blowing everything up. Meanwhile, the Palestinians (the true Semites) only want their power back so they can have electricty for hospitals and clean water from pumps. They only want to be able to come home, without waiting hours and days in line like cattle, but instead every day, they lose their homes by phony permits created by IM domains - exactly what they are now doing with farmers, small business and private land owners in America.

But of course, Zionism is wonderful! It only removed the Good Jewish people away from their European brothers and segregated them into a terrorist nation, which is nothing to do with spiritual Israel. If only these little ones understood that Marx was no atheist but a religious fanatic and black occultist! If only they understood the evil plan as it was laid out in Vienna in the 1800's which allowed Switzerland to become a neutral nation for Venetian banksters to hide their stolen loot; for no matter how many wars they fund on both sides, they still have a safe haven in Switzerland.

This is why I recommend buying gold and silver. In the next 3-5 years, 80% of all American people will lose between 70-100% of everything they have ever owned. Even as they see America falling apart, they shall not see what is behind the surface and I fear, it will soon be the end of the Republic of America.

After the coming Novemeber elections, the neo-zionist plan to have a massive terrorist attack on US soil. They will instute the draft, and martial law. They will tear up whatever is still left of the Blessed US Constitution which our forefathers (like true patriots have fought for) and when the economy collaspes, I imagine the neo-zionists will just turn around and blame the Saudi's for collapsing the US dollar by them ceasing to invest in US treasury!


[edit on 5-9-2006 by Cinosamitna]

Donwhite,

You have me 'labelled' as a Republican. 1992 is the last year I voted - I voted Clinton. In retrspect, I think Clinton was a do nothing clown. Carter (the democrat prior to Clinton) was directly responsible for the establishment of the Islamic regime in Iran.
GWB is a president with enough balls to finally do something about the threats facing this world. I recall in the 90s I did not understand why the US was so lax with Islamic fundamentalists in light of all the Islamic fundamentalists attempts to strike at the US, its citizens and the infrastructure developed there (although I do have my theories). It is this laxness that brought about 9/11.

Cinosamitna,

Zionism is not racism and that misconception (and vile terminology) was cleared up by the UN in the early 90s. Racism is a discrimination based on races yet Zionism brings in Jews from all over the world - Black Jews from Ethiopia, Indian Jews, oriental Jews, African Jews and European Jews.
You can say Zionism discriminates on a religious basis - Zionism comes to serve the Jews since Israel is the ONLY Jewish nation on earth. There are dozens of Muslim countries and dozens of Christian Christian but only 1 Jewish country. I think that a religion that was discriminated against for so long deserves to live in dignity and peace in the heartland of its religion. So no Zionism is not racist.

Zionism is not racist against Sephardic Jews. I am a Sephardic (or Mizrahi) Jew I am a Zionist. I never felt discriminated against. There may have been European Jews who came from a European mindset who discriminated against Sephardic Jews but that does not have anything to do with Zionism.

The 'goy' label you use is just anti-Jewish Propaganda picked up from the 'protocols of the elders of zion' fraud. Some Jews use the word 'goy' to depict non-Jews in a comical manner. There is no anti-goy conspiracy.

I cannot accept your claim that the US, the UK and Israel are facists in that these countries have democracies (which arab states do not and Islam frowns upon), a relatively free press (which Arab countries do not) and they establish platforms for free dialog in which discussions like this can take place in. In Arab states (like Iran and Syria) you can get jailed for this type of discussions that may undermine the leadership.

So who created HAMAS? Was it Allah and Prophet Mohammed, or MOSSAD?

Mossad did not create Hamas, Hamas existed as a civilian organization whose basis was moderate Islam from the 70s. They created schools and hospitals. Israel assisted Hamas out of hopes that a civilian and peaceful organization would serve as a counterbalance against the PLO. Hamas was later infiltrated and Highjacked by the Muslim Brotherhood. That is the fact about Israel's support of Hamas.

