17 year old girl kills herself because text message told her to

Neither of these two high-profile cases involving Canadian girls had anything to do with Muslims. Yes, some Muslims practice honour killings, but it is not exclusive to Muslims by any means. It is a cultural thing, normally found in the Middle Eastern/Asian countries.

In the summer of 2003, Amandeep moved to Prince George to live with Todd. Then she went on one last holiday with her family to Vancouver.

Her father offered to drive her back to Prince George. It was somewhere during that trip that Amandeep was stabbed 11 times. Her father delivered her bloody body to Langley Memorial Hospital.

He told the staff she had committed suicide. But a pathologist who testified during the trial said some of the stab wounds were "inflicted after death."

www.cbc.ca...

In the cold end, it was her own mother who gave the final order to cut the young woman's throat. That's what police in India say.

They say the mother, an upstanding woman in Vancouver's Punjabi community, spoke into her cellphone across an ocean and told the men, "Kill her." And with the order -- with the death of Jaswinder Kaur Sidhu, a beautiful 25-year-old Indian Canadian woman known as Jassi -- the family's honor was restored, police say.

www.boston.com

Is this a problem that can be fixed? How do you reason with someone who thinks it is ok to cut the throat of his daughter because she was raped? Forced clitorectomies? Burning girls to death? Come on! Is this enough reason to declare war on a culture? It is time for our political correctness to come to a halt. Not all religions gain equal respect. Not all ideas earn equal respect. And not all cultures merit equal respect. If this is how a segment of the world wants to behave, then rational citizens of the world have every right to question their place in it.

That's one of the most extreme things I have ever heard of. I mean, she liked a boy and wanted to see him. It wasn't like she went to Las Vegas and starred in tons of trashy pornos. Even then, at worst in the US, she would be shunned by her family. Killed though? Not a chance.

This is why there is so much fighting and resentment in the world. We can't grasp the other culture's beliefs because we are all so different.

Originally posted by Truthwillsetyoufree

This is why there is so much fighting and resentment in the world. We can't grasp the other culture's beliefs because we are all so different.

But is a culture such as that worthy of being grasped? I certainly can not accept it, and I can not think of a rational argument to condone its toleration.

Originally posted by hogtie
Is this a problem that can be fixed? How do you reason with someone who thinks it is ok to cut the throat of his daughter because she was raped? Forced clitorectomies? Burning girls to death? Come on! Is this enough reason to declare war on a culture? It is time for our political correctness to come to a halt. Not all religions gain equal respect. Not all ideas earn equal respect. And not all cultures merit equal respect. If this is how a segment of the world wants to behave, then rational citizens of the world have every right to question their place in it.

How do you reason with someone who thinks it is ok to rape a girl because she is black? Or the beating, branding, and castration of a black person who was trying to escape from slavery? Or burning to death black people? It seems America was able to change it's ways, why is it so impossible for these cultures?

Originally posted by deadboi

How do you reason with someone who thinks it is ok to rape a girl because she is black? Or the beating, branding, and castration of a black person who was trying to escape from slavery? Or burning to death black people? It seems America was able to change it's ways, why is it so impossible for these cultures?

America was able to change its ways... after 620,000 people died and 141 years of reconstruction. And while racism was widespread, slave ownership and atrocities have been limited to a relatively small segment of the population, and even then it wasn't "accepted". There is was a reason why the Klan wore hoods. Point is, it took a war to stop, as well as the desire for internal change.

[edit on 18-7-2006 by hogtie]

Originally posted by hogtie
America was able to change its ways... after 620,000 people died and 141 years of reconstruction. And while racism was widespread, slave ownership and atrocities have been limited to a relatively small segment of the population, and even then it wasn't "accepted". There is was a reason why the Klan wore hoods. Point is, it took a war to stop, as well as the desire for internal change.

[edit on 18-7-2006 by hogtie]

Yes the change has to come about internally, there has to be a desire within the culture for it to change. How do you know that theses changes won't come about internally within these cultures? We can lead by example, but we cannot force our beliefs or way of life on them and expect them to be happy about it. How would America have reacted if some country had shown up at their doorstep with big guns and said "Be like us or else?".

[edit on 18-7-2006 by deadboi]

Further than that, what if an external government came in and told us that our criminals weren't criminals and needed to be released from jail. Though the invading force may not see criminal acts to be criminal, we do, and no dobt we would fight for our right to keep our own laws.

(not me mind you, I think many of our laws are completely off base.

