How would the US fare in the next world war?

Originally posted by Heckman

Those professional "trained servicemen" will not be able to stand against the US and allied forces. The biggest threat to the US will be those people dressed in "rags" that are knowledgeable in guerrilla warfare and the use of civilians as camouflage and shielding. If you are equating this to Vietnam consider the fact that the Viet Cong were not well trained and were often dressed in dark pajamas and "rags" using simple weapons.

maybe so, iran is a muslim country so of course your going to find civillans dressed as a muslim!!

but the point i'm making, afghanistan - years of conflict there, the people was glad of a country free of terrorists.

iraq - most of the people wanted saddam out!!

iran - noone wants 'foreners' on their land...what would you (as american civillian) do if you saw a russian patrolling around the your own street (blowing your neighbourhood up)?

would you take your rifle and open fire? - if the answer is yes (which i suspect it might be), can you see why the iranians would not want to see americans with the 'united states' flag above the vechles patrolling the streets?

a war in thier eyes (and many outside iran's eyes) robbing them for their riches (oil).

i'm telling you iran will be no iraq/alfganistan (its a disaster waiting to happen) i just hope britain isn't involved in it!!

the iraq war as already cost the US $300 billion (still rising) can the america afford to go into a 3rd war in 5 years?

a war which will no-doubt be tougher and no-doubt be more costly politically (for bush and his administration) and financially (for america as a whole).








[edit on 5-5-2006 by st3ve_o]

By most standards, Iraq was a military successe. Low casualties, Saddam captured, and all infrastructure used for war destroyed. You can't fight ideology though, if the population doesn't want a Republic but wishes for Mullahs you can't win, no matter how many troops you pump in. In that case, it is similar to Vietnam, tactical wise it is completely different (why the casulaties are so low).

America is the richest nation in the world , 300 billion in the long run isnt alot. Of course we can afford another war, its not like we are going bankrupt. The debt will be cut in half before 2010. Iran wouldnt be as easy as iraq, but its not going to be a major problem.WE all talk about iraq now like it is the biggest war of all time, it will be a paragragh in history books in the years to come. Its nothing , 3000 troops dead come on thats how many troops usually die in battles. That shows how good the usa military is. Russia got its ass kicked in afganistan, we didnt why because we are stronger and better organized. If we go to war with iran britain would have to get involved, it would be stupid is they didnt. They want a say in whats gonna happen pre and post war. I can see why they dont want us there, but its up to president bush, and his advisors its not based on what iran wants, its based on that the world doesnt want a crazy muslim nation to get the bomb. In all honesty i picture Israel bombing with the help of america.

[edit on 5-5-2006 by shortmanx5]

[edit on 5-5-2006 by shortmanx5]

[edit on 5-5-2006 by shortmanx5]

Originally posted by Daedalus3
Yup.. they'd own a lot of scrap metal on the ground..

The J-6s have been all sent to the reserves and some are being converted as drones. THe retirment of the J-6s started in the 1980s.

But one interesting fact is J-8 pilots in china get 180 hours flight time. Im just wondering about J-11 and J-10s

I dont see Israel getting involved directly. Maybe it would if countries dont do anything and Iran builds nuclear reactors. We see how they react to that by looking at Iraq.

shortmanx5 I think what st3ve_o is saying is that the US will not be able to afford a prolonged invasion war against a fighting populace because of the US public support. (I agree)

Since we (the US) are a democracy the support for such a conflict will be the biggest deciding factor. Consider the fact that every year approx 2 million young men in the US come of military age. (this is setting aside the already 54 million fit for military duty)
So in order to be defeated the US in a pure numbers war the killing would have to be a staggering number of millions upon millions. However war is never a pure numbers game of how many troops / possible troops.

In the USA support for such a war is the deciding factor not the casualties. If there is 100 casualties and no support then the US will not be able to maintain the war. (Why?? well because the first politicians to come along saying ILL PULL THE TROOPS OUT OF *where ever they are* AND BRING THEM HOME will be the elected right off the bat and there you have it , no more war) (this works in offices from the county level all the way up through state and federal level , one just has to take a look at Vietnam era politics.)
I agree that Iran's government should be stopped from producing nuclear weapons!!! That however isn't what this discussion is about...



