Somalia: Mogadishu Is Burning

vowing to create a Islamist state.

Well I guess the answer to my question is not very long. I feel bad for any women or non muslims that are going to have to go though that change.

Originally posted by ShadowXIX
Well I guess the answer to my question is not very long. I feel bad for any women or non muslims that are going to have to go though that change.

Yes poor Women of Somalia.

Screw the ones in Saudi Arabia (and do not meat literally).

This is Your Hypocrisy showing - and the hypocrisy of the US goverment.

When there are countries, that US goverment (and their precioius friends) want to attack, then the sentance you wrote is used "I feel bad for any women or non muslims that are going to have to go though that change".

How Compassionate!

But all this compassion stops when I start to bring out stuff from Saudi Arabia, and how they Treat women, and how they Treat non-Muslims, and how they Execute people on the streets, and how they Torture people.

BUT - THAT IS FINE!

They are Out Friends yes!

Our Prrrrrecious Frrrriends yesssss!

Prrrrrrrrecioussssssssss!



[edit on 7/6/06 by Souljah]

Originally posted by Souljah

Saudi Arabia, and how they Treat women

I heard they can no longer drive golf carts...

Saudi Women Driving Ban Expanded To Include Golf Carts

Originally posted by Hellmutt
I heard they can no longer drive golf carts...

Saudi Women Driving Ban Expanded To Include Golf Carts

Well, if you can't drive a Bike or a Car - why should you drive a Golf Cart?



Nice find - going there to drop a post.

[edit on 7/6/06 by Souljah]

Souljah and Shadow
You both are very eager to put down other peoples thoughts about various countries and promote your own image/agenda, bur have you ever visited a muslim country?
Or maybe even a few of them? Have you seen how people live in different places?

Saudi Arabia and Somalia are about as different in all aspect (exept sand ) Than USA and China.

So do you claim that at this very moment Women in Saudi Arabia worse off than Somali women?

And i do not want to defend anyone opressing or abusing women, i'm a firm believer in equality.

Ps.And most somali men i know (lot's of somali "refugees" live in my area) are shauvinist bastards who are just about as religious as Lenin was. They harass women and girls and if someone tries to give them a lesson they shout Racist, Racist!!!

Originally posted by northwolf
You both are very eager to put down other peoples thoughts about various countries and promote your own image/agenda, bur have you ever visited a muslim country?

I ain't promoting anything - just trying to open up peoples eyes.

And no - I haven't been to any Muslim country yet.

But I know alot of Muslim people living here.

Saudi Arabia and Somalia are about as different in all aspect (exept sand

) Than USA and China.

Well not exactly. USA and China are Entirely different when compared; for example, China is an old culture that goes way back, like thousands of years of History; USA on the other hand is one of the youngest cultures, having her birthday just about 150-200 years ago.

Saudi Arabia and Somalia have on the other hand alot incommon (other then sand) - and they are not so far away from each other at all, just sail a little bit to the north and you will soon land in Saudi Arabia. They both have Sunni Islam. So I think they are a little closer to each other then USA or China. The problem is, that Somalia does not have alot of OIL, so they are not treated as Royalty by the West. If they had alot of Oil, I am sure there would be golf courts in the middle of Somali desert right now.

So do you claim that at this very moment Women in Saudi Arabia worse off than Somali women?

I think that at this moment the entire Somalia is Worse then Saudi Arabia, since there is a Civil War raging in there, and sadly nobody comes to the rescue - actually the good old West is just pouring more Oil on the Fire that has already burned alot of people.

So you think that funding the opposite Warlords in Somalia will bring Peace?

How can funding Warlords bring Peace?

They are not PEACE-Lords...

I think Saudi women are worse then anybody imagines - but that has no importance whatsoever, since Saudi Arabia is a big USA ally and nobody can tell them what to do and what not to do.

On the other hand what happens to Women, Men or Chidlren in Somalia is of nobodys concern at all - simply put, NOBODY CARES.

Ok, Souljah it seems you got my point. (gotta be the first time ever )

AN average somali woman would most likely to be very happy for a change to live in SA, right?


AS for backing up warlords?
Why not, clans were the best change of Re-uniting Somalia with a Pro US goverment, sensible politics for me (moral? no, why should it be?)

On the other hand these Sharia Courts seem to pretty modest, at least their spokesman is, so no harm done if they can keep the country intact. But i strongly doubt they can fade the hatred and rivalry between somali clans. Clan is a much more profound feature for Somalis than religion will ever be. So i pretty much sure that theses Islamic courts will be torn apart by clan rivalry, sooner rather than later. S

How is it one can argue against the U.S. strategy to establish democracy in the region, lambast the U.S. as being the great "satan", the "aggressor", "imperialist", complain about Bush, neconservatism, and the "illegal war" and at the same time bewail and moan the state of "womens affairs" in fundamentalist Islamic states?

Originally posted by northwolf
Ok, Souljah it seems you got my point. (gotta be the first time ever

)

There is a First Time for Everything!

AN average somali woman would most likely to be very happy for a change to live in SA, right?

I Highly doubt that - an averege Somali Woman would be very happy somewhere in Europe, having a White European male for husband who would take care of her.

Or anyplace else, where people do not beat you up or stone you to death for something.

AS for backing up warlords?
Why not, clans were the best change of Re-uniting Somalia with a Pro US goverment, sensible politics for me (moral? no, why should it be?)

