17 year old girl kills herself because text message told her to

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott

I don't know where you live or by whom you were raised, but the credo "Death before Dishonor" has been alive and well among US Marines for about 231 years and has been a part of Western culture for longer than that. What we have here is a matter of what we call honor. Even among Marines, murder of innocents is not a value and that is what we are discussing here.

[edit on 2006/7/18 by GradyPhilpott]

Excellent point about the Marines.

Originally posted by hogtie
I'm thinking that it would be possible to play upon their belief in a god that would condone such behavior. Take a guy who just stoned his daughter or sister, and put his head on a pike in the middle of town, with a sign that says, "God wants this to stop." So I'd rather not more be harmed than have to be, but most of your major revolutions came about from bloodshed.

So now you want to be the voice and hand of their god on Earth? I can see that going over very well

Yes major revolutions came about from bloodshed, I'm not saying that you can't force them to change by killing enough people I'm saying you shouldn't. You would think that a culture like ours that is more “civilized” would be able to do something better then resort to senseless slaughter like these “barbarians” who have a different culture then ours.

I am starting to see that you don't seem to care about their customs or culture that has been in place for hundreds of years, you just want "them" to be like "us" by any means necessary and you want it now. And that the best way to do that is to go on a wholesale slaughter.

Here's an extreme example:
Well since all the men are evil barbarians who kill their wifes and daughters we have to kill all of them. But then there are the mothers who also think that honor killing is right so we better kill all of them too. That leaves us with the children that we can mold in our own image and because the children won't have any knowledge of their former culture we can just pretend that it never existed.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Originally posted by hogtie
Excellent point about the Marine

So you agree that a marine should die before dishonoring the US Marines. But it should be ok for a family member to dishonor the family? Am I the only one who sees a double standard here?

I see it, I see it!!!

Watch Star Trek, and learn the Prime Directive.

Much of my morality is learned from Star Trek, except I highly doubt our 'Federation' is as benevolent as theirs.

Originally posted by deadboi

So now you want to be the voice and hand of their god on Earth? I can see that going over very well

Nope. Just trying to reach them at the 14th century level they are stuck at.

You would think that a culture like ours that is more “civilized” would be able to do something better then resort to senseless slaughter like these “barbarians” who have a different culture then ours.

What is it, then?

I am starting to see that you don't seem to care about their customs or culture that has been in place for hundreds of years, you just want "them" to be like "us" by any means necessary and you want it now. And that the best way to do that is to go on a wholesale slaughter.

If you mean "be like us" as in "do not have a policy of murdering our children because they were raped", I'd say you are correct. And yes, I want it now. That "custom" could have been in place since the dawn of time, but that doesn't mean that as a civilized, thinking individual, I should accept it on parity with a "custom" of not killing children. If I have raped and murdered all my life, do you avoid prosecuting me because it is just what I've always done? As far as the rest of the customs go, food, holidays, dress, architecture, art, music, these are all things that are diverse and creative. You want me to hate them because it would strengthen your idea that this is just bigoted destrution. But Jelaludin Rumi is one of the most underappreciated spiritual influences in the West. If only the mystical tradition that he left behind were realized globally... If only they were realized in the part of the world he was from! But you don't want to hear that. You just want to believe I am a close minded hater, and that acceptance, carte blanche, of all customs means mutual respect and that they will eventually do the right thing.

That leaves us with the children that we can mold in our own image and because the children won't have any knowledge of their former culture we can just pretend that it never existed.

See above.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

The road to complacency and stagnation is not paved at all.

So you agree that a marine should die before dishonoring the US Marines. But it should be ok for a family member to dishonor the family? Am I the only one who sees a double standard here?

You are missing the point of what sacrifice is to a Marine, and what death before dishonor means. During WWII, Marines had this habit of earning the Medal of Honor by dying so that their buddies wouldn't. This is only a double standard if the "honor killer" cuts his own throat to save his daughter's life. You have a parent who would face death to save his/her own child, which many civilized people do, then you can compare it with "death before dishonor". "I would die before I betray a brother in arms" should also mean "I will die before I let shame force me to hurt my own child". But it doesn't, does it?

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
I see it, I see it!!!

Watch Star Trek, and learn the Prime Directive.

Much of my morality is learned from Star Trek, except I highly doubt our 'Federation' is as benevolent as theirs.

I have yet to see this moral dilema in Star Trek. Yet if I had, I dare say Kirk or Piccard would have deviated from the prime directive. That's why they were heroic. Besides, they would have had to, because it makes a more interesting episode if they become involved, than it does if they just sit on the ship and watch. Its called tension and drama and is often found in FICTION!

Originally posted by hogtie
FICTION!

A few thoughts on this.

1. As far as you know, this story is fiction, but you would be willing to go in Guns a blazin' based on a random article.

2. The best way to know the true nature of man is through fiction. In a world with no real consequences one can do anything according to their true nature, without reprocusion.

3. Kirk would have gone bustin heads, but Picard wouldn't have. Picard was a wiser man, and know that changing the path of a culture has too many risks involved.