[edit on 5-5-2006 by Heckman]

Once again I have to stop myself laughing at all the funny and ignorant replies to this subject. How would America do in the next world war, well they would loose, I dont know why some of you American's think your country is incapable of being invaded or your military to be beaten. Its quite simple:
1 America is becoming more and more isolated in the world, your loosing friends left right and centre (not that you had many in the first place).
2 America more than any other country relies on massive oil supplies, most of which comes from countries who's people dont like you.
3. No oil supply no military capability.
4. You have to rely on the good will of other countries to project your military power, without that you have no power projection.
5. You do not have the will to fight or commitment to go it alone
6. Past history has shown your armed forces to be on paper, capable but in reality below standard.
7. You have massive boarders and coastline to protect which you are incapable of defending (you cannot even keep mexicans out).
8) If 9/11 was a genuine terrorist attack (no it was not) how the hell are you going to stop an someone who's really determined to invade your country.
10. America will be beaten financially, which will in the end mean the collapse of your superpower status(along with your military prowess) and you will become a local regional power.
Finally, dont bother to argue with the above look at past history *snip* !!!





[edit on 5/6/2006 by 12m8keall2c]

America will be beaten finacially which will end and mean the collapse of your superpower status.

Beaten by whom??? how about you start giving some facts and theory's of who will do this so you can add to this discussion rather than just blind fact less accusations?

You do not have the will to fight or commitment to go it alone

LOL!!!!

Past history has shown your armed forces to be on paper, capable but in reality below standard

Really and what past history is that??

You have to rely on the good will of other countries to project your military power, without that you have no power projection.

Really?? How else do countries project their military whats wrong with using the good will of their countries???

If 9/11 was a genuine terrorist attack (no it was not) how the hell are you going to stop an someone who's really determined to invade your country.

I don't really understand what you are saying here. Taking over 3 unsuspecting jet airliners and committing suicide by crashing them into buildings isn't a military invasion. Or are you trying to say that 911 didn't happen???Make up your mind. It looks to me like you are just spewing hatred for Americans.

LOL look at all those angry Anti-American faces

Its not a case how would the USA fair in the next world war with or without the use of atomics but how would the whole world fair in another war that incompasses the world world,

Personally I think that using a quote from some US general when asked the same question just after the second world war (at laeast I think its was then)

Quote
"I couldn't tell you about World War 3, but world war 4 will be fought using bows and arrows"

So if there is another world that I think if it escalates past the use of "normal" wepons then We're all in the muck not just the USA.

[edit on 6-5-2006 by dragoonrider1999]

Personally I think that using a quote from some US general when asked the same question just after the second world war (at laeast I think its was then)
Quote
"I couldn't tell you about World War 3, but world war 4 will be fought using bows and arrows"

Actually that was Albert Einstein and he said " I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones!"

www.heartquotes.net...


[edit on 6-5-2006 by Heckman]

Hi Heckman. I thought the question was how would America fare in the next world war. I posted an answer, if you do not like the truth or like hearing other peoples views Im sorry for you. Beaten by whom, right lets start with Korea, we all won that one didnt we (coming back to haunt us now). Vietnam, the Vietnamese beat the french then they beat the USA. Please name me one conflict the USA armed forces has engaged in on its own (you sure wuped them Somalies and Grenadiens).
The point of 9/11 is that who ever was behind the attack if you cannot protect your country against this adhoc attack how will you defend yourself against a real aggresor. Potential and future aggresors are penetrating your borders as we speak, what about that. Also you did not comment on your reliance for oil or the fact that for America to project its power it needs and relies on others to do so. History, lets take the Roman empire or British, the point is that things run in a cycle you have a start a middle and an end. The same will happen to America its not personal its just history repeating itself. And any country can be attacked and invaded, again look at history its full of countries and empires being attacked.. And no I dont hate Americans or anybody what I hate is ignorance, you know calling people peasants, rag heads, gooks, the lets nuke em attitude. These are all phrases posted on this site so who are the real haters, sometimes you have to look in the mirror to really see. How about a bit more humility and understanding being posted on this site rather than the gung ho attitude. And just for you (your far too sensitive)

[QUOTE]
How are you gonna do that ask france if you can use there aircraft carrier for a while, nice try you would need more have 30 plus plus planes to put up a fight. We have 12 large carriers and some other small ones, the rest of the world has like 4 and they arent even all full size if any. What would be your plan PRay a lot. its a joke we are a superpower for a reason. if britian could beat us in a fight or if china could then they would be the power but its us. are gonna send all 300 or so fighters at us, we have more fighters on 4 or 5 carriers than your whole af.