Is that like backing the anti-communist Militias in Nicaragua?
Remember those times, when everything Communistic just Needed to be exterminated? Well the entire South American contient was a scenery for bloodshed - why? Because "somebody" did not allow Communism and Socialism to spread across the continent? Remember Argentina, Chile, San Salvador, Panama? All done in the name of "Democracy".

The Theory "your enemy's enemy is my friend" is used by the Superpowers to control this planet. It is not at all for the Good of the local population of a certain country, where this struggle is going on - like in this case, Somalia.

There are two sides - and you fund one, so that they can slaughter each other?

For WHAT?

Peace?

How can there EVER be Peace, if these people are going to kill each other for a long time now, since the Anti-Islamist got their injections of money?

You think if they somehow Win it will be the End of all Hostilities?

Mission Accomplished?

Like in Iraq?

As I said - Babylon Tactics; DIVIDE AND RULE!

If They wanted PEACE in Somalia, there would be Peace a long time ago...

Originally posted by smokenmirrors
How is it one can argue against the U.S. strategy to establish democracy in the region, lambast the U.S. as being the great "satan", the "aggressor", "imperialist", complain about Bush, neconservatism, and the "illegal war" and at the same time bewail and moan the state of "womens affairs" in fundamentalist Islamic states?

Is there Democracy in the Middle East region?

Is there Peace?

Is ther Stability?

Is there Justice?

Is there Freedom?

Isn't it interesting, that you do Moan and Bewail about Women Affairs in Afganistan, yet I do not think you will say a word about Saudi Arabia?

Yep - certain Laws do work for Certain people; others are allowed to step over the line over and over and over again.

This is how the World Works Today.

Its just Business as Usual.

Originally posted by Souljah

Originally posted by smokenmirrors
How is it one can argue against the U.S. strategy to establish democracy in the region, lambast the U.S. as being the great "satan", the "aggressor", "imperialist", complain about Bush, neconservatism, and the "illegal war" and at the same time bewail and moan the state of "womens affairs" in fundamentalist Islamic states?

Is there Democracy in the Middle East region?

Is there Peace?

Is ther Stability?

Is there Justice?

Is there Freedom?

Isn't it interesting, that you do Moan and Bewail about Women Affairs in Afganistan, yet I do not think you will say a word about Saudi Arabia?

Yep - certain Laws do work for Certain people; others are allowed to step over the line over and over and over again.

This is how the World Works Today.

Its just Business as Usual.

I'm not interested in an extended exchange here, however, in my 46 years on this planet, along with having a little knowledge of the history of the middle east, there has NEVER been democracy, peace, stability, justice, or freedom in the middle east, hence the wording "strategy to ESTABLISH".......yep, I'm and American, and people ain't beatin' down the doors to get here 'cuz it's a terrible place to live.....

Originally posted by ShadowXIX
So how long does everyone think before strict Shiite laws are put into place for Mogadishu citizens?

Who cares. Let them languish under a brutal sharic dictatorship. The US already got burnt bad on that country and city, let it rot and fester. Give guns and landmines to both sides and let them murder eacherother for a few generations while there's a famine in the country Divide, but its not worth conquering. They dragged one of our soldiers naked through the streets, desecrating the corpse, and half the city opened up on them while they were trying to catch a local strongman. Let them see how much 'better' local dictatorships are than a 'comprimised american puppet government'.

Somalia may become a safe haven for terrorists to train, practice and seek refuge

Somalia already is a safehaven. Its one of the few states in the world that are actually in real life Anarchy.

and the hypocrisy of the US goverment.

Who gives a damn about hypocrisy. There's not a government or power on the globe that isn't hypocritical.

and how they Execute people on the streets, and how they Torture people.
BUT - THAT IS FINE! They are Out Friends yes!

Indeed, they'll do what we tell them when we ask it of them. Just like the warlords, they attacked the US when it was in their interests, and when the islamists became a problem for them, they worked with the US. Hypocritical, yes, practical, yes. Its all part of the system to maintain and enable global US hegemony and supremacy. What else is the US supposed to do? Its a hypocritical world, and a violent world.

How can funding Warlords bring Peace?

By keeping your enemies at each other's throats, you get peace for yourself. Somalia is not amicable to having a US installed Democratic government. The only options are to support a national strongman, or to promote strife internally. Since no local alliances seems to be able to defeat islamist militias, (just like in afghanistan, the taliban swept through that country like fire), the best option is to promote strife.

That or 'be nice' and give the people food and try to promote peace, but the US public isn't interested in that, and really, its not its responsibility to do so.

simply put, NOBODY CARES.

Precisely. And the only people that even know what 'Mogadishu' is are still fuming over US servicemen being ripped apart by the denizens of that city. So anyone that does care, wants them dead.

when everything Communistic just Needed to be exterminated? Well the entire South American contient was a scenery for bloodshed - why?

Yes, and now Islamism has replaced communism. The US threw the British off their backs when they were just farmers. Then it destroyed the Spanish and Mexican empires. Then it wiped out the Kaiser, and then the Fuhrer. Then it opposed the communists (that crazy kennedy guy! what was he thinking eh?). And now its Islamists. From wars at home, to wars at the borders, to world wars, to cold wars, and now terror wars. Next it'll probably be space wars (We must enfore the Frist Doctrine with respect to our Mars Colonies, no Sub-Saharan Union interference!).

