Easy Question: Who's Responsible for the 9/11 Plot?

Originally posted by Muaddib
That's what the defense lawyers of the terrorists claim...

I guess no defense lawyer has ever made such claims when the evidence was substantial against their clients.....

Actually, as someone who did a law degree, and who, as a result, has a couple of lawyer friends and a residual interest in the law (even though I'm not a lawyer myself), I can tell you that if the evidence is overwhelming, they usually advise a guilty plea or, if that doesn't fly, they at least keep their mouths shut on the matter, because if there is any real evidence, you can bet it'll come around to bite them where it hurts.

I notice you don't address the fact that the accused are moderate Muslims who repudiate violence.

Why would the government of Spain which is Socialist since right after the attacks in Madrid, and many people in Spain blamed the U.S. for the attacks they had in Madrid, take these cases to trial if there was "little concrete evidence.".......

Because they don't have to convince a jury, merely a panel of three judges. The government of Spain might have changed and they might have taken their troops out of harm's way to appease their populace, but they're still open to political pressure from the US.

Actually, the fuss about the terror attacks in Madrid was that the Spanish authorities blamed the Basque terrorists. The general population suspected, quite rightly, that it was an AQ attack in retaliation for being part of the coalition of the suborned, and when they discovered that their government had lied to them they were understandably ticked off enough to vote that government out only a week or so later.

Originally posted by TrentReznor
The police don't know who stole my bike so therefore it must of been them.
The police don't know who stole my bike so therefore it must of been them.

The police had the keys to my bike lock. (DoD, NORAD, TSA, Securacom)

The police won't answer questions about my bike. (NIST, FEMA)

The police (9/11 Comission) said their investigation was unreliable because other police (DoD, NORAD) lied to them about my bike.

The police issued gag orders regarding my bike.

The police have 7,000 photos of the crime scene (NIST) for five years but will not let me see them even though they are required by law and I have filed the proper paperwork. (FOIA)

Other Police investigated the police. (Conflict of interest, NIST, FEMA, 9/11 Comission)

The police really wanted my bike (New Pearl Harbour) because hey needed it for a promotion, they even TOLD me they were going to steal a bike before it happened.(PNAC - "Rebuilding America's Defenses").

Do you want to continue wiht this game? It is fun and I could go on for days.

Muaddib...
I did read the article regarding the Trial in Spain and don't have you on 'ignore'.

The article states

Last Updated: Tuesday, 5 July 2005, 23:22 GMT 00:22 UK

The judges are expected to reach a verdict in mid-September.

At the time of this article, they are still suspects. I was wondering if any verdicts had been handed down (should have been a year ago)?

The three main suspects in this trial accused of plotting 9/11 are...

(Immad) Yarkas, 42, is accused of heading a cell that allegedly provided funding and logistics for the people who planned the 2001 attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.

Along with co-defendant Driss Chebli, he is said to have set up a meeting in June 2001, which was allegedly attended by at least one of the attack ringleaders, Mohammed Atta.

The third man charged in connection with the US terror plot is Ghasoub al-Abrash Ghalyoun, who is accused of filming the twin towers and other targets, material which was passed on to al-Qaeda operatives.

Here's what I found on them...
Spain jails 9/11 plotter for 27 years

Yarkas and two other defendants, Driss Chebli and Ghasoub al Abrash Ghalyoun, were accused of conspiring to commit 2,973 murders on September 11, and faced prison sentences of 74,000 years each, but they were acquitted of those charges for lack of evidence.

I think we need to look elsewhere, no?

~~
Nice reply there Slap Nuts to the cryptic by TrentReznor

+ +

But the question remains "Who's Responsible for the 9/11 Plot?"

19 Saudi Arabian men who created the plot and later executed the plan?

a Faction within the halls of government, created the plot, executed a 9/11
plan, & pointed blame on 19 Saudi zealots having radical Islamist passions

a Faction or a group wrested control of the Administration/Government
(forming a shadow government) and either:

A) allowed 9/11 to happen
B) helped 9/11 to happen

+ +


more & more circular arguements and arcane issues make the 9/11 plot, act, then 'cover-up',
a very large, unmanageable & ever expanding balloon...imho

To be clear here...
I truly beleive that islamic terrorists DID perform the action on 9-11

but that they were just tools supplied, trained, and set up by an undercover agent of either Mossad, or CIA... (agent provacatuer)
More evidence leans to Mossad though mainly thru the history of tactics, and obvious effect that this has had on the whole region...

a lack of support for Israel in the USA, means more support for the war on terror is needed.