[QUOTE]


i never said we would beat you that would be a miracle, i said we would cause a lot of damage to you.

and we would before we went out meaning thaqt you would then be even easier for somewhere like china to beat you.

its also very ignorant and very cocky to make such bold statements, i not anti american,but i can see why people ARE anti american when they see such outlandish and overboard statements like that, which is basically saying 'america, ub3r force of the world'!! america is NOT invincible,however they ARE highly capable in theyre own right.

Originally posted by shortmanx5
America is the richest nation in the world , 300 billion in the long run isnt alot. Of course we can afford another war, its not like we are going bankrupt. The debt will be cut in half before 2010. Iran wouldnt be as easy as iraq, but its not going to be a major problem.WE all talk about iraq now like it is the biggest war of all time, it will be a paragragh in history books in the years to come. Its nothing , 3000 troops dead come on thats how many troops usually die in battles. That shows how good the usa military is. Russia got its ass kicked in afganistan, we didnt why because we are stronger and better organized. If we go to war with iran britain would have to get involved, it would be stupid is they didnt. They want a say in whats gonna happen pre and post war. I can see why they dont want us there, but its up to president bush, and his advisors its not based on what iran wants, its based on that the world doesnt want a crazy muslim nation to get the bomb. In all honesty i picture Israel bombing with the help of america.

[edit on 5-5-2006 by shortmanx5]

[edit on 5-5-2006 by shortmanx5]

[edit on 5-5-2006 by shortmanx5]

hmmm..
Lots of corrections here..

Russia got its ass kicked in afghanistan because the opposition was provided with LOAAADDDSSS of money, state of the art equipment and satellite intel.Infact I can guarantee you that the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan would persisted if it werent for 3 things: Anti tank missiles, mortars, singer missiles.These were state-of-the-art weapons at that time..
Couple that with abundant money and sat intel..what do you get?
NOT what the insurgents had/have in afghanistan/Iraq today. Neither do they have the overt support of the Pakistanis..
If the insurgetns had todays equivalents of what they had against the soviets, then you'd wouldn't be so brash...
3000 soldiers in 3 years. It ain't going to stop unitlt he Us pulls out.
Infact I've seen most of your posts on this thread and I've found them.. well lacking in substance.
You need to back what you say with proof and logic..
You've mentioned somewhere that the US coast guard is the 4th largest naval body in the world. Huh??!!
Disregarding the sheer incorrectness in terms of numbers(Note:Russia, France,China, India), the power projection/stand-off defense capabilities that the US coast guard has are well miniscule compared to (again) the navies of Russia, France,China, India(I'm sure I'm missing some biggies here, apologies). Any coast guard wouldn't be able to do much against a edicated deep sea surface/sub fleet 1/10 its size.And then we have theatre nuke capable vessels,so........

I posted an answer, if you do not like the truth or like hearing other peoples views I'm sorry for you.

You posted your opinion with no facts to back it up. I am not the one that is saying

Finally, dont bother to argue with the above look at past history *snip* !!!

.... Even tho you produce no evidence of history backing up your claims.. It would see that you are in fact the one that doesn't like to hear the truth or hearing other peoples views.

Beaten by whom, right lets start with Korea, we all won that one didn't we (coming back to haunt us now).

My question of "beaten by whom " was to your statement that the US will be beaten economically. (scroll up and read it slowly keeping your jealous rage in check for a few moments.)
Unless you are somehow saying that Korea is going to surpass the US economically???
It looks like to me you are trying to imply the US and allies somehow lost the Korean war??? The Korean war was a UN action to deny the invasion of South Korea by communist forces that was successful!!!! www.korean-war.com...

Vietnam, the Vietnamese beat the French then they beat the USA.

In a post on previous posts I have already stated the reason that the US did not succeed in vietnam.... I'm not going to post it again...

The point of 9/11 is that who ever was behind the attack if you cannot protect your country against this adhoc attack how will you defend yourself against a real aggressor.

