On Patriotism - Why 11 Million Cubans Love Fidel

CERTAINLY America shutting Castro off has contributed immensely in the economy there!!!

I'm speaking for myself. YES-
That doesnt make Castro any less of a tyrant. Other nations trade with him and he pockets it-

So?

posted by dgtempe

CERTAINLY America shutting Castro [CUBA] off has contributed immensely in the economy there! I'm speaking for myself. YES -That doesn’t make Castro any less of a tyrant. Other nations trade with him and he pockets it - So? [Edited by Don W]

Notwithstanding Taiwan, America has made peace with the Communist PRC - Peoples Republic of China. But no peace with Cuba. Cuba is the last casualty of the Cold War. When Fidel first came to power, Pres. Eisenhower spoke well of him. America’s powerful commercial interests apparently told Castro to “leave our property alone.” OK, but what kind of revolution was Castro to deliver in Cuba? “Revolution” means change. What was going to change for the mass of Cuba’s impoverished people? Well, to answer my own question, Castro was a socialist in the late 1950s. Contemporary socialist dogma meant the state ownership of the means of production.

As applied to Cuba, that meant the sugar industry. Maybe tobacco also, but I’m sure tobacco would not have amounted to more than 10%-20% of sugar’s value. Both are labor intensive. Hard labor. Manual labor. Not the kind of labor that is honored much in the Western world. We call it “coolie” labor when speaking in disparaging terms. Condescendingly.

American History 101. It is not well known how many Loyalists in colonial America were dealt with harshly. Tories we called them. Traitors to the Revolution, too. Which is why we took much of their property without compensation. To the winners go the spoils. Before the Revolutionary War ended in 1781, some of the pro-British men were subjected to the “tar and feather” treatment. Aside from the gruesome and horrible pain that inflicted - applying hot tar to bare skin - it is said about 50% of victims died from secondary infections due to poorly treated skin burns.

We don’t keep the numbers because we won the war and we do not want to be reminded of our own brutality. Hey, we’re the good guys! It is estimated 10% fled the new Republic and an equal number of non-revolutionaries stayed on and toughed it out here. Half of those who left moved to Canada. We began to show "dumbness" or politely, insensitivity in the Articles of Confederation, 1777.

Article XI. Canada acceding to this confederation, and adjoining in the measures of the United States, shall be admitted into, and entitled to all the advantages of this Union; but no other colony shall be admitted into the same, unless such admission be agreed to by nine States. www.yale.edu... END OF HISTORY 101

America’s willing puppet, the despotic Batista, fled the island on December 31, 1958. The Revolution is usually said to have begun in 1959. So what’s in a day? I do not know the sequence of the state takeover of the sugar industry’s property. It has significance to my argument; I presume it was a definite time period after January 1, 1959. If, as I conjecture, Fidel was informed he could not alter existing conditions in Cuba, then what was the point of it all?

(Have you been listening to the official US comments on a probable Daniel Ortega election victory in Nicaragua? Hamas revisited. We endorse elections that go our way, but we threaten and condemn elections that do not. Democracy? We say we are the world's greatest ever democracy, and we want to export our version. Hubris? Hmm?)

Bottom line is that I say the United States “forced” Castro to take the part he took, to ally Cuba with the USSR. We so hate the USSR and socialism so much that we are willing to continue to punish 11 million Cubans even though the Cold War ended for the world in 1991, but not for the United States. Are we still aggrieved over the shellacking we took at the Bay of Pigs? Pouting? Or are we still shaking over the 1962 Missile Crisis? Standing on the edge of civilization. On what grounds - moral, ethical, strategic - do we continue to persecute Cuba’s 11 million inhabitants? We alone in the whole world spend over $500 billion a year on “defense.” With 27,000 children dying every day around the planet, what is that to say about our priorities?

PS. I am skeptical that Fidel takes money personally, but I don’t know how to prove that, one way or the other. I expect that is more an euphemism for money going to the government, as we here say “Uncle Sam.”


[edit on 11/7/2006 by donwhite]

Originally posted by DaFunk13
Close the thread? Why? Because you don't like the way the debate is going?

Because the original topic of the thread is about donwhite believing that 11 million Cubans love castro, not the dellusions of donwhite that the United States is guilty of everything that is going wrong in the world, that's why...

Originally posted by DaFunk13
I'm just sitting back and reading for now. I have a couple Cuban pals who would argue with you all day long, but their English isn't real hot. I'm doing my best to show you that your opinion is just that, an opinion. The fact that you lived in Cuba doesn't mean you are free from all bias and misinformation. If my friends will post here I can prove that. Otherwise I think Don has done a pretty good job pointing out the ills of your viewpoint. You have yet to admit that the embargo is a big part of the reason Cuba is poor. Keep dancing around the opposition without acknowledging any of their points and all we have in a handful trying to out-yell the rest.

Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that the regime indoctrinates into people that all the problems of Cuba are because of the evil United States..., yes there are people who fall for the indoctrination and believe the major cause for their problems is the United States..., but if a majority of Cubans really believed that the United States was the reason for their suffering, and the suffering of their families, why is it that the Unite States is the country that most Cubans immigrate to?... I am not talking about which country they go to first when they leave the island, but a majority of Cubans who leave the island stay in the United States and do not immigrate to other countries. But i guess they must all think that the reason their families in Cuba are suffering is because of the United States.

Do i have a bias against the Communist regime? yes, do i have misinformation? I doubt it, it is obvious of who is giving the misinformation in order to "blame the United States not only for the faults of the Cuban government, but for the faults of every government in the world".....

[edit on 7-11-2006 by Muaddib]

Humm...why does the United States insists on having an embargo against the regime in Cuba?...

Perhaps because the regime of Cuba hassponsored and is still sponsoring many terrorist organizations in the world?...

Terrorist Organizations
With Cuba State Affiliation

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Glossary of Terrorist Organizations

BPP - Black Panther Party - Founded in the United States in 1966 by Huey P.
Newton and Bobby Seale. It adopted Marxist-Leninist principles along with
urban guerrilla warfare, and a structure similar to the American Communist
party.

DGI - Directrio General de Inteligencia - The Cuban Department in charge of
collecting intelligence and carrying out covert operations outside Cuba.

DA - America Department - Centralized control over Cuban activities for
supporting national liberation movements, responsible for planning and
coordinating Cuba's secret guerrilla and terrorist camps, and propaganda
apparatus.

DLN - National Liberation Directorate - Organization created in Cuba to
support revolutionary groups throughout the world. Responsible for planning
and coordinating Cuba's terrorist training camps in the island, covert
movement of personnel and military supplies from Cuba, and propaganda
apparatus.

EGP - Ejercito Guerrillero de los Pobres - A political-military
Marxist-Leninist organization that followed Cuba and Vietnam as
revolutionary models. This Guatemalan insurgent organization was trained in
Cuba and was very active during the 1970s, seeking to depose the political
and military structure of the country.

ELF - Eritrean Liberation Front - The most influential Eritrean organization
fighting for secession from Ethiopia in the 1960s, actively supported by the
Cuban and Syrian regime since 1965. Various internal divisions developed
later on until the late 1970s, when a new front was built based on very
different domestic and external alliances and, eventually led the Eritreans
to victory. Cuba's support to Mengistu Haile Mariam's regime in 1978 meant
the cessation of previous Cuban backing to the Eritrean cause.

ELN - National Liberation Army - Organized by the Castro regime, this
Colombian Marxist insurgent group was founded in 1965. Its main terrorist
activities includes kidnapings and extortion targeting foreign employees of
large corporations.

ETA - Basque Separatist Movement - This organization was founded by
militants and leftist students from the University of Madrid in 1962. They
formed guerilla units that commit violent terrorist acts claiming that they
are fighting for freedom of the Basque Region, in Spain. This group has
close relations with the IRA. The two groups have offices in Havana and
their members have found safe haven in Cuba.

FALN - Fuerzas Armadas de Liberacion Nacional - A Venezuelan guerrilla
organization trained by Cuba in violence and terrorism.

FARC - Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia - Established in 1964, the
FARC is the oldest and best-equipped Marxist insurgency in Colombia. It is a
well-organized terrorist group that controls several rural and urban areas.
It has received financial and military aid from Cuba and many of its members
were trained in Havana.

FATAH - Palestine National Liberation Movement - Founded in 1959 by younger
generations of Palestinians that had experienced the defeats of 1948 and
1956. The FATAH are strongly committed to a radical nationalist platform to
fight for Palestine and against Arab intervention and manipulations of the
Palestinian problem. Mostly an underground organization until the June War
in 1967 when it transformed itself into the most powerful and influential
party inside Palestinian and Arab politics.

FLN - Front de Liberation National - The political and military organization
that led the war of national liberation against French colonial rule between
1954 and 1962. Ruling political party until the 1980s in Algeria.

FMLN - Farabundo Mart National Front - Formed in 1970, the FMLN is a
terrorist Marxist-Leninist organization intent on establishing a communist
revolutionary regime in El Salvador. The FMLN was extremely active in its
terrorist campaign, receiving assistance from Nicaragua and Cuba.