The whole thing wouldn't look nearly so suspicious if the administration didn't personally profit from each and every step in the war on terror (haliburton, Carlyle group, TITAN, Dynocorp, and many other supporters of the republican money raising groups.

Seriously... everyone in the PACS that support the administration has benefited greatly (even those that support both dems, and reps)

I am personally aware of a very large coordinated security contract (from dynocorp) that is presently paying over $100,000 per year for trainers of Iraqi police/military forces... (and this is the contract company) that means that they are getting at least $150,000 from the government contract just to hire the guy ($50,000 free income for one phone call).
Usually the job of training foreign troops is assigned to the Army military advisors isn't it? Not private companies that are doing the armys job...

think about that for a minute folks...
if they hire 100 of these characters, they just spent 15million dollars of taxpayers money... on something that we have already paid for, from taxes to support the military.

and this is just one little example of the military industrial complexes (the public civilian corporate side to military) perk package for our war...

Nah... they wouldn't have an agenda here... or would they?

Originally posted by LazarusTheLong

To be clear here...
I truly beleive that islamic terrorists DID perform the action on 9-11

but that they were just tools supplied, trained, and set up by an undercover agent of either Mossad, or CIA... (agent provacatuer)

I don't believe that Islamic terrorists performed the actions on 9-11. Having spent the better part of a 40 year/19,000 hour aviation career not only flying but training pilots, many in visual simulators, I can state, unequivically and for the record that no pilot, having only flown light aircraft and with the limited amount of experience of the alleged terrorists of 911, could have hit the WTC at between 500 and 600 knots ground speed with a Boeing 757/767. It is a physical impossibility given those conditions. The planes that hit the WTC were probably remote controlled. There was probably no one in them at the time of collision.

Originally posted by johnlear

I don't believe that Islamic terrorists performed the actions on 9-11. Having spent the better part of a 40 year/19,000 hour aviation career not only flying but training pilots, many in visual simulators, I can state, unequivically and for the record that no pilot, having only flown light aircraft and with the limited amount of experience of the alleged terrorists of 911, could have hit the WTC at between 500 and 600 knots ground speed with a Boeing 757/767. It is a physical impossibility given those conditions. The planes that hit the WTC were probably remote controlled. There was probably no one in them at the time of collision.

The problem is you then just go to a new set of problems that make that scenario equally as unlikely. Such as the latency in such a system would make it very unlikely for a remote controlled pilot to hit the buildings at such speeds. The latency is several seconds. It would also mean the airlines would have to be in on it and would have had to modify their planes are not fly by wire, and the control systems are mechanical . Then the passengers and their famillies would have to be involved. Then they would have the task of swapping out the original planes in flight without being detected. Then they would have to be able to destroy the original planes, and the passengers and their belongings. Then they would have to plant that wreckage at the building sites without being detected, thus meaning most of the crew involved on the site would have to be involved.

As you can see it goes on and on. Thus making the idea of guys only trained on flight simulators steering into the largest object in NYC not quit as far fetched as it seems.

Hi, johnLear,
Could you Explain Exactly How this Flying Would be Impossible? Appart from "I can't Fly like that, those guys must of been Reeeal Good". I beleive what you think is really what you think, but I would be better off If I knew The Mehanics of it, thanks.



LazarusTheLong

seriously though trent... I dont understand the reasoning behind believing things regardless of how much they smack logic in the face?

You really did use the Wrong words there mate, That satement would Hold Better If I said it to you.

How Can you think that is Logical? that really IS Ignorant.

I don't beleive Much the Government say, I really don't. But I'm being Realistic Here.

You People, Want So Much to Beleive It Was The Government in some way or another Because You would LOVE IT, I know It rasises some Intresting Questions, but for the love of god, Keep it Real.

Chibidai_rrr

with some dumb posts of my own.

thanx but,
I pray for you to see the light Before Islamic Extreamests next door try to kill you


SlapNuts

Do you want to continue wiht this game? It is fun and I could go on for days.

No Thanks Mate, Youve Already Kicked me In the nuts oncethat was Awsome.


Where was I,,, to who ever said I make no valid Point

Why all the Carnage????? Huh! 1 plane into the WTC would Have Been enough Justufication for what they need. but nooooooooooow! lest kill Thousands of our good American citizens with families and children who sufferd and are suffering aswell, it will be coool and then we can go to war with "I-Rak" for??????????whut Exactally good did that do that justifies The Horror And The Untold Horror that happend on 9/11, I ask you all to give me a Damd GOOD answer, and it better be good.

