Jews Vs Muslims

iIf you break it down to its very basic form it seems to me and im intersted in how many others of you agree on this, bare with me i'm not one for putting thoughts into words, i know this has been going on for centries but it seems to me that it to it is getting out of hand, the whole good Vs evil thing, WW2 jews persicuted by the nazis, did they have the right idea, i mean look at what the jews have, and have achieved today, now its the jews persicuting everyone else, especially the muslims, am i missing something here, what the big picture?. nearly every one in hollywood seems to have a jewish surname, do the muslims and when i say muslims i dont just mean the fanatical ones, the whole religion as a whole, do the have the right idea, what is it that the jews are trying to hide/protect, definatly not FREEDOM, what is it, i find the whole thing really confusing, can people help me get my head around it whole and sum it up in a simple form for me?

And a few questions

Are you saying that the mass media is run by Jews?

Are you saying that the treatment of Jews during WW2 is contributing to today's society?

Do you think that Jews are targeting Muslims?

I'm not dissing you, just trying to gauge where you're coming from.

And I too await the very good questions put out by Intrepid.

Originally posted by intrepid
And a few questions

Are you saying that the mass media is run by Jews?

Are you saying that the treatment of Jews during WW2 is contributing to today's society?

Do you think that Jews are targeting Muslims?

I'm not dissing you, just trying to gauge where you're coming from.

This question wasnt for me but

"Are you saying that the mass media is run by Jews?" I would say the U.S media is under heavy influence from pro-Israeli/Jewish organizations.

This also applys to our Government. If you know they truth of what goes on in the world, Just look at what our Government and Media tells us. Look at how much influence the pro-Israeli/Jewish organizations have on our Congress men, Senators, Federal Government & Mass media. I can not stress this enough.

"Are you saying that the treatment of Jews during WW2 is contributing to today's society?" If the holocoust didnt happen, I dont think there would be a state called Israel. (im not trying to take anything away from what happend to the 6 million people who lost thier lives, that was more than horrible)

"Do you think that Jews are targeting Muslims?" Yes, Look at occupied Palestine and the actions of the Israeli government and Military.


Now to the OP. I would have to say strrotypically speaking: Jews are after getting wealth and protecting it, nothing wrong with that. I dont know of any Jewish family that dosent have twice as much wealth as mine. But again, nothing wrong with that, im not hating, I dont hate Jewish people, But I have noticed that all of the Jewish people I have seen are in the upper middle class.

I would have to say that they are out to protect it and that some of thier hands are dirty, just a few. And that some of them are Zionist zealots who think thier blood is worth more than others and that these people are in powerful positions in the world.

For Muslems in the Middle East: I think most of them just want to live a normal life, I think many of them want to fight back at what they see as oppression from Jewish people & the west, and a few of them hate Jews no matter what, mainly because of past expierence.

But every race & religion has these people in it, black, white, asian, christian, canadian, hindu, latino, what ever.


[edit on 30-8-2006 by Mujahid187]

posted by Beacon

I know this [conflict] has been going on for centuries but it seems to me that it to it is getting out of hand, the whole good vs evil thing, WW2 Jews were persecuted by the Nazis, now it is Jews persecuting everyone else, especially the Muslims . . I find the whole thing really confusing, can people help me get my head around it whole and sum it up in a simple form for me?“ [Edited by Don W]

Well, Beacon, maybe you ought to wipe off your lens? Briefly, the Jewish people living in modern Israel find themselves at once in a land where they are not welcome and at the same time, are deeply convinced they are entitled to be there. Secular Jews put no stock in the promise of God to Abraham. Yet they are willing to take advantage of the small fraction of ultra Jewish people in Israel who do and the fairly large number of Americans who believe the Bible is literal. Which may include our current president.

It is true some Jewish people lived in the land we now call Israel as far back as history goes. Even in the time of Abraham, the land was not 100% occupied by Jewish or Israelite people. After the Diaspora of 70 AD, the Jewish numbers were small. In the 19th century a strong movement known as Zionism or Zionist had as its goal the re-location of Jewish people in the land of their forefathers. By 1948, probably 15% of the land in Israel was owned by Jewish people.