Originally posted by deadboi
Yes the change has to come about internally, there has to be a desire within the culture for it to change. How do you know that theses changes won't come about internally within these cultures? We can lead by example, but we cannot force our beliefs or way of life on them and expect them to be happy about it. How would America have reacted if some country had shown up at their doorstep with big guns and said "Be like us or else?".
[edit on 18-7-2006 by deadboi]

I don't know, but how long do we wait? If we start now, maybe the current family that is murdering its children won't be happy with us, but what about the 10 year old girl a decade from now. She might be a little more happy that someone intervened. As for how would America act: It depends. Do you have Nazi Germany saying be like us, or do you have a large prosperous nation with a Bill of Rights that is constantly under scrutiny to ensure freedom, come knocking on our door.

What if Great Britain had decided that slavery was bad for us the same time they abolished it on their side of the pond. How much sooner would slavery have ended had they intervened then?

The point is, all cultures are just not equal. To say that a culture of freedom is equal to a culture of repression is a recipie for never ending conflict.

Originally posted by hogtie
I don't know, but how long do we wait? If we start now, maybe the current family that is murdering its children won't be happy with us, but what about the 10 year old girl a decade from now. She might be a little more happy that someone intervened. As for how would America act: It depends. Do you have Nazi Germany saying be like us, or do you have a large prosperous nation with a Bill of Rights that is constantly under scrutiny to ensure freedom, come knocking on our door.

What if Great Britain had decided that slavery was bad for us the same time they abolished it on their side of the pond. How much sooner would slavery have ended had they intervened then?

The point is, all cultures are just not equal. To say that a culture of freedom is equal to a culture of repression is a recipie for never ending conflict.

I don't recall every saying they were equal, and do not condone what they do. I cannot condemn what they do either however because if you look at our history, including pre 16th century Europe we have done acts just as brutal as them for reasons just as obscure.

We as the “West” didn't have an example to look up, we had to forge it out for ourselves. And now that we have a culture designed to ensure rights and freedoms we can be an example to them, but they will still need to figure things out on their own and work them into their culture. Change, lasting change, does not come about overnight and it can't be bullied into place.

To just do as you suggest and declare war on their culture and start killing them for their beliefs and way of life would be genocide. (insert sarcasm here) Or at least kill them until they submit and become just like us, I'm sure it wouldn't take very long because history has shown that these cultures give up easily and I'm sure there wouldn't be and kind of deep harbored resentment.

Originally posted by deadboi

To just do as you suggest and declare war on their culture and start killing them for their beliefs and way of life would be genocide. (insert sarcasm here) Or at least kill them until they submit and become just like us, I'm sure it wouldn't take very long because history has shown that these cultures give up easily and I'm sure there wouldn't be and kind of deep harbored resentment.

To semi-quote Jayne Cobb: "What are you gonna' do? Talk em' to death?"

I'm just throwing out ideas, and right now I'm not hearing a lot of other solutions.

1) Do you agree that it should stop?

2) If so, how do you propse stopping it?

Originally posted by hogtie
To semi-quote Jayne Cobb: "What are you gonna' do? Talk em' to death?"

I'm just throwing out ideas, and right now I'm not hearing a lot of other solutions.

1) Do you agree that it should stop?

2) If so, how do you propse stopping it?

1) Yes, personally I think it is deplorable. However I have been raised in a different culture. For someone in their culture it would be seen as normal and/or justified.

2) They have to want it to stop and make changes for themselves. To force our culture on them would be, in essence, destroying that culture. Instead, it has to evolve on it's own.

Originally posted by deadboi

1) Yes, personally I think it is deplorable. However I have been raised in a different culture. For someone in their culture it would be seen as normal and/or justified.

2) They have to want it to stop and make changes for themselves. To force our culture on them would be, in essence, destroying that culture. Instead, it has to evolve on it's own.

But why must we suspend judgement on something obviously wrong? The fact that they see it as normal is the first indicator that there is a problem with their value system. I don't understand why it is bad to judge that. "Cultural diversity" is only valid as long as long as you meet a base line on a moral common ground. Murdering children is not it.

If we are to let it evolve on its own, then why are we even talking about it? Obviously someone wants action taken because we have a) the news story, b) someone posting the news story, and c) people responding to the post. But what is the action to be taken? Personally I'm not happy with looking at the numbers of honor killings in 5 years and thinking to myself, "hmmm... the numbers have went down %2." What if they've gone up? Left to themselves they've developed a hotbed of terrorism throughout the Middle East, India, and Southeast Asia.

Originally posted by hogtie
But why must we suspend judgement on something obviously wrong? The fact that they see it as normal is the first indicator that there is a problem with their value system. I don't understand why it is bad to judge that. "Cultural diversity" is only valid as long as long as you meet a base line on a moral common ground. Murdering children is not it.