Hitler wouldent of been that Evil, it makes no sence.

Its all whishfull thinking that reinforces your Redicules allegations and Steers you further and further away from reallity.

And to end, on somthing I'm not too Shure about, The plane that came down in Pensylvania, Was that Shot down or did it Crash, If so, why did the US Shoot it down, if not Why CRash it Into a Field if there was nobody on board? again I'm not to shure about what happend with that plane.

Ok John, how about this scenario...

because, I also think that these hijackers were extremely lucky to make the hits they did...

What if the scenario I outlayed was the same except for one thing...
the planes had remote control ability, as a backup, in case the terrorists got cold feet, or couldn't pull off the piloting job.

Are remote setups merely reduntant systems (as obscure as autopilot systems) or would the terrorists have noticed the hardware required, or if someone took remote control of the aircraft just before crashing (on the approach) to insure a target hit?

Trent: reguarding your question about why it took several planes to convince the american public of the terrorist threat, rather than just one...

IMHO one attack would have been considered an awful airplane accident, not a terrorist attack... (people were already writting the first hit off as that, until the second plane hit... and even then... people were still thinking that it was mighty coincidental that two planes hit both towers on the same day...

and two planes would have made an impact, but wouldn't have made a political enough statement of "we are attacking the citizens AND the government"
so some political targets were needed also...

Why so many.... well, the more targets attacked, the better the fear factor, and the more convinced the american public is, that we have to do ANYTHING to prevent further attacks...

and then for some reason, it was about 4 years before we stopped another attack from occuring...
even though we have even more reason to be attacked, with the same open borders we had before...

Also Trent, I value that you have such a good trust of our government... Hopefully someday, they will deserve it...
but for now, they have shown me only how corrupt they can be (outside of 9-11 situation) and how fully they can push unpopular and unhelpful legislation that helps croneys, and supporters, while screwing the rest of the public...

they have also shown me how they can be spiteful, to the point of treason, in regards to loosing our most valuble iranian intellegence asset, merely because her husband didn't agree with some false information the administration told him to support. (the valerie plame affair)

Originally posted by TrentReznor
No Thanks Mate, Youve Already Kicked me In the nuts once

that was Awsome.

Sorry dude (mate)...

Originally posted by TrentReznor
Why all the Carnage?????

Maximum psychological impact. This was "the catalyzing event, like a New Pearl Harbour" that the Bush Administration/PNAC desperately wanted. They refer to it in their 2000 hit piece "Rebuilding Americas defenses".

Read this document, then find out who the PNAC is comprised of... everything will make sense to you then...

www.newamericancentury.org...=%22PNAC%20rebuilding%22

You also need, and I am using the neo cons own words here, "Shock and Awe". Otherwise you still might be "absent some catalyzing event" to achieve your goals.

So, you slam the planes into the buildings, SHOCKING, this gives the population time to get behind a TV and tune into CNN. Then just as the whole world tunes in... BANG... down come the buildings... the AWE. Maximum impat achieved.

Originally posted by TrentReznor
then we can go to war with "I-Rak" for??????????whut Exactally good did that do that justifies The Horror And The Untold Horror that happend on 9/11, I ask you all to give me a Damd GOOD answer, and it better be good.

Read the document above... They needed an event to catalyze the American public behind their agenda... the agenda calls for:

- Preemptive strikes against virtually any country.
- Establishing foreward operating bases (Afghanistan and Iraq were the easiest targets) to use against our "future enemies" (Iran, China, etc.)
- Establishing "Full Spectrum Dominance" in middle and near east.
- Securing energy reources.
- Able to hide ANYTHING citing "National Security".
- Creation of Homeland Security
- Able to arrest and detain anyone for unlimited time under guise of "Terrorist"
- Establishing "war time" which allows the President to skip most checks and balances
- More funding for the military industrial complex
- Removing the rights of Americans (Patriot Act)
- Installing surveilence (Patriot Act)
- Corporate Profit (Oil, Insurance, Etc.)

This is not as fun... need more?

[edit on 30-8-2006 by Slap Nuts]

Originally posted by Muaddib

Originally posted by mecheng
I'm not saying the tape is or is not real (you have to decide for yourself) but here's a pretty good link which covers the arguement that it is fake...
The Fake bin Laden Video Tape

If you want to make up your mind and build opinions according to what sites such as whatreallyhappened.com and rense.com go ahead, but neither one of those sites is reliable.