"'Hatred and unpopularity at the time have ever been the fate of those who have aspired to empire" and what is Empire if not independence in the globe? Who is not a slave in a world where someone is going to be the master?

Its just Business as Usual.

And what else should it be?

smokenmirrors
and at the same time bewail and moan the state of "womens affairs" in fundamentalist Islamic states?

Its counter-productive, yes, but has a logic to it. The US is a superpower, the lone superpower. If it wanted to promote Freedom, Democracy, and advance the cause of an Open and Liberal Society across the globe, it could, and it wouldn't be supporting warlords and monsters like it does.

However, I would say that just because the US doesn't try to do this for the whole globe doesn't mean it isn't trying to do this in specific regions (regardless of it being out of self-interest).

Originally posted by Nygdan
Who cares. Let them languish under a brutal sharic dictatorship. The US already got burnt bad on that country and city, let it rot and fester. Give guns and landmines to both sides and let them murder eacherother for a few generations while there's a famine in the country Divide, but its not worth conquering. They dragged one of our soldiers naked through the streets, desecrating the corpse, and half the city opened up on them while they were trying to catch a local strongman. Let them see how much 'better' local dictatorships are than a 'comprimised american puppet government'.

OK, one thing is to say: "Let them rot and fester", since that means leave them Alone; but another thing is to say "Give them guns and landmines" - that is NOT leaving them alone. That is giving them WEAPONS. Now I know it is kind of hard, but try to imagine living in Somalia - you think it is Fun? You think kids 10 or 12-years old have much future left? You think mothers watching their child die at the age of 5 is okey? Because sadly that is going on - and with US funding the "other" side then the Militant Islamists is just more Oil on the Fire; but hey! - MUST fight this Muslims on all fronst right?

Who gives a damn about hypocrisy. There's not a government or power on the globe that isn't hypocritical.

I know that - but then PLEASE stop pretending that USA are all GOOD and Democratic and Ultra-Super-Dooper-Fantastic; because you just said they are not.

Indeed, they'll do what we tell them when we ask it of them. Just like the warlords, they attacked the US when it was in their interests, and when the islamists became a problem for them, they worked with the US. Hypocritical, yes, practical, yes. Its all part of the system to maintain and enable global US hegemony and supremacy. What else is the US supposed to do? Its a hypocritical world, and a violent world.

Well I think this "Black Hawk Down" scenario was carefully planned - to make the US Loose. Pretty simple tactics; try and fail and never do it again. Solved! We will Never EVER go to Africa again! Leave them alone to rot and foster - but ofcourse give them also weapons to kill each other - forget food, WEAPONS THEY need. Hypocritical? Yes. Practical? Yes. Good Business? Yes.

And why should the US have this Global supremacy and use it to force other nations their way of life, their way of economy, their way of business? Why should everybody pay for the American way of life? What else is the US supposed to do? I don't know - EXPLORE THE SPACE maybe?

Yeah, its a Hypocritical and Violent World - with USA being NUMERO ONE in it!

By keeping your enemies at each other's throats, you get peace for yourself. Somalia is not amicable to having a US installed Democratic government. The only options are to support a national strongman, or to promote strife internally. Since no local alliances seems to be able to defeat islamist militias, (just like in afghanistan, the taliban swept through that country like fire), the best option is to promote strife.

Peace for yourself? How exactly is Somalia a Threat to United States? Why even meddle with their affairs? Because they have an Islamic Militia? Didn't you say that its best to leave them to rot and kill each other. Then leave them - but stop interfeering. And most of all, stop hiding behing the Flag of Freedom and Democracy, when that is not true at all. There is just Business and Hypocrisy. And Control. To control the People you just Divide them. This way you will rule them for a long, Long time. Babylon System.

That or 'be nice' and give the people food and try to promote peace, but the US public isn't interested in that, and really, its not its responsibility to do so.

Yeah? Why was "Your Responsibility" to "Bring Peace" to Afganis and Iraqis?

How come they Deserved that Honor?

Yes, and now Islamism has replaced communism. The US threw the British off their backs when they were just farmers. Then it destroyed the Spanish and Mexican empires. Then it wiped out the Kaiser, and then the Fuhrer. Then it opposed the communists (that crazy kennedy guy! what was he thinking eh?). And now its Islamists. From wars at home, to wars at the borders, to world wars, to cold wars, and now terror wars. Next it'll probably be space wars (We must enfore the Frist Doctrine with respect to our Mars Colonies, no Sub-Saharan Union interference!).

Ask yourself; who wants these Wars and who Needs them and who is pulling the strings to make them and also earn alot of Money with them.

Its counter-productive, yes, but has a logic to it. The US is a superpower, the lone superpower. If it wanted to promote Freedom, Democracy, and advance the cause of an Open and Liberal Society across the globe, it could, and it wouldn't be supporting warlords and monsters like it does.

Errr, didn't you say US interests are "Practical and Hypocritical"?

What IS the true interest of the US?

Is it really Made in USA?

Or is it just promoting Interests of the Global Elite?

Like the Rock-a-Fellas?

Or Bilderbergs?

Or Rothchilds?

Or any other Crap of the Top?

Souljah I feel sorry that you always see things as a muslim problem and view, and not a human problem.