West Europeans and Christians were horribly shocked and deeply shamed by the Nazi Holocaust. Most Germans were Christians, after all. Including the current Pope. In response to the only voices being heard, they, through the UN, created the state of Israel. The people already living there were not consulted. Indeed, they - Arabs - were largely semi-nomadic types, people who had what we call aboriginal views of family, land use and civic practices. Not at all modern like the Jewish people of Europe who had survived the Holocaust and who desperately wanted a place to be safe. For once in 2,000 years. One of the strongest impetus you can possibly imagine. It was easy for us to identify with the Jews. It was next to impossible for us to identify with the Arabs.

So here we are today. Just like we are stuck in Iraq. We cannot undo the immediate past, we cannot ignore the dissenters but we cannot forget our own errors. This is Quagmire #1 and Iraq is Quagmire #2. We can’t stay, we can’t go. We have no idea how this will play out. We are just along for the ride. Your idea how to get out of Q1 and Q2 are as good as Bush43, or VP Cheney, of the Oberfuhrer or Ms Rice. The Gang of Four as I call them. Rumsfeld of course being the Oberfuhrer.

God told the Jews they were His Chosen People. God told the Christians Jesus was the Messiah. God told the Muslims Mohammed was His Last Messenger. Maybe God will get us out of this mess He got us into?



[edit on 8/30/2006 by donwhite]

Originally posted by intrepid
And a few questions

Are you saying that the mass media is run by Jews?

Are you saying that the treatment of Jews during WW2 is contributing to today's society?

Do you think that Jews are targeting Muslims?

I'm not dissing you, just trying to gauge where you're coming from.

i'm not saying that but they proberbly are and a lot of other big multinationals are as well i wiould guess

yes, i believe if they were'nt persicuted the way they were, then they would'nt be putting up such a struggle today, or maybe what happened to them just extened the time frame by a few decades.

muslims only because they seem to be a thorn in there side, fighting back against this big jewish machine that seems to dominate every corner of western socioty.

Should we blame the religious believes of the west that has perpetuated the right of Israel to live in a land that is no theirs because they are the only link to Jesus and haven?

That is why any other religions are no applicable specially Islam and is why the western works so hard to demoralize it?

To the point that is now an Chritian vs Islam issue.

I wonder.

Do I see Jewbashing in this thread ??? HMMMMMM????

The only reason Jews dominate is because they have contributed in EVERY field and every walk of life.

Jews although representing less than 0.25% of the world's population were and still are prime contributors in science, entertainment, philosophy, education, the media, economics etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

Jews live in Israel because they put their lives on the line and fought with courage and with determination against the entire arab world who tried to annhilate them.

I read somewhere on this thread that 'Israel targets Palestinians'. This seemed to me like a totally simplistic and out of context remark because:
Israel, unlike y'all believe, does not target Palestinans but combatants, militants, terrorists (if you will).
If Palestinians in Gaza send off rockets on Israeli residential areas - THEY WILL GET TARGETTED.
If Palesinians send suicide bombers to kill Israelis - THEY WILL GET TARGETTED.
If Palestinians set-up training grounds for terrorist attacks - THEY WILL GET TARGETTED.

Hell Israel will target Lebanese, Syrians, Iranians too if they need to defend their civilians. That is OBVIOUS.

Call it targetting Palestinians if you will but it would be totally dishonest and blatantly slander if you do not admit that those targetted have blood on their hands.

Regarding what you say of those peace loving Muslims I have yet to see a massive movement of Muslims coming out to say that Israel has the right to exist in peace and making it stick with actual zeal.
Remember the Palestinians chose HAMAS to represent them so PEACE is not on their agenda.

I think it is actually the Jews who are willing to live in peace and actually proved it over and over again with Peace rallies, dismantling settlements and land withdraw. While the Muslims reciprocated with an unprecidented seige of terror and murder which Israel have not experienced prior to OSLO.