I wonder what happened to the times when AboveTopSecret was striving to be a different "conspiracy site"....

We need real facts, not made up and exagerated stories.

Guess which one of these images were on the alleged-confessed tape?

Even a blindfolded bat with a cateract in the right eye, and a glass eye in the left can see the OBVIOUS. Know that facts are not grounded upon BELIEFS. And your beliefs of that being Bin Laden doesn't equal as a fact.

regarding the OBL images...
good way to compare...

it was obvious to me, that the end pic is someone else... but how do i know that?

the face is totally off...
the nose mainly...
it is easily an inch shorter in the fake pic... (he has quite a snoz)

it actually looks like the whole face is shorter on the fake... and a little wider.

other anomalies also, but that is the biggie...



[edit on 30-8-2006 by LazarusTheLong]

slap nuts

So, you slam the planes into the buildings, SHOCKING, this gives the population time to get behind a TV and tune into CNN. Then just as the whole world tunes in... BANG... down come the buildings... the AWE. Maximum impat achieved.

Amongst your other Info aswell, all valid points.

But the same applies that that's what the terrorists had in mind aswell, Shock & Awe.

otherwise that would put Bush up there with Hitler.



to every one else

ok lets say they did, Imagine if they messed up and people found out (appart from us lot) Can you Even imagine what that would do to the U.S. lol there not gonna take that risk.


I do have an open mind, and I do Second Question things but I Must keep my feet on the floor on somthings, if I diden't I'd feel as if I'm treading on Tin foil hat country. and I don't wanna go there.

Shure you can Come up with reasons why the U.S. would Benefit from such a Thing, and they would but you can do that with a lot of things, maybe your all playing the association game.

I agree its Positive to Disscuss it here On ATS and I hope you all do, but when one of you calles me BLIND Just because I beg to differ and have the most LOGICAL Theory, Implies that you all Blindly Beleive Otherwise and Refuse to Think otherwise even for a second, with a Bemused look on your face like I'm a Sheep and I do and Beleive what I'm told..and you couldent be further from the truth.



Those Bin Laden Pics, the last one really stuck out, but also note the quality of the pic compared to the rest, bluring, "A MORE SIDE ON VIEW" ,over contrasted and under Exposed, I'm shure I'd look quite diferent in that pic. also He's greatly smiling wich can Increase Nose width. the "shortness" of his face could be due to the Aspect the video was ripped from tape.

I can dig Blurry photos of me out on the razz and They don't look anything like me.(lol well thats my excuse anyway)

[edit on 30-8-2006 by TrentReznor]

[edit on 30-8-2006 by TrentReznor]

Trent...
I may have missed it but who do you think is responsible for the 9/11 plot? And I'm really asking more about the plot itself not necessarily who piloted the aircraft. Who was in charge?

Mechang

may have missed it but who do you think is responsible for the 9/11 plot? And I'm really asking more about the plot itself not necessarily who piloted the aircraft. Who was in charge?

Do I sence a Trick Question there, ,? Yes the Unites States Could be said to be "responsible" to a degree for not Doing much about it if they had Intelegence this might happen.

In Charge? Islamic Extreamests, any Terrorists Leaders, OBL is a Prime candidate although U>S.A have no Solid proof it was orchastrated by him.

Not The C.I.A or Bush, or anyone like that.

Originally posted by snoopy
... it very unlikely for a remote controlled pilot to hit the buildings at such speeds. The latency is several seconds.

The military use lasers to paint a target for laser guided bombs, why couldn't they have used lasers to guide the planes into the targets?

Originally posted by TrentReznor
Do I sence a Trick Question there.

Possibly depending on your perspective. You made the analogy earlier that you don't understand why we would 'blame the police' just because 'they don't know who did it'.

The problem here is that after 9/11 the police (FBI and Bush) assured us who it was... OBL and now, just like you say here

OBL is a Prime candidate although U.S.A have no Solid proof it was orchastrated by him.

the police seem to either be backing down from their original statment or have completely abandoned it altogether leaving us really with nothing but to try and figure it out on our own at this point. And backing away from OBL only adds fuel to the fire that it was an inside job. After all someone had to come up with the idea, finance it, plan it, and orchestrat it right? I don't think the 24 or so terrorists came up with it on their own.

So (and I'm really directing this to Mr. Bush - I know you're reading this) WHO WAS IT?