There are five billion other people on this world you ignore always.

Originally posted by Souljah
OK, one thing is to say: "Let them rot and fester", since that means leave them Alone; but another thing is to say "Give them guns and landmines" - that is NOT leaving them alone.

Who says leave them alone? Let them rot and give them the weapons that will keep them fighting each other and weak.

Now I know it is kind of hard, but try to imagine living in Somalia - you think it is Fun?

I couldn't care less about the somalis. They've dug their own grave.

You think kids 10 or 12-years old have much future left? You think mothers watching their child die at the age of 5 is okey?

If they don't like it then they can do something about it, instead of sitting around letting warlords take their food, or expecting the US to hand deliver supplies to them. If the somalis are tired of warlords and islamists, and actually want self-rule, let them do something to accomplish it and then the US can re-negotiate the terms.

but hey! - MUST fight this Muslims on all fronst right?

Must fight islamists on all fronts, correct. Just like the fascists had to be fought, and just like the soviets had to be fought. They were destroyed, and so will the islamists. And the next 'threat' that pops up after them, ad infinitum.

Who gives a damn about hypocrisy. There's not a government or power on the globe that isn't hypocritical.

I know that - but then PLEASE stop pretending that USA are all GOOD and Democratic and Ultra-Super-Dooper-Fantastic; because you just said they are not.
Agreed. Anyone that thinks its okay for the US to fund these piggish warlords, who rape-murder-kill, can't justifiably also say that the US all good.

I don't pretend that the USA are all good or motivated by idealism. THe US is motivated by self-interest. Its in the US's interests to re-organize the middle east along democratic lines. Its just not in the US's interests to try to do the same in somalia, its going to be difficult enough with the middle east, which is simply the higher priority.

In Rome, the state served the personal self-interests of the Caesar. In the british empire, the colonies served the interests of the empire, and the empire functioned to serve the radical 'liberal' politics of its time. Under the Nazis, the public existed to serve the interests of the state, qua state. Under the Soviets, everything existed to serve the interests of the party, which served the interests of the public, as a class, and the revolution. WIth the US, the state exists to serve the self-interests of the american public, and that includes a complex association of the elite, the rich, the various States, the poor, the working class, the public as populists, and other entities that are "American".

forget food, WEAPONS THEY need. Hypocritical? Yes. Practical? Yes. Good Business? Yes.

All of which adds up in the equation of foreign policy to 'yes, do this. It will suck for the somalis, but who cares, we serve our interests'.

And why should the US have this Global supremacy and use it to force other nations their way of life, their way of economy, their way of business?

There is no reason for why it should. It simply does, because it has it. Might clearly doesn't make right, but might permits you to dictate global power structures and the world order.

Why should everybody pay for the American way of life?

They shouldn't. But they will.

Yeah, its a Hypocritical and Violent World - with USA being NUMERO ONE in it!

Precisely. You would have us be one of the peons that get screwed over by Numero Uno? Well we wouldnt, and we are in a position to actually do something about it.

Peace for yourself? How exactly is Somalia a Threat to United States?

Its not. Which is why its not in our interests to get involved with it, beyond flooding it with weapons and arming one side in order to keep it from being a threat.

Because they have an Islamic Militia? Didn't you say that its best to leave them to rot and kill each other.

Well now how in the hell are they going to kill each other if we don't give them weapons???

This way you will rule them for a long, Long time. Babylon System.

Yes. And Babylon makes the Rules.

You know whats worse? We can promote ourselves to actually convince people, and history that we are a Force for Good. Military enterprises don't last forever, "Firecrackers win now but they never maintain", as per Matisyahu (hey, you're making reggae references, why can't I? :lol. We've got the firecrackers, but we can also manipulate the system (since we've made it) into presenting ourselves as the 'good', and these perpetuate our 'system' long after our own 'worldly' passing. As all empires crumble, so will this one, but we'll still be able to carry-on because of our cultural and political machinations, beyond the empire.

Why was "Your Responsibility" to "Bring Peace" to Afganis and Iraqis?

It wasn't. It was in our selfish interests to invade, destroy, and build a new order.

How come they Deserved that Honor?

As opposed to being treated like Somalia? There are lots of reasons to opt for invasion and occupation and installation of a new government over merely dividing a nation through strife. Just as there are lots of reasons to opt for intalling a democratic government, or in some situations, installing a puppet dictatorship, or supporting a shah, or supporting a radical cleric, etc.

Ask yourself; who wants these Wars and who Needs them and who is pulling the strings to make them and also earn alot of Money with them.

Us.

What IS the true interest of the US?

The interests of the US are the US. Not ideology, not 'the state', and not 'Caesar'. The interests of the US are determined by a complex inter-realtionship of State Politics, class politics, the interests of the globo-corporate elite, the votes of the poor, etc.

Or is it just promoting Interests of the Global Elite?

I wouldn't say its just the global elite, they clearly factor into it.

Like the Rock-a-Fellas? Or Bilderbergs?Or Rothchilds?

And the Bushs and Kerrys and a host of other members of the Elite. The elite is more than just a few controlling bloodlines. And in addition to that are the smiths and jonses and every other member of the public, and the vested class interests such as the working class and investing class and middle class, and don't forget the interests of the State governments and the Unions and populist movements and other organizations.

