Israel Attacks South Beirut

Originally posted by xmotex
Has it ever occurred to any of Israel's monomaniacal apologists that if Israel would stop attacking Lebanon every few years Hezbollah wouldn't exist?!

I'd like to ask you this - lets see if you know history. When was the last time Israel attacked Lebanon and under what pretext was it?

See my previous post too.

[edit on 17/7/06 by JudahMaccabbi]

I read in the paper today that most of the missles fired by Hez actually end up in the sea because they're junk. Is it possilbe that they might be firing them on military targets and end up elsewhere?

Originally posted by JudahMaccabbi
Have we all forgotten that the side that is intentionally and solely attacking civilian populations…

Yes we have because both sides are doing the exact same thing; Israeli tactics are just as bad as those of Hezbollah. Hezbollah is a terrorist organization, they get no sympathy from me and I don’t condone their actions, my concern is for the Lebanese people. If Israel wants to go after Hezbollah to make sure its cities and people are safe then fine, I don’t question their right to defend themselves; I question their tactics and strategy. Going after key civilian areas and infrastructure to me does not seem like a good strategy, unless your plan is massive collateral damage and a high death toll.


[edit on 17-7-2006 by WestPoint23]

Haifa, etc. are being hit because Hezbollah doesn't have anything that can be targeted precisely enough to hit a military installation - it appears Hezbollah is fresh out of JDAM's and Hellfires. However they can fire a rocket and be reasonably sure it will land in a given city. And no, it's not OK. Then again neither are Israel's attacks on civilian targets in Lebanon. As I have said a million times it seems: live by the sword, die by the sword. Israel's attacks against Hezbollah were not unprovoked, but Israel chose a massive escalation by attacking Lebanon in general, and are now seeing the results of that escalation.

And the argument that Israel was targeting a rocket site is possible, but iffy IMHO. Reporters at the scene said nothing about a rocket site nearby. More likely the Israeli's simply saw a van moving in an area declared a free-fire zone and hit it. My conversations with Israelis (including yourself) have not indicated anything but contempt for the lives of Arabs in general, whether they're attacking Israel or not. The current slaughter of Lebanese civilians only makes it clearer.

This woman for example, she was guilty of driving across a bridge:

Then again, she was merely an Arab, and thus an untermenschen to you folks anyway

Screw Israel. Every bit of trouble Israel has recieved they have brought upon themselves. And I'm sick of seeing my tax dollars paying for it.


[edit on 7/17/06 by xmotex]

xmotex,
I appreciate your peaceful mindset. I wish it were that easy.
I do not hate Arabs. I work with Arabs and have Arab relatives. What I do hate is the maniacal Islamic ramblings. If you listen to what they say then you will understand.

In order to understand Israel's actions you need to experience the daily life here and understand the mentality of the regon.


This is not europe, the US or the far east. This is a region where there is a dark ages mentality with modern day weaponry. I am happy the US leadership understands that at least.

Originally posted by JudahMaccabbiThis is a region where there is a dark ages mentality with modern day weaponry.

In this conflict, the side that has the modern day weaponry is Israel. I must conclude from your statement that you are asserting the existence of "dark ages mentality" in that country.

I am happy the US leadership understands that at least.

Whay are you thinking that? Because we are supplying you with the modern age weaponry?

The United States leadership understands nothing.

To quote George Carlin about George Bush..."He is a man who knows nothing about history being lead by ones who care nothing for it." He may be a comedian (Carlin that is) but he nailed that one right on the head.

We are being lead by a bunch of ideologues who would rather slit somebody else's throat (after all their's is too precious....bunch of !@#$% chicken hawks) than change their opinions about anything.

So in all likelyhood the situition over there will just get worse and worse. At least Clinton made an effort, George doesn't even care.

Israelis Palestinians...two of the most boneheaded, stubborn people on the planet. You deserve each other.

There could be peace there if the Israelis would acknowledge that the Palestinians have some seriously legitimate gripes and can the promised land crap AND if the Palestinians were willing to compromise.

Won't happen too damned stubborn, the both of ya...so the bleeding will continue.

Originally posted by grover
The United States leadership understands nothing.

To quote George Carlin about George Bush..."He is a man who knows nothing about history being lead by ones who care nothing for it." He may be a comedian (Carlin that is) but he nailed that one right on the head.

We are being lead by a bunch of ideologues who would rather slit somebody else's throat (after all their's is too precious....bunch of !@#$% chicken hawks) than change their opinions about anything.

So in all likelyhood the situition over there will just get worse and worse. At least Clinton made an effort, George doesn't even care.

Israelis Palestinians...two of the most boneheaded, stubborn people on the planet. You deserve each other.

There could be peace there if the Israelis would acknowledge that the Palestinians have some seriously legitimate gripes and can the promised land crap AND if the Palestinians were willing to compromise.

Won't happen too damned stubborn, the both of ya...so the bleeding will continue.

