Buddhism, FreeMasonry and Gnosis

reply to post by Tamahu


The Most holy trinisophia is a very good and interesting read. I know it is off-topic but what did you make of it?

Peace

I never actually finished reading Manly P. Hall's printing of The Trinosophia, nor his "Masonic Orders of Fraternity"; although I did read enough of both of them to see that they contain some interesting clues about how the Bavarian Illuminati, modern Masons, and Rosicrucians are, or at least were, all interconnected.

Basically that St. Germain, whether a symbol or a literal personage(or both), is "the moving spirit" behind all three.





[edit on 15-7-2010 by Tamahu]

Originally posted by dontreally
The pagan nations engaed in sex rites, drinking blood, eating raw flesh (all dionysian type rites), human sacrifice (to Mammon lets say, for the sake of being reincarnated as a rich man etc). All these are morally evil and perverted actions.

As they say... "There are two sides to every coin":

The Dionysian Wave



In addition to the above link...:

Samael Aun Weor in Logos, Mantra, Theurgy wrote...

Originally posted by Tamahu

Originally posted by dontreally
The pagan nations engaed in sex rites, drinking blood, eating raw flesh (all dionysian type rites), human sacrifice (to Mammon lets say, for the sake of being reincarnated as a rich man etc). All these are morally evil and perverted actions.

As they say... "There are two sides to every coin":

The Dionysian Wave



In addition to the above link...:

Samael Aun Weor in Logos, Mantra, Theurgy wrote...

Oh, im sorry for not doing justice to the dionysic sex obsessed rapturous mindlessness....

Thats all that needs to be spoken of. I know many people have sympathies with this mentality. And find, it well, beautfiul. Evil, animal worship, degradation of the soul to the superficial aesthetic. All these things are important to the pagan hearted.

I find it disgstingly warped and a disease of the soul. As would any Jew/Christian.

Im very very well educated in this. And the 22 major arcana of the tarot (from ashtaroth) and all that gnostic pagan BS.

I am not a fan of fantasy making and truth breaking. Which is the basic ideal of all Hellenistic theology.

reply to post by dontreally




First of all, The Tree of Life knowledge is much, much older than the Hellenistic period.

(And said knowledge is, as pointed out earlier in this thread, much older than the Hebrew Kabbalah as well).

And to imply that "pagan" cultures such as the Khemetians, the Dravidians of the Indus-Kush, the Native Americans, etc. literally worshiped animals, is, as Ra Un Nefer Amen points out, nothing but a slur:

HERU

There are a great deal of misunderstandings that have gained permanence in the thinking of the majority of “egyptologists”. Leading these is the popular misconception that Heru is the sun god.

It is damaging on two counts. For one, it is a perversion of the true meaning of the deity, and for another, it perpetuates the slur that African people worship material things (sun, rivers, lakes, animals, etc.).

© Ra Un Nefer Amen

Meanwhile the Caucasus Mountain cave-dweller's descendants(Amorites, Habbatu, Habiru, Hebrews, Hittites, Hurrians, Hyksos, Mitanni, etc.) rendered cult to Set:

"Set or Sat-an, the god of the Hittites and Hyk-sos...."

"According to Josephus, the Hyk-sos were the ancestors of the Israelites.* This is doubtless substantially true...."


"...Seth was god of the Hyk-sos..."

- H.P. Blavatsky

Originally posted by dontreally
Oh, im sorry for not doing justice to the dionysic sex obsessed rapturous mindlessness....


...Im very very well educated in this. And the 22 major arcana of the tarot (from ashtaroth) and all that gnostic pagan BS.

Inverted Binah
Demon: Lilith Ashtaroth.
Vice: Subtle Stupidity.

The Holy Spirit, Binah (Hebrew), means Understanding. Its opposite is Subtle Stupidity; Lilith. Lilith is violence against nature:

•Using the energy of the Holy Spirit through wrong channels, such as in homosexuality.
•The abuse of sex through crimes like abortion.
•The hatred of sex, as in so-called "celibacy."

When we transmute our sexual energy into Light, then we receive Understanding and Intelligence. In Fornicators the energy is transformed into Subtle Stupidity. Lilith is the opposite of Anael (the Angel of Love): Lilith is hatred/violence in sexuality. There are many souls identified with Lilith. The Holy Spirit acts through sex, and so we must know how to respect sex.

[edit on 31-7-2010 by Tamahu]

reply to post by Tamahu


I dont know what the purpose of quoting blavatsky and theosophy is. These people are the enemies of the Jews. They distort Kabbalistic teachings and try to render them 'gnostic', to fit their personal philosophy and ways of interpreting. So many times i come by these authors, Jung and his apprentice Neumann, for instance, who quote Rashi and Talmud to support a view that is completely and utterly unJewish.

Is this any diferent than in the 1200s when Nachmanides was invited by the spanish king to debate the truth of Judaism vs. Christianity. Pablo Christiani, an apostate Jew, literally told nachmanides that the authors of the Talmud were christians who supported the doctrine of the trinity.

To properly understand JEWISH kabbalah and not the gnostic/hermetic coruption requirs you to study the Jewish sources. But given people lik you already so antinomian i doubt that will serve any purpose.

Im just saying these people lie with great exuberance. Crowley, Bailey, Blavatsky, Meads, Jung and who ever else quotes rabbinic teachings.