Surely you can see that the use of a few hijacked civilian jet airliners to carry out attacks against civilian targets is vastly different than a massive invasion / military attack against the U.S.

Potential and future aggressors are penetrating your borders as we speak, what about that.

Future aggressors penetrating our borders??? what are you talking about??? Do you think Mexicans and Canadians are going to attack the US??

Also you did not comment on your reliance for oil or the fact that for America to project its power it needs and relies on others to do so.

No doubt America's economy makes use of much foreign oil. There are massive untapped oil reserves in the US and off the coast of the US that are not being used and would be if other oil was not available.
I did comment on the reliance of foreign countries for power projections.. again scroll up and read carefully keeping your jealous rage in check.

History, lets take the Roman empire or British, the point is that things run in a cycle you have a start a middle and an end.

The U.S. has nothing to do with the Roman Empire or the British Empire... Besides that fact , they were both attacked many times before their "fall"

Rome was attacked and even sacked multiple times long before the empire fell. You along with many people do not realize that the British Empire would probably still be mostly intact if not for England's appeasement approach to letting Hitler build up Germany's military into a massive war machine. How about take a look at the British Empire before and during World War 2.
www.fleetairarmarchive.net...

On one hand you say America is Imperialistic and on another you say the US cannot fight war for them self. Your reasoning is totally contradicting to itself. The United States of America is not an Empire.

And any country can be attacked

Yes any country can be attacked thats defiantly not saying anything new and groundbreaking !!!!

I am through debating these things with you because just like most other staunch Anti-Americans you simply jump from one fact less statement to another , often contradicting what you have already said.



[edit on 6-5-2006 by Heckman]

lol its ok, let them of their turn!!

britain was on top for 450/500 years (it was only fighting 2 world wars from start to finish that ended our empire), but the british empire ended at what it always did best VICTORY!!

america as had 50/60 years of it (let them have their 15 mins of fame)

the way the $ and national debt looks, i think they will be lucky to see another 20 years of it with an upcoming china fast approaching!!

all serious though (i'm only messing about), i'm not anti-american - the only thing i don't like is the short-sightedness views of americans as a whole, the scary thing is its not just a small crowd of americans who live on 'planet america' it seems 80% of the US internet population do.














[edit on 6-5-2006 by st3ve_o]

Chinawhite what are you talking about?
I was talking abt the scrap of USAF gen 3 a/c on chinese soil 'if' they tried to achieve air superiority.
Air superiority over China is a near impossibility IMO, unless the war's been raging for at least a few years and China's reallly got itself stretched out bad.

short-sightedness views of Americans as a whole, the scary thing is its not just a small crowd of Americans who live on 'planet America' it seems 80% of the US internet population do

I agree that there seem to be many Americans that have an attitude. I think that most of the American "short-sightedness" statements are very similar to your "lashing out" earlier in the thread due to verbal attacks about your nation and national abilities. Pride often reacts violently when pricked with a even a very small needle!!

[edit on 6-5-2006 by Heckman]

Once again I have to stop myself laughing at all the funny and ignorant replies to this subject. How would America do in the next world war, well they would loose, I dont know why some of you American's think your country is incapable of being invaded or your military to be beaten. Its quite simple:

Now you have that off your chest , lets look at your “ evidence “ , OK , lets go with a point by point

1 America is becoming more and more isolated in the world, your loosing friends left right and centre (not that you had many in the first place).

this is more than your wishfull thinking , The former Warsaw pact , and eastern Europe ,[ practically falling over them selves to join the EU and NATO ] Egypt , Jordan , mongolia. Have all military and trade treaties with the US – treaties which would have been unthinkable a generation ago

Relations with Russia have never been better , and relations with Vietnam are normalizing , same with Cambodia

The USA has made friends and allies all over the world

Please name these “ many “ contries who you claim are now hostile , or no longer friendly to the US ???

Put up or shut up , your un evidenced assertions are getting tiresome

2 America more than any other country relies on massive oil supplies, most of which comes from countries who's people dont like you.

Incorrect , you may wish to look at the politics of the top 5 external sources for US oil

3. No oil supply no military capability.

The reality is that military requirements would be the LAST to suffer from any drop in supply .

Civilian gasoline [ automobiles ] and industrial prodiction would be the first targets of rationing

This is simple wartime logistics which should have been obvious

4. You have to rely on the good will of other countries to project your military power, without that you have no power projection.

