Super-Hacker Gary McKinnon Will Be Extradited To United States

dubiousone out of respect for ATS I wont say much more but if you cannot see the irony and hypocrisy in your post then I truly don’t know what to say.

I'm quite surprised at some people's reactions to this.

This guy has done, (rightly or wrongly) something and allegedly seen some things that any self respecting ATS member would give his grandmother away to pull off.

I am a little sceptical about this "UFO" evidence and find it hard to believe he has no records of his findings. I think this could be a clever ploy to raise awareness of his upcoming trial and presumably garner support.

But utmost respect to the guy, I think you may be being a little harsh comparing him to a "script kiddie". How many hacking attempts do you think are made daily on NASA and the DOD?

Hackers typically enjoy fantasy. I would wager he found something which he interpreted in a manner to his liking, fluffed it up a bit, and pride did the rest.

An example would be the controversy over the _NSAKEY found in Windows. Some windows developer (probably a hacker in their youth) stumbled upon it and got excited at the prospect that they had discovered some secret government bit of spyware.

>

How many hacking attempts do you think are made daily on NASA...

LOL. Oh how I miss Telenet.

[edit on 9-7-2006 by apc_broken]

Westpoint23 says:
dubiousone out of respect for ATS I wont say much more but if you cannot see the irony and hypocrisy in your post then I truly don’t know what to say.

There was neither irony nor hypocrisy in my post. Those little off-topic seeds of disinformation pop up all over ATS and very often in items posted by the well-known worshipers of the current powers that be. I made my point and will not comment further about it on this thread.

Here is a link on Google Video to a documentary about hacking for those of you who aren't very familiar with it.

video.google.com...

Also,a strange coincidence (hopefully just a coincidence).At the end of part 2 of the documentary there is a section called hacker lore.One of the guys tells a story about a hacking group that was supposedly obsessed with finding secret government files to prove that aliens exist.Allegedly they did,and posted the files.The guy says,that the rumor was they were arrested,and were never heard from again.

Just thought this was kind of along the lines of this same "hacking for proof of ET's"
story.

The US has been accsued for years of covering up ET's infomation, and we mere mortals will never know the truth as the people in power deem we dont need to know.

Untill such time as ET decides to land in a public place, live on sky news or CNN then they cant cover that up. trust me they will try, im sure sky or cnn will suddenly experince techincal diffuclties.

But as for mckinnon finding photos and a excel spreadsheet with Non terristal officer listed on it??? wheres the proof, surely if you found this stuff wouldnt you make sure you had proof to back up ure claims + He only had a 56K modem??

My god man how did he even manage to hack anything with a dial up modem, next thing you will tell me he was using AOL as well

The US Cant send him to Gitmo can they??? surely he not a terriost , i was gonna say he's not a threat to national secuirty but he is technially.

Originally posted by apc
I'll get started printing the 'FREE GARY' bumperstickers for everyone.

I don't quite see how he can be extradited. But if he is, I have to wonder how popular he will be when he gets here.

Yup its great PR work bt the Government... If they really are hiding something, the focus on this guy will distract for a long time...Afterall Roswell is getting old...

His sentence may be harsh, and we all want to know what he saw... and we may sympathize with his quest... but consider this if he was an Iraqi, not a Brit... would you bfeel differently? Uh huh thought so.

Originally posted by snakebite
The US has been accsued for years of covering up ET's infomation, and we mere mortals will never know the truth as the people in power deem we dont need to know.

There is one way to find out. Become one of those people in power, or at least high enough on the clearance list...

But then... you would have to sign a gag order or be charged with treason...

Now wouldn't that suck?

You KNOW... You want to tell all your old UFO buddies... but now you can't. That's just got to eat at you...

Hackers cost my company a lot of money and trouble... hacking into Defense computers is just bad news for all of us. Lock him up and toss away the key... Maybe it will curb it a little.

You have voted clearwater for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

Hear, hear!

Now back to McKinnon.

The Court had to get assurances from the US that Mr McKinnon will not be tried by a military tribunal, will be eligible for parole and will not have to serve his sentence at Guantanamo Bay. District Judge Nicholas Evans, who ruled in the case, said he had received assurances that Mr McKinnon would be tried in a federal court in Virginia.

Gary is not going to Gitmo, so US government's PR staff here can calm down.

Before he packs his bags to USA, he must receive an order from the Secretary of State, who has to inform him that he can appeal to High court, so it's not over yet.

To Whom it may concerne:

Extradition Act 2003 part 1
Extradition Act 2003 part 2

Personally I think this Extradiction Act is one shamefull document (remember Alex Stone). It states that US doesn't have to prove virtualy anything to achieve extradiction of an UK citizen. They are also not obligated to give any information, but UK has to. I ask myself, why was this Act ever put to power and the answer is quite simple. It's those darn pesky "terrorists" again.

Originally posted by zorgon
Hackers cost my company a lot of money and trouble... hacking into Defense computers is just bad news for all of us. Lock him up and toss away the key... Maybe it will curb it a little.