The Indo-europeans and the Jews are two separate groups. It is as the Torah says, the Jews are a nation apart. They do not share the philosophy of the nations. They dont worship the body, they do not succumb to its desires, they do not distort the concept of justice or consider self discipline as 'self righteous'. This is the pagan attitude. Apparently the natural passions is G-ds will and not what the Torah commands. So, according to this train of thought, following the will of the body is serving God. Not be ashamed of this lustful and carefree attitude, this belief that the orgasm is the quintessential experience of Gd, homosexuality being an expression of true self completion.

These are NOT Jewish views. They stand completely opposite to this. So Theresa of Avila, St John of the cross, and the pagan catholic chruch in union with the rest of the pagan world can go on continuing serving Juiter/Zeus/Dyeus Pitar, and all the ifferent manifestations of this name.

Hebrew and the secrets of Hebrew is G-ds mind in Human language. The other languages are distrtion of the divine will and thus attempts to morph the world into its own image.

Originally posted by dontreally
To properly understand JEWISH kabbalah and not the gnostic/hermetic coruption requirs you to study the Jewish sources. But given people lik you already so antinomian i doubt that will serve any purpose.

I looked up the meaning of 'antinomian' and I am sadly confused as to what you mean. Opposed to statutes/laws? Is that what you meant? I shall assume so unless otherwise corrected.

Originally posted by dontreally
Im just saying these people lie with great exuberance. Crowley, Bailey, Blavatsky, Meads, Jung and who ever else quotes rabbinic teachings.

I am not entirely sure it is fair to say that they are all liars. It is far more likely they were seekers with a fixed expectation who therefore failed to see the wood for the trees, at times, however, if they hadn't been looking at all there would be no debate, left in the hands of academics we would have nothing to go on but sterile information. Most of those mentioned had been, at some point in their lives, indoctrinated into Christianity, and can in no way therefore be considered impartial or objective, viewed as such, there is little inoffensive about them other than naivety, but that is not always a bad thing. You've got to love those people who stick their heads above the paraphet so that we can shoot them down. It all helps to bring about discussion.

Originally posted by dontreally
The Indo-europeans and the Jews are two separate groups. It is as the Torah says, the Jews are a nation apart.

Indeed. Linguistically at least. Hebrew belongs to the Afroasiatic Language group. The teachings of the Kabbalah, from my limited understanding, corresponds to certain aspects of the philosophy of the pre-Hellenistic Egyptians, which could intimate that the Kabbalah was devised or adapted from those teachings sometime later, perhaps as a reaction to a change in administration of that state and a desire to preserve the 'old ways'. Difference and seperateness seem fairly inherent to Judiasm which may indicate such a schism which was further preserved through exile.

Originally posted by dontreally
They do not share the philosophy of the nations. They dont worship the body, they do not succumb to its desires,

This is where they do obviously differ from the Egyptians, who did worship the body...but only as a reflection of god, or rather man as the microcosm.

What do you mean by 'nations'?

On a side note, I have always wondered if that covenant served the simple purpose of reminding 'man' (in the dualistic, gender sense) of the trouble that 'member' could get him into. The Egyptians were focused on removing duality from the 'mind', so the adoption of such a covenant would be contrary to their practices and hence it would have served, for the Hebrews, as a physical reminder of their spiritual disparity from the other inhabitants of that culture. Which seems to be, above all, what Judiasm seems to have sought.

Originally posted by dontreally
they do not distort the concept of justice or consider self discipline as 'self righteous'.

The very concept of 'justice' is man-made, justice does not exist in the natural world, nor do laws as such, when one says the 'law of the jungle' for example, one is saying that the jungle is lawless. So to create a 'concept of justice' is in of itself a distortion. Laws generally evolved as a means to preserve tribal practices (and difference) when merged into a mix of tribes or cultures, such as inhabitation within a major trade or administrative centre would necessitate. Or as likely, a means to conduct business 'fairly', especially in those laws that derive via religious practices. The Temple/Church or Cathedral, has historically, served as a place for people to meet and conduct 'business', and religion as a means for excluding certain business from being conducted with outsiders present.

For clarification, do you mean that the Jews do not place value on self-discipline? Doesn't that imply that they do not believe in free-will? Or that they give their free-will over by following the laws to the letter? They don't have to think because the texts do all the thinking for them?

Originally posted by dontreally
This is the pagan attitude.

In what way?

Originally posted by dontreally
Apparently the natural passions is G-ds will and not what the Torah commands. So, according to this train of thought, following the will of the body is serving God. Not be ashamed of this lustful and carefree attitude, this belief that the orgasm is the quintessential experience of Gd, homosexuality being an expression of true self completion.

According to what belief system? Most of the esoteric/mystic traditions, to my understanding, seem to propose the marriage of the intellect, the primordial and the body, which if achieved would remove the 'enslavement' to the 'physical' or sensory/sensual stimulus and would leave no need for 'laws' or 'justice'. Much of Paganism focuses on harnessing the primordial to serve the wider social groups cohesiveness, which demonstrates an attempt at least to identify with the natural world. The Ancient Greeks religious practices formed at the crossroads between these two patterns of belief and attempt a 'balance'. If sex was used in any of these practices it is doubtful if it was 'lusty' but much more likely sacred and symbolic.