Wow, I bet this is what Europeans said when they first met the Native Americans (minus the murder part). To a person who's lived their entire life as a vegitarian, the first time they see someone eat a cow, they would be outraged and disgusted. Different is just different.

I agree that if change is to occur, it has to happen of the people's own accord.

[edit on 18-7-2006 by Rasobasi420]

Originally posted by Rasobasi420

Wow, I bet this is what Europeans said when they first met the Native Americans (minus the murder part). To a person who's lived their entire life as a vegitarian, the first time they see someone eat a cow, they would be outraged and disgusted. Different is just different.

[edit on 18-7-2006 by Rasobasi420]

Wow. I'm... suprised. I would almost think that you hadn't started this thread. You did have a problem with what happened, didn't you? Are you really comparing the difference in cultures that kill children to asuage family shame with eating habits? If you are going to do that, why didn't you contrast societies that still practice cannibalism with those who don't? That would be more appropriate. But, different is just different? Is that what you tell a child who has been doused with gasoline? If that's how you feel, why didn't you title the thread "Honor Killings: Different is Just Different". Just remember that the Taliban had a way working things out from the inside: shooting women in a soccer stadium.

Well, It's a horrible thing. Like I said I couldn't imagine doing this. But you seem to be looking at it through your eyes only. If I was raised to believe that honor is the most important thing in life, and more important than life itself, who knows what I would do. The point is that if they are going to come out of this, they aren't going to do it by having someone point a gun at them.

As for comparing eating habits, how many men, women and children were slaughtered because they were thought of as savages and barbarians because of their daily habits. Hell, it's even going on today. Making such definitive judgements of cultures, and people only leads to hatred and destruction.

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
If I was raised to believe that honor is the most important thing in life, and more important than life itself, who knows what I would do. The point is that if they are going to come out of this, they aren't going to do it by having someone point a gun at them.

Bushido and WWII. Pointing a gun worked pretty well, and now Japan seems to be quite successful, and peaceful.

As for comparing eating habits, how many men, women and children were slaughtered because they were thought of as savages and barbarians because of their daily habits.

Lots. But wouldn't it have been nicer if they hadn't been? Maybe if it had been... stopped?

Hell, it's even going on today.

Once again, do you think it should be stopped? Its a very simple yes or no question. The how can come after the commitment to end the behavior.

Making such definitive judgements of cultures, and people only leads to hatred and destruction.

No. The failure to comndemn such behavior on a rational basis enables destruction. What do I care if a man who would kill his daughter for being raped hates me? Hell, that's a badge of honor. Oh no! Child murderers think I'm bad! Call my therapist!

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
If I was raised to believe that honor is the most important thing in life, and more important than life itself, who knows what I would do.

I don't know where you live or by whom you were raised, but the credo "Death before Dishonor" has been alive and well among US Marines for about 231 years and has been a part of Western culture for longer than that. What we have here is a matter of what we call honor. Even among Marines, murder of innocents is not a value and that is what we are discussing here.

www.strategosinc.com...

[edit on 2006/7/18 by GradyPhilpott]

Originally posted by hogtie
Bushido and WWII. Pointing a gun worked pretty well, and now Japan seems to be quite successful, and peaceful.

Perhaps you are forgetting that this only came about after the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki resulting in the death of an estimated 214,000 people most of whom where civilians.

Should we go in and slaughter a few 100,000 innocent women and children so that we can save the innocent women and children from possibly being killed for disobeying the customs of their society?

Originally posted by deadboi

Perhaps you are forgetting that this only came about after the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki resulting in the death of an estimated 214,000 people most of whom where civilians.

Indeed I am not forgetting. That is exactly my point. Violence halted the war, and changed a culture that was devastating to its young soldiers and civilians. The dropping the atom bomb isn't the best case to use, since the actual invasion of Japan would have cost many more lives, both Japanese and US.

Should we go in and slaughter a few 100,000 innocent women and children so that we can save the innocent women and children from possibly being killed for disobeying the customs of their society?

That is not the best alternative, but it would make an impact.

I'm calling it "culture" because that is how people posting on this thread chose to define it. You can't say all "Muslims" do it, nor can you say all "Pakistanis". Likewise you can't say that all members of a town do it. But however you want to define this segment of population that sees this as appropriate, there needs to be a strong message sent. I'm thinking that it would be possible to play upon their belief in a god that would condone such behavior. Take a guy who just stoned his daughter or sister, and put his head on a pike in the middle of town, with a sign that says, "God wants this to stop." So I'd rather not more be harmed than have to be, but most of your major revolutions came about from bloodshed.