Innocent Lebanese? Sorry, not in this universe

Originally posted by cavscout
Grow up.

You know, you're right. I apologise for the right winger thing, and I'll correct my previous statement to say that is the most pathetic reasoning I have ever seen anybody use, is that better?

Originally posted by cavscout

Originally posted by wang
Please i beg anyone who does read this post, who does feel like lebanon does deserve what they are getting,

And you accuse me of ignorance! How dare you. Read my posts. I have stated again and again that the people of Lebanon are not guilty of anything, that they do not deserve this, and that I do wish they were not dying! Where do you get off making sensational accusations against me by submitting or implying false evidence against me?

Yes, all war is horrible, and no person ever deserves to die by human hands. That said, the people of Lebanon and their government are not innocent bystanders, they made a choice to allow Hezbollah to stay. Maybe it was the only sane choice, maybe it was the right choice, maybe it was the only choice, and maybe they had no other choice. Say whatever you want, but they made a choice.

A CHOICE. GET IT? A CHOICE.

Put the emotions down for sec. and listen to what I am saying. Their choice justifies none of the action taken against them, nor does it make them guilty or deserving, it just makes them not innocent bystanders.

Why does not make them innocent bystanders?

Because they made a CHOISE.


[edit on 23-7-2006 by cavscout]

Im not trying to proivde false evidence agaisnt you, all i was trying to do is for people who do agree with your stance to see pictures of what they are acturlly aligning themselves agaisnt.
I think you have a flawed logic.
On one hand you say that the lebanese people are not guilty and should not be dying. Yet you then say that these people had a choice to keep hezzbollah since they made that choice they are not innocent civilians, and we should have no sympathy for their deaths.
As i have been trying to say that not all people have that fabulous 'choice' that you talk about.
And no im not going to take my emotions out of this, to do so would de-humanise me.

You know what, the Germans voted Hitler too. Because they were desperate and he manipulated them into believing he could save them.

Little did they know he would cause more harm than good.

Sound familiar?

Originally posted by wang
And no im not going to take my emotions out of this, to do so would de-humanise me.

Hope you dont end up with a red flag like me...thats where your emotions get you.

I have finally heard from my friends, last time I spoke to them was on Monday. Well, they are now in Jordan. How fortunate for them. They left on Monday after the air raids in their area. If they had left a day later, they would not have got out. Simple.

What the media is not telling us:

The media want us to believe that it is only the southern area of Lebanon that have been bombed and now subject to Israel ground offensive. It is ALL of Lebanon. Archrafieh is in the eastern part of Beirut, that was subject to Israel bombardment. The agenda was to take out the port, but Israel didnt just take the port out, it took the houses and infrastructure around that area too. So much for strategic hits. There is nothing left in Beirut, nothing. The ground offensive may initially have been focused on southern area but that is not the case now.

Just heard on the news that UK Minister who is in Beruit is speaking out against Israel. Seems that he has seen what we havent.

"It's very difficult to understand the kind of military tactics that are being used," Howells told journalists in Beirut.

"If they are chasing Hezbollah, then go for Hezbollah. You don't go for the entire Lebanese nation," Howells, minister of state for the Middle East, Foreign and Commonwealth Office, said.

www.news24.com...

oh and my friends family have stayed. See its their home and they wont leave.
Aid isnt getting through, I was told this but it is nice to see the media telling people about the crisis.

Geneva - Tons of humanitarian aid material are stuck in Syria with no safe route to reach people driven from their homes by Israeli bomb attacks on Lebanon, the United Nations refugee agency said on Sunday.

"The tragedy is that the supplies are there in Syria. The question now is how to get them in," said Ekber Menemencioglu, regional director in the office of the UN High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR), in a written UNHCR statement.

With buildings burning in Beirut on the 12th day of the bombardment, the agency said it was anxious about the safety of the overland delivery route into Lebanon from Syria, and called for a humanitarian corridor to be set up so that the aid could get through

www.news24.com...


[edit on 23-7-2006 by NJE777]

[edit on 23-7-2006 by NJE777]

[edit on 23-7-2006 by NJE777]

Yes Nat public opinion seems to be swinging against israel here now as well as the Uk, not that this would bother them at all, but our wonderful pm is still mimicking the US stance. Mind you i think he is receiving some genuine pressure, elections!!!