The later (pseudo-) incarnations, such as those espoused by Crowley, came of an entirely different age, ideology and mind-set and bear absolutely no comparison. Do as they will, is oft misinterpreted and should not be muddied solely by a few over enthusiastic rich people who had too much time and money and very little in the way of intellect to know what to do with the 'new' knowledge that their more enterprising brethren brought back with them on trade expeditions.

Originally posted by dontreally
These are NOT Jewish views. They stand completely opposite to this. So Theresa of Avila, St John of the cross, and the pagan catholic chruch in union with the rest of the pagan world can go on continuing serving Juiter/Zeus/Dyeus Pitar, and all the ifferent manifestations of this name.

According to John M Allegro, Yahweh is philologically indistinguishable from Zeus. He also proposed that circumcision was derived as a means of remembering their god, or the means of communicating with that god rather, the Amanita Muscaria, but I disagree with him on that one, nice idea, but it really makes poor sense.

Originally posted by dontreally
Hebrew and the secrets of Hebrew is G-ds mind in Human language. The other languages are distrtion of the divine will and thus attempts to morph the world into its own image.

Hebrew is a branch of a group of languages and can be traced as thus, did god refine the source language later into Hebrew or is the original core language that which was transmitted?

You wrote too much for me to quote, kilgore trout.

I'll simplify it thusly. Since you pagan sympathizers have such a diffulct time appreciating the proper spiritual attitude.

First, id like to say that Hebrew is the root language. I dont care what philology or the science of languages has shown. Its a controlled area of study, and of course they'll go to every extent to trivialize Hebrew.

Hebrew was the language or spiritual program, by which the creator created his universe. He gave man the abiliy to know him by giving him knowledge of himself through the Hebrew tongue. This occured 5770 years ago, when primitive man was given a higher level of consciousness. How that occured in a practical sense, im not sure, but man, talking man, with a system of languages and a ability of self differentiation occured with the creation of Adam.

Hebrew teaches man how to know his creator, and as such, the creation of Adam was for the purpose of G-d bestowing his compassion on another. Without another, who G-d give to and share himself with? So he gave man a mission, to refine the creation he created in order to know him. So we know already the end of the story. We know that the Jews will be vindicated, the 3rd temple rebuilt and the peoples of the world acknowledging the presence and existence of their creator. YHVH is from the Hebrew root HAVAH, which means 'to be'. Thus, our existence is in him. We exist because of him. Thus, the creation of free will WAS for the purpose of us giving it back to him. To serve him in as realize our inherent reliance and most of all connection with him. We cant know G-d in the higher worlds. You can only know something when your separated from it. Thus, G-d separated man from him. He gave the power of free will, the ability to say "I exist". But thats only a means to an end. To KNOW hm.

How do we know him in a world that appars so far frm him? Thats the challeange. Thats why its so hard. He made it hard to inspire man towrds HUMILITY. . To realize his inherent need for his source, and this humility will lead to a strong and enornmous faith -emuna, in him. To know him, G-d, in all his ways.

This is why in Judaism the statement of faith "shema Yisrael, Hashem, Elohenu, Hashem Echad" says all that needs to be said. Hear - understand, Yisrael, the part of mans consciousness that is rooted to G-d above, Hashem Elohenu, G-d is our G-d. G-d is apart of me, and i am apart f him. In truth, he is always with me and at any time i can communicate to him through simple prayer and self reflection. G-d is one. EVERYTHING is him. Not a single thing is not him.

Thus, a Jew lives an incredibly spiritual life. Especally those who understand that the Torah and its 613 mitzvot are designed to refine the animal soul and thus he darkness G-d implanted within his creation. G-ds laws were given to a creature that was inherently above the natural world, and as such we were not meant to imitate the natural world, as pagans do, bt learn from the Torah, a book which appears rooted in the higher worlds (that is ,absract) but in truth is also the very fabric of all physical reality. (as those who are paying attention are learning everyday).

We need to make Torah apart of this world.

The leaders of the world are against Torah. The western elites, the pagan leaders are wholly antinomian and all about glorifying the darkness in the soul.

This is why the Jews only had to relate to the west and not the east. THe east symbolizes the source, and the west is darkness. Hence the wests materialism and Jerusalem being the middle point between the west and east. Torah is about is about unifying the two realities, of spiritual and physical, and not making them mutually separate as you imagine Egyptian theology as eliminating the dichotomy in the soul by feeding both sides, by realizing God to be both. Thats the lie. The animal needs to be subjugated to the soul, which alltogether eliminates the dichotomy.

[edit on 2-8-2010 by dontreally]

Originally posted by dontreally

I'll simplify it thusly. Since you pagan sympathizers have such a diffulct time appreciating the proper spiritual attitude.

And your own egotistical attitude toward others on this forum undermines your even more egotistical claims to knowledge.

First, id like to say that Hebrew is the root language. I dont care what philology or the science of languages has shown.

So you go on and on at another thread about how your beliefs are somehow proven by science, only to dismiss science when it doesn't confim your cultish views. Typical.

Hebrew was the language or spiritual program, by which the creator created his universe.

When Kabalists say that Hebrew was the language of creation, they mean that in a metophorical sense. The Hebrew Letters, and system of correspondence in the Kabalah, works very well. However, you deceive yourself if you think this is anything other than symbolism, and other systems of religious thought can work just as well.

He gave man the abiliy to know him by giving him knowledge of himself through the Hebrew tongue. This occured 5770 years ago, when primitive man was given a higher level of consciousness. How that occured in a practical sense, im not sure, but man, talking man, with a system of languages and a ability of self differentiation occured with the creation of Adam.