I am sorry if I upset you regarding Islam. My problem is not with Islam but with the interpretation of the extremists within Islam.

If you think that Islam is so tolerant then how come Persian Jews suffered so much under Islam? Yes Islam was relatively tolerant under the Turks but not under the Arabs or the Persians (Shiites). Understand that distinction.
My family roots go back to Iran when in 1832 Mashhadi Jews where forced to convert or were killed or fleed Mashhad. Shiite rule was VERY intolerant non-Muslims. Again I repeat:
My problem is not with Islam but with the interpretation of the extremists within Islam.

Now as a Jew, would you prefer me to drop a few quotes from the Talmud about what is said regarding Christians and Jesus Christ

Quote as much as you'd like. I have debunked these quotes numerously on this forum. You may want to look these up. The quotes you refer to are mostly fabricated, taken out of context and served up in a way to serve anti-Jewish agendas. If you wish we can look into this

in your post to scion1985 you write that the Palestinians are true semites - WHAT???? do you really believe that? Did you know that Genetic testing of Jews and non-Jews concluded that all Jews are genetically linked and this link is closest among non-Jews to the Palestinians, Syrians and Kurds?

You also refer to other 'alternate reality' theories of Zionist conspiracies which are very entertaining and I would like to see some reliable sources which I can investigate myself.

quote] Zionism is not racism and that misconception (and vile terminology) was cleared up by the UN in the early 90s. Racism is a discrimination based on races yet Zionism brings in Jews from all over the world - Black Jews from Ethiopia, Indian Jews, oriental Jews, African Jews and European Jews. You can say Zionism discriminates on a religious basis - Zionism comes to serve the Jews since Israel is the ONLY Jewish nation on earth. There are dozens of Muslim countries and dozens of Christian Christian but only 1 Jewish country. I think that a religion that was discriminated against for so long deserves to live in dignity and peace in the heartland of its religion. So no Zionism is not racist.

First off, the UN is not an authority to be looking up to. They are following out plans that were outlined in the Communist Manifesto and I support Constitutional Republics, not Collectivism. The UN is controlled by the same "Olympians" who control Israel, UK and the United States today. The UN thinks One-World government is wonderful, so no thanks I’ll pass on taking their advice. Now during WW2, which Jewish people were mostly given top priority to be granted amnesty out of Germany etc.? Was it not the secular Jewish people who were given extra special treatment over the orthodox? So why would the Zionists wish to save only the Secular Jewish and not the orthodox? Well, because atheistic Jews are easily manipulated into accepting falsehoods regarding race, and national borders for a people, as in ISRAEL. There is no real Christian or Jewish nation that I know of and thus what good can Zionism bring about by bringing together black Jews, Indian Jews etc, if it’s segregation into Israel and away from those communities they are already a part of?

“For, there shall be neither Iudean, nor Gentile and one people under God”.

How does one understand Zionism, unless we study the writings and policies of its founders? Take a look at Herzl’s comments on how Jewish Orthodox people must shave off their locks and blend in with modern society. Herzl said that all Jewish people who do not accept this will be treated as second rate citizens and not even be allowed to vote. Does Israel not have the “other Israel” within its very borders today who are often never heard – all those voices who so much oppose Israel and Zionist policies? Zionism has nothing to do with Spirituality and is all about segregation, and racism. You assume the Jewish people of Europe who married the gentiles and raised loving families wanted to move to Israel. You assume the Jewish people who lived in peace with Muslims and Christians and Gypsies in Palestine wanted to create a border and call it "ISRAEL", after an armed insurrection by terrorists trained by MI6 and French (later become known as MOSSAD) forced them from their homes.

“For, the Jews have always longed for Europe and should be ONE with their gentile brothers and sisters.”