So what ??????? and more to the point , lets turn the tables here , and ask – who can threaten the US from their home turf , WITHOUT [ AN THAT’S THE IMPORTANT CAVEAT ] being far MORE vulnerable to US retaliation

Independent power projection , is actually provided by carrier battle groups and MEU`s [ marine expeditionary forces ] ,

Why did you ignore this ???

5. You do not have the will to fight or commitment to go it alone

Hmmm, now you know how a nation will react to an undefined future event – lol

I seem to recall Hitler opined that the US would not fight , ooops – bad call

6. Past history has shown your armed forces to be on paper, capable but in reality below standard.

What is your basis for this ??? kasserine pass ???????? there is a follow up to that tale , which you conveniently forget

Also the US forces @ kasserine had ZERO actuall combat experience – their german opponents were battle tested divisions with 6 to 18 months constant combat under their belts

Again , put up or shut up – cite your examples from “ history “

7. You have massive boarders and coastline to protect which you are incapable of defending

Wrong again – maybe instead of laughing @ us , you should have though out your position more carefully

The US can defend its borders against what is IMPORTANT , if it needs too – and the more serious the situation – the greater protection can be afforded

Take the “ drugs & imigrans “ issue – it is claimed that the US cannot cope , or stem the flow – in reality there are fighting with BOTH hands behind their nack – if the US military went “ all batteries free “ with ROE to shoot first – the southern border would be sealed in an instant

You are confusinf what is possible , with what is acceptable in a free republic

(you cannot even keep mexicans out).

Non sequitor – see above ^ Id the US WANTED too the “ Mexican border problem “ could be solved over night

8) If 9/11 was a genuine terrorist attack (no it was not) how the hell are you going to stop an someone who's really determined to invade your country.

Another non sequitor , mattaias rust got a single engine Cessna past the entire soviet era air defence apparatus to land in moscows red square – no one sane claims this prioved that the BAOR could advance through the Warsaw pact with impunity

America is a free country 0—this makes it difficult to prevent pin prick outrages by a determined an secretive cadre of individuals who require little or no external support

Extrapolating this to an inability to address a multi division strength invasion by an external militaty force is insane

10. America will be beaten financially, which will in the end mean the collapse of your superpower status(along with your military prowess) and you will become a local regional power.

Unfounded speculation , kuschev claimed he would “ crush “ the us with his shoe – he was wrong too

Finally, dont bother to argue with the above look at past history

If you do not wish rebuttals , why post to a discussion forum ???

Please stop quoting this nebulous “ history “ , and cite dates and events which support your assertions

< logic is indeed dead >


[edit -- bad bb/ code ]

[edit on 6-5-2006 by ignorant_ape]

Hi Heckman How arrogant of you to think I am jealous of you or any American. Its to be expected I suppose, that's the trouble with some of you, you dont like hearing what is not pro American. You do not like hearing the truth, only your version of it. America today is seen as an aggressor by many people (just as we were with our empire). America in modern times has never been attacked or invavded so how well will you stand up to it when or if it comes either it be by EU, China, Russia, the mexicans (they might want New Mexico back). How well will you cope, no fighters available on 9/11, good job you were not invaded that day. How good are you at fighting defensively rather than offensively.
How arrogant for Americans to say only certain people can have nuclear weapons but not others. America is the only country to use atomic weapons against an unprotected civillian target, and no it was not used to save American lives it was about trying out the new technology. Your goverment is telling you lies to give you reasons to attack other countries who are no threat to you. You cannot have it bothways Heckman your telling me how capable America is so why do you or your goverment see these third world countries as a threat. Why should Iran or Korea want to attack America thats the question you should ask yourself. Maybe they are quite happy in the way they live and do not want American influence in their countries. Remember when Bush said any country that supports a terrorist group who attacks America then we will attack that country. Some American's supported the IRA financialy, do you think we would have had a just cause to bomb America using the same reasons. As for facts I have given them to you in my previous posting, and yes you are being beaten financially by the EU and China , check the figures. When you go shopping again check how many goods are from China or the EU, the more you buy of these products the quicker your economy will unraval. I know you find it unpalatable to see America taking a back seat but hey sh-t happens.