The Adamic myth, while containing the basic western archetype of creation, is nevertheless, well, mythological. It cannot be applied to actual history.

Originally posted by dontreally
You wrote too much for me to quote, kilgore trout.

A common complaint, succinctness is not a talent of mine I am afraid. And I apologise in advance, because I am probably going to do the same again.

Originally posted by dontreally
First, id like to say that Hebrew is the root language. I dont care what philology or the science of languages has shown. Its a controlled area of study, and of course they'll go to every extent to trivialize Hebrew.

I don't think it is a very controlled area of study, it is a hotly disputed one and there is a limited amount of concensus beyond 7000 years ago or so. Therefore no one really knows much beyond that, but Hebrew is relatively easy to qualify within that time frame because as a spoken language it is dead and has remained largely unchanged because of that. It has no relation to the Indo-European languages and no hint of Sanskrit which clearly demonstrates a very narrow usage, which given the various diasporas of Jews is quite remarkable. But far beyond my understanding as to the whys and wherefores of that, I am sure that you are culturally far better placed to understand that.

Originally posted by dontreally
Hebrew was the language or spiritual program, by which the creator created his universe. He gave man the abiliy to know him by giving him knowledge of himself through the Hebrew tongue. This occured 5770 years ago, when primitive man was given a higher level of consciousness. How that occured in a practical sense, im not sure, but man, talking man, with a system of languages and a ability of self differentiation occured with the creation of Adam.

What do you mean by consciousness? Sentience or sapience or something else? 5770 years ago is very recent and in total contradiction to archaelogical evidence which suggests man was far from primitive 5770 years ago. The temple complex at Gobekli Tepe is at least 11000 years old. Do you not believe that those people were 'conscious'? And it is likely that there were older civilisation at Sunda and in the Persian Gulf that were buried by rising sea levels following the last great melts of the Ice Age circa 8,000 and 15,000 years ago, not to mention those that surrounded the Black Sea. Were those people unconscious in your opinion?
Neaderthal burials from about 50,000 years ago show ritualistic patterns, as well as the want to care for the sick, which seem to me to demonstrate a conscious appreciation of the finality of the physical death and yet a desire to equip the dead for the possibility of an 'afterlife' existence. If nothing else they show that the people that they buried were loved, is love in your opinion a primitive attribute?

Originally posted by dontreally
Hebrew teaches man how to know his creator, and as such, the creation of Adam was for the purpose of G-d bestowing his compassion on another. Without another, who G-d give to and share himself with? So he gave man a mission, to refine the creation he created in order to know him.

Sounds a little like Gilgamesh, without the intercession of Shamhat ofcourse to bring the two men together. But again remarkably similar, if a little simplified, to the Egyptian symbolic representation of man as a microcosm of the Universe. I think the exile is highly significant in the adaptation of those beliefs. Right up until the conquest of Egypt by Nebuchadnezzar in 525 BC Asherah and Ashtoreth were still represented in their temples, and in Jerusalem they still dedicated semen at Kidron Valley, considered the entrance to earth womb up to until around the same period. I wonder whether it was the transplantation from a place like Egypt, where life was ordered and predictable, to one like Babylon, which was chaotic and unpredictable, could have fostered this deviation from the very high physiological and evolutionary understanding that we find in ancient Egyptian practices. The Egyptians had so much time to contemplate, the Babylonians had none of that, it was just one natural disaster after another, always rebuilding, nothing had any permanence.

Originally posted by dontreally
So we know already the end of the story. We know that the Jews will be vindicated, the 3rd temple rebuilt and the peoples of the world acknowledging the presence and existence of their creator. YHVH is from the Hebrew root HAVAH, which means 'to be'. Thus, our existence is in him. We exist because of him. Thus, the creation of free will WAS for the purpose of us giving it back to him. To serve him in as realize our inherent reliance and most of all connection with him. We cant know G-d in the higher worlds. You can only know something when your separated from it. Thus, G-d separated man from him. He gave the power of free will, the ability to say "I exist". But thats only a means to an end. To KNOW hm.

I don't really care for most concepts of god, as a confirmed agnostic, I am perfectly happy, not knowing one way or another. But in terms of creation in the sense you describe it, I don't feel a distance at all from that, it is all around me and I am part of it. If someone did create this, then I would have no difficulty in loving that entity, who could not, look at nature, it is glorious, they did an amazing job and with so little actual input, they simply did whatever they did that set off the Big Bang, the rest, took care of itself.

Do you serve him in only caring for yourselves? Is not caring for our home planet of equal importance? Do you not see the value in caring for nature as caring for 'his' creation? Are only Temples, 3rd or otherwise of the only import?

Originally posted by dontreally
How do we know him in a world that appars so far frm him? Thats the challeange. Thats why its so hard. He made it hard to inspire man towrds HUMILITY. . To realize his inherent need for his source, and this humility will lead to a strong and enornmous faith -emuna, in him. To know him, G-d, in all his ways.

Come to Yorkshire, stand at the top of Wensleydale or Swaledale and I challenge anyone not to feel humble at the great beauty that water and rock can create. Equally, stand beneath the crossing of York Minster and look up at the roof of the nave and not feel absolute humility of what man can accomplish with the same rocks, a few tools and endless hours of toil. The two are deeply connected in our collective psyche and both are equally representative of 'god's' work. Personally, humility is one of the easiest things to gain from nature.

