Super-Hacker Gary McKinnon Will Be Extradited To United States

Originally posted by TheBorg
And which point was that again? That a self-proclaimed criminal is guilty of criminal tresspassing?

That most of the people engaging in this discussion have very little knowledge of what they are arguing.

You seem to be misunderstanding the point here. If I put a sign that says do not touch on a hot stove, and you disregard that warning, and put your hand on the stove anyway, should I be worried about how much you get burned by the stove?

You're missing the point here I think. The main crux of this whole case revolves around the very FACT that McKinnon KNEW going in that what he was doing was illegal. Doing so violated several laws, not the least of which is breaching a secret government server with intent. Not very secret true, but nonetheless, he shouldn't even have been there.

Actually my point is being missed. I am in no way defending McKinnon. I never said I was. I am defending the character of a hacker. That character is being generalized in a very negative light here. It is like comparing a shoplifter to homicidal bank robber. Sorry but it is just flat out wrong.

Within reason, I agree with you. But there are other means to test your skill than attacking a government server, or several servers rather. Yes, motive may matter, but what kind of "docile" motive could someone have for breaking into a secret government server? I don't think he was just "testing server security". He was after the UFO files specifically. He went there with the intent of taking something that wasn't his, and THAT is what gives the government the say, and the right, to decide what happens to him.

And as I said, he deserves appropriate punishment.

I live by the very same rules that I would make for society in general if I could. If I make a hard rule, it's only because I believe in a higher standard than most people. If I'm prosecuted for doing anything illegal, and I admitted to doing it, I'd expect the same kind of punishment as I would wish on someone else that committed the same crime.

An example of my point: If you're in a hurry and decide not to stop at a stop sign, should you be put in prison and have the keys thrown away? The motive and severity of a crime always matters. I fail to understand how some don't think this.

This is the only part of this that I have zero problem with. I liked this segment. Thank you for at least giving a fair picture of the hacker. They aren't the evil entities that everyone attributes to them. Yes, they can screw up your systems, but legit hackers wouldn't do that. They only do things to further their knowledge of the syetems with which they are tinkering.

That being said, they do not go attack government servers because it doesn't help them at all. They gain nothing but trouble from that.

TheBorg

Thank you. By your very reference of "legit hackers" you are recognizing that not all hackers run around destroying systems, which is all I'm saying. All this "I hate hackers" and "they cost me money" BS is total ignorance of just what a hacker is and what ethics they typically carry.

McKinnon penetrated sensitive US government systems. Personally I feel he should be tried in the UK as that's where he committed the crime, but I understand the logic (however flawed) behind his extradition. However, we should all be glad he did. I would much rather have some guy break in that was just looking for ET (so he says) than someone whos goal was to steal REAL sensitive data and destroy the infrastructure. The lesser of two evils should not be treated equally.

the u.s needs to extradite him

so they can force him

to hack into the NEW IMPROVED

DIEBOLD ELECTRONIC VOTING MACHINES

gotta keep them republicans in power somehow

and they are also SCARED

that he might FIND OUT SOMETHING........

GO! HAcKERS GO!

they are the only ones with the GUTS

to do anything about the situations today

he's looking for the REAL TRUTH

and PROOF of all the crap

that US ATS"ERS have been searching for


tell me, that if, you could hack systems,,
that YOU WOULD NOT be trying to CRACK say, dick cheneys, or bushes,
or that enron guy's lawyers computers........

comon, tell me you wouldnt be looking at something good like that...

[edit on 11-7-2006 by yeah right]

if it WASNT FOR HACKERS ..... our computers would still be crappy
running programs like WINDOWS XP ,me, 95 and stuff
they are the ONLY REASON bill gates considered an UPGRADE

they are invaluable if you use them...

thay are hard at work,, trying to hack, say , an operating system
to get the program to do something BETTER/DIFFERENT/ FREE FOR ALL

and YES there ARE BAD GUYS that DO aCTUALLY DAMAGE SYSTEMS

[edit on 11-7-2006 by yeah right]

Guts my ass!? They have no courage. They tresspass onto digital property typically using an abundance of other systems and PC's in order to hide their location. They are not trying to hide anything, they are just rude punks with too much time on their hands, or thieves with illicit motives. Where his guts now? He got caught and hes practically crying not to be deported here for what he did.

I hope next time this happens the Defense Department just plays dumb until they trace the location and then the CIA just surprise 'em and bring their sorry ass to justice. HACKERS ARE ASSHOLES! Most cases of identity theft are a result of asshole hackers. I am sure this dude would have had no problem droppin some keylooger on my PC and taking my info if I did not have any security measures.

Windows was upgraded because technology improved and allowed the creatuion of better performing systems with more features and faster results, and continues to do so to this day.