And Marg. . . Your link to Jesus babble is Ignorant in its basis. Jews do not believe in Jesus and the Christian world condemned the Jews for 'murdering' Jesus. The Jewish link to Israel is in the fact that Jews have NEVER left the land, composed a majority of Jerusalem since time can remember, the return to Zion (Jerusalem) is a primary religious obligation (In addition to being in daily prayers I think it is best expressed in the following: Jews have stated for over 2000 years in wedding ceremonies 'If I forget Jerusalem shall I forget my right hand, may my tongue stick to the roof of my mouth if I do not bring up Jerusalem at the head of all my joyous events')

This is a World vs. Muslim issue - Ask the Hindus, ask the Bhuddists, ask the coptic Christians, damn there are just soooo many people to ask as evidence.

[edit on 31/8/06 by JudahMaccabbi]

I still contest that the "Muslim vs Jews" idea is still a relatively new one. The main reason for the mutual dislike being Israel.

And no, the nazis definately did not have the right idea. In fact, if it wasn't for those lunatics Palestine would still be Palestine.

posted by marg6043

Should we blame the religious beliefs of the West that has perpetuated the “right” of Israel to live in a land that is not theirs because they link to Jesus and Heaven? [Edited by Don W]

Partly. But the West definitely picks and chooses what it wants to believe at any given moment in history. Remember (form history) that long wars between various Western religionists were ended by the Treaty of Westphalia, in 1648. In historical terms that is not all that long ago. Surely there are enough people of sound judgment and good will on both sides that we can avoid another holocaust of our own making?

Islamofascist is not a word of tolerance. Nor is it informative. It is pure prejudice, pure fighting words, pure demagoguery in its worst and most dangerous form.

“ . . other religions are not applicable, especially Islam and it is why the West works so hard to demoralize it? To the point that it is now a “Christian vs Islam” issue. I wonder.

Bush43 started this. VP Cheney and Rumsfeld made speeches urging this. They are desperately trying to energize their base for the November 7 election. All of them know if the Dems gain control of Congress, there will be investigations into their potentially criminal culpability for deals with Halliburton and so on. Then will follow the public look-see into the lack of preparations in Iraq, and the absence of any plan to end the quagmire. And etc.

You ain’t seen nothing yet!


See the Treaty of Westphalia, 1648, at
www.yale.edu...
Articles 28, 46, 77, 121 and 125 are interesting.



[edit on 8/31/2006 by donwhite]

JudahMaccabbi

Why any time that the word Muslin and Israel are put together is either an Israeli bashing or ignorance for the people that dare to address an issue that is no only politically motivated but also very much religious motivated.

You post is just irrelevant to me if you are going to attack me personally.

Originally posted by donwhite

Remember (form history) that long wars between various Western religionists were ended by the Treaty of Westphalia, in 1648.

Interesting donwhite this is a part of historical facts that I have never seen or perhaps were discussed in history class but probably ignore by me at the time.

Islamofascist is not a word of tolerance. Nor is it informative. It is pure prejudice, pure fighting words, pure demagoguery in its worst and most dangerous form.

Tell me about it I just finished a thread on the New GOP word fascist and it even apply to Americans that do not support Bush policies against the middle east.

politics.abovetopsecret.com...

Bush43 started this. VP Cheney and Rumsfeld made speeches urging this. They are desperately trying to energize their base for the November 7 election.

Tell me about it . . . how dirty and nasty can it be when they want one side of the population calling the other Fascist and terrorist supporters, yes is going to be very nasty indeed.



[edit on 31-8-2006 by marg6043]

[edit on 31-8-2006 by marg6043]

Marg,

Why any time that the world Muslin or Israel are put together is either an Israeli bashing or ignorance for the people that dare to address an issue that is no only politically motivated but also very much religious motivated.

Marg, when I was referring to Jew bashing I was referring to Beacon's original post when he implied that the Nazis had the right idea about killing the Jews. Maybe you do not find that Jew bashing or maybe you find it acceptable. I do not.

Regarding what you said about Jesus - it was not, how do I say, indicative of an arguement based on knowledge.

Donwhite,

The term islamofacist is just that.

Facsism

1 often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
2 : a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control

Webster's Dictionary

Typifies Islamic thought in that Muslim's are superior to non-Muslim's (as do Muslim's - see Dhimmis. Most Arab countries are autocratic (Iran is a theocracy in which the supreme leaders are not elected and stay there for life). Economic and opposition issues are also very relevant. All the above suits the Islamic world PERFECTLY. Therefore Islamofacist is a relevant term.