4. If you can't look at this case from an objective standpoint, as if it was fiction, then you've already lost. Too often emotion overclouds rationality. I hope I don't have to explain the dangers in that.

I'm a bit surprised that anyone finds this shocking, this is common in every day muslim life. There is nothing unusual about this case. It occurs frequently through-out muslim nations. Yes, Islam is a savage cult.

Originally posted by laiguana
I'm a bit surprised that anyone finds this shocking, this is common in every day muslim life. There is nothing unusual about this case. It occurs frequently through-out muslim nations. Yes, Islam is a savage cult.

This coming from a guy who worships Satan.


Islam isn't a savage cult any more than Satanists eat babies.

Originally posted by Rasobasi420

1. As far as you know, this story is fiction, but you would be willing to go in Guns a blazin' based on a random article.

This story doesn't have to be true to make honor killings real. If you don't know that, then you have no real understanding of the situation.

2. The best way to know the true nature of man is through fiction. In a world with no real consequences one can do anything according to their true nature, without reprocusion.

The best way to know the true nature of man is to live and watch. Tribbles < Heart of Darkness

3. Kirk would have gone bustin heads, but Picard wouldn't have. Picard was a wiser man, and know that changing the path of a culture has too many risks involved.

You have no idea how regretful I am that I actually replied to the Star Trek thing and participated in degenerating this subject to science fiction.

4. If you can't look at this case from an objective standpoint, as if it was fiction, then you've already lost. Too often emotion overclouds rationality. I hope I don't have to explain the dangers in that.

Are you suggesting that I treat the reports of honor killings as ufo sightings? Sorry. I've seen the evidence. What standard of proof do you require to take this out of the realm of fiction, that I should be viewing it as? Of course you don't have to explain what happens when emotion overclouds rationalilty. That's where honor killings come from. But not all deaths have to be irrational. Some are well thought out and calculated, and if it is instituted by a govt it may be called "war". Hence a war on the culture of honor killings.

Watching mankind only tells you what mankind does, not what mankind wants to do. There is a difference.

And again, for all you really know, honor killings don't exist. There are very few things that anyone really does know for sure.

And my overall beliefe is that confronting something YOU believe is wrong by enforcing something YOU believe is right only leads to others doing the same thing to you. Force is rarely the answer.

im a muslim and iv never herd of honor killing
killing yourself is wrong it would send you right in helll espacially in this case she didnt new her bor would kill her they were words words arent deeds
can some one explain me honor-killing?

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
Watching mankind only tells you what mankind does, not what mankind wants to do.

Then you have never watched, and seen intention. Its out there every day. The intention to do good, do bad, aspire, or do nothing. You can see it in actions. As friend of mine who is a paid writer says, "Writers are liars. They write about what other people live."

And again, for all you really know, honor killings don't exist. There are very few things that anyone really does know for sure.

If you are going to argue that honor killings may not exist, I suggest you re-read your original post. I'll let your conjecture that they may not exist speak for itself.

And my overall beliefe is that confronting something YOU believe is wrong by enforcing something YOU believe is right only leads to others doing the same thing to you. Force is rarely the answer.

Some things in the world are pretty basic. Killing a little girl because she was raped is wrong. I think that is a pretty easy one to come to a consensus on.

Inaction is rarely the answer either, unless your goal is to keep yourself safe.

Well BaCk2thereallife, it turns out that you are a savage who will kill members of your own family if they dishonor the family. Sorry to break the news, but you obviously don't know anything about your own people or culture.

(^ this is all not to be taken seriously. It's meant to show the uninformed the dangers of making mass generalizations like "Islam is this and that" without knowing anything other than what the media tells them. Please don't warn me.)

Originally posted by BaCk2thereallife
im a muslim and iv never herd of honor killing

killing yourself is wrong it would send you right in helll espacially in this case she didnt new her bor would kill her they were words words arent deeds
can some one explain me honor-killing?

That's because it is not something that is specifically part of Islam. It is a practice that is carried on in certain parts of the world, and have been associated with practioners of Islam and other religions as well. Here is a good source of information for you that argues from an Islamic standpoint that honor killings are not advocated by the Koran:

www.mwlusa.org...

BaCk2thereallife,

As far as comitting suicide, it was done to keep her brother from having to sin by murdering her. This goes hand in hand with devaluing the woman's life. It also devalues her soul. His soul is percieved as more valued than her's because she was female.

Here is a link to Wikipedia's definition of honor killing that might explain it better than I can.

en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by hogtie
What is it, then?

ASMA Society
Muslim Women must act in the service of their cause rather than expect others to do it for them.

polyzine.com..." target="_blank" class="postlink">Arab Women's Blood
Most often, the killings occur among the poorer and less educated, particularly in Arab tribal societies like Jordan's and the Palestinians, with long traditions of self-administered justice. The killings are rare among the educated and urbane.

We should provide knowledge and guidance instead of guns and bombs.

Originally posted by hogtie
If I have raped and murdered all my life, do you avoid prosecuting me because it is just what I've always done?

If you were in a country where that is illegal then you would have to be tried accordingly.

