The Catholic Church practices symbolic cannibalism

Originally posted by Nakash
Do you honestly think Jesus Christ has anything to do with a wine God (and a minor deity of Rome at that)?

Not directly. I'm speaking, as Frazer was, of the evolution of a ritual from its primitive origins, through the mystery cults of the ancient world, enfin into Christianity.

Your also confusing Dionysus with Heracles (the supposed Saviour of the Greeks and also progeny of Zeus).

No, I am not. See above comment.

I really need to ask a question to all the Christ haters and difamers- if Christ was indeed pagan, then...

I have nothing against Jesus; he seems to have been an unusually decent sort as well as an original if somewhat unpragmatic thinker. Nor am I suggesting that he was in any way a 'pagan'. He was, as is quite widely known, a monotheist; specifically, a Jew. Your remaining questions are not, therefore, relevant. My premise -- that the Eucharist is indeed symbolic cannibalism, a widespread and venerable institution that the Christian faith has chosen to adopt, along with festivals like Christmas and Easter, from the pagans -- is unaffected.

Originally posted by point
I have had one overly emotional member throw a literary
tantrum laced with childish personal attacks in a U2U.

If someone has sent you something inappropriate then you should
report it. Copy or forward the U2U to a moderator.

this indicates to me is that I have touched apon a valid
topic that warrants deeper investigation.

.... or you have been severely insensitive and/or ignorant in your
accusations ... or your anti-Catholic bias shows... or that person
was emotional because you approached a subject the wrong way
... or was emotional because you attacked (without provocation)
something dear to them... or because you were flat out WRONG.

There are many other things that could indicate

The Catholic Church has corrupted His teachings to suit its own ends.

And so it continues ....

The anti-Catholics are going to pound away and not bother reading
what has been posted (let alone try to understand).
The Catholics who understand the doctrine of the Eucharist have posted
information and CHRIST's OWN WORDS that show the command of the
eucharist and the eucharistic 'ritual'.

Ya'll want to hate the Catholic faith? That's your choice.
But discussion with you is useless. My last advice on this
thread - (not that anyone will actually follow through with it)
go back and read the links that have been posted and
dump your preconcieved anti-Catholic notions that have been
pounded into you by fundamentalist preachers (or whoever).
Pray about it before, during, and after you investigate.
IF the Holy Spirit guides you (and not the demon spirit),
you will have your eyes and hearts opened to the truth.

I hold no malice for you. I'll pray for ya'll.

biblia.com...
www.therealpresence.org...
www.ewtn.com...
www.catholic.com...
www.catholic.com...

John 6:54-57 - Then Jesus said to them: Amen, Amen, I say unto you:
except you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you shall
not have life in you. He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath
everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day. For my flesh is meat
indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh and drinkethmy
blood abideth in me: and I in him.

BTW - this STILL belongs with biblical interpretations down in BTS.
bu-bye


[edit on 5/15/2006 by FlyersFan]

point...........if you want to post something about the roman catholic church...........look at the movie"the omen" and how damien thorn was created by the catholic church.priests I BELIEVE switched the babies.killed the normal one for the jackal one.it's obviously symbolic...........but damien totally freaks out when he's about to go into the the church.they don't have to practice all those things you mentioned they do it without even knowing they are doing it.......it's a silent murder of the hearts and souls.........who wind up in mental institutions.THE NEXT POPE WILL BE THE ANTI-CHRIST.

[edit on 15-5-2006 by geno]

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by point
this indicates to me is that I have touched apon a valid
topic that warrants deeper investigation.

.... or you have been severely insensitive and/or ignorant in your
accusations ... or your anti-Catholic bias shows... or that person
was emotional because you approached a subject the wrong way
... or was emotional because you attacked (without provocation)
something dear to them... or because you were flat out WRONG.

There are many other things that could indicate

These are all things it indicates to YOU FlyersFan, the only thing that it indicates to point is that he/she has touched upon a valid topic that warrants deeper investigatation.

Ah the eternal joy of neverending fractals of relativistic opinion eternally bereft of any measurable facts

Can I ask again, what is the "conspiracy" implicit in this though? If all Catholics are being enslaved to a ritual that has no purpose, what is the benefit/detiment to anyone in doing so? Whence "conspiracy"?

Cheers.

Rob.

[edit on 15-5-2006 by d60944]

Flyers Fan,
Using the Bible to justify or interpret and explain anything of a historical nature including what Jesus' did and did not say is in my opinion an extremely flawed though understandably popular path.
I have not tried to interpret the Bible in any way. It is a largely pointless pursuit because it is highly corrupted in its present form by the very church that uses it to justify its supposed authority to be a conduit between man and God.