To force Jewish people into Israel was a crime. Look at Marx' comments on how Jewish people are greedy etc. Marx was a bigot. What gave him the right to speak venom against Jewish people? Well, first of all Karl Marx was a religious fanatic and certainly not an atheist. After his death he was provided a Rabbis Funeral. Although he appeared to be very secular, Marx himself was no secularist in the normal fashion as the common man in Israel or Europe is today. He was an ‘awakened’ black adept, a Zionist who wished to destroy the integration between the Jews and Gentile. These Zionists were the true originators behind the "Final Solution of the Jewish Question” which was built into the Nazi party. It's no surprise that these Khazarian Venetian black Cabbalists decided to FUND NAZISM. Many top Nazi's were also Zionists and they so enjoyed harming Jewish people and many others. How come elitist Paul Warburg, (a mega Zionist) remained in Germany and funded Hitler before and during WW2? Was he not exactly what the Nazi' stood in opposition to? This sick Zionist policy was also used to prevent the Jewish people from gaining amnesty into Britain, or America and the other nations, UNLESS it was ONLY to ISRAEL! How does this segregation unite Jewish people together with the rest of the people of the world? If this not ghettos, segregation of the Jewish people into one tiny nation, than I do not know what segregation would look like? Now many Zionists have good intentions – like a dream of a homeland, and they want peace. But, there are secular political Zionists and then there are Black magic Zionists who are of Elitist Royal Bloodlines and have been funding both sides of wars since the 12’th century and at that time, they were not called Zionists. But I want to tell you that behind the seemly good intention of political Zionism lies a form of back magic so diabolically evil, that all of humanity must oppose it with every ounce of strength they can muster. I do not expect the Zionists to understand this plot but if you look carefully, into the Balfour Declaration, you will see that this creation of Israel was at the very LEAST, a conspiracy. But even if you can accept this, how many can go deeper to understand the hidden motives and investigate those forces which were working at the time of Cecil Rhodes and earlier to Marx, and back into the 1700’s?

Zionism is not racist against Sephardic Jews. I am a Sephardic (or Mizrahi) Jew I am a Zionist. I never felt discriminated against. There may have been European Jews who came from a European mindset who discriminated against Sephardic Jews but that does not have anything to do with Zionism.

Zionists are a cult based upon a false ‘Zion’. They are behind the Judea-Christians believing in the lie that Jesus was a Jew. They are the reason why America was brought into the First World War and Germany was defeated and then further crushed under unfair sanctions. They are behind the Communist Manifesto which resulted in Lenin and Stalin and the torture and murder of million of innocent people in Russia. Zionists are behind the Chabad Lubavitch clans and these phony orthodox Jewish people today supporting the corrupt notion that the Jews have returned to Israel by God’s Will. Funny, with all God’s Will Israel would not survive for very long without billions of other nations tax dollars and military support.

The true Jewish people are still saying “we have gone astray and only God will deliver us unto Israel” but the Zionists teach that forcing their way into Palestine was God’s will and that God has done this. This is a mammoth lie. Also the Sephardic Jewish people were the first 100,000 children to be radiated in Israel for testing. The Sephardic are usually treated as second rate citizens. Yes, Zionism has everything to do with materialist falsehoods. Sephardic have a much more difficult time getting scholarships and not treated the same generally speaking because of race.

The 'goy' label you use is just anti-Jewish Propaganda picked up from the 'protocols of the elders of zion' fraud. Some Jews use the word 'goy' to depict non-Jews in a comical manner. There is no anti-goy conspiracy.

I have sitting here in front of me, the Soncino Talmud, have you ever heard of it? The word “Goy” and Gentile are often used very interchangeably. This is not a joke because I know the Talmudists have decided that although it is not ok for them to work on Sabbath, they can still hire others (Goy-Sabbath) to do the work for them. I’m not bashing Jewish people but I speak the truth about the strange interpretations of these people. Also, what do you think they might say about killing and hiring another to do the job for them? I’m not saying all Jews have this strange interpretation but the leaders of Israel seem to. More importantly, I’m just reminding you that Jewish people are no saints to be claiming that Islamic interpretation is so far astray, when you have not taken off your colored blinders and looked upon the matter with some balance. Consider that the leadership under control of Pharisaic Rabbis’ is not exactly secular, yet they do seem to control the secular (both parties) and these phony orthodox use religion as an excuse for big business. I think you should understand that when “Judea declared war on Germany”; this was seen as big business also and was certainly, no joke.