The same is true of Pan-Arabism - It is by definition Facsist.

Originally posted by JudahMaccabbi

Maybe you do not find that Jew bashing or maybe you find it acceptable. I do not.

I see any race bashing as a way to bring out a debate that will end in nothing, I am all for equal opportunity Bashing muslins is not better that bashing Jews but it seems to be more acceptable and people fell less offended.

Regarding what you said about Jesus - it was not, how do I say, indicative of an argument based on knowledge.

.

Well I mean to point to the western view of the Jews in references to Jesus, after all the bible do mention them as the chosen ones something that is seen as very special in the Western Christian mentality.

Perhaps all the problems of the Jewish and Israel may come from the western fascination of the bible teachings.

Many people seems to forget that the bible at least the old testament is the historical accounts of the Jewish people and their identification with their chosen God.

But he has been accepted by the Western with the son bonus attach to it.

Now as for Fascism that is becoming the GOP new word in their wording of terms to use for tagging anything and anyone that doesn't agree with their policies.

Rumsfeld already is using the word to tag Americans that are critics of the present administration, so I see it as an agenda to create more discord among Americans that are pro war and antiwar.

Calling that is in regard to Islamic been superior than non muslin perhaps is the desirable result to be achieve while targeting Americans with the term also and make them look like terrorist sympathizers.

funny how words are use to tried to demoralized people.

Marg,

I see any race bashing as a way to bring out a debate that will end in nothing, I am all for equal opportunity Bashing muslins is not better that bashing Jews but it seems to be more acceptable and people fell less offended.

Fact is that Muslims brought down the WTC and killed 3000 civilians, fact is that the Muslims attacked the London underground and killed 60+ people, fact is that Muslims attacked the trains in Madrid killing 200+ people, same is true in Bali, Taba, Mombasa, Tanzania, Turkey, Tel-Aviv, Jerusalem, Beer-Sheva, Haifa, Ghirba etc. etc. etc.

This was perpetrated under the flag of Islam.

I do not like sound like I do.

I am mearly trying to wake people up. Most Muslims are not enemies but we cannot be lax. And Muslims need to fight radicals off for the sake of their religion otherwise they are accomplices.

Yes and because the agenda behind the war on terror and the muslin world we are fighting a no win battler fueling more resentment against our nation.

We invaded and attack a country that now is costing us our economy.

Now people hate all muslin and careless to make a difference of who is who.

US and Israel may be planning another attack on another country so terrorism will never end.

Yes you are right. I got my eye wide open my friend but at the despicable way to get agendas going for the benefit of private interest and not for us the regular joe.

So I guess is ok to target one group over another one, right? I am neither Jewish or muslin so why should I do that.

I see both sides from a neutral point of view and I see how propaganda is played to manipulate PO.

Funny but in my eyes history shows how the roads were paved to make the world of today.

Is not such thing as Innocent nations you reap what you sow.





[edit on 31-8-2006 by marg6043]

Originally posted by JudahMaccabbi
Do I see Jewbashing in this thread ??? HMMMMMM????

You may take it that way, but I don't think it was meant that way.

The only reason Jews dominate is because they have contributed in EVERY field and every walk of life.

Jews although representing less than 0.25% of the world's population were and still are prime contributors in science, entertainment, philosophy, education, the media, economics etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

That simply is not true Judah. While I agree that Jews are and have been prolific contributors to just about everything under the Sun and therefore deserve praise for those contributions, that does not account for their relative wealth and, as you put it, dominance. The extrordinary cohesion of the Jewish population and their unremitting efforts to help one another have much more to do with their current position in world society.

Jews live in Israel because they put their lives on the line and fought with courage and with determination against the entire arab world who tried to annhilate them.

Jews live in Israel because a Jewish homeland was created and because they damn well desire to be together.

I read somewhere on this thread that 'Israel targets Palestinians'. This seemed to me like a totally simplistic and out of context remark because:
Israel, unlike y'all believe, does not target Palestinans but combatants, militants, terrorists (if you will).
If Palestinians in Gaza send off rockets on Israeli residential areas - THEY WILL GET TARGETTED.
If Palesinians send suicide bombers to kill Israelis - THEY WILL GET TARGETTED.
If Palestinians set-up training grounds for terrorist attacks - THEY WILL GET TARGETTED.