I feel my observation of the symbolic cannibalism practiced by the church would be apparent to many an unbiased layman that had witnessed this ritual for the first time.

Originally posted by point
I feel my observation of the symbolic cannibalism practiced by the church would be apparent to many an unbiased layman that had witnessed this ritual for the first time.

Of course, you are ignoring my post showing it is not cannibalism aren't you?

It's rather irellevant what an unbiased layman interprets if they are actually an uneducated (regarding this practice) layman. Not really the path of denying ignorance to have a first impression and think you should form an interpretation without truly studying what it is you saw.

Originally posted by d60944
Ah the eternal joy of neverending fractals of relativistic opinion eternally bereft of any measurable facts

Can I ask again, what is the "conspiracy" implicit in this though? If all Catholics are being enslaved to a ritual that has no purpose, what is the benefit/detiment to anyone in doing so? Whence "conspiracy"?

Cheers.

Rob.

[edit on 15-5-2006 by d60944]

we are sorta talking about this on this thread www.abovetopsecret.com...
sun_matrix has pretty much explained the conspiracy and where it came from, go check it out

Satan chose the mark of the sun because he knew God's plan. He knew God was going to send his own Son to pay the price for the sins of men.

Therefore Satan became the sun (Baal), as the deceiver to keep men from seeing Gods Son. Satan has blinded the world to the story of the sun. It's everywhere, all over the world in different forms. An example would be false god Zeus having a human son, Hercules. Son of god, just a different form of the lie that blinds the world. Nimrod is Zeus, by the way.

In Babylon, Nimrod was killed by Shem because he killed his father and slept with his mother, Semiramis. Semiramis then created the false religion that blinds the world. Semiramis claimed that Nimrod became Baal, the sun, when he was killed. She further claimed that she became pregnant from the sun and was having a virgin birth of her son Tammuz. Tammuz was Nimrod rising from the dead. So you get the sun god, the virgin birth and the resurrection. The lie that blinds the world is born.

The truth is, Jesus the Christ, the prophesied Messiah rose from the dead after paying the price for the sins of men. Those that seek this truth will find the truth. That is a guarantee from God. Those that believe that the Messiah died for their sins will be saved. Obedience to Gods word is the proof that you have faith in the Messiah.

Or, you can choose the mark of the sun.




Sun Matrix

member





posted on 14-5-2006 at 05:38 PM Post Number: 2182182 (post id: 2207218) - printer friendly

A few more Matrix tidbits.

When Tammuz was 40 years old, he was killed by a wild boar while hunting. Nimrod, Tammuz and Semiramis were real people by the way. Osiris, Horus and Isis are the Egyptian version of the same story.

After Tammuz was killed his death was morned for 40 days prior to the spring festival. This 40 days of mourning is where Lent comes from. The fact that Tammuz was killed by a wild boar, is why it is tradition to eat a ham on Easter. A little revenge you see.

It is claimed that an evergreen tree sprung up overnight from blood on the ground from Tammuz. This evergreen tree is where the Christmas tree comes from. It is in Jeremiah 10 of the Bible. That is why on Dec 25th, the birthday of the "sun god" the Christmas tree is present. It is a symbol of resurrection. In Egypt, the Palm tree is used. Masons also use this evergreen tree in their ceremonies.

Don't let the lies of the deceiver keep you from seeing the truth of God's Son, the Messiah. Seek Him and you will find him. Seek the truth

[edit on 15-5-2006 by Funkydung]

Wow, Valhall - way to argue your point without being offensive. There are a number of things that I don't approve of, but I can remain polite while presenting a dissenting view. As that sage once proclaimed "Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit."

'Christ-bone-crackers'? Sorry, that's just really offensive.

One of the mysteries of the Faith is the Eucharist. The Council of Trent determined the doctrine when it said “. . . by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation.”

To keep things simple, we will touch on the concepts of accidents and substance. When one considers the wafer and the wine, we see the physical aspects. The wafer is white, it is round, it has taste and texture consistent whether it is consecreted or no. The wine has the same color, consistency, bouquet, and taste. All of these attributes are called 'accidents' by philosophers. They are qualities and characteristics that are divined by the corporeal senses. In the course of Consecretion,the bread and wine undergo a change in substance - transubstantiation. Through the Revelation of Christ and His Grace, the substance is transformed. Catholics taking Eucharist are taking His substance as a sign of His Love for us.