And for the OP to state that the Lebenese deserve to be blown to pieces because of some fantasy about choice is just mindnumbing, simplistic drivel. Some pre cognitive ability would be nice but that is also fantasy. Lets be frank here, the greater majority of the Lebanese population just want whats best for themselves and their families, a peaceful existence, as do, i would hope the majority of Israeli's. It seems to me to be purely destruction and overkill just for the sake of it and any sympathy that the Israeli,s have garnered previously is very quickly evaporating.

Originally posted by Mdv2
One simple question, why shouldn't Israel's barbaric and irrational attacks on Lebanon not be defined as an act of terror, while Hezbollah's defensive fight should be?

There is nothing defensive about kidnapping and executing innocent civilians, or firing rockets indiscriminatley across a border.

If a similar scenario would take place in Iraq, when US soldiers would get abducted the US would never respond in such a similar way as Israel does and Nazi Germany did in world war II. The world would condemn such an US response (rightfully).

That is a good point. When insurgents kidnap and murder Americans in Iraq, or execute busloads of innocent Shiites, there is no international outcry, only excuses for the actions of the insurgents. Much the same is happening here - people are quick to point out Israel's misdeeds, but refuse to see that Hezbollah has any role in the problem.

You have to realize that Hezbollah is not classified as a terrorist organization by the by the E.U. and other international organizations, however to the United States and Israel it is. And being a resident of the US I also view them as terrorists. Their actions prove to me that they are (terrorists) and that they should be dealt in that manner.
Despite the idea that Hezbollah is a military resistance movement against Israeli occupation forces, it seems that they, much like Iran's leader want to eliminate Israel from the map altogether. Hezbollah works with the Lebanese people, as it also supported by a civilian arm. This civilian arm is as vital to Hezbollah as the military arm; this is where they recieve their news (propaganda), motivations, and recruitments. I believe a lot of the reports emerging from Lebanon will often be used as methods of propaganda, esp when they claim that Israel is targeting civilians.
Israel on the other hand is on a defensive, they have attempted diplomacy several times and it turns out that no matter how they attempt to appease the Islamic majority in the middle-east their efforts will never be heard. Israel is taking preventive measures against Hezbollah and they certainly have the right to do so.

sources:
news.bbc.co.uk...
en.wikipedia.org...
www.palestinefacts.org...


[edit on 23-7-2006 by laiguana]

Let me see if I am getting this straight.
The lebanese are not innocent because they did not take steps against Hezbollah and allowed it to continue it's ant-israel agenda. By that logic does this mean those who died on 9/11 were not innocent because they did not prevent our government from supporting Israel and pursuing policies that are unpopular in the Mideast?

^ No you didn't get it right, try reading it again. I stated that the Lebanese people actively participate in Hezbollah's efforts to destroy Israel.

Originally posted by laiguana
^ No you didn't get it right, try reading it again. I stated that the Lebanese people actively participate in Hezbollah's efforts to destroy Israel.

Well you should accurately change your statement to read that SOME of the Lebanese people support Hizbollah. I do not believe that they are out to destroy israel but to protect their people from Israel. If they really wanted to destroy them , they have had 20 years to do so. I think you exaggerate a little too much.
During the last entry into Lebanon in 1982 the israelis killed 6600 people 80% civilian and 1100 PLO with 88 Israeli IDF deaths. The enitre campaign got about 20,000 people dead. So who is exterminating who? The same can be said for Palestinians, and they may wish the Israelis to be dead but we all know who does the dying and who actually does the killing.

Originally posted by laiguana
^ No you didn't get it right, try reading it again. I stated that the Lebanese people actively participate in Hezbollah's efforts to destroy Israel.

Riddle me this.

The lebanese population is est. 3,874,050 en.wikipedia.org...
The military strength of hezbollah is Several thousand supporters and a few hundred terrorist operatives.
library.nps.navy.mil...
Yet you believe that the lebanse people actively participated in hezbollah's actions to destroy Israel.

So tell me whats the difference when the Mossad homepage quotes

The Institute for Intelligence and Special Operations, otherwise known as 'Mossad' has been appointed by the State of Israel to collect information, analyze intelligence and perform special covert operations beyond its borders .

www.mossad.gov.il...