[edit on 7/11/2006 by DYepes]

and everytime they upgrade/patch holes
you need a faster computer to run it

some security,,
national security even

when a young PUNK can crack it......

i bet the terrorists could do much better!!!!!

or how bout the chinese... they reverse engineer everything , from pictures

how else can this world find out
THE TRUTH

this kid should run for office,, once he is elected,, he is IMMUNE

rich people were running out of ways to SCAM US ALL

so now they use PRETEND PROPERTY (MADE UP) (INTELECTUAL PROPERTY)
most of it which was STOLEN FROM competent working class people
because deep in their heart they know that,,
they are otherwise USELESS..

they CANT DO ANYTHING by THEMSELVES
AND THEY KNOW IT

they POISONED THE NATURAL WATER SUPPLY
so we HAVE TO BUY CLEAN WATER FROM THEM.........

food GROWS ON TREEs.....
BUT WE HAvE TO SOMEHOW PAY FOR IT RIGHT???

EVERYTHING THAT IS ORIGINALLY FREE
THEY FIND A WAY TO MAKE US PAY FOR IT

cause the ACTUAL WORKING CLASS OF PEOPLE LAUGHED AT THEM
cause they are worthless people and CANT or DONT know how to do things

if they poison the air long enough
we will have to BUY THAT TOO

they HAVE TO HAVE LOTS OF MONEY to PAY OTHER PEOPLE
who CAN ACTUALLY DO THINGS

otherwise they would all die!!

and arent you that SAME GUY
that voted to keep the kids off the streets

stop them from HANGING AROUND YOUR STORE

and kick the skateboaders off the curbs

YOU PEOPLE FORCED THEM to stay at home and LEARN COMPUTERS
in the first place

i bet you're the VERY SAME GUY that SOLD THEM THAT
SKaTEBOARD and/or COMPUTER............

YOU MADE YOUR MONEY....
NOW YOU WANT THEM TO GIVE UP THEIR TOYS

so what , YOU HAVE SOMETHING ELSE YOU WANT THEM TO BUY?????????

Originally posted by DYepes
Most cases of identity theft are a result of asshole hackers.

ERRRRRRR. Hacking skill is probably the last thing you need to steal someones identity... You dont need to know a thing about computers to dig through a person's garbage, which is the most common source of information.

See... this is what Im talking about. Most people believe what Dateline or 20/20 says about what they call "hackers." Usually the media focuses on a specific destructive group and casts that image on the entire population. Minority rules as usual it seems. It's a failure to understand the nature of a hacker, and how a true hacker is quite different from a cracker.

Please can we stop confusing hackers and crackers. Just because the media doesn't know the difference doesn't mean there is none. Ignorance denied and all that jazz...

Originally posted by thematrix
A small note, Gary isn't as much a super hacker as they are trying to make him out to be.
He entered the systems trough well known misconfigurations and security holes that should have been closed years before his intrussion, all needed KB, software and patches to solve any and all of the exploited security problems were available publicly and for free for a long time, but the problems were left wide open by utter and complete incompetence by the departments the systems were part of.

He admitted it himself and fully disclosed the methods he used to gain access.
The holes, after it was discovered he exploited them and this case got massive media attention, were finaly closed.

Imho, he doesn't deserve the jailtime he will probably recieve and he should even be commended for showing the world how badly these goverment computer systems are maintained and secured.

The people responsible for leaving these systems wide open are the ones that should be on trial for treason, sabotage (voluntarely or accidental doesn't matter in this case) and for being a threat to US national security.

[edit on 7/7/06 by thematrix]

You honestly think they left these things open on ACCIDENT !?????????????????/ WoW !!! ... He was there and he got there because someone let him ... If> [you listen =smart]

else[dumb=YOU] LoL ...

It won't let me tag wierd ...

[edit on 11-7-2006 by Deus_Brandon]

apc , i agree totally

nobody seems to understand that

"A PROGRAMMER IS A HACKER"

a theif CAN BE a hacker

a noob can get his first computer
and accidentally hack into something....(not having a clue either)

i do not want to lose my investment in computer games for my kids so........
i appreciate cracks, that allow me to keep my cd's shiny and scratch free
and in their cases... my kids still play but NEVER TOUCH THE CD DISK...

if they get scratched up do you think i'll get a FREE REPLACEMENT?????
heck no!!!

such a great marketing idea though
a game for 2-3 year olds that costs $40.00 +
gets scratched up so bad in 1 day that it no longer works

the WEASELS DESERvE to get HACKED

why dont they also sell kickballs made of SOAP BUBBLES for $5-10
its the ssame concept AFTERALL


[edit on 11-7-2006 by yeah right]

deus--

if they still use microsoft then YES it WAS LEFT OPEN TO ATTACKS....

WHY OH WHY DO YOU THINK LINUX/unix ect.... was invented
in the first place???

cause ole'bill was in too much of a hurry for a buck
and never completed the ORIGINAL WORK

in other words
sold lemons and got away with it

it is SOLELY BILL GATES handiwork
THAT HACKERS WERE INVENTED IN THE FIRST PLACE
trying to get WINDOWS to be stable and NOT CRASH.........

[edit on 11-7-2006 by yeah right]

Originally posted by yeah right
deus--

if they still use microsoft then YES it WAS LEFT OPEN TO ATTACKS....