Physical science cannot divine this change in substance as the senses only discern the philosophical 'accidents' and not the substance. What makes this miracle? Well, Catholics maintain that it is the Grace of God that transforms the SUBSTANCE into HIS mystical body. In the course of the Eucharist, we brought into His Fellowship. Do you want proof? Sorry, that's not what Faith is about. Faith is about belief.

I hope that this incredibly brief and simplistic treatment is helpful. I would ask that respondents treat me as I have treated those who do not share my point of view. You don't have to agree with me, but I would rather engage in a dialogue that is not offensive. If for no other reason, those who disagree with such invective as I have seen here actually diminish the strength of their argument.

Thank you for your courteous attention.....

How about Purim ear cookies?

Purim is the time when the Jews are encouraged to get bloody revenge against their perceived enemies. Murder, carnage, fiery slaughter and holocaust—history records that almost anything goes on Purim. Sexual orgies are common, and Purim is a regular Bacchanalia of wickedness, cruelty, and debauchery.

Even little Jewish children are encouraged to join in the mayhem, being provided triangle-shaped cookies rep-resenting the ears of ancient enemy Haman and also of modern-day victims. Rabbi Dr. Asher Meir, in a prominent internet article addressing the "Hamantashen" (flesh of Haman) tradition, admits:

"Among the most distinctive features of the Purim festivities are the special pastries known in Hebrew as 'oznei Haman,' literally, ears of Haman..."< td>

Ghoulish isn't it? Jewish children savagely chomping off the "ears of Haman" making noise and furor as they do so. This is a repulsive celebration of fiery racial hatred and pseudo-cannibalism on the part of Jews.

Now THAT look's like cannibalism to me

I can provide other rituals from other religions to difame them too you know. I'm not going to sit here hearing a bunch of people calling Christians cannibals when Ive noticed things which make the Lord's supper look like what it precisely is- a symbolic ritual celebrating the atonement of Christ for all human beings, not some pagan blasphemy.

[edit on 15-5-2006 by Nakash]

Originally posted by Nakash
How about Purim ear cookies?

...Jewish children savagely chomping off the "ears of Haman"...

I can provide other rituals from other religions to difame them too you know. I'm not going to sit here hearing a bunch of people calling Christians cannibals...

Well, well. The truth will out, won't it, Nakash? We'll come to that later. First...

As I said in an earlier post, there is nothing particularly unique about Christianity. Symbolic cannibalism exists in other religions, too, though the example you have chosen is about as reprehensible as Christian children eating gingerbread men. It's a nursery ritual, lacking the authentic heathen darkness and psychic potency of god-eating, the rite many Christians (not just Catholics) practice and defend.

Now let's take a look at your external source, which you have lifted from here. Your "authority" is a ranting hatemonger of the foulest, most bigoted, most degenerate kind: Texe Marrs. And you had the gall to cast aspersions on the credibility of Sir James George Frazer!

Here, for the benefit of our friends on ATS, is the sentence that immediately follows the extract you quoted:

Judaizer Christians who continually exalt the Jews as holy examples or who falsely proclaim the Jews as "God's Chosen" people, take notice!

Charming. Why didn't you quote that too, so that people would know exactly where you're coming from?

The opinions of a person like Texe Marrs, who is so poorly educated he doesn't even know how to spell his own name, are not worth discussing -- unless you're the kind of person who cuts holes in white bedsheets.

Are you? Is this really where you're coming from? Pathetic.

[Edited to remove gruesome personal reference from title.]

[edit on 16-5-2006 by Astyanax]

Personally I think Religion is the curse of hummanity and for the weak minded who are out there looking for a meaning in life. Religeon has been used as an excuse to persecute, torture and murder men, women and children for the last 2k years and continues to do so. While people have starved to death the mighty religions have sat back in their palaces and cathedrals. If you want to worship, worship the earth and nature thats whats important to us all not a pile of old bull perpatrated by an elite.

Originally posted by Relentless
Cannibalism:

1 : the usually ritualistic eating of human flesh by a human being
2 : the eating of the flesh of an animal by another animal of the same kind

I'll just add this wee little point regarding the term cannibalism.

The dogma of transubustantiation is that the consecrated bread and wine are his Body and his Blood, with his soul and his divinity, the key being "with his soul and divinity".
It is no longer the same species.

I couldn't see the point of a reply to this.
Anyway, here's my reply because you insist:
Very weak logic. How does this show it is not "SYMBOLIC" cannibalism?
Every priest I've witnessed performing the ritual seems to forget to mention this all important 'key'.
The focus is on the Body and to a lesser extent(special occasions?) the Blood.