And you, mister man of the world, if you where so knowledable in history and the Arab-Israeli conflict you would have known that Israel has Withdrawn West bank and from Gaza, Dismantled settlements and even given the Palestinians a country de-facto with an army force all the while, during this time the Palestinians have waged a war of terrorism on Israel from every inch of land Israel withdrew from. Statistics have it that more Israelis have been killed by terrorism after the OSLO accords than before it. So don;t start throwing around generalized and unknowledgable statements.
Israel has tried almost everything to appease the Palestinians there are certain red lines that cannot be crossed.

Aelita,

You know quiet well that Iran has weapons of mass destruction as well as Syria. Hezbullah is supplied by Iran and so are the Palestinians. If you think Israel has a 'middle age' mentality and those country's do not then you are obviously under the influence of various hallucinagens.

[edit on 17/7/06 by JudahMaccabbi]

And Israel has built a security wall that gobbles up Palestinian land where ever it can....it has planted settlements all over the so-called Palestinian state so that it can never really be free of Israel, it has made that so called Palestinian state a client state so that it cannot exist without Israel. It closes borders whenever it choses, keeps farmers out of their own lands, treats its Arab population like second class citizens...bombs people (like in Lebanon) in retaliation for militant attacks and generally behaves like it can do damned well what it likes which of course it can because the American government kisses its ass. That unilateral support for Israel regardless of its behaviour is one of the sources of resentment of the United States in that part of the world.

Thing is the Palestinians are a bunch of boneheaded idiots too.

Thing is I don't hate Israel or Jews...So like I am Scot/English, no big deal so don't give me that anti-semitism bullhooey; I just don't buy into the propaganda of poor abused Israel. It takes two baby two... and, from what I have read, seen and heard....the both of ya, Israel and Palestine are guilty as all hell. Neither of you are innocents.

Personally I think that the world should arm Palestine to the same level that Israel is...seal the borders and look the other way and whoever walks out becomes an international parriah.

Originally posted by grover
Personally I think that the world should arm Palestine to the same level that Israel is...

Grover, we could be waiting for quite a long time for the "world" to arm Palestine.

How about that: we stop spending our hard earned tax dollars on subsidizing Israel and its military. That would even out the field and put some change in our pockets.

Grover,

Don't bother. Your mindset is one that cannot comprehend the mentality of the middle east and therefore you speak as you do. You cannot understand or believe that the Palestinians or for that matter all the Arabs use their own citizenry as shields for their military ambitions. Sadaam Hussein let his people suffer for years while supporting terrorist elements. Iran does the same and brutally represses those who wish for moderation. Hezbullah fires missiles on Israel from residential areas and when Israel attacks those launchers and kill civilians people like you make a ruccous instead of blaming Hezbullah. When Palestinians use every civilian infrastructure available to attack Israel you don't seem to finch but G-d forbid that Israel responds.
Israel withdrew from Gaza and there were daily rocket attacks on Israel. Israel withdrew from Lebanon Hezbullah stages more than 40 attacks on Israel. The west bank is relatively calm. What would happen if Israel withdraws. Hamas has stated repeatedly THAT aLL OF ISRAEL IS OCCUPIED TERRITORY, so has Hizbullah. We see where this is leading.

If Palestinians did not endlessly attack Israel the separation barrier would not have been necessary. OK Palestinians are cut off from their land? How many are actually affected byt his?
All I know is that since the fence was erected the amount of Palestinian attacks from the West Bank decreased significantly. So my thoughts are hey the fense reduces friction and saves lives of me and my family so I am happy. Israelis are not the one lobbing missiles at Palistinians for no reason, Israelis are not the ones engaging in a strategy of random killing of civilians. Israel has been reacting to aggressions ever since its conception and not initiating.

So believe what you like but so long as we are attacked we will defend ourselves by bringing the war to the enemy. We are a small country that can't afford to fight on our territory. We are resolved and we intend on surviving at all costs.

Originally posted by JudahMaccabbi
We are a small country that can't afford to fight on our territory. We are resolved and we intend on surviving at all costs.

That is absolutely fine as long as we (the US) stay out of this. I wish you the best of fortitude and luck and my heart goes out to you.

Now, let's stop sending armaments to Israel and vetoing every single resolution that is critical of this cute Mediterranean state.

PS. It's very rich of you to be condescending to Grover. His country is paying a dear price for your land grabs. Have respect, dude, and don't spit in the hand that's feeding you.



[edit on 17-7-2006 by Aelita]

I have read enough history of the conflict to understand that both sides have blood on their hands and that neither side, Palestine, or Israel are innocent. That is the root of my feelings about what is going on in your region. Doesn't matter though, in 40 years or so, the Jews will be out bred by the Arabs in their own country, not to mention the Palestinians of Gaza and the West Bank and you will be forced by population issues alone to become a joint Israeli/Palestinian state whether you like it or not, that is unless the ruling party there prefers to set up an aparthid system. In all reality a joint state is the only answer as it is but no one wants to admit it.