All of those things go into what determines "Americas" interests.

Originally posted by Nygdan
Who says leave them alone? Let them rot and give them the weapons that will keep them fighting each other and weak.

Babylon System again.

I couldn't care less about the somalis. They've dug their own grave.

You think they wanna fight? You think they do not want peace and prosperity and a tv-set and a houes with a dog and a cat and a pool and a clock that wakes them up every morning to go to work? I am more leaning to the possiblity, that "Others" have made this choice for them - that others have dug their graves for them. Peace is not an Option in Somalia.

If they don't like it then they can do something about it, instead of sitting around letting warlords take their food, or expecting the US to hand deliver supplies to them. If the somalis are tired of warlords and islamists, and actually want self-rule, let them do something to accomplish it and then the US can re-negotiate the terms.

How exactly can they do "something about it"? You think that you can just stand up and say "I have Enough of this Warlords Crap!" and get away with it? Please! Once you start a circle of Violence it is not that easy to stop it. The Somalis are Divided, as usual, and you are either with the Islamists or against them (sound familiar?). I think that the ones that are in between quickly get sucked into one of the two options, since there is really no way out. What, are they gonna migarte to Europe? As if they are welcome, and as if they are going to be accepted with arms wide open. As I said before - nobody wants Peace in Somalia, nobody from the Outside, the ones that could actually do something and change that. Instead they just fuel the fires of religious conflict, saying they are "Fighting the Terrorists". Actually you are creating terrorists by this action - not eliminating them.

Must fight islamists on all fronts, correct. Just like the fascists had to be fought, and just like the soviets had to be fought. They were destroyed, and so will the islamists. And the next 'threat' that pops up after them, ad infinitum.

And the Soverign Grand Insperctor General is smiling right now! Do you honestly think, that Fascist were the enemy in the WW2? Or the Soviets in the Cold War? It was just a show for the suckers at the bottom, doing all the dying and the killing and the sweating and the crying - while the Big Fish always get away, with even more money in their pockets. Global Elite CONTROLS the Show! Every single one of them is Artificially created - as was WW1, WW2, Cold War, Korean War, Vietnam War, War on Terror - well every war in thic Century.

Agreed. Anyone that thinks its okay for the US to fund these piggish warlords, who rape-murder-kill, can't justifiably also say that the US all good.

Whoa - we agree!

I don't pretend that the USA are all good or motivated by idealism. THe US is motivated by self-interest. Its in the US's interests to re-organize the middle east along democratic lines. Its just not in the US's interests to try to do the same in somalia, its going to be difficult enough with the middle east, which is simply the higher priority.

Wrong. The US is Motivated by the Self-Interests of the Global Elite. US is just a Tool of them, a Vessel to execute these global policies, which then affect the entire Globe. Through Banking, Business, Military, Politics, Education, Media, Religion, Intelligence Agencies, Medicine&Drug companies - the USA dances according to the Tune that they play. Global Elite have inflitrated all of the ranks mentioned above, they have a man in each and every corner.

In Rome, the state served the personal self-interests of the Caesar. In the british empire, the colonies served the interests of the empire, and the empire functioned to serve the radical 'liberal' politics of its time. Under the Nazis, the public existed to serve the interests of the state, qua state. Under the Soviets, everything existed to serve the interests of the party, which served the interests of the public, as a class, and the revolution. WIth the US, the state exists to serve the self-interests of the american public, and that includes a complex association of the elite, the rich, the various States, the poor, the working class, the public as populists, and other entities that are "American".

Right and Wrong. Perhaps in Rome things were a little bit Different - but from Nazi's forward, everything is going according to the GRAND PLAN. The Global Elite; with their Black Nobility, Illuminated Freemasons, Committee of 300, Knights of Malta, Skull and Bones and other Secret Societes are telling who is going to do what and where. And they are everywhere. They were in Nazi Germany, they were in Soviet Union - and they sure are in European Union and in US of A. The "Public" is at the very bottom of this Power Pyramid, supporing all the "Blocks" above them. In the middle, the Clube of Rome, Trilateral Commision, Council of Foreign Relations, NATO, Royal Institute for Foreign Affairs, Bilderbergs, Rotchilds, Rock-a-Fella's. And I bet they they have a man in each and every goverment on this Planet.

They shouldn't. But they will.

Wrong; they should not, but WE already ARE paying. All of us.

Its not. Which is why its not in our interests to get involved with it, beyond flooding it with weapons and arming one side in order to keep it from being a threat.

And make a Buck while you are at it, right?

Well now how in the hell are they going to kill each other if we don't give them weapons???

True.

You know whats worse? We can promote ourselves to actually convince people, and history that we are a Force for Good. Military enterprises don't last forever, "Firecrackers win now but they never maintain", as per Matisyahu (hey, you're making reggae references, why can't I? :lol

. We've got the firecrackers, but we can also manipulate the system (since we've made it) into presenting ourselves as the 'good', and these perpetuate our 'system' long after our own 'worldly' passing. As all empires crumble, so will this one, but we'll still be able to carry-on because of our cultural and political machinations, beyond the empire.

Well I think that USA is being manipulated for the establishment of the One World Goverment. You can see it slowly coming togather - European Union, Euro; well we here are almost there. The United Nations are a perfect example of One World Army. So the signs are here Mate. You just have to connect the Dots. And with each and every War, the Globalists are closer to their Goal, since people are more and more afraid - like they are afraid today because of the Terrible Terrorists - and they will more and more bow to their Goverments, so all they have to do is say JUMP! and the crowd goes "How High?".