Originally posted by hogtie
You just want to believe I am a close minded hater, and that acceptance, carte blanche, of all customs means mutual respect and that they will eventually do the right thing.

Again I will say that I find it deplorable and that acts such as this should not take place. But I am not going to go in guns blazing. The people living within the culture have to make the change for themselves. Give a man a fish, teach a man to fish so to speak. Beat a man into submission, teach him the error of his ways is another way of looking at it.

Originally posted by hogtie
The road to complacency and stagnation is not paved at all.

Again, action must be taken, but not by us.


Things are changing, but it does take time for major social change.

polyzine.com..." target="_blank" class="postlink">Arab Women's Blood
"If you spit, does it come back clean?" said Sheik Ali al-Auteh, 57, a tribal leader, mocking the idea that honor could be cleansed with blood.
"A guy who kills might think that dishonor goes away," said his daughter, Yousra, 17. "But when he walks past, people will say, 'There goes the guy who killed his daughter.' "
...

In dozens of conversations in the Arab world in recent months, lawyers, laborers, clerics, cooks, physicians and politicians said most often that, personally, they could not condone honor killing. But most also said they felt the tug of traditions that could lead a man to kill, and some suggested that they would be inclined to act on them.

This is something that is so deeply a part of there culture and they truly believe they are doing the right thing.

polyzine.com..." target="_blank" class="postlink">Arab Women's Blood
More than pride, more than honesty, more than anything a man might do, female chastity is seen in the Arab world as an indelible line, the boundary between respect and shame. An unchaste woman, it is sometimes said, is worse than a murderer, affecting not just one victim, but her family and her tribe.

...

her family is ostracized, with her eight sisters deemed unmarriageable by the neighbors, and her five brothers confronted with taunts in the street.

I've read that one can judge how civilized a nation or culture is by how it treats its women. It's very much tied to economics and how that affects the value of life.

I'm not so sure there is that great a difference between the brutal oppression that condones honour killing and the heartless exploitation that condones pornography.

Originally posted by deadboi

We should provide knowledge and guidance instead of guns and bombs.

Ok. Now we're talking. I had to go back and check other posts and I think this is the first real suggestion of another way to do this. I know you mentioned letting them work through this themselves and providing an example, but both of those options did not seem like "active" options, and as for serving as an example, exposure to other cultures not their own is often very limited, even if they have relocated to more developed nations.

How do you suggest actively providing guidance. It seems as though there are activists working on such a thing, evidenced by web links that you and I have both posted. Provide them with aid? The first thing I think I would do is appeal to Bush to pressure the Afghanis to not re-instate the Virtue Police. Here is a link to a thread I started, with another link to the NPR story covering the Virtue Police. What good that was able to be done for the Afghanis could be undone very quickly if a Taliban-like rule of law was able to re-emerge.

www.abovetopsecret.com...'

If you were in a country where that is illegal then you would have to be tried accordingly.

But I think we can agree that human dignity demands that it be illegal everywhere.

Again I will say that I find it deplorable and that acts such as this should not take place. But I am not going to go in guns blazing. The people living within the culture have to make the change for themselves. Give a man a fish, teach a man to fish so to speak. Beat a man into submission, teach him the error of his ways is another way of looking at it.

Fair enough. I just want the world to get busy doing something, and as a big player in the world, the US should take the lead. So if we need to pressure govts, sneak in literature, whatever it takes to bring that society up to speed, let's get started. However, this too, is altering their culture, and I don't think anyone should offer apologies.

Again, action must be taken, but not by us.

I think we have to take the lead.

This is something that is so deeply a part of there culture and they truly believe they are doing the right thing.

If they were able to step back from their training and influence, and look at everything around them with an unvarnished eye, do you think they would approve of what they are doing to themsleves? I don't know, because I haven't decided whether humanity is basically good, bad, or indifferent. But I do know they need outside help. Why else do we have battered womens' shelters? And its not like they aren't asking. All of those links, all of the reports from human rights watch, they are all calls for help by the very people suffering. You just can't change it on your own, when livestock have more value in society than you do.

Originally posted by Rasobasi420

Originally posted by laiguana
I'm a bit surprised that anyone finds this shocking, this is common in every day muslim life. There is nothing unusual about this case. It occurs frequently through-out muslim nations. Yes, Islam is a savage cult.

This coming from a guy who worships Satan.


Islam isn't a savage cult any more than Satanists eat babies.

Why are you bringing up something off-topic? Satanism has nothing to do with this issue.
And I have seen enough evidence for me and apparantly a lot of people to determine that islam is a threat to peace and western civilization world-wide. And there's nothing that can deter me from this conclusion.

Actually, I thought it was pretty on topic. I saw a perfect example of prejudicial judgment of you and your faith based on biased information in your thread, then you turn around and do the same thing here.

As for Islam being the worlds problems, Deadboi brought up the logical falacy "Post hoc , ergo proctor hoc" Latin for ”after this, therefore because of this.” This seems to be another example of this logical falacy. Because countries to which Islam has spread are at war, you blame the religion for the lack of peace.

So I ask you, if christianity was the dominant religion, do you think the wars would stop, or the honor killings would never have been commited?