WHY OH WHY DO YOU THINK LINUX/unix ect.... was invented
in the first place???

cause ole'bill was in too much of a hurry for a buck
and never completed the ORIGINAL WORK

in other words
sold lemons and got away with it

it is SOLELY BILL GATES handiwork
THAT HACKERS WERE INVENTED IN THE FIRST PLACE
trying to get WINDOWS to be stable and NOT CRASH.........

[edit on 11-7-2006 by yeah right]

Even Windows XP Profesional has bugs and needs patches ... and everyday you get on them it will say something as youa re going throughout the day .. that it has caught something that possibly could slip through ... When it comes to computers we are the Gods of them .... We are the makers of the Computers. We should never apire to be the gods of anything. Listen to the originaly creator and he could tell you that .... 0000011100000011100000 .... You know what that means ??? Neither do I ... But ... it could very well mean ... send a PATCH !

erm.... whaaaat?

Unix predates Windows by a significant margin.

Linux started picking up steam around the time of Windows 3.1.

And there are a thousand and one more ways to root a linux box than there are to compromise a Windows machines. MS software is just usually easier to penetrate without having user level access.

There's another thread on this somewhere, but if I recall most government networked systems are a fairly equal balance of Windows and Unix flavors. So I don't see how the government is really to blame for using software that McKinnon was able to hack.

The ... hacking is done in the networking part of the program anyways ... or the networking of servers together or the backing up of the servers to different locations .... Who cares about getting the information from the main site when it is backed up every so often and you can hack into that to get the information to basically copy and paste it self to two diffent palces one being your Pc and the place it was set to go ... ??

Sorry if I confused you. I was responding to 'yeah right'. Yeah... right...

But I suppose you could put it that way. Unless they back up to tape or something. But to continue this bit further would be in violation of the forum rules.

Originally posted by DYepes
Guts my ass!? They have no courage. They tresspass onto digital property typically using an abundance of other systems and PC's in order to hide their location. They are not trying to hide anything, they are just rude punks with too much time on their hands, or thieves with illicit motives. Where his guts now? He got caught and hes practically crying not to be deported here for what he did.

I hope next time this happens the Defense Department just plays dumb until they trace the location and then the CIA just surprise 'em and bring their sorry ass to justice. HACKERS ARE ASSHOLES! Most cases of identity theft are a result of asshole hackers. I am sure this dude would have had no problem droppin some keylooger on my PC and taking my info if I did not have any security measures.

Windows was upgraded because technology improved and allowed the creatuion of better performing systems with more features and faster results, and continues to do so to this day.

[edit on 7/11/2006 by DYepes]

Look, I don't like what McKinnon did either, but he's just one type of hacker. There are several types. The three main types are Black Hats (those that break into computers for the sake of some malicious purpose), the White Hats (those that stand in opposition to the Black Hats and try to stop them and thier progress), and there are the Grey Hats (those that swear no allegience to any one side. They focus on whatever benefits them most.

McKinnon was clearly a Black Hat, since he was entering a restricted government server with intent to take something that wasn't his. I don't like the general concensus here of deifying this guy for stealing. Maybe the penalties they're trying to get for him are a bit steep, but I doubt he'll even see half of that. Convicted rapists, sentenced to jail for a life term of 20 yrs usually get out in 6-10 on good behavior. I think the point here is that they're shooting for such a high penalty to try and get as high a sentence as possible. Generally, no one convicted of a crime gets the highest penalty provided under law. They get the median amount because of extenuating circumstances.

In closing, I think we need to stop complaining and see what happens in the trial.

TheBorg

P.S. As for the remark of hackers being "A--holes", I think it should be noted that that's a breach of the T&C. Profanity is something that's not tolerated here very well. Please try to refrain from that in the future. I understand your vehemence on this, believe me I do, but that's no reason to swear.

Oh, and one last note. Windows is not the best system out there. Mostly, Unix outperforms it, and it's cleaner code, it's accessable for those of us that like to develop, and it's got a lot less bugs in it. The only reason that Windows is so popular is because it's the OS that's most used.

I don't think he should be extradited the USA can't be trusted these days with their current human rights records.

This guy is NOT a hacker if you have heard him describe what he did he was using "pc anywhere" a commercial program that these computers were running with a blank password everything he did was seen as he did it from moving the mouse to looking at whatever picture file he found.

These aren't the actions of a hacker although whoever installed a remote administration tool on these military computers with no password is a complete moron.

I pity this guy he's a scapegoat because he was stupid and I don't think he's completely sane either.

Well that's my take on it.

Originally posted by Teknikal

I don't think he should be extradited the USA

Me either. And I wanna know - what law gives the USA the right to extradite a UK citizen from his home in the UK for an alledged crime committed in the UK?



...Sounds like One World Government to me.

...the USA can't be trusted these days with their current human rights records.

No kidding.

He is not a "SUPER HACKER"..he is a script kiddie..known in the circles as a sciddie.

Before we choke on the red herrings, I wanna know:



What law gives the USA the right to extradite a UK citizen from his home in the UK for an alleged crime committed in the UK, not the USA?


Anyone know?




...Cuz it sounds awfully close to One World Government.