[edit on 16-5-2006 by point]

Originally posted by Relentless
It's rather irellevant what an unbiased layman interprets if they are actually an uneducated (regarding this practice) layman.

It is far from irrelevant.
An unbiased layman may interpret a particular religious ritual with possibly more clarity than a very much biased indoctrinated believer.
The very much biased indoctrinated believer has not the "outside the square" perspective that an outsider to the religious ritual may possess.
The outsider may actually call a spade a spade, whilst the indoctrinatee will quite probably simply quote or paraphrase dogma.

If it looks like symbolic cannibalism and sounds like symbolic cannibalism then chance are it is symbolic cannibalism.
Sometimes one does not see the wood for the trees.

[edit on 16-5-2006 by point]

Originally posted by point


The 'SYMBOLIC' cannibalism is obvious to all who wish to see with unblinkered eyes.

Who'd know better than a Catholic? No, its not cannibalism. Its all symbolic.

*Goes off to eat flesh and drink hot blood"*

You cant be too careful with those Catholics.

-Your friendly Opus Dei Representative-

[edit on 16-5-2006 by dgtempe]

Originally posted by magicmushroom
Personally I think Religion is the curse of hummanity and for the weak minded who are out there looking for a meaning in life. Religeon has been used as an excuse to persecute, torture and murder men, women and children for the last 2k years and continues to do so. While people have starved to death the mighty religions have sat back in their palaces and cathedrals. If you want to worship, worship the earth and nature thats whats important to us all not a pile of old bull perpatrated by an elite.

Hmmmmm. My council of hte Knights of Columbus raised and sent a few thousand dollars to Katrina victims. The year before that, we sent $2000 to a mission priest in Indonesia who squandered the money on food for the hungry, clothing for the naked, and medicine for the sick. We also donate time, money, and talent on our local food pantries and soup kitchens. My own parish operates a food pantry and soup kitchen. We also help subsidize the costs of a community homeless shelter. My diocese - through an organization known as Catholic Charities - operates a number of shelters, pantries, and food kitchens. This group provides psychiatric counselling, operates batter women programs, provides transitional housing, helps unwed mothers stay healthy, bring their child to term, and assists them to either keep it or assist in adoption....yeah, I guess you're right. Catholics don't do enough to help the needy. Like the Neo-pagans, Druuids, and Wiccans are real potent forces for aiding the needy.

Please do me a favor and don't trot out the pedophile priest business. We all know that there were - and still are - vipers in our midst. Is this going to be the stock response whenever someone points out the tremendous amount of GOOD things that organized religion does every day without making the front page?

It is true, the Catholic Church does provide many helpful services along with many other organizations in the field of charity and help for the homeless etc.
There are many good people that make up the ranks of the clergy and many more that make up the ranks of its parishoners.
Many are born into the church and grow up being fed various dogmatic beliefs from an early age.
Few unfortunately in later life even attempt to question the beliefs and practices of their religion of birth because of this intense programming during their formative years.
They believe there is no further need to seek answers because the "experts" in their particular religion have done all the thinking for them and have told them all there is to know.
Questioning the beliefs of their particular religion is frowned apon, and familiar pressure plays a large role in keeping one from straying from their flock.
There is also the imposed fear of going to Hell or being damned or something similar, if one chooses another path. This is a very Evil tool to keep ones mind imprisoned in a particular belief system.
This occurs with many religions.
I believe it is of paramout importance to keep an open mind.
Look into a particular religions practices including their rituals, look into the deeds of its past and research its origins and validity of its claims with an unbiased eye.

The Bible contains much that can aid and comfort and give strength. Unfortunately there is also much within to cause fear and hate.
It has been translated, distorted, corrupted, added to, had sections deleted, and borrows heavily from older history/mythology.
Do you think the many that have tampered with the original texts and chose which of these distorted texts to include in the current popular version of the Bible were all pure of intention and incapable of error?
A quote from Jesus from the "Gospel of Thomas" from the Nag Hammadi Library.
"The Pharisees and scribes have taken the keys of knowledge and hidden them"

[edit on 16-5-2006 by point]

Originally posted by point
They believe there is no further need to seek answers because the "experts" in their particular religion have done all the thinking for them and have told them all there is to know.
Questioning the beliefs of their particular religion is frowned apon, and familiar pressure plays a large role in keeping one from straying from their flock.
There is also the imposed fear of going to Hell or being damned or something similar, if one chooses another path. This is a very Evil tool to keep ones mind imprisoned in a particular belief system.