Originally posted by dontreally
This is why in Judaism the statement of faith "shema Yisrael, Hashem, Elohenu, Hashem Echad" says all that needs to be said. Hear - understand, Yisrael, the part of mans consciousness that is rooted to G-d above, Hashem Elohenu, G-d is our G-d. G-d is apart of me, and i am apart f him. In truth, he is always with me and at any time i can communicate to him through simple prayer and self reflection. G-d is one. EVERYTHING is him. Not a single thing is not him.

Terminology aside, I completely agree, we are all part of a massive living being, a very, very, very, very, very small part, mind. Almost entirely insignificant. Beautifully so.

Originally posted by dontreally
Thus, a Jew lives an incredibly spiritual life. Especally those who understand that the Torah and its 613 mitzvot are designed to refine the animal soul and thus he darkness G-d implanted within his creation. G-ds laws were given to a creature that was inherently above the natural world, and as such we were not meant to imitate the natural world, as pagans do, bt learn from the Torah, a book which appears rooted in the higher worlds (that is ,absract) but in truth is also the very fabric of all physical reality. (as those who are paying attention are learning everyday).

I do not believe that Man (in the species meaning) is above nature at all. We have the ability to reason certainly, and more significantly perhaps to comprehend, but that should only mean that we are capable of over-riding our primordial impulses, such as xenophobia for instance. I believe we have a relationship to nature and that the further we drift from that relationship the further we move away from our 'higher' brain functions, to be in nature is to appreciate how incredibly weighty our responsibility to it is.

Originally posted by dontreally
We need to make Torah apart of this world.

The leaders of the world are against Torah. The western elites, the pagan leaders are wholly antinomian and all about glorifying the darkness in the soul.

I disagree. I think the leaders of the world are more than aware that a world without laws, at this point, is impossible. As far as the Torah is concerned, it is one of many such texts, each in it's own way supportive of spiritual growth, but all dependent on dogma and ritual to impart it. All knowledge has it's benefits, but more helpful would be an attitude of acceptance of each other, and a evolution beyond, 'my way is the best way or only way'. Now that is primitive.

Originally posted by dontreally
This is why the Jews only had to relate to the west and not the east. THe east symbolizes the source, and the west is darkness. Hence the wests materialism and Jerusalem being the middle point between the west and east. Torah is about is about unifying the two realities, of spiritual and physical, and not making them mutually separate as you imagine Egyptian theology as eliminating the dichotomy in the soul by feeding both sides, by realizing God to be both. Thats the lie. The animal needs to be subjugated to the soul, which alltogether eliminates the dichotomy.

The Egyptians too saw the West as darkness. Interesting!

reply to post by KilgoreTrout


Many groups consider the East to be the Source and Beginning, and the West as the ending or closing, but I know you know that already. :-)

I think that if you go far enough West you will find yourself back in the East, IE four legs, then two, then three...

Wake up in the morning when the sun is in the East, work through the day (or lifetime), retire for rest in the evening when the sun is in the West... sleep for a time and re-awaken to do it again... or not...

No matter what each thinks of another's truth we are all at a singular point within the circle. We look around in all directions and the universe surrounds us. Each person's view or circle is different.

I think the goal, no matter what path is taken, is to become the circle and look inward upon the point - to realize perhaps that it's not the universe that surrounds us, but we surround the universe, IE it is only defined by our personal experience which cannot be transmitted by any language.

Originally posted by emsed1
I think the goal, no matter what path is taken, is to become the circle and look inward upon the point - to realize perhaps that it's not the universe that surrounds us, but we surround the universe, IE it is only defined by our personal experience which cannot be transmitted by any language.

I have just read Herman Hesse's Siddharta. I read it in almost a single sitting, it isn't a long book, but still, time being what it is, that is an accomplishment in itself for me and an indication of it's joy. I do not think that language does entirely fail everyone, Hesse didn't fall short in his transmission to me, he was crystal clear. In the past few thousand years or so, language has expanded exponentially, just as all creations do, and it can, at times, equal thought and feeling. Our need to explain ourselves and to be understood by others is what defines us from the 'lower' mammals. We speak because we have something to say, we write because we don't want to be interupted while we try and find the words to express. Communication is what defines us as a species. And, all these thoughts of the whys and the wherefores of from whence we came, to where we go, are all very human thoughts and are our only concern when you really look at our intellectual and technological developments. Our understanding of the finality of death and our need to explain that (and avoid that), is what drives us as a species. That is so much more that just our 'personal' experience, it is generational, biological even.

The reason I particularly liked Hesse's interpretation of Siddharta was because he communicates the role of the experience of this life and the role that extremes of emotion play in shaping (and enhancing) our perception. Ascetism, while all very holy and spiritually purifying, limits our involvement with the world around us, to be pure is to sever your attachment from all living things, because all that lives is connected, just as all that dies sustains the ability of the living to thrive. We sacrifice and offer prayer or meditation, but if that is all we are evolved for why do we feel, why are we sensually attuned to our environment, why does the fur of an animal or the touch of a loved one, excite our nerve endings? We will always need to experience and process both sides to appreciate what is 'good' or 'bad', telling us that something is 'bad' is never going to be the same as finding out for ourselves, we all need to have our 40 days and nights in the wilderness if we are ever to know what heaven, shangri la or nirvana are.

