17 year old girl kills herself because text message told her to

That sounds more like ideology than logic. Logic is looking at the evidence that has been demonstrated again and again by the islamic terrorists. And this is not only a problem in the US, this occurs everywhere in the world. Without a doubt I can say that Islam is the foundation for many of the terrorists that exist today.
As far as Christianity goes, I don't see any Baptists, Methodists or Presbyterians detonating themselves around innocent people, or crashing planes into buildings. The only cult that seems to revel in the death of innocents is Islam. So I believe I'm being fairly logical when I say Islam is a threat to world peace.

[edit on 19-7-2006 by laiguana]

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
As for Islam being the worlds problems, Deadboi brought up the logical falacy "Post hoc , ergo proctor hoc" Latin for ”after this, therefore because of this.” This seems to be another example of this logical falacy. Because countries to which Islam has spread are at war, you blame the religion for the lack of peace.

I would like to point out that radical Islam has made no bones about their holy war against Israel and the Great Satan.

I think this is a good example:

www.ict.org.il...

I can see my whole point was lost. You don't see methodists and baptists commiting honor killings because there was no cultural background of those activities. If Christianity had thrived in Turkey the way Islam did, I'd almost guarentee there'd be more Christian honor killings.

And I'm sure you didn't mean it when you said that Christians aren't terrorists, so I'm going to let that one go. I'll let you Google that one.

So basically what your point is that Islam is not to blame because of the way and location it "thrived". This excuse is baseless, redundant and in no way justifies the astrocities that Islam has commited. All I get from people (like yourself) that attempt to defend islam relentlessly is these "what if" arguments that do nothing but waste time on the REAL POINT, that being how we must deal with the disgrace that Islam is.

And I'm not going to deny that there are a fraction of non-muslim terrorists, including christians, but again this is out of bounds, the majority of terrorism in this world is due to Islam. End of story.

First of all, you claimed the correlation between Islam and savagery, not me. That means you need to prove it. Your attempts at doing so have been made with faulty logic and prejudice. So far you've done nothing to prove the point successfully.

Claiming that my arguement is 'baseless' in no way shows that your burden of proof has been met.

I need to prove it? LOL! Putting the topic of discussion to the side, I always thought actions spoke louder than words. I guess 9/11, Chechnya, HAMAS, Hezbollah and the Taliban don't mean anything. Well then, I won't even bother. Good day to you.

It would be easy for me to blame every white person for the the lynchings and murders of blacks in the south. I could also blame Christianity for the actions of the KKK. Of course, if I did, I would be ignoring at least a dozen other deciding factors. It's always a cop out to blame a race, or creed. I guess it is easier than finding the real cause of a problem.

Rasobasi420,

To understand where Islam is today, you have to look at Christianity 600 or so years ago. All kinds of nasty things were going on. Repression, inquisition, etc. The church would not allow anyone to learn to read because they may form their own interperitation of the bible, or worse, see that the church was violating the bible itself. The Papacy was often times more of a political position than spiritual, and it weilded true political power throughout Europe. While many Muslims are sensitive to the word "Crusade", they had their own version, moving across Spain and into Europe. Later, there was a reformation, which Islam has not had, and which they desperately need. Christianity have left the mentality they had during the Crusades behind for the most part, but Islam has not changed since then. They've maintained the same culture.

That is understood. My issue comes when it is the religion itself that is blamed, thereby blaming some guy in the American Midwest for the problems of the world. As I've said before, this is a cultural thing, and not something to be blamed on Islam.

I'll say it again, to blame Islam for these actions would be the same as blaming Christianity for the crimes commited by the KKK.

Then to the issue of honor killings, do you think it would be fair to blame sharia, instead of Islam?

Honor Killings have no place in Sharia. Most leaders condemn it as not being part of the religious doctrine. It's a regional, and cultural act, seperate from Islam and it's laws.

At this rate, I don't think you will hold anyone responsible. Here is a news link disputing your claim.

www.turkishdailynews.com.tr...

The person to be held responsible is the person who forced the girl into the act. Blaming the general religion would be inaccurate. One could blame the culture of the area, but in doing so, you must be careful not to place the blame on the wrong factors of that culture.

99% of turkish people don't eat pork, but that doesn't mean that pork has a quality that prevents honor killings.

Edit: there is no official church of turkey, it is a secular government. Judges do however, just as they do here, make judgements based on the their own moral ideals and on their culture.