Now what do you think special cover operations beyond its borders actualy means?
Here are some quotes from wiki.

The alleged assassination of Canadian scientist Gerald Bull, developer of the Iraqi supergun. While he was working on the Scud project, someone started "warning" him to stop working on the missiles. Over a period of a few months his apartment was broken into several times but nothing was stolen. He nevertheless continued to work on the project, and in March 1990 he was shot five times in the back of the neck while opening his door. The most common theory is that Mossad was responsible, and Mossad representatives have uncharacteristically all but claimed responsibility for his murder. Others, including Bull's son, believe that the Mossad is taking credit for an act they did not commit to scare off others who may try to help enemy regimes. The alternative theory is that Bull was killed by the CIA. Iraq and Iran are also candidates for suspicion.[1]

And then the one you surely have heard about...since there was a movie about it.

Assassination of those responsible for the Munich massacre at the 1972 Olympic Games, called "Operation Wrath of God".

Here is a failed op

In July 1973, Ahmed Bouchiki, an innocent Moroccan waiter in Lillehammer, Norway, was killed while walking with his pregnant wife. He had been mistaken for Ali Hassan Salameh, one of the leaders of Black September, the Palestinian group responsible for the Munich massacre, who had been given shelter in Norway. The Mossad agents had used fake Canadian passports, which angered the Canadian government. Six Mossad agents were arrested, and the incident became known as the Lillehammer affair.

en.wikipedia.org...

They are just the one's we know about, how many other assaninations do you think mossad has done?

Now israel has a population of est. 7,026,0001 en.wikipedia.org...
I have looked for the number of Mossad agents, but could not find any credible sources. It is generaly accepted that mossad does have agents around the world, but the exact number is not known. I would assume and i hope some military analyst will back me up on this that Mossad would have far over acouple hundred maybe even over a thousand agents, not all would be active at all time but they are still apart of Mossad. Ohh yeah and majority of israel back the actions of mossad, yet only a minority of lebanese back the actions of hezzbollah.


So finaly to my point. If you can hold the actions of several hundred operatives accountable to a whole nation, should we not hold the whole of israel for the actions of its mossad agents? So to have no sypmthathy for the lebanese, you then again have no sympathy for the isralei inoocents either.

Me i sympathize with both israeli and lebanese inoocents.

Anything you have said about Mossad can just as easily be applied to Savak or a myriad of other inteligence organizations.

Hezbollah commits acts of terror. The Lebanese people harbor Hezbollah, and hide their weapons in mosques and schools.

The Lebanese people want this situation to continue, or else they would have asked the world community for help in enforcing Resolution 1559.

The Lebanese people do not petition their gov't for removal of Hezbollah, nor are there demonstrations in the street against Hezbollah's terrorism.

Until you accept these facts, you will never progress past where you are now.



[edit on 24-7-2006 by bombers8]

Originally posted by bombers8
Anything you have said about Mossad can just as easily be applied to Savak or a myriad of other inteligence organizations.

I've not heard of many SAVAK incidences of spying on the USA. I have heard of Mossad spying on America.

Hezbollah commits acts of terror. The Lebanese people harbor Hezbollah, and hide their weapons in mosques and schools.

Some people such as the Palestinians and Muslims in the south yes.
If they were in their country they wouldn't be in Lebanon.

The Lebanese people want this situation to continue, or else they would have asked the world community for help in enforcing Resolution 1559.

I think its more the Israelis want it to continue. Thats pretty foolish to think civilians actually wish to be murdered.

The Lebanese people do not petition their gov't for removal of Hezbollah, nor are there demonstrations in the street against Hezbollah's terrorism.

Again its some Lebanese do not petition. There are many who do.

Until you accept these facts, you will never progress past where you are now.

In the 55 years your country has been in existence you are still at odds with neighbors as well as the citizens within. If it wasn't for aid you guys would be just as bad off as the rest of them. I do not consider Apartheid politics to be progressive in any way. That was a thing of the past.

Originally posted by bombers8
Anything you have said about Mossad can just as easily be applied to Savak or a myriad of other inteligence organizations.