I look inwardly, I dissassemble myself and the nurture and nature that created 'me', and I can know myself, but that, for me, is merely an assessment of how I am calibrated, how my measuring device of the world is set to percieve. Once that is done, then I must review the world and I must drink and eat my fill of it. Make myself sick upon it.

Staying within myself, looking inwardly while I surround the Universe, gives me nothing but peaceful distance and therefore while I can experience freedom from worldly suffering, it solves nothing, the suffering still exists, the babies are still dying, the women are still being raped, the land is still being scourged. I can care only for my inward world, for my universe, for my spiritual well-being while the rest of the world goes to hell in a hand cart. I can see no, I can hear no and I can speak no evil, but that only prevents evil from entering into my circle. It still surrounds me, there to greet me as soon as I leave my inner-Temple. I can stare at my navel until I know myself to be nothing. And nothing is done. And nothing will ever change.

In an ideal world, where all had free access to knowledge then yes, that would perhaps be worthwhile or ideal, but in this world where I have only to go to work or pay my bills to know that I am financially supporting war and suffering, then looking inwardly and feeling the universe within me is nothing more than self-indulgent clap-trap (once I have done what I need to do to calibrate my measuring device that is). So really, though I agree with you, I couldn't give a # what all the texts and teachings say, they are for the most part, thousands of years out of date, and despite centuries of practicing not a single one of them has actually accomplished anything other than the creation of more suffering. And, conspiracy theorist that I am, I can't help thinking that that is the point. The ends do not, and never have, justified any of the means so far employed. What can naturally come to pass, can be hindered, but not hastened.

Which is why I recommend a little Hesse. Know yourself by all means, but don't let that be the be all and end all of it, it is only the beginning. Now go out and lead, mainly yourself, but also by example.

I agree with most of what yuo wrote kilgoretrout.

The world as it is is the creation of the western elite. We look to them, to the aristocracy, the vatican and we can thank them and their ideal, as articulated by the Jesuit founder Ignatius loyola "the end santifies the means".

I guess being an aristocrat with everything you want at your disposal, really seriously intoxicates the mind and gives you a seriously distorted sense of self importance. Their end goal does not include any of us. We are as good as the ashes that irrigate the soil. They treat us like animals and make us coequal with them. Theyve dehumanized us, made dogma Malthusian and darwinian theory, despite how evil and untrue it is.

The psychoanalyst Carl Jung, who i consider to be ridiculously evil and a complete architect of whats going on today, once wrote "nature is aristocratic". When i read that and his subsquequent sourcing of midieval writers and Jesuits (see moral probability) i just became sickened. The Catholic church is the most corrupt, conceited evil organization to have ever walked the earth.

And their persecution of Jews is by no means coincidence, but design and in line with the previous persecutions of rome, greece, pesia and babylon. Look at saint peters basillica. The church is pure pagan. St peters square divided into 8 sections (corresponding to the person of Jesus/Apollo) with an egyptian obelisk in the middle. The symbolism is blatantly clear to anyone remotely educated in these matters. And of course, lets not forget the Vaticans preservation of pagan roman, greek and egyptian architecture and art. Some of which is just so blatantly hedonistic. How some catholics can deny the paganism in the church is beyond me. Its frightening how many lies they tell.

Anyways. I hate the vatican you can see.

With what you wrote and what i agree with, self awareness and introspection is good, but it means nothing as long as theres still suffering in the world. For instance, every person is a world. How dare ANYONE consider his world more important than anothers. How can 1% of the population be satisfied with their own inner peace while completely ignoring the suffering of others; in fact, these psychopathic leaders scoff at them. They care not 1 iota. Every person is a world. As long as another persons world remains in turmoil, as long as this person hasnt fullfilled his soul rectification and hasnt lived a meaningful happy life, im not satisfied with the way things are. The psychopomps in power can really care less. They do not care. Theyre busy dressing up for masquarades or taking part in dionysian rituals. They believe in a dark world. The power structure is corrupt. Just read greek mythology, egyptian mythology or babylonian mythology is you want to get an idea of how morbid and misanthropic are leaders are. They truly despise life and therefore want to make it miserable for the rest of us. They rebel against the Torah and the creator and so we suffer for it. This has been the game for over 2500 years. Were all in exile, not just the jews. We need freedom from this evil corrupt system if peace is ever gonna be established.

A few months ago i went to my grandmothers house to harvest the cherries on her cherry tree. Her one tree yielded so many cherries it just astonished me. I though to myself "1 tree gives this much fruit, enough to feed 25 people for a week weeks, and each cherry contains within it the potential for THOUSANDS of more trees". How in the hell can Thomas malthus theory make any sense!? It doesnt. Its a lie. Its justified darwinism, and thus influenced the social agenda of the next 150 years. The earth can give soo much food its ridiculous. Even if the worlds population were 10 billion, i dont think wed be pressed for food.

reply to post by KilgoreTrout


Here's an intriguing thought:

I really like reading the Urantia book. Whether fanciful fiction or truth it is fascinating.

It proposes that we choose beforehand how we will be incarnated, what challenges we will face in general, what lessons we might learn, etc.

Is it possible we choose our own adversity?

Originally posted by emsed1
reply to post by KilgoreTrout

 

Here's an intriguing thought:

I really like reading the Urantia book. Whether fanciful fiction or truth it is fascinating.