It wasn't. It was in our selfish interests to invade, destroy, and build a new order.

A New WORLD Order?

As opposed to being treated like Somalia? There are lots of reasons to opt for invasion and occupation and installation of a new government over merely dividing a nation through strife. Just as there are lots of reasons to opt for intalling a democratic government, or in some situations, installing a puppet dictatorship, or supporting a shah, or supporting a radical cleric, etc.

You wanna know what are those reasons? In early 20th century (somewhere around 1910) a British guy discovered Oil in Iran. And from then on, Middle East was a Stage for all sorts of Divide and Rule actions, performed by the West ofcourse. Global Elite have at that time made up their minds, how to carve up this peice of the World into little states, under their protectorate - especially those with alot of Oil - while they keep others at war with each other. Then the Zionists came and created the state of Isreal, which was designed to persude the powerful USA to enter the WW1 and to create this "controllable conflict" between the Palestinians and Jews, which yet again helped to even further Divide and Rule the Middle East rich with Oil. How ironic, that the founder of Zionism was an atheist named Theodore Herzl. Zionism is not a religion not a race - but a political movement, therefore saying; all Jewish people are not Zionists, and all Zionists are not Jewish.

The interests of the US are the US. Not ideology, not 'the state', and not 'Caesar'. The interests of the US are determined by a complex inter-realtionship of State Politics, class politics, the interests of the globo-corporate elite, the votes of the poor, etc.

The Interests of USA are only a reflection of the Global Elite, which has infiltrated this country a long time ago. They just pull the strings and the majority of the people start to dance.

I wouldn't say its just the global elite, they clearly factor into it.

Oh, do not Underestimate them - they are not "JUST" the global elite.

And in addition to that are the smiths and jonses and every other member of the public, and the vested class interests such as the working class and investing class and middle class, and don't forget the interests of the State governments and the Unions and populist movements and other organizations.

None of that matter - the smiths and jones will work until the day they die, to pay off the credit and the loan and to support their families. The goverments are already inflirtrated and they must do what they are asked to, or they loose their balls, bowels or their life. The Public is kept in the dark and they are manipulated on all of the levels of modern society, as I have mentioned before.

Freedom is Slavery.

Originally posted by Souljah
Babylon System again.

All Hail Evil-Merodach, down with Jehoiachin!

You think they do not want peace and prosperity and a tv-set and a houes with a dog and a cat and a pool and a clock that wakes them up every morning to go to work?

If they want that, then they'd have to work with the US. They seem neither capable nor interested in doing anything about the warlords or the islamists.If the whole city rose up against the islamists they could crush them, within a single day.

You think that you can just stand up and say "I have Enough of this Warlords Crap!" and get away with it? Please! Once you start a circle of Violence it is not that easy to stop it.

The ability or inability of the average somali to stand up for himself is not my concern. If they want peace, they'll have to fight for it.

Actually you are creating terrorists by this action - not eliminating them.

So they say. We are also giving the terrorists someone to hit, the secular warlords, rather than US. If we sat by and did nothing at all, then the islamists would run the whole country, and that would be used to attack us. This way, they are kept in anarchy, and we use our proxies to hit them.

Do you honestly think, that Fascist were the enemy in the WW2? Or the Soviets in the Cold War? It was just a show for the suckers at the bottom

So said the pacifists and anti-war activists. Meanwhile, the death camps were in full swing and bombs were loaded onto Zeros.

Whoa - we agree!

If only we had had this conversation yesterday. Then the skies would've turned black and the rivers run red!

The US is Motivated by the Self-Interests of the Global Elite

And the global elite must monkey around with the 500 pound gorilla that is the public interest, they have to act through the american public, and that public is pretty selfish, this prevents it from being completely manipulated and exploited.

, but WE already ARE paying. All of us.

If you accept that everything is a sham, then yes. If Evil men rule the world, then us, we all suffer. Since they don't, we don't suffer. These organizations that you are talking about aren't part of some plot to take over the world. They are seperate organizations, working completely outside of each other, with varying degrees of success. And they all have to kowtow to the US, because the US is the real power in the world, they, at best, are influences. If the global corporate elite have formed an organization that gives them secret occultic influence over the US, its only as part of the System, and the other parts in that system are the public and private interests

So the signs are here Mate. You just have to connect the Dots.

But the alternative picture is one in which the US remains as global hegemon, rather than merely an element in a one world government.

And with each and every War, the Globalists are closer to their Goal,

A globalist is merely one who supports globalization, that is, the breaking down of national barriers to trade and the confluence of local markets into a global market. IOW, a free market, globally. Not one world governance. War, ultimately, works contrary to the interests of business. However much profit there is in manufacturing bullets and bombs, there's a hell of a lot more in doling out crass products to a pacified consumer. However much money there is in oil now, there's a heckuva lot more when there is peace and there aren't any pipelines exploding or interruption of supply.

And from then on, Middle East was a Stage for all sorts of Divide and Rule actions, performed by the West ofcourse

There were other more likely explanations for WWI than a secret design to get control of oil. Its from the fallout of WWI and the colonial 'enterprise' that we have the politics of the middle east in the 20th century.