Savak doesnt exist any longer, its known as VEVAK. These organizations dont have the same resources that mossad does, mossad has the capabilities to reak more havoc than any arab militia in the world.

Hezbollah commits acts of terror. The Lebanese people harbor Hezbollah, and hide their weapons in mosques and schools.

Do you have any proof of this? Or you just going with what the FOX tells you? A minority of lebanese people harbor hezbollah, and surport its action in israel. (Befor the war)

The Lebanese people want this situation to continue, or else they would have asked the world community for help in enforcing Resolution 1559.

It has been said by critics of Resolution 1559 that trying to enforce it this time could spark another civil war in Lebanon, and this is the last thing the lebanese wanted.

The Lebanese people do not petition their gov't for removal of Hezbollah, nor are there demonstrations in the street against Hezbollah's terrorism.

Here is a quote from that was on JINSA Online. BY the way its 2005.

Indications are that the majority of Lebanese would like to see Hezbollah disarmed. Parliament member and editor of the Lebanese daily Al Nahar, Jubran Tweini, said on May 6, “[From the political standpoint,] Hezbollah frightens not only the Christian [citizens of Lebanon] but also the Sunni, Druze, and Shiite [citizens]... As long as Hezbollah continues [to hold] that Lebanon can be transformed into an Islamic republic, it endangers Lebanese identity.

www.jinsa.org... ticles.html/function/view/categoryid/884/documentid/3131/history/3,2360,884,3131

Until you accept these facts, you will never progress past where you are now.

I think you mean degress back to you line of though.

Bombers8 pretty much said it, Lebanon is still harboring this terrorist organization so as long they refuse to take any action against them, it is inevitable that they will have consquences for having them in their country. It's unfortunate, I do not want any innocents to die, but again, that is not the reality of war.

Perhaps I am not understanding why the majority of Lebanese refuse to take action against Hezbollah, can someone please explain that to me?

I am Lebanese and I am innocent in this matter.

the earth has cancer, its known as israel. the only cure is radiation treatment.


cureing the earth of its jews at the sub atomic level and its coming you yids and then us humans can talk peace for a change

Originally posted by ThePieMaN
I've not heard of many SAVAK incidences of spying on the USA. I have heard of Mossad spying on America.

You haven't heard of many incidents? In other words, you have heard of some..

I think its more the Israelis want it to continue. Thats pretty foolish to think civilians actually wish to be murdered.

What a ridiculous argument. Your gov't took a gamble by using Hezbollah to fight a war you wanted, but were incapable of carrying out yourselves. Now the chickens have come home to roost, and you are crying fowl!

In the 55 years your country has been in existence you are still at odds with neighbors as well as the citizens within. If it wasn't for aid you guys would be just as bad off as the rest of them. I do not consider Apartheid politics to be progressive in any way. That was a thing of the past.

We've been around a lot longer than 55 years, and a lot longer than your country has been. And we get along reasonably well with Canada and Mexico.

And I don't think you understand what apartheid is, else you wouldn't try to insert it into the discussion.

Originally posted by cavscout
Innocent Lebanese? Sorry, not in this universe

It would be very easy to say the same about Americans, depending on political bias. That's all you show with such a statement: your own political bias. Not one ounce of fact. As someone has stated before, Israeli actions at the current time would be akin to Britain bombing Ireland back to the stone age in retaliation for the IRA bombings. That's the IRA who had a large amount of support, and a large amount of funding from America. I guess they were "freedom fighters".

Originally posted by bombers8

We've been around a lot longer than 55 years, and a lot longer than your country has been. And we get along reasonably well with Canada and Mexico.

And I don't think you understand what apartheid is, else you wouldn't try to insert it into the discussion.

America Celebrated its 230th anniversary on July 4th 2006. Highly impossible a country given statehood in 1948 is older.



Yeah I don't know apartheid. Big walls with Israel on one side and Palestinians on the other side.

a·part·heid

An official policy of racial segregation formerly practiced in the Republic of South Africa, involving political, legal, and economic discrimination against nonwhites.

A policy or practice of separating or segregating groups.

The condition of being separated from others; segregation

The policy or practice of political, legal, economic, or social discrimination, as against the members of a minority group

Answers.com