It proposes that we choose beforehand how we will be incarnated, what challenges we will face in general, what lessons we might learn, etc.

Is it possible we choose our own adversity?

I think you had it right the first time. Its a load of fanciful fiction, not much different from the LOTR or Star Trek.

And, it amazes me sometimes the egotism of some of these people. We do not choose what challenges well face in this life or the next. Just as we dont know what will happen today, we dont know what will happen tomorrow. To imagine that were the 'god' who controls our own universe is absurd. Completely and utterly narcissistic and ignorant of the fact that theres a world beyond us that is completely and obviously beyond our control. so what, a god controls the outside world but not our inner world? No. The same G-d which controls the outside world controls each and every detail of every creation. Where a leaf will drop, who will walk by that leaf, which insect will eat it. Etc. It amazes me sometimes the egotism of the New age books which profess the most absurd and obnoxious things. People who dont die 'the count de st. germain', ascended masters, UFO cults,... This is all so clearly put out there to give an inflated impression of theosphy and the new age movement. I guarantee its all about assembling a mass movement.

I was reading maimonides and i came by a very meaningful passage sefer hamitzvot. He was describing the nature of sorcery and witchcraft and he described it as one who manipulates the knowledge of others. "knowledge is the form of the soul" he says, , and so one who exposes another to false beliefs and an unreality, this person becomes absorbed in this 'world' of fantasy and is thus under the complete control of the maker of that reality. Thats what sorcery and witchcraft is ultimately all about. Thats what the modern world is all about. And i would bet my life that thats what Urantia Book, ascended masters, UFO cults and the 2000 other conspiracy theories on the internet are about.

This is worth reading

The West’s pattern of idealization is rooted in Greek and Roman key words. Greek idein means “to see,” implicitly to see or image: to see a pattern of images. From here develops the term, magike tekne from the words which led (through Latin) to imago, imagine and its derivatives, to synonyms like phantom, apparition, semblance and shadow; and from the word for weaving (tex-textus) that shows how our texts, from the Greco-roman point of view are matters of image-weaving, the magic of a seer or spell-caster: someone who manipulates nature to degrade or idealize but, in any case, to create images, eidolon, idols that change identity. A core word, id, is the source of idein, idea and idealize that links the process of image-work to idolatry and identity. Id (“it” or “that one”) is the core of idem (“the same”) and thus identity and its apparent opposite, identical spring from one seed, like twins. The etymologic bond between identitas and idemptitas reflects the process of idealization, of projection of an idyll or alternate self, a phantom that becomes the ‘image-ideal,’ the alter-ego, double, even the possessor or displacer of its source. As the displacement or clone of the generating body-individual the image-phantom thus has an essentially predatory and consuming function. At length, by some reality test, the process of disillusionment sketched above ensues in an apocalyptic collapse of the image or double into its source, yielding elegy. Often this process is mediated by the gods; it is a theurgic poeisis, essentially tragic, often rooted in erotic trauma, ultimately in coition often of a divine being and mortal: the blood-fire or blood-knot from which glorious fictions of heroic idealization, as in the stories of the House of Tantalus-Atreus grow. Often these stories, as in that of Kadmus (“the one from the east”), Zeus and Europa (which produced Ariadne, Phaedra and Minos), Cinyras, Myrhha, Adonis, Aphrodite and Artemis (the avenging boar, see Hippolytus and his Amazon mother) are imported from the Middle East and transformed. These patterns of imagery were represented in the “viewing place” (theatron) of Dionysus, god of transformations and communal rapture, in Athens during the spring Dionysia. It is a culture based on worship and attempted mastery of the demonic through art.

reply to post by dontreally


The thing I do enjoy about Urantia is the scientific predictions that became proven decades after the book was published.

One in particular was resolved in just the last couple of years. Urantia claims the oldest stones on the surface of Earth were located near a large lake in what is now Canada.

A couple years back geologists found the oldest rock ever recorded near Hudson Lake in Canada!

I will find some others... not to argue whether it's true, but just to point out it's interesting.

Originally posted by dontreally
Anyways. I hate the vatican you can see.

Hate is highly counter productive. And I'm quite partial to the Jesuits, they are/were at least active educators of the 'lower classes' and set in motion the principle of literacy and free education. It was and is, a tool of conversion certainly, but that does not detract from the fact that they were proactive in improving the lot of the peasant classes. Often to their own detriment, they were cut off from Rome on numerous occasions because of the difficult correlation between education of the oppressed and subsequent revolts.

The Vatican itself was never really a problem, the Holy Roman Empire was and the marriage between the Church and the Frankish Kings was the real driving force of inquistion and oppression. Especially of the Jews. The Jews were never, as such inquisitioned (if such a term exists), though the Conversos were, or Messianic Jews is perhaps a better term, but they were rather regularly stripped of their rights to ownership and all their wealth taken from them, as per the first, Portugese Inquisition. Those who were 'regular' Jews were otherwise left alone, physically, it is no wonder that under the oppression of Nazism many didn't even consider running away. Until the implementation of deportations East, the Reich Jews, just saw 'same old, same old,' and expected that this too would pass. But throughout the middle ages and into the modern era, it was the Jews that paid for the wars and the crusades, via laws that restricted their ability to own property and impelled them to pay higher taxes.