How do they cost you money? By forcing you to fix security problems? I would think you should feel gratitude, not spite. If you have suffered data loss and damage, then it is not hackers that have been your problem. Which would you prefer? Some hacker compromise your security making the problem known to you, or some cracker compromise your security, steal your data, and wipe your drives?

In my youth it was customary to alert an administrator once their security had been defeated. Typically a quick note in the message of the day "This box has been owned. Update your sendmail." or whatever applicable. Then kill the startup network services and reboot the box. That way the vulnerable system is off the network and a sys admin should become aware of it quickly. Sometimes a phone call was appropriate, usually with an angry admin on the other end. The still fixed the problem. So much for pride...

McKinnon is right on the line between hacker and cracker. If the data he was allegedly seeking had been for financial gain or to cause harm to the US, he would be fully under the domain of the cracker.
If it is found that he does not fit the character of a cracker, he should of course still be punished. But his crime is nowhere near severe enough to warrant throwing away the keys... If anything he saved our government money and lives. Six months in jail and a few years probation. And then maybe give him a job.

Originally posted by dubiousone

Malganis_7/9/2006 at 05:38 AM says:
Yes but Bin Laden was a terrorist leader who admitted being behind 9/11, which cost lives and damage.

How does that relate to this thread?

Most here are aware that Bin Laden publicly denied involvement in 911 and that the post 911 videos of Bin Laden supposedly admitting involvement are fakes.

Off-topic misinformation such as this occurs regularly on ATS. It's a subtle and effective method of propaganda. Do the mods and others filter it out and ignore it, or does it seep into your subconscious and subtly influence your points of view.

[edit on 7/9/2006 by dubiousone]

What the hell are you on about; "How does that relate to this thread"? I was responding to something someone had said. Is that not allowed?

You obviously just read parts of a post then quickly reply with a snide comment to make youself seem superior. Read the whole of my post and you'll see that I quoted someone so that you could see what I was referring to then gave my view on it. What's wrong with that?

Originally posted by apc_broken

Originally posted by zorgon
Hackers cost my company a lot of money and trouble... hacking into Defense computers is just bad news for all of us. Lock him up and toss away the key... Maybe it will curb it a little.

How do they cost you money? By forcing you to fix security problems? I would think you should feel gratitude, not spite.

That is the lamest apology for McKinnon going around these days. Put simply, the ends do not justify the means. Period. The man was trespassing, no different than if he was trespassing on government or private property, despite posted warnings.

Using you logic, if someone breaks my front window and burglarizes my homes, I should say "Gee, I'm so glad that robber pointed out the vulnerability of my flimsy front window pane. I need to upgrade to iron bars and a home alarm system. Its a good thing only a few minor things were stolen, and I didn't lose it all. I need to track down that robber and give him a big pat on the back".

If you have suffered data loss and damage, then it is not hackers that have been your problem. Which would you prefer? Some hacker compromise your security making the problem known to you, or some cracker compromise your security, steal your data, and wipe your drives?

This point is irrelevant, because unauthorized access is a crime just as intentionally damaging an IS is a crime. B&E versus theft - both are felonies.

In my youth it was customary to alert an administrator once their security had been defeated. Typically a quick note in the message of the day "This box has been owned. Update your sendmail." or whatever applicable. Then kill the startup network services and reboot the box. That way the vulnerable system is off the network and a sys admin should become aware of it quickly. Sometimes a phone call was appropriate, usually with an angry admin on the other end. The still fixed the problem. So much for pride...

The point is also moot, as McKinnon made no attempt to notify any of the organizations he victimized that he had penetrated their defenses.

McKinnon is right on the line between hacker and cracker. If the data he was allegedly seeking had been for financial gain or to cause harm to the US, he would be fully under the domain of the cracker. If it is found that he does not fit the character of a cracker, he should of course still be punished. But his crime is nowhere near severe enough to warrant throwing away the keys... If anything he saved our government money and lives. Six months in jail and a few years probation. And then maybe give him a job.

Just because he did not gain financially from the crime does not lessen the offense. Saving our government money and lives? I'd really like to get my hands on some of what your smokin', friend.

And BTW, despite popular opinion, the US gov't is not in the business of hiring and employing criminal hackers to staff their IA functions. I have seen this firsthand. There are plently of trustworthy non-felons who are adept at hacking and cracking, who can be trusted to stay on the reservation......

You have completely failed to comprehend my meaning. You have two more failures left this month.

Originally posted by Pyros
That is the lamest apology for McKinnon going around these days.

Was just about to reply but you put that so well I have little to add, thanks.

Perhaps those that defend this are or were hackers themselves. [maybe that's why apc-broken IS]

There are plently of trustworthy non-felons who are adept at hacking and cracking, who can be trusted to stay on the reservation......

Yes precisely. Using that analogy of yours with the burglar, should I now hire him as a security system installer? Maybe I should get him to leave a business card. "Your house has been invaded... call this number.." Your right its the same thing.

As Gary was a supporter of the Disclosure Project, I think that Steven Greer should get involved with his case.

After all, Steven knows some high up monkeys in the US Government. Surely he can pull a few strings etc?