Then the Zionists came and created the state of Isreal, which was designed to persude the powerful USA to enter the WW

Again, there are more reasonable and likely explanations behind the creation of israel, and thats a rather unwarranted way to merely influence the US.

and to create this "controllable conflict" between the Palestinians and Jews, which yet again helped to even further Divide and Rule the Middle East rich with Oil

But that was a set-up approved by the globe, via the United Nations. ANd it was relatively sensible, there was this territory, taken from the ottomans, and after ww2, there were these jews, nearly annhilated in europe, what else to do with them but put them into their old 'homeland'? And if you want control of oil in arabia, you take it. You don't need to go through this business of state nested within conspiracies. The saudis don't control the oil through anything like that, they just march their troops out and crack the heads of anyone that disagrees with them. If a global alliance of elite secret socieites that controlled most european governments, or even just the british governmnet, wanted arabian oil, they'd simply take it. The british have been as transparent as that before, they even cited the need to simply maintain "Imperial Supremacy" in south africa as a reason for the war against the Boers. If they had told the public, prior to wwi, in the middle of the height of the empire, about oil, they wouldnt' have to do any convincing to take it. Those imperial european states would frequently go to war with one another over resources as mundane as Coal Fields.

The Public is kept in the dark and they are manipulated on all of the levels of modern society

This though, is only true (de facto at that) if everything is a deception. If the Global Elite manufactured 911 in order to precipiate the iraq invasion to get control of oil, then sure, the war on terror isn't at all in the interests of the public. But, what if a small group of religious zealots really did hijack a couple of planes and crash them into some buildings? Then whats in the american's interests? Pacifisim? Divide and Conquer? Or installation of peacable democratic regimes???

Freedom is Slavery.

Ah but if its newspeak-land, then by enslaving the world the US is really liberating it.

Originally posted by Souljah

Originally posted by ShadowXIX
Well I guess the answer to my question is not very long. I feel bad for any women or non muslims that are going to have to go though that change.

Yes poor Women of Somalia.

Screw the ones in Saudi Arabia (and do not meat literally).

This is Your Hypocrisy showing - and the hypocrisy of the US goverment.



[edit on 7/6/06 by Souljah]

Give me a break I feel bad for women in any Muslim country that have to deal with arcane laws. But I find it alittle lame that you have to make a point that I didnt mention Saudi Arabia.

Do I have to list every muslim country were women are treated like crap? This thread is about Somalia. and I stated my opinion about that country and what is looking like their new muslim rule.

I feel bad for the women of

Saudi Arabia
Iran
and any other country where they are treated like that

So get over your self.

Originally posted by Nygdan
All Hail Evil-Merodach, down with Jehoiachin!

King of Kings, Lords of Lords, the Conquering Lion of Judah shall PREVAIL!

If the whole city rose up against the islamists they could crush them, within a single day.

Maybe - but have you seen any un-armed mob of people storming guys with AK's? Not likely to happen, since people in Somalia are not very known bullet-dodgers.

The ability or inability of the average somali to stand up for himself is not my concern. If they want peace, they'll have to fight for it.

Yes, but can they fight for their Peace, if nobody from the Ouside wants Peace here? Not the Islamists fueling the fires, nor the US fueling the same fires? How can you fight for peace, when superpowers in control do not want peace here. You simply are condemned to loose. And seriously - we have no idea what is going on in there, since there are as many journalists in Africa as there are vitamins in #.

So they say. We are also giving the terrorists someone to hit, the secular warlords, rather than US. If we sat by and did nothing at all, then the islamists would run the whole country, and that would be used to attack us. This way, they are kept in anarchy, and we use our proxies to hit them.

So they say? Don't you notice the increasing of terrorist attacks since 9-11 - and I do not mean in Baghdad? I do not think that an averege somali islamist has a big desire to come to USA (and I do not think he would even enter) and start blowing stuff up. Do you honestly think Somalia rerpesents ANY kind of danger to the mighty USA? With what? Few thousand armed Islamists? How exactly are they going to "Attack USA"? With what? AK's?

So said the pacifists and anti-war activists. Meanwhile, the death camps were in full swing and bombs were loaded onto Zeros.

Nope - that is said by the people who investigated the WW2 from a different perspective; are you aware how many US and UK corproations and banks were in business with Nazi Germany up until 1944? Even the rise of Hitler was created by the Elite, since they needed a Man in there - an Arch Enemy, so they gave him Billions of dollars. They Elite then made around 180 billion USD out of war-profits from the WW2. Nice money ey - while the young Americans were dying on the beaches of Normandy.

We All Got Played.

And the global elite must monkey around with the 500 pound gorilla that is the public interest, they have to act through the american public, and that public is pretty selfish, this prevents it from being completely manipulated and exploited.

Hey - the Public is sooooo Easy to Manipulate; if you own the Media, Banking, Military, Economy, Politics, Intelligence, Police - well basicly everything. And I do not mean just American public - the People of this World are ALL Manipulated. Everybody is programmed, even before they are born. We all live in a Prison. A Matrix. I think it is time to Wake Up.