Originally posted by dontreally
With what you wrote and what i agree with, self awareness and introspection is good, but it means nothing as long as theres still suffering in the world. For instance, every person is a world. How dare ANYONE consider his world more important than anothers. How can 1% of the population be satisfied with their own inner peace while completely ignoring the suffering of others; in fact, these psychopathic leaders scoff at them. They care not 1 iota. Every person is a world. As long as another persons world remains in turmoil, as long as this person hasnt fullfilled his soul rectification and hasnt lived a meaningful happy life, im not satisfied with the way things are. The psychopomps in power can really care less. They do not care. Theyre busy dressing up for masquarades or taking part in dionysian rituals. They believe in a dark world. The power structure is corrupt. Just read greek mythology, egyptian mythology or babylonian mythology is you want to get an idea of how morbid and misanthropic are leaders are. They truly despise life and therefore want to make it miserable for the rest of us. They rebel against the Torah and the creator and so we suffer for it. This has been the game for over 2500 years. Were all in exile, not just the jews. We need freedom from this evil corrupt system if peace is ever gonna be established.

But that system, is at least in part, of our own making. We stand and await instruction. We desire to be led. I have been reading the mythology and I don't see it as having passed through to the modern age other than as trace elements, I don't see it as existing in our power structures. Freedom can only be acheived from within, it is a state of mind, the physical freedom comes later, or it does in theory, I don't think we have come close for a while. It is worth dipping your toes into the New Testament and reading a little of Jesus's teachings, he was very good on that topic.

And don't be so hard on Dionysus or his mysteries. There is a great deal to learn from the Greater Mysteries, unfortunately, we seem to have inherited more of the lesser ones. They're not as cohesive as the Eleusian. The lesser ones, were more a means of assimilation or syncretism than actual teaching, and far more elitest and exclusive.

Originally posted by dontreally
A few months ago i went to my grandmothers house to harvest the cherries on her cherry tree. Her one tree yielded so many cherries it just astonished me. I though to myself "1 tree gives this much fruit, enough to feed 25 people for a week weeks, and each cherry contains within it the potential for THOUSANDS of more trees". How in the hell can Thomas malthus theory make any sense!? It doesnt. Its a lie. Its justified darwinism, and thus influenced the social agenda of the next 150 years. The earth can give soo much food its ridiculous. Even if the worlds population were 10 billion, i dont think wed be pressed for food.

I very much agree.

In the UK, most people are wholly unaware of the abundance of food around them, unless they are in a supermarket. But then alot of people are scared of food in general and can't cope unless it comes pre-packaged, with a use-by date. I'm a big fan of permaculture and think it is one of the very few ways forward if we want to meet the demands not only of the growth of the human population, but much more importantly (IMO), if we are to overcome the problem of rapidly diminishing bio-diversity and climate change. If we don't change the way we produce our food and how we utilise the land we grow on, then we have no future at all.

Originally posted by emsed1
Here's an intriguing thought:

I really like reading the Urantia book. Whether fanciful fiction or truth it is fascinating.

It proposes that we choose beforehand how we will be incarnated, what challenges we will face in general, what lessons we might learn, etc.

Is it possible we choose our own adversity?

I don't know the book, but it sounds very similar to 'The Only Planet of Choice'. I didn't like that one too much, other than in places, it felt to me like a repackaging of judeo-christian thought for those drifting away from the dogma. But that said, I'm not sure that is such a bad thing, if it gives comfort or succour, I only really dislike those interpretations that create an expectation of a physical saviour. But I don't know. Personally, I don't like the idea of it. I can imagine choosing to come to live on this planet, in fact, should I ever be given the choice, I would jump at a return visit, time and time again, but would I choose adversity specifically?

I would hazard though, that you like it because it is familiar, I had a quick read on Wikipedia, and it sounds very protestant...I'd go as far to say Methodist/Quakerish, the choice thing does speak to me of the work ethic and pre-destination. And I don't go in for those so much. But you know, when it comes down to it, it all depends on what you personally are looking for. But the more you consider that your life is beyond your control or predestined, the less likely I think you are to seek and follow joy when you find it. I think those types of philosophies do serve the ruling classes far more than the adherents.

For all it's protest, protestantism created a loyal and unquestioning work force, without whom, the industrial revolution would not have been possible. To go even further, without protestantism, we would never have had a transatlantic slave trade. I don't really think it had anything to do with spirituality but a great deal to do with subservience to our 'betters' and 'masters'. Urantia and OPoC seem to be cast of the same mold.

reply to post by KilgoreTrout


The full text is available on www.truthbook.com

There are some VERY remarkable statements in Urantia involving scientific discoveries that were unknown at the time of it's writing (1930s)

For example Dark Matter, which was only very recently confirmed by scientists:

"The Dark Islands of Space. These are the dead suns and other large aggregations of matter devoid of light and heat. The dark islands are sometimes enormous in mass and exert a powerful influence in universe equilibrium and energy manipulation. The density of some of these large masses is well-nigh unbelievable. And this great concentration of mass enables these dark islands to function as powerful balance wheels, holding large neighboring systems in effective leash. They hold the gravity balance of power in many constellations; many physical systems which would otherwise speedily dive to destruction in near-by suns are held securely in the gravity grasp of these guardian dark islands. It is because of this function that we can locate them accurately. We have measured the gravity pull of the luminous bodies, and we can therefore calculate the exact size and location of the dark islands of space which so effectively function to hold a given system steady in its course. "

- Urantia Book