If the Bush administration had any balls it would cut off all funding to both sides until both sides sat down and seriously started working things out. The rest of the world is sick to death of your bloody bickering.

JudahMaccabbi I think just about everyone keeping up with the Mid-East crisis of the day is aware of the Palestinian mindset. We are also aware of the Israeli mindset. The greed and stubborness of both sides is apalling and most of us are simply fed up with it all. You know as well as anyone that the Israeli response being carried out in Lebanon is far disproportionate to the offenses the Israelis have endured over the years. Your country's atitude seems to be one of: If you kick dust on my shoes I'm going to drop a mountain on your head. That would be all well and good if the only people involved were adults, but that is not the case. Your current actions are only cementing the bitterness and hatred of yet another generation of Arabs.

Excellent post Astromner excellent post. Very concise. Note, Astromner is a conservative and I am a liberal and we both agree on this subject...I would say that it suggests something about the nature of Arab/Israeli conflict when we see eye to eye.

2 Big Israeli responses:

"They are trying to push us into the sea"


ec.europa.eu...


"Iran would like to blow up israel with WMD's"


www.isracast.com...

Who's pushing who into the sea and who's got the nukes?

Mod Edit: Image Hotlinking – Please Review This Link.

[edit on 17/7/2006 by Mirthful Me]

Originally posted by XyZeR
Excuse me, but Mexico isn't OCCUPYING any American land.... so your comparison is a poor one to say the least.

I hope I'm reading your reply correctly (if not, I appoligize), but there are many Mexican nationals who feel that California rightfully belongs to them, and that it was stolen from them by Americans. America is (in a sense) occupying what was once Mexico's land. Fortunately we don't have any Mexican extremists blowing up any buildings, or themselves in order to get that land back. Some would argue they're trying to take back California by playing politics, and crossing the border legally and illegaly.

I realize that some Palestinians and some Mexicans are motivated to get their land back for different reasons, but had Mexico been carrying out these type of attacks on the U.S. for 40 years, it would have seen America's anger long ago.

Fact is,....borders have been changing for centuries through violent conflicts. Most countries defeated in combat accepted these changes through various methods, but some countries simply cannot let go of the past, or accept defeat for the sake of peace. I'll use my own home country as an example; CzechoSlovakia has been the victim of it's every neighboring country, and even countries it didn't border! It's land has been taken by Hungary, Poland, Austria, Germany, Russia,.....and even the Turks! (The Hungarians try even to this day to gain political control of it, fortunately it isn't working). My people have even been victims of genocide thanks to Hungary. Yet..... here we are,... living peacefully side by side. None of my people go over to Hungary to blow themselves up. None of them shoot rockets into Hungarian neighborhoods. We're happy we can live peacefully side by side, hoping/knowing the world wouldn't tolerate Hungary attacking us, and taking more land from us without a perfectly justified reason. We're just 5 million people. I have no idea how we managed to even keep a country of our own with so many enemies around us, but I'm proud to say we haven't resolved to firing rockets at our neighbors and killing their civilians in order to retaliate for the land taken from us. We fought our enemy as long as our little population could handle it, but I think we realized early on that diplomacy and gaining influential allies was the best way to avoid further violence.

I STRONGLY believe that Palestine would have more support from the world if they stopped attacking Israel, and worked with what they have left. I think more people would then look at Israel as the bad guy. Who knows, maybe Israel and Palestine would be able to coexist,.... even merge into one nation, knowing that Jews and Muslims can coexist, having religious tolerance and equal respect for each other. The land (in a way) would belong to both people, the way it did so many centuries before.

Both Israel and Palestine is to blame for the conflict, but for Hezbollah to continue to attack Israel when it KNOWS Israel will retaliate 100 fold, sometimes it couldn't be seen as anything else but a death-wish. Not only are they killing Israeli citizens, they are also partly responsible for the death of the Lebanese people, because they have given Israel a reason to retaliate! They knew this would happen! If you know you're risking the lives of your own people, yet go forward with the attack against a more powerful nation, I can't see that any other way than purposely risking the fact that you're sacrificing the lives of your own people.

When Israel gave up the Gaza strip, I was happy to see it. Yet now I see this event in a different light. Instead of viewing this as a peace offering, Hezbollah probably saw it as a victory which they themselves earned by way of violent attacks on Israel. I think it may have served as encouragement to keep going, to keep blowing things up in hope that Israel will continue to give up more and more land to Palestine. Funny how what is viewed to be the land of God seems to be one of the most violent places on this planet. Just an observation. This is a very sad situation.

Well ya know it was precisely the world's indifference to the Palestinian plight that caused them to resort to violence in the first place in late 60's and early 70's. Generally speaking I guess it was felt that they didn't have anything to lose. Terrorism is how poor people without much of a chance, fight wars.