Hell Israel will target Lebanese, Syrians, Iranians too if they need to defend their civilians. That is OBVIOUS.

Call it targetting Palestinians if you will but it would be totally dishonest and blatantly slander if you do not admit that those targetted have blood on their hands.

While nothing you said above is false, it is also not complete. If one looks at a map of Israel and the West Bank the Golan Heights and the Gaza Strip and at the Israeli settlements that have been built in those places (which are mostly Jewish only enclaves) one would certainly get the impression that the Jewish objective was assimilation of all those areas into Israel. Further, if one looked at the travel restrictions imposed upon Palestinians living and working in those areas, one would get the impression that such restrictions are designed primarily to discourage the Palestinians from remaining there. Moreover, if one examined the severe building restrictions placed upon the Palestinians, one would certainly get the impression that the Jews did not want the Palestinians to build much of anything.

Now you can call actions such as the above whatever you desire, but to me personally, they spell intentional oppression, as well as economic, political and humanitarian targeting of the Palestinian people.

I am not trying to argue that the Palestinians are kind, gentle people whose only desire is peace, because that clearly is not the case. However, that clearly is not the case for the Jews of Israel either.

Originally posted by JudahMaccabbi

Typifies Islamic thought in that Muslim's are superior to non-Muslim's (as do Muslim's - see Dhimmis. Most Arab countries are autocratic (Iran is a theocracy in which the supreme leaders are not elected and stay there for life). Economic and opposition issues are also very relevant. All the above suits the Islamic world PERFECTLY. Therefore Islamofacist is a relevant term.

The same is true of Pan-Arabism - It is by definition Facsist.

Granted there are influences from Arabia in Persia, it is not, by any means an Arab country. Islamic tradition holds that descent from Ishmael son of The Prophet Abraham defines one as an Arab. Quite simply, only 3% of Persia's population are Arab.

There have been numerous outbreaks of anti-Arabism in Persia, and Anti-Persian sentiments in the Arab world. They do not share a similar language and do not come within the "Pan-Arabism" sphere, the average Persian would not be to happy about being considered an Arab (just as a Scot would be mightily peeved if you called him English, or a Canadian called an American).

Little facts like that may be irrelevent to most of you, but are important to some.

posted by marg6043

(1) Because of the agenda behind the war on terror and the Muslin world we are fighting a no-win battle [in Iraq] fueling more resentment against our nation. We invaded a country that is now costing us our economy. People [are urged to] hate all Muslims - Islamofascists- and not to make distinctions of who is who. US and Israel may be planning to attack another country so the US War on Terrorism will never end.

(2) I got my eyes opened how agendas are for the benefit of private interests and not for us regular joe’s. I guess is ok to target one group over another one? I am neither Jewish nor Muslim so why should I do that?

(3) I see both sides from a neutral point of view. I see how propaganda is played to manipulate PO. In my eyes history shows how the roads we paved make the world of today . . you reap what you sow. [Edited by Don W]

(1) When al Qaeda attacked the WTC in 1993, Pres. Clinton denounced the act and sent the FBI to brine the wrong doers to justice. The master-mind - the blind sheik Omar Rahman - is now in prison. We cannot tell how a similar approach to capture and bring to justice Osama bin Laden. We certainly had the world on our side. Then. But, alas, we did not try.

The US government apparently decided to invade Iraq very soon after the Nine Eleven Event. If Bush43 did now lie about the WMDs then he owes us an apology for leading us into a war based on incorrect information. Now that he - Bush43 - has taken down Iraq, the only counter-veiling force to Iran, the way is open for the Iranians to become the hegemony of the Middle East. Thank you Mr. Bush.

(2) I am satisfied there is very little fighting today over issues of pure religion. It so happens that one group - the exploiters - are of one religion and the oppressed group is of another religion. For identification purposes and in part, to arouse popular support in their areas of interest, religious designations are used all too frequently.