[edit on 20-7-2006 by Rasobasi420]

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
The person to be held responsible is the person who forced the girl into the act. Blaming the general religion would be inaccurate. One could blame the culture of the area, but in doing so, you must be careful not to place the blame on the wrong factors of that culture.

Then please explain the religious/cultural/socio-economic/culinary factors that make it so popular in those countries, but unheard of here in industrialized nations, with the exception of those immigrants still imbedded within that culture?

What the state church of Turkey is, is irrelivant. This is not restricted to the borders of Turkey, and says nothing about the religion of the people living there.

Originally posted by hogtie
Then please explain the religious/cultural/socio-economic/culinary factors that make it so popular in those countries, but unheard of here in industrialized nations, with the exception of those immigrants still imbedded within that culture?

Don't know why. I could probably start an in depth research paper on the history of Turkey and Asia Minor, but I don't have the time. The fact still remains that people are placing the blame without any reasoning behind it other than circumstance and logical falacy.

If someone can show me that the religion of Islam is to blame, and not the lack of spruce trees in the area, I'm going to blame it on the lack of spruce.

What the state church of Turkey is, is irrelivant. This is not restricted to the borders of Turkey, and says nothing about the religion of the people living there.

I just thought I'd bring it up.

What I find so amusing is that when you ask a Muslim scholar about honor killings, they will deny that the Koran advocates it, and that may be entirely so, but when you ask them about terrorism, they say the exact same thing. Yet it is Muslims blowing stuff up. Homosexuality is also verboten by Islam, but in Afghanistan, where they practice honor killings, there is a little thing called "Man Day".

There sure are a lot of contradictions and a big common denominator.

I don't see how you can blame the actions of individuals on Islam though. Many people claim to be Muslim, and don't act the part. The same as many people claim to be Christian, and still have adulterous affairs or molest children, or in some other way disgrace the name. If the Quran forbids an act, and alleged Muslims commit the act anyway, how is one to blame the Quran? Wouldn't it make more sense to blame the individual? I'm sure Allah doesn't like it too much.

Originally posted by hogtie
There sure are a lot of contradictions and a big common denominator.

You're right. There is a common denominator. THERE ARE NO SPRUCE TREES IN THE MIDDLE EAST, AND SOUTHERN ASIA. Blame the lack of spruce.

[edit on 22-7-2006 by Rasobasi420]

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
Wouldn't it make more sense to blame the individual? I'm sure Allah doesn't like it too much.

[edit on 22-7-2006 by Rasobasi420]

And yet, in a society where violating the Koran means severe punishment, this goes unpunshished. Wear your beard too long or watch Titanic, and you go to jail. Kill your child, have a cookie.

Right, it's a seemingly unfair culture. But the religion itself has as much to do with it as the spruce trees.

Though I agree that when we see things wrong in the world we do have to take action and intervien, I think different situations call for different forms of interventions.

Changing honer killings will only be done by changing a cultural mind set. We can not go in with guns blazing and hope to bring about change, we have to try to change thing on different levels.

The same way it would be unfair for a strict nation to invade our society and do away with things and people they do not agree with. Eg. Many other cultures think our legalized abortions are wrong, pre-marital sex wrong, porn wrong, divorce wrong, etc. For them to come with guns blazing, and try to change us is wrong.

What we can do is make woman have more means, support grass root programs in those countries that help out girls, woman, survivors of attempted honour killings. Not everyone in these societies goes along with this, but enough do that change is required. Not every man in this society kills his wife or girl friend when they leave but enough do so that it's still a problem.

The girl killed herself because it would cause problems for her younger sisters. They too would have been shamed dishonoued unable to marry. Anyone ever see pride and prejudice? Or bride and prejudice, or bend it like beckham? Honour is not just your selfish needs, it reflects the whole. If one is dishonoured so is the whole. This in Japan and those countries works great for some situations and poorly for others, just like our culture works well for somethings and poorly for others.

Also speaking of guns blazing when we do invade other countries like Iraq do people realise that the rights of those woman has decreased significantly since the war? Also after the Taliban in Afganistan, there was a small period where woman's rights got better, but in the new constitution there rights from what I am understanding were not counted in, and many situations are going back to how things were during the taliban reign?

In the mean time we could use some work over here on child pornography, and the exploitation of woman in the porn industry and all those who still support it.

[edit on 27-7-2006 by Harassment101]