FSLN - Frente Sandinista de Liberacion Nacional - This organization was
founded in Havana in 1961 when Carlos Fonseca-Amador's Nicaraguan Patriotic
Youth organization merged with Tomas Borge's Cuban-supported insurgent
group. The group adopted Marxist-Leninist ideology and gained support from
the Castro government, employing low-level guerrilla warfare and urban
terrorism tactics to overthrow the Somoza dictatorship.
.............

www.cuban-exile.com...

That's only half of the list of such entities.

And the proof that this is still happening.

National

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sahara issue
Sahrawi children inhumanely treated in Cuba, former Cuban official

Morocco TIMES 3/31/2006 | 12:45 am


“Sahrawi children, who are sent to Cuba, followed military training and courses on making explosives,” testified one of the Cuban former officials, who made documentaries on the inhumane conditions of the Sahrawi children in Cuba, reported MAP news agency.




Sahrawi children, who are sent to Cuba, follow tough military training and courses of making explosives. Ph: Archives.

Some former Cuban senior officials confessed that children, who were snatched from their parents in Tindouf camps and deported to Cuban “Youth Island”, endured ill-treatment.

“These children followed military training and courses on the making of explosives,” said former Cuban instructor, Dariel Alarcon.

Dariel Alarcon, known as “Benigno”, testified in a documentary entitled “Cuba and Polisario Front: crime partners” that he was in charge of making Sahrawi children, barely nine years old, undergo a military training.

Alarcon, now exiled in France, recalled boats carrying an "incredibly" high number of Sahrawi children, who later were sent to "Youth island” under military control with no hope of escaping.”

“We taught children how to make home-made explosives with such products as sugar, coffee, sulphur, and nitroglycerine,” he said, revealing that during these courses “several children were killed. Their bodies should still be buried in the island if they were not exhumed,” said Alarcon.

www.moroccotimes.com...

Oh, but I forgot, it is the fault of the United States that the regime of Cuba is doing this...

So the Cuban regime has money to help all those revolutionaries that are supposedly fighting for the people to stage violent revolts around the world, but it doesn't have enough money to feed it's own people, help the Cuban people fix their homes, and in the overall help economically the Cuban people?.....

[edit on 7-11-2006 by Muaddib]

Oh and who is going to forget... The Cuban regime main goal is the destruction of Capitalism, and the spread of their anti-U.S. agenda, but I guess the regime should be getting a lot more help from a Capitalist country such as the United States...

BTW, any of you know who is the major importer of food to Cuba since 2000?..... I'll give you a hint, it is not any Communist, or socialist/democratic countries.

[edit on 7-11-2006 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by Muaddib

Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that the regime indoctrinates into people that all the problems of Cuba are because of the evil United States...

It couldn't possibly be the other way around?

yes there are people who fall for the indoctrination and believe the major cause for their problems is the United States...

Slow down cowboy. I wasn't indoctrinated to believe anything. I read a lot of books and try to do a lot of unbiased research. I know plenty of intelligent folks on either side of this debate, so lets cut the bs.

but if a majority of Cubans really believed that the United States was the reason for their suffering, and the suffering of their families, why is it that the Unite States is the country that most Cubans immigrate to?... I am not talking about which country they go to first when they leave the island, but a majority of Cubans who leave the island stay in the United States and do not immigrate to other countries.

Greatest standard of living on the planet...anyone?

But i guess they must all think that the reason their families in Cuba are suffering is because of the United States.

Nope, but despite what you believe there are plenty of Cubans here in the US who do understand the economic hardships they faced are largely due to an unfair embargo, and not Castro stuffing his mattress with their cash.

The Bush administration wants to close a hole in the U.S. economic blockade against Cuba. Congress passed legislation in 2000 opening up sales of U.S. farm products to the island nation, but machinations at U.S ports and a recent Treasury Department pronouncement suggest that the Bush administration is scheming to put an end to such sales. Congresspeople from the farm states, however, are not falling into line.

Treasury Department officials announced Feb. 22 that as of mid-March, new financial practices introduced over the past several months would become official policy. Since 2001, the Cuban food importing company Alimport had customarily transferred money to U.S. food exporters while shipments were en route to Cuba or upon their arrival. But recently, U.S. authorities have delayed the loading of ships until money from Cuba has been credited to U.S. exporters’ accounts.

www.pww.org...

[edit on 11/9/2006 by donwhite]

Humm, PWW?.... I wonder why they would write such things?...

The PWW is known for its partisan coverage. We take sides — for truth and justice. We are partisan to the working class, racially and nationally oppressed peoples, women, youth, seniors, international solidarity, Marxism and socialism. We enjoy a special relationship with the Communist Party USA, founded in 1919, and publish its news and views.

www.pww.org...