I cannot accept your claim that the US, the UK and Israel are facists in that these countries have democracies (which arab states do not and Islam frowns upon), a relatively free press (which Arab countries do not) and they establish platforms for free dialog in which discussions like this can take place in. In Arab states (like Iran and Syria) you can get jailed for this type of discussions that may undermine the leadership.

All Presidents since the time of Woodward Wilson have been collectivists. Collectivists and Communists are often members of the Fabian Socialist party. That is far left and Bush is no Republican. Bush is a gun-grabbing, anti-private property, open-borders, pro-torture, lunatic. And both sides of the parties (Left and Right) are controlled by the Members of the Council on Foreign Relations. Carol Quigley (Bill Clinton’s teacher and mentor) stated this very clearly. In America, if you wear and anti-war T-shirt and they catch you, you will be arrested and have your name entered into a terrorist watch database. If you take a picture while in a plane of the clouds, they will now place you in a terrorist watch database. If you like this kind of freedom, very soon you’ll be calling it Russia or China instead of America!

Mossad did not create Hamas, Hamas existed as a civilian organization whose basis was moderate Islam from the 70s. They created schools and hospitals. Israel assisted Hamas out of hopes that a civilian and peaceful organization would serve as a counterbalance against the PLO. Hamas was later infiltrated and Highjacked by the Muslim Brotherhood. That is the fact about Israel's support of Hamas.

Israel never helped anything, or anyone. Hamas was the only choice left to vote in for these people and everything Israel lends a helping hand to become toxic and more dangerous. Hamas was funded by MI6 and MOSSAD and setup to be the best enemy’s money can buy and now they certainly are! All non-free Nations (like Israel) need a constant terror threat to control the citizens. Israel promotes terrorism and MOSSAD and Mi6 have been caught over and over again, carrying out false flag operations against it’s own citizens.

I am sorry if I upset you regarding Islam. My problem is not with Islam but with the interpretation of the extremists within Islam.

I’m not Muslim, I’m Gnostic Christian and am well versed enough to understand that the Whole of the Hadith and Koran cannot possibly contain the glory of the entire universal of God. A book does not kill anyone, people kill other people. Islam was very moderate and produced some of the highest caliber of sciences. If you want to know why these Muslim fanatics are so degenerate today take a long hard look at the foreign policies of Britain, America and Israel. The Palestinians are treated worse than swine, what do think they may do after living in that environment for decades?

Quote as much as you'd like. I have debunked these quotes numerously on this forum. You may want to look these up. The quotes you refer to are mostly fabricated, taken out of context and served up in a way to serve anti-Jewish agendas. If you wish we can look into this

The quotes are not taken out of context according to the life and death of Jesus Christ. Was he not crucified and did not the Sanhedrin trick the Romans into murdering Jesus the Nazarene? The Soncino Talmud is fully accepted in the US congress today and I can tell you that many Jewish people see themselves as the “Chosen race”, or “chosen people” and do resent the fact that tension existed between the Roman Church and Judaism. Many of these resentments have been recorded down in the Talmud. I personally have honored the “Steps of the ladder” and “Hebrew Tree of Life” of the Zohar and as commentary I have taken some guidance from the Talmud. But one should not be reading the Talmud like a Zionist would – you do not read it as a study book! Now, to claim the Talmud is evil or anti-Christian would be ignorant but you cannot deny the fact that there are enough remarks found in the Talmud and cross-referenced to be used as hatred against Jews, correct? These passages are not taken out of context but rather taken out of interpolation of the surrounding events of that time. Thus, my point in bringing this up in the first place was ONLY to provide the example that Israel’s policies if linked to various passages in the Soncino Talmud paints an un-pretty picture; just as you have done by linking “Islam” with terrorism.