(3) You are insightful, Marg. Yes, the West has laid the roads on which we travel. Back then, we supported every tin-pot dictator in the world who would claim to be anti-Communist. Now it is the same, we want only for a autocrat to say he is anti-Terrorist and we adopt him as our own child.

Now let me acknowledge in your (3) above, those dictators were sending us their oil, their bananas, their grapes and so on. We the people have been unwitting co-conspirators in a scheme for the US thorough its corporations to dominate the world. The game is over.


[edit on 8/31/2006 by donwhite]

I agree donwhite, the problem under the Clinton administration was that Clinton’s agenda was not so much with the corporate agenda and the oil barons, and his interest were not oil driven.

That is why he had not reason why to create a situation and invade Iraq.

The events leading to 9/11 and the results after 9/11 let me believe that it was a reason for that attack to happen.

Could have been just a casualty? And taken as an opportunity?

Religion plays an important role in our nation and religious views over what religion is genuine and what is not facilitate what is going on in the Middle East and the support that people here in the US will give.

After all in our nation the believes of Armageddon and the end of times prophecies are as part of peoples believe as religion is.

All you have to do is check all the thread during the count down to August 22, people are expecting the end of times to come from the Middle East

Now could what is happening in the Middle East and the belief of many is helping less scrupulous individuals to capitalize on the opportunities?

If you look at history and what is happening right now in the Middle East is all the culmination of agendas planned and executed and delivered at the right time to achieve the maximum support of the people of this nation.

Yes, we have been played with and still we just let it happen.

Sad.

Originally posted by JudahMaccabbi
Do I see Jewbashing in this thread ??? HMMMMMM????

The only reason Jews dominate is because they have contributed in EVERY field and every walk of life.

Jews although representing less than 0.25% of the world's population were and still are prime contributors in science, entertainment, philosophy, education, the media, economics etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

Jews live in Israel because they put their lives on the line and fought with courage and with determination against the entire arab world who tried to annhilate them.

I read somewhere on this thread that 'Israel targets Palestinians'. This seemed to me like a totally simplistic and out of context remark because:
Israel, unlike y'all believe, does not target Palestinans but combatants, militants, terrorists (if you will).
If Palestinians in Gaza send off rockets on Israeli residential areas - THEY WILL GET TARGETTED.
If Palesinians send suicide bombers to kill Israelis - THEY WILL GET TARGETTED.
If Palestinians set-up training grounds for terrorist attacks - THEY WILL GET TARGETTED.

Hell Israel will target Lebanese, Syrians, Iranians too if they need to defend their civilians. That is OBVIOUS.

Call it targetting Palestinians if you will but it would be totally dishonest and blatantly slander if you do not admit that those targetted have blood on their hands.

Regarding what you say of those peace loving Muslims I have yet to see a massive movement of Muslims coming out to say that Israel has the right to exist in peace and making it stick with actual zeal.
Remember the Palestinians chose HAMAS to represent them so PEACE is not on their agenda.

I think it is actually the Jews who are willing to live in peace and actually proved it over and over again with Peace rallies, dismantling settlements and land withdraw. While the Muslims reciprocated with an unprecidented seige of terror and murder which Israel have not experienced prior to OSLO.

And Marg. . . Your link to Jesus babble is Ignorant in its basis. Jews do not believe in Jesus and the Christian world condemned the Jews for 'murdering' Jesus. The Jewish link to Israel is in the fact that Jews have NEVER left the land, composed a majority of Jerusalem since time can remember, the return to Zion (Jerusalem) is a primary religious obligation (In addition to being in daily prayers I think it is best expressed in the following: Jews have stated for over 2000 years in wedding ceremonies 'If I forget Jerusalem shall I forget my right hand, may my tongue stick to the roof of my mouth if I do not bring up Jerusalem at the head of all my joyous events')

This is a World vs. Muslim issue - Ask the Hindus, ask the Bhuddists, ask the coptic Christians, damn there are just soooo many people to ask as evidence.

[edit on 31/8/06 by JudahMaccabbi]

Have you been speaking to Ann Coulier lately or something.
i think i'm going to be sick.

If the thread is jew bashing, your doing just the opposite. I'm not my self but Hey COME ON!!!!

BUll Poop - your words Bull POOP