You know what - this doesn't describe a single Catholic I know. In fact, the majority of "cradle Catholics" have gone just the other way, as seen even in this thread rejecting their religion altogether. None of them have been programmed to a point where they "fear" damnation.

In fact, it is the ones who questioned, rejected and then came back that are most devout and it has nothing to do with programming, but rather their own search for God and their truth in the end.

What you describe may have been true last in the 40's-50's, but it does not describe Catholics raised after that.

It seems you are more programmed to preconceived about Catholics then any Catholics I know.

Astyanax, I obtained a picture of a well known gourmet item of Judaism and the ritual entailed within it. If it sounds bad it's not my fault, and I don't care about What Marrs has to say on other issues if he is right on this. That's what makes research- getting what can be substantiated and discarding the rest. Are you denying this takes place? Because it does. I made a point in removing anything Marrs said which could be construed as imagined or invented, I DID leave reference to this since I have noticed that most of the people making these unwarranted pathetic critiques on Christianity seem to come from that background. Anyway, I might have been somewhat mean spirited, my apologies if I in *anyway* offended you beliefs, that is something I DARE not do to anybody since I find it very disrespectful when others do it to me and others I know.


I do criticise Frazier though- many of his links and comparisons weren't as common sense as he proclaimed them to be. He is definitely without a pause my favourite Anthropologist/Sociologist though (I never figured out why we spent so much time on thinkers such as Weber or Durkheim when Frazier's depth of thought was so much more relevant to understanding our everyday belief systems).

[edit on 16-5-2006 by Nakash]

Originally posted by Nakash
Are you denying this [Purim ears] takes place?

No, of course not.

Anyway, I might have been somewhat mean spirited, my apologies if I in *anyway* offended you beliefs, that is something I DARE not do to anybody since I find it very disrespectful when others do it to me and others I know.

No apology necessary.

Two reasons why:

First, you haven't offended against anything I believe in. If it seems as if you have, well, I was raised in an old debating tradition that cherishes forceful argument and "taking the fight to the enemy". Adding a touch of artificial chaleur to my responses is part of that. Still, I try never to be rude or personal, or to take refuge in falsehood and exaggeration. Apart from that, anything pretty much goes with me.

Second: unlike you, I'm not always willing to cut other people's beliefs so much slack. If those beliefs include (for example) things like "homosexuality is a sin" or "female circumcision is an essential rite of our faith", I feel free to criticize and even offend if I think that will help contain their spread. On the principle that one should never dish out what one cannot take, I am more than willing to hear other people offend against my own beliefs in the same way. I'll just answer back, as strongly as I can. I believe people have the right to try to make the world a better place according to their lights. Since we don't all agree on what would make the world a better place, arguments arise. This is good, I think, whether or not the arguments are ever resolved, because it's when the talking stops that the guns begin to speak.

I don't care to divulge a great deal of personal information at this forum, but if you've noticed me here at all you've probably noticed from my posts that, as a person, I don't have much time for religious faith. I'm an old-fashioned empiricist. I am, however, deeply interested in religion from the point of view of a student of human nature. It is from that standpoint that I've participated in this thread.

If you would step outside the frame of your beliefs and look at what I've been saying from that viewpoint -- a little Gedankenexperiment, as Uncle Albert would have called it -- you may find we have less to disagree about than you think. You see, the idea that certain Christian rituals are adapted from pagan practice is not in conflict with the proposition that Christ was really God made man -- or, as you may prefer to put it, the Way, the Truth and the Life. This may seem surprising to you, but if you think about it a little you will see that it really is so.

As for Frazer, he probably isn't as black as he's painted. You must remember that his work offends a wide range of people. Religious folk don't like his unfolding of religion out of magic and his implication that all faiths are equally susceptible to scholarly deconstruction; scholarly unbelievers in the social sciences can't bear him because his ideas are in conflict with their worship of Rousseau and Marx. I'd better not get onto that topic or my 5000-character limit will be soon exceeded.

I think of Frazer in much the same way as I think of Jung -- as someone who had an accurate but essentially intuitive apprehension of human institutions and behaviour, the creator a model we can use to understand ourselves and our societies better, even though the science or scholarship underlying the model is bad. In other words, their work partakes of artistic rather than scientific truth. I'm saying this badly; if anyone is interested, we can talk about this some more and I'll try to make it clearer.

In conclusion, thanks for responding as you did rather than turning it into a quarrel. I admit my last post was a bit strong, but perhaps you'll admit I had reason.

[edit on 17-5-2006 by Astyanax]