If Gary hadn't found or exposed anything, then they wouldn't really care about him. But the scentence / treatment they are threatening him with, I would bet a lot of money he definately found some evidence on ufo's, bases on the moon and similar.

He should go more public before he goes to the US, just in case he doesn't come back.

The people should know the truth and I reckon Mr Greer should help him.

Any thoughts?

You have proven my point beautifully.

How do you expect to know what your security weaknesses are if nobody knows how to penetrate them? Meanwhile, there ARE people out there who wish you harm, and will find the holes. Would you rather have someone break your window and run, so you know it can be broken, or break your window come in and kill you?

I never said it wasn't a crime. In fact, I do believe I repeatedly have stated that hacking is a crime. But when it comes to punishment, yes motive does matter. Someone who is excited by the challenge of finding weaknesses in a network's security and nothing more does not deserve the same sentence as someone who is excited by the challenge of destroying someones data or even their entire life.

Those who disagree deserve zero tolerance the next time they break a rule.

AND BTW, I have hired hackers because they were hackers. They tend not to churn out the force feed crap I see demonstrated here. Go to any network security consulting firm... 90% of the engineers are/were hackers. Hackers keep you safe. And you wish to destroy them...

Originally posted by soficrow
Gary is a Brit who allegedly committed a crime in Britain - but somehow the law allows him to be extradited to the USA and processed through the US Justice System?

Exactly when did we establish a One World Government Police State?

...and why wasn't I informed?

One World Government.. yeah that might be so when when the US pressure the Swedish minister of justice (of course he will deny this fact) to make a bust against a bittorrent tracker (the pirate bay).. where is this world going when corporate lobby organisations like mpaa.. can do things like this and get away with it..

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
It's basically accepted that the US and UK are one entity at the top levels. I wonder though, If I were to hack into NKs computer system, and find out theyir missile status, would I be extradited, I bet not.

One entity, how ? Do you mean that the United States is just part of the british colonies ?

It seems strange that they can extradite this guy.. basically it was just blatant incompetense of the IT administration.. they should be happy that he didnt destroy anything.. anyway it would be really nice if the various governments and their brances would come clean on the anti-gravity and UFO topics and spill the beans about what they know.. it would be hard if they didn't know anything.. but i guess atleast some branch of the government knows more than they are telling.

Originally posted by minkey53 high up monkeys in the US Government.

Those high up monkeys in the US Government know its a lot cheaper, easier and less politically damaging to lock him up for 70 odd years and discredit him that to cause an ummmm accident to a Brit.

And if there really was evidence of that secret space fleet, do you really think its a good idea to make it public? I would think there is more than one person out there, and quite probably in here, that does not have the best interest of the USA in their hearts.

Sure I want to know too, but I rather its our guys behind the throttle

Originally posted by apc_broken
You have proven my point beautifully.

And which point was that again? That a self-proclaimed criminal is guilty of criminal tresspassing?

How do you expect to know what your security weaknesses are if nobody knows how to penetrate them? Meanwhile, there ARE people out there who wish you harm, and will find the holes. Would you rather have someone break your window and run, so you know it can be broken, or break your window come in and kill you?

You seem to be misunderstanding the point here. If I put a sign that says do not touch on a hot stove, and you disregard that warning, and put your hand on the stove anyway, should I be worried about how much you get burned by the stove?

You're missing the point here I think. The main crux of this whole case revolves around the very FACT that McKinnon KNEW going in that what he was doing was illegal. Doing so violated several laws, not the least of which is breaching a secret government server with intent. Not very secret true, but nonetheless, he shouldn't even have been there.

I never said it wasn't a crime. In fact, I do believe I repeatedly have stated that hacking is a crime. But when it comes to punishment, yes motive does matter. Someone who is excited by the challenge of finding weaknesses in a network's security and nothing more does not deserve the same sentence as someone who is excited by the challenge of destroying someones data or even their entire life.

Within reason, I agree with you. But there are other means to test your skill than attacking a government server, or several servers rather. Yes, motive may matter, but what kind of "docile" motive could someone have for breaking into a secret government server? I don't think he was just "testing server security". He was after the UFO files specifically. He went there with the intent of taking something that wasn't his, and THAT is what gives the government the say, and the right, to decide what happens to him.

Those who disagree deserve zero tolerance the next time they break a rule.

I live by the very same rules that I would make for society in general if I could. If I make a hard rule, it's only because I believe in a higher standard than most people. If I'm prosecuted for doing anything illegal, and I admitted to doing it, I'd expect the same kind of punishment as I would wish on someone else that committed the same crime.

AND BTW, I have hired hackers because they were hackers. They tend not to churn out the force feed crap I see demonstrated here. Go to any network security consulting firm... 90% of the engineers are/were hackers. Hackers keep you safe. And you wish to destroy them...

This is the only part of this that I have zero problem with. I liked this segment. Thank you for at least giving a fair picture of the hacker. They aren't the evil entities that everyone attributes to them. Yes, they can screw up your systems, but legit hackers wouldn't do that. They only do things to further their knowledge of the syetems with which they are tinkering.

That being said, they do not go attack government servers because it doesn't help them at all. They gain nothing but trouble from that.

TheBorg