Humm..... truth and justice huh?... I guess they speak for the truth and justice of everyone who has been opressed and murdered by such Marxist ideas..... Give me a break...

[edit on 9-11-2006 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by DaFunk13

It couldn't possibly be the other way around?

Errr, over 160 million people murdered because of Communism tells otherwise...

Originally posted by DaFunk13
Slow down cowboy. I wasn't indoctrinated to believe anything. I read a lot of books and try to do a lot of unbiased research. I know plenty of intelligent folks on either side of this debate, so lets cut the bs.

In that specific case I was talking about people in Cuba, but yes there are people who are obviously fallin again for the Communist ideas believing "it's fighting for the people".

Originally posted by DaFunk13
Greatest standard of living on the planet...anyone?

Much better than the "standard of living in Communist regimes....

Originally posted by DaFunk13
Nope, but despite what you believe there are plenty of Cubans here in the US who do understand the economic hardships they faced are largely due to an unfair embargo, and not Castro stuffing his mattress with their cash.

Oh right, so you speak to a couple of Cubans, so you claim, and suddenly "there are plenty of Cubans who blame the U.S. for what the regime of castro is doing?....

posted by Muaddib
Humm, PWW?.... I wonder why they would write such things?...

The Q. Mr M, Is it true?



[edit on 11/9/2006 by donwhite]

The Bush administration wants to close a hole in the U.S. economic blockade against Cuba. The Treasury Department announced as of mid-March, 2005, new financial practices would become official policy . . The new system causes delays. Cuba is unable to deal directly with US banks, must send payments via banks in third countries, a process that takes up three days. On Feb. 25, the Cuban government said that property lingering in the United States, bought and paid for, is at risk for seizure by right-wing Cuban Americans emboldened by monetary judgments in their favor handed down by U.S. courts against Havana.

Ricardo Alarcon, president of Cuba’s National Assembly, alleges that the US government has instructed banks to forgo crediting payments to the shippers’ bank accounts as part of its multifaceted and continuing campaign to undermine Cuba’s economy. Alvarez, head of Alimport, has told US suppliers that while Cuba will honor its present commitments, it will be looking to buy food elsewhere. The US had become Cuba’s fifth largest foreign food supplier, with exports to Cuba rising from $257 million in 2003 to $392 million in 2005. Representatives from 150 U.S. agribusiness negotiated over $125 million worth of new export contracts December 2004 at the Havana Trade Fair. Sen. Ben Nelson (R-Neb.), a sponsor of the legislation, was quoted, “Congress was pretty clear in its intent to loosen trade restrictions with Cuba when it passed this legislation [in 2000].” Co-sponsor Sen. Max Baucus (D-Mont.), threatens retaliation by blocking Senate approval of Treasury Department appointments. “I am outraged at this attempt by Treasury Department bureaucrats to choke off U.S. agricultural sales to Cuba,” he said. Send this article to a friend
www.pww.org...

So, your problem, Mr M, is to explain this. I know the source, but it is the facts that are relevant. Is this true, or is it not true?

Originally posted by Muaddib
Errr, over 160 million people murdered because of Communism tells otherwise...

Or maybe just brutal dictators...apparently the two are synonymous with you, but that doesn't make it so.

Much better than the "standard of living in Communist regimes....

People come from around the globe to chase the american dream...not just Cubans. In no other nation on earth can someone come here and enjoy the same standard of living. A lot of folks who are very outspoken against the wrongdoings of Uncle Sam continue to live here. IMO, despite her ills she is still the greatest nation on earth. This isn't to say that we ignore her short-commings. Thats the beauty of it. Here we are allowed to stand up for what is right. We have a culture of social revolution and cultural adaptation that dates to America's conception. For this reason we all owe it to ourselves and our nation's founding fathers to hold our gov't accountable for its wrongdoings.

Oh right, so you speak to a couple of Cubans, so you claim, and suddenly "there are plenty of Cubans who blame the U.S. for what the regime of castro is doing?....

I am not saying that at all. How did you get a WATS for debate techniques like this? My point is that the fact that you are Cuban-American doesn't mean your opinion is the only one considered correct. And cut the "so you claim" crap. I have much better things to do than lie to some stranger on the internet. I personally have befriended two Cubans who disagree with you. One came during the "invasion" and the other has been here for nearly 2 years. They are very different people in every aspect, but share a similar view of Cuba's problems. I also know a Cuban who feels exactly as you do. I am pretty unbiased in regards to what I read and who I discuss things with.