In your post to scion1985 you write that the Palestinians are true semites - WHAT???? do you really believe that? Did you know that Genetic testing of Jews and non-Jews concluded that all Jews are genetically linked and this link is closest among non-Jews to the Palestinians, Syrians and Kurds?

First of all, I’m partly Semitic because I come from the Northern Ten Israelite Tribes of the Kingdom of Joseph. Now coming from the “British” background are the white northern peoples of the Covenant and also the 2 southern tribes of Judea are the Sephardic Israelites. But “British” stands for the “People of the Covenant”. Now all 12 tribes are partly descendants of the Israelites and possibly even of the Essen’s, and so if this is the case, than I could claim ISRAEL for myself also! On the British flag you see the Lion that represents the 2 Tribes of Judea the Unicorn logo represents the 10 Tribes of Joseph. Together this is the 12 lost Tribes of Israel shown on the British Emblem, do you understand this? So when we come together as the 12 Tribes of the Kingdom of ISRAEL, we are supposed to be ONE happy family. But guess what? None of this matters because ‘Semite’ means to be ‘Pro-Semite’ by default. ‘Anti-Semite’ means to be “anti-pro” and this word is pure nonsense. Also, the Hebrew peoples were Israelites and Essen’s and NOT Ashkenazi’s from Khazaria!! So the very fact that YOU and I have some Semitic blood means nothing if we have not kept the Covenant? So what is this covenant? It’s the Spiritual Israel! So if you and I have some Semitic blood that cares unless both of us are also a bunch of dumb racists. Would you like to be a racist willing to take the trouble to really care enough to get your blood tested for Semitism? Hmm, doesn’t sound too spiritual to me?

Now I said the Palestinian are the true Semites because they have lived in the land since the Bedouins settled there. And to be honest 90% of Jewish people are white Khazarian in terms of RACE. So-called genetic testing is poppycock, and would only further verify the claim that ZIONISTS are only interested in race – not spirituality.

You also refer to other 'alternate reality' theories of Zionist conspiracies which are very entertaining and I would like to see some reliable sources which I can investigate myself.

If you were interested, you would have done so by now. There are roads named after Herzl in Israel but how many Jewish people today really know what kind of anti-Jewish comments he made? The Jewish people in Israel are victims, of politics and the politics of Zionism is hated world-wide and this, no-one can deny. If one accepts that since 99% of the entire world dislikes the policies of Zionism, then that tells you that it certainly is not spiritually upholding any Covenant and is not inclined to uplift anyone. I’d hate to see the good Jewish people caught up in such nonsense.

My advice to you is to be a good Jew. Love God, read the Torah, Zohar, and Talmud but do not allow yourself to get all mixed up in this political suicide. Zionism is hated by most people and Israel (as a nation) has much pain to look forward to due to some grave Karma incurred over a very long time.

posted by JudahMaccabbi

You have me 'labeled' as a Republican. 1992 is the last year I voted - I voted Clinton. Carter (the Democrat prior to Clinton) was directly responsible for the establishment of the Islamic regime in Iran.
[Edited by Don W]

1) I should not label you, J/M. I apologize. How you vote or voted is strictly your business. Since you have shared it, I will keep it in mind.
2) I don’t agree that Carter is responsible for the 1979 overthrow of the Shah, the return of Ayatollah Khomeini to Iran and the subsequent establishment of the Islamic Republic of Iran.

I am bewildered why or how you can lay “blame” for Iran’s Islamic Revolution on Jimmy Carter.

I have a personal anecdote. In 1981, an Iranian friend of mine asked me and my parents - I lived with my parents despite my age - if we would accept into our home his nephew from Tehran. He was about to be drafted into the Iran-Iraq War. We agreed. The young man lived with us 4 years as he finished the last 3 years of high school and his first year of college. He transferred to Emory at Atlanta to finish college. I see him 1 or 2 times a year when I go back to Louisville from Florida where I now live.