[edit on 30-8-2006 by mecheng]

Originally posted by TrentReznor

Hi, johnLear,
Could you Explain Exactly How this Flying Would be Impossible? Appart from "I can't Fly like that, those guys must of been Reeeal Good". I beleive what you think is really what you think, but I would be better off If I knew The Mehanics of it, thanks.

Assuming the hijackers got on the airplane and assuming they got into the cockpit and assuming that they overwhelmed the real pilots and assuming they got the other pilots out of the pilots seats and assuming they figured out how to disconnect the autopilot and assuming they could figure out how to tune the VOR to Colts Neck which they would need to get there and assuming they could follow a VOR needle (which they couldn't) until they could see Manhatten and assuming they knew how far to lead the target and assuming they made the turn at the exact point in order to line up the WTC and assuming they could control the descent of the aircraft to arrive at the initial point of the turn at the exact altitude and assuming they were experienced enough to do all of this at 500 knots airspeed and assuming that they could overcome the control forces that would be necessary to turn the plane at that rate and at that speed for the line up and assuming all the time he is performing this incredibly skilful act of aeronautical ability without being distracted by thinking about the 72 virgins waiting for him, assuming all that, (which is one hell of an assumption) he now has about 18 miles in which visually acquire the WTC, keep lined up and descend to about 800 ft. And at 600mph which is what ATC claims they clocked him at, he has one minute and 48 seconds to do that. Now realize that he is covering 10 miles a minute and has to keep perfectly lined up with the WTC center because the least little deviation in aircraft heading will take him well to the left or right of his target. Since he is now at 600 mph he is experiencing very heavy control forces because the airlane is designed to fly at these speeds at very high altitude not very low altitudes so the controls are not given too much authority which means 'heavy' controls which means extra lead time for heading change. OK so now he's 30 seconds past Colts Neck VOR 78 seconds to go, he's down to 1500 feet descending so he doesn't miss the WTC, he is now slightly disoriented because he is over the water and its difficult to judge height above the water in addition to keeping the WTC in sight because he is so low and it is still 8 miles away and he's still thinking about those 72 virgins and whats he going to do if he misses? Now he's one minutes past Colts Neck VOR 48 seconds to go, he's still over the water, height is difficult to judge, at this speed its difficult to tell whether hes right or left of centerline of target, the cockpit wind noise is extremely loud, still thinking about those 72 virgins, whizing right over the tops of the other buildings, he can't really tell whether or not he is exactly on target but he knows that at 10 miles per minute, 600 mph at the 20 second point or 3 1/2 miles out he had better be lined up because there is not enough time left to make the slightest, smallest heading change. And he nails it dead on! With a few hours in a small airplane? With no time in a 757/767? With no instrument training (the training which gives you the ability to maintain heading and altitude by just looking at the instruments)? No possible way. Not the slightest. Not the luckiest. It could not happen. It did not happen. I don't care if he had a hundred virgins waiting for him. No Arab/Muslim hijacker piloted a 757/767 into the WTC. And 2 of them hit the WTC? Please. And another one of them hit the Pentagon. Can you spell 'ridiculous'? Can you spell 'insane'. What I want to know is who dreamed up this fantasy?

I just want to express my thanks to John Lear for that last post. The whole 9/11 thing is full of holes and you've just exposed another one you could... er... fly a jet through.

so... ok. I really can't figure out who's in charge. There could be figures behind the scenes that we just don't see. On the other hand, by looking at what went on you can figure out some ideas of who was involved...

Charges set in the WTC beforehand. That means Silverstein, almost certainly, to set up the deals for security. Therefore Marvin Bush, therefore GHWB and jr. There must have been a few people at the Pentagon in the know.

Why didn't Bush's security men rush him out of that school? Because some of them knew something?

Cheney, for sure.

Remote controlled planes. Who has the technology within the USG? Who can be trusted.

Crash site cover-ups. There must have been some people there. This is starting to look big, much bigger than say the JFK hit.

[edit on 30-8-2006 by rich23]

Originally posted by LazarusTheLong
regarding the OBL images...
good way to compare...

it was obvious to me, that the end pic is someone else... but how do i know that?

the face is totally off...
the nose mainly...
it is easily an inch shorter in the fake pic... (he has quite a snoz)

it actually looks like the whole face is shorter on the fake... and a little wider.

other anomalies also, but that is the biggie...



[edit on 30-8-2006 by LazarusTheLong]

That's because the end photo has been stretched to distort the dimensions. Probably done by the same web site that imbeded a date and false time code on the pentagon video frames.