Originally posted by donwhite

The Q. Mr M, Is it true?

Well, you are making it your claim so you have to come up with an unbiased source to back your claim. A site which is obviously Communist has the goal of "blaming everything on Capitalism and the U.S.", because that is one of the goals of Communism, the eradication of Capitalism at all cost...

[edit on 9-11-2006 by Muaddib]

Funny thing,I've yet to meet a Cuban who has anything but bad words for Castro,and I've met quite a few,they left Cuba on rafts being shot at by machine guns,hardly sounds like paradise

Originally posted by Oldtimer2
Funny thing,I've yet to meet a Cuban who has anything but bad words for Castro,and I've met quite a few,they left Cuba on rafts being shot at by machine guns,hardly sounds like paradise

I flew out and i dont have anything good to say, Oldtimer.
Its not paradise, it was, but no more. Under the dictatorship of Batista we were able to live a darn pretty good life, and had food, i guess there are different levels of dictatorship. BTW, no relationship at all, but as things would have it, i celebrated my third birthday party at Coney Island in Havana while Batista's son was celebrating his own. My family was not pleased.

Originally posted by DaFunk13

Or maybe just brutal dictators...apparently the two are synonymous with you, but that doesn't make it so.

Actually, my bad, the "conservative" number of the known amount of people "murdered" by Communism in the 20th century is at least 110 million.

With this understood, the Soviet Union appears the greatest megamurderer of all, apparently killing near 61,000,000 people. Stalin himself is responsible for almost 43,000,000 of these. Most of the deaths, perhaps around 39,000,000 are due to lethal forced labor in gulag and transit thereto. Communist China up to 1987, but mainly from 1949 through the cultural revolution, which alone may have seen over 1,000,000 murdered, is the second worst megamurderer. Then there are the lesser megamurderers, such as North Korea and Tito's Yugoslavia.

Obviously the population that is available to kill will make a big difference in the total democide, and thus the annual percentage rate of democide is revealing. By far, the most deadly of all communist countries and, indeed, in this century by far, has been Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge. Pol Pot and his crew likely killed some 2,000,000 Cambodians from April 1975 through December 1978 out of a population of around 7,000,000. This is an annual rate of over 8 percent of the population murdered, or odds of an average Cambodian surviving Pol Pot's rule of slightly over just over 2 to 1.

In sum the communist probably have murdered something like 110,000,000, or near two-thirds of all those killed by all governments, quasi-governments, and guerrillas from 1900 to 1987. Of course, the world total itself it shocking. It is several times the 38,000,000 battle-dead that have been killed in all this century's international and domestic wars. Yet the probable number of murders by the Soviet Union alone--one communist country-- well surpasses this cost of war. And those murders of communist China almost equal it.

www.hawaii.edu...#**

Originally posted by DaFunk13
......................
I am not saying that at all. How did you get a WATS for debate techniques like this?

If you don't think that I deserve the WATS that i got you can always complain to the staff... but that hardly has anyhting to do with what we are talking about....

Originally posted by DaFunk13
My point is that the fact that you are Cuban-American doesn't mean your opinion is the only one considered correct. And cut the "so you claim" crap. I have much better things to do than lie to some stranger on the internet. I personally have befriended two Cubans who disagree with you. One came during the "invasion" and the other has been here for nearly 2 years. They are very different people in every aspect, but share a similar view of Cuba's problems. I also know a Cuban who feels exactly as you do. I am pretty unbiased in regards to what I read and who I discuss things with.

There is something you still don't seem to understand. From an early age all Cuban children are "indoctrinated from sunlight to sunset" by the Communist regime, that all their problems are because of Capitalism, and because of the United States.... yes, there are people who do think all their problems are because of the United States, but it is not....

As i have already demonstrated the Communist regime, like all other Communist regimes, spends more money and resources on spreading the "workers revolution" throughout the world by several means, including and mainly by inciting violent revolution, yet they do not spend much money on the people they claim to be fighting for....

[edit on 9-11-2006 by Muaddib]

The wording of that article is sketchy at best. Communism is an economic system. A brutal dictator is just that...brutal, no matter what type of economy they have. It just happens that Stalin, Mao, etc.. happened to be communist also. Communism didn't murder all those people...crazy dictators did.

Stop ignoring my points. You can't listen with your mouth open.

So Dafunk, show us proof of a Communist country which has not suppressed, have not imprison, and have not murdered many of their own people just because they didn't agree with the Communist regime..... Just one Communist regime Dafunk...

BTW.... perhaps you should follow your own advice and listen once in a while...




[edit on 10-11-2006 by Muaddib]