He married a beautiful Iranian girl and they have 2 children. He is a professional person. I have met his parents many times and his younger brother and older sister. I knew one of his uncles well and have met other uncles. They are just like me. They have the same ambitions, the same aspirations, and the same respect for law and order. And similar foibles. They say they regret the religious are in charge of their country. I call them secular Muslims. My young friend cannot return to Iran to this day because the Republican Guard have his name on a watch list. A draft evader. Which is not unlike the US which also prosecutes those who moved to Canada during the Vietnam War. Hmm?

There were Jewish people in my elementary school. Jewish pharmacists on 2 corners of the same block I lived on as a child. I went to the city’s premier public high school which had many Jewish students. Open enrollment. Well, it was “open” to white boys only back then. I was a fundamentalist Protestant; my church did not belabor the Christ-killer theme. It acknowledged that without the death of Jesus, there would be no Christianity. No gateway to Heaven.

I like Jews. “Some of my best friends are Jews.” Ha. Well, I usually do not know what religion my friends claim - or deny. Actually, being Jewish is more than religion, it is an ethnicity. Most of my family are Catholic. I don’t discuss religion and they don’t bring it up. They know I am a non-believing Protestant and it is the pope I protest. End of confession.

GWB is a president with enough balls to finally do something about the threats facing this world.

It takes a lot more than a hefty dose - say overdose - of testosterone to be a good leader who takes his people where they need to go. It occurred to me as the second tower collapsed that Bush43 had just been re-elected in ‘04. It also must have occurred to those who make their living in politics.

I have said America went in the wrong direction beginning the day after the Nine Eleven Event. After flying about for hours, Bush43 finally landed in AF 1. VP Cheney was retrieved from Cheyenne Mountain. Draft dodgers to the end. People who think they are indispensable tend to be first to duck from danger. Hmm?

The wrong choice how America would react has made us vulnerable to spending ourselves into bankruptcy. When our enemy spends a few dollars to pose a new threat, our response necessarily costs us many times as much to counter. That’s the inevitable nature of the course we choose in 2001. I call it “whipsawing” us. OBL spent not more than $5 million on the Nine Eleven Event and we have spent $400 - $600 billion and rising. It is a physical not to say fiscal impossibility to “secure” America’s borders. We must stop this ‘fight hard’ stuff and begin to ‘fight smart’ or its Chapter 11 for the US. Oddly enough, after 5 years, a $50 million in gold reward, US citizenship and a new identity, and we still don’t have OBL. He seems to be off our radar. He surely is elusive. Why no Congressional hearings on this one more failure? Hmm?

Zionism is not racism . . . “

I agree. I have a small knowledge of the Zionist movement which I think began in the UK in the late 19th century. Its goal - to resettle Jews in the region we like to call Palestine - was laudable. It is my impression they were partially successful. They founded the kibutzes - real communists - and bought property when possible. I have posted elsewhere that I believe Jewish people owned 15% of the land in what is now the state of Israel in 1948. Due to deeply ingrained resistance most people have to outsiders buying land in their region - Jew or non-Jew - not unlike Americans - it was shorthand to label the incoming Jewish people derogatorily as “Zionists.” Shorthand like I used on you, J/M. See above. So we began to hear the hyperbole from people who knew better but who wanted to arouse the populace on the cheap. Propagandists. Demagogues. What I have labeled as proto-fascists. Referring of course to Bush43 and the Gang of Four.

Without belaboring when a person is a terrorist or a patriot, most observers say Menaghin Begin was a terrorist, as were other Jewish Freedom Fighters. I point to the King David Hotel bombing as one proof. It matters not io me, because I ignore this label - terrorist - knowing it is phoney and always applied as cheap propaganda. To incite and befuddle the home folks.