If you accept that everything is a sham, then yes. If Evil men rule the world, then us, we all suffer. Since they don't, we don't suffer. These organizations that you are talking about aren't part of some plot to take over the world. They are seperate organizations, working completely outside of each other, with varying degrees of success. And they all have to kowtow to the US, because the US is the real power in the world, they, at best, are influences. If the global corporate elite have formed an organization that gives them secret occultic influence over the US, its only as part of the System, and the other parts in that system are the public and private interests

I truly Hope you are right - but I higly doubt it. I think that these Elite are VERY much inter-connected with eachother and work for one same goal. They use their connections to get a jump start for everything. For example; the Kennedy Assassination - the Warren Commison, which establishede that L.H.Oswald was a "one-man-army" included the following members:

• Chief Justice Earl Warren: 33rd degree Freemason, connected to organized crime syndicates, close friend to newspaper columnists, which helped him to spread the story across the media.
  
• Allen Dulles: Head of CIA fired by JFK; he helped to fund Bolsheviks and Hitler and a Law firm which handeled his affairs with Nazi Cartel I.G. Farben. He was also the head of the notorious MKUltra project, member of Council for Foreign Relations and the Bilderberg Group.
  
• John J. McCloy: Chairma of the Council for Foreign Relations, Ford Foundation and Chase Manhattan Bank (owned by David Rockefeller), member of Committe of 300, founder of UN - but after WW2 he ordered the reales of Hitler'b bankir Hjalmar Schacht, and others.
  
• Gerald Ford: 33rd Freemason degree Freemason, member of Council for Foreign Relations, Bilderberg Group and the Rockafeller controlloed Eastern Establishment, Vice President to Nixon at time of Watergate.
  
• J.Edgar Hoover: 33rd degree Freemason, legendary directory of FBI and Master Manipulator, who hated JFK, who planned to remove him in 1964. Connected to Anti-Defamatiojn Leageu and Mossad.

What a Coincidence! And we all know what a CRAPPY results the Warren Commission came up with - and those who belive them, must also belive in Santa!

But the alternative picture is one in which the US remains as global hegemon, rather than merely an element in a one world government.

Well, I do not see that picture anymore - I just see Elite Masters of Puppets pulling all the strings, and making USA look like a global hegemon, but instead it is just their tool to install One World Goverment, One World Army, One World Currency and One World Religion.

A globalist is merely one who supports globalization, that is, the breaking down of national barriers to trade and the confluence of local markets into a global market. IOW, a free market, globally. Not one world governance. War, ultimately, works contrary to the interests of business. However much profit there is in manufacturing bullets and bombs, there's a hell of a lot more in doling out crass products to a pacified consumer. However much money there is in oil now, there's a heckuva lot more when there is peace and there aren't any pipelines exploding or interruption of supply.

Globalism is breaking down barriers of Market - at first. But that is one step closer to One World Order; think about it. Countries which are not in this WTO add tariffs to the imported goods, which is BAD for the WTO and the Globalists. Thus meaning that this Independant countries are not at all dependant on tis global system because they produce for themselves what they need. That is not good for the WTO. "Free Trade" is the freedom of Strong to exploid the Weak. It sis the means through which mutlinationals operate "Cartelism" against interests of GENERAL population of this planet. The freedom to steal their food, land, industries and endanger those in the developing countries. By doing this the Elite creates Anger, Despair and Division - perfect for Manipulation of Population.

But that was a set-up approved by the globe, via the United Nations.

UN is yet another creation of the Global Elite - filled with their members and infiltrators, which also makes it just another Tool which they can use.

ANd it was relatively sensible, there was this territory, taken from the ottomans, and after ww2, there were these jews, nearly annhilated in europe, what else to do with them but put them into their old 'homeland'?

The location of Isreal hosted population of Palestinians, which were MORE connected to Jewish ancestors then any later migrated jewish people from foreign countries, like Europe or America. At the time of creation of Isreal less then 1% of population was actually jewish in Palestine. Again here is where the Global Elite came in and decided what is best for who, used both Arabs and Jews are little peons on the table and divided Middle East for their Oil Greedy purposes.

And if you want control of oil in arabia, you take it.

Oh yeah? What if I want to control the Rocky Mountains? Can I take it?

This though, is only true (de facto at that) if everything is a deception. If the Global Elite manufactured 911 in order to precipiate the iraq invasion to get control of oil, then sure, the war on terror isn't at all in the interests of the public. But, what if a small group of religious zealots really did hijack a couple of planes and crash them into some buildings? Then whats in the american's interests? Pacifisim? Divide and Conquer? Or installation of peacable democratic regimes???

The Global Elite has done much similar things in the past, and I am more then positive that they are behind 9-11 also. Why is it so hard to do? You have people EVERYWHERE! You can Buy yourself Religious Zealots which actually WILL crash airplanes into buildings - and even if they don't, you can remotly control this planes and crash them anywhere you like. You have people in CIA, NSA, USArmy, USAir Force, USAir Control, NORAD, US Goverment, FBI, the Media - everywhere. You just create a Stage, gather all the Players and start the "Show" for the People. Give them a Spectacle and they will BELIVE anything you say.

Ah but if its newspeak-land, then by enslaving the world the US is really liberating it.

Yes, and by spreading War you are actually spreading Peace, and by spreading Ignorance you are actually spreading Knowledge?



But we have already headed WAY of topic of this thread - hey aren't you the Moderator!

Mogadishu was and will always be a crap hole in the world. Let it burn. Stay away from it and just let it burn right to the ground.