There are darn few true terrorists in this world.

There are a lot of people we do not like. It’s a cheap shot to label them terrorist. Saves thinking. What I call the “cowboy” response syndrome.

Israel is the ONLY Jewish nation on earth. I think that a religion that was discriminated against for so long deserves to live in dignity . . “

Absolutely. For a variety of reasons, Jewish people have been troublesome to the ruling elite. Your own “moniker” recalls that Great Revolt against the Seleucid monarchy successors to Alexander the Great and the Greeks. The area then called Judea was always difficult to govern, so said the Romans. Then followed the great revolt of 66 AD and so on. The Diaspora. The destruction of the Temple. The last remnants of the Jewish freedom fighters trapped at Masada. Josephus Flavius history of the Revolt. And etc. Q. Are Americans more indebted to the Greeks, Romans or to the Jews for its love of freedom?

“ . . and peace in the heartland of its religion.”

And therein lies the rub.

Don’t forget, J/M, I joined the Army National Guard in 1949 and the USAF in 1952, both under President Truman. He, along with Eleanor Roosevelt, did more than any other two people to obtain the United Nations declaration establishing the State of Israel in 1948. I believed in that then, and I believe it that now. But life is a leaning experience or it ought to be. And I have learned that we in the West had ignored the people already living in the place we “gave” to the dispossessed Jews. Today's Israel is a bit like Ben Franklin’s famous quip, “We gave you a republic if you can keep it.”

I remember the 1948-49 War of Independence. I read how the various Arab states pledged to “push the Jews into the sea” referring to the Mediterranean Sea. Sometimes they called them “Zionists.” two words which meant the same to the Arabs. Aside: I offered to Join the IDF in 1967 at the Israeli Embassy, but when I answered "no" to the question did I speak Yiddish or Hebrew, they thanked me but said "No."

Frankly, I do not believe either the Jewish people or the Arab people were fighting a religious war.

OTOH, I believe it was a war over property rights, over ownership. Both sides are trapped in their own rhetoric. OK, that was a long time ago. So as I have said so often, right or wrong, Israel is there, and is likely to stay there for the foreseeable future. Get over it. Get used to it. That’s my cheap advice to the Arabs we now call Palestinians. But is there anything we can do realistically to ameliorate the issue?

That is my motive in suggesting a solution to an insoluble problem. To make the best you can out of a bad situation you cannot undo. I liken it to being unjustly imprisoned. You have to deal with reality. To survive. The struggle has persisted and will persist until it is resolved in a way both sides can live with. Not that either side will be happy, happiness is for children, but to live close together as nature dictates in the small area now called Israel and the Occupied Territories. Post 1967.

I am sorry if I upset you regarding Islam. My problem is not with Islam but with the extremists within Islam. My family roots go back to Iran when in 1832 Mashhadi Jews where forced to convert or were killed or fled Mashhad. Shiite rule was VERY intolerant non-Muslims. Again I repeat: My problem is not with Islam but with the extremists within Islam.

You too, seem to agree Mr J/M, that it is just a coincidence that the other side is Islamic and your side is Jewish. As it was in the wars of Europe during the Protestant Reformation, 1517 to 1648. It is true that many times people engage in wars, religion is a convenient label and is tossed around carelessly. Just as I mis-labeled you a Republican, so we also hear the constant equating of religion with people who have grievances, whether or not the grievances are legitimate. It is too bad we can’t get past that simplistic view of the world to attempt to deal with the grievances. So far we have not. And I fear time is running out.


[edit on 9/5/2006 by donwhite]

do the[y] [the people calling for the destruction of the jews] have the right idea

Er, NO!

Jews are humans, therefore they should not be destroyed. Judaism is a religion, and an associated culture. Not an inviolate computer programme being carried out by everyone that is a 'jew'.

So no, the 'jews' are not evil, no they dont' 'run the media' or 'the banks', and no, they're not subhumans.