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'The sincerity of the Indian Air Force to participate in Kashmir's campaign was in inverse proportion to their hit rates' said an Indian Army Officer in Dras. He said for nearly three weeks after the airstrikes began on May 26, its effectiveness was 'near negligible'. In addition to losing two MIG series of fighters and one MI-17 helicopter gunship on two successive days in an environment which the Indian Air Force monopolised, the Air Force simply failed in destroying Pakistani 'sangars' (rock bunkers) or dislodging the intruders in any significant way. 'They (Air Force) were more show than go', said one Indian Army Officer in Dras.
The 'decisive battle flank' said an army officer in Dras, was the terrain and the high mountains. Sadly, the Indian Air Force pilots were unable to achieve combat effectiveness flying around 5 km above the minuscule targets and releasing their ordinance at 'safe heights'. At one point, early on in the conflict, the Indian Army is reported to have asked the Air Force to call off its airstrikes, which were not only proving ineffective, but were also posing a threat to troops ascending the hill sides.
Originally posted by chinawhite
mad scientist and rogue1 all in one. no wonder you guys sounded the same, same BS, same childish replies.
But all this time, why did you need to have two accounts?
..........The orbat is for the positioning of PLA units. Which ever person you are claimed that he had to PLAAF orbat for '62 to prove it wasn't there.
Like I am saying provide a reason and proof
And what, I've have already provided sources stating your figures are wrong
No you haven't.
Speed is not essential in a dog fight. Manuverbility is, which the sabre was superior
The Mig-15 was developed as a interceptor and was deployed as a interceptor, hence its heavy armament. The Mig-15s in the korean war were used to target bombers and attacks which meant it wouldn't be there dog fighting sabres. Hence the Mig-15s were trying to kill B-29s while the sabre was trying to kill the Mig-15s.
Im very sure. I know for a fact that china SUPPILED and OPERATED most if not all the AA guns in vietnam
Originally posted by chinawhite
You still did not address the points i brought up in the intial two post.
The second one was the main point about CAS from the indian airforce to highlight how ineffective air power would be
For more information how the indian airforce would have completly been useless would have been the chinese troops during korea. The area of korea is actually quite similar to the mountain peaks the chinese and indians would have fought in.
Now even with indias 200(?) possible fighters/bombers that could have been used in the war how do you think that will even match up to the USAF in numbers of weight of ordnance.
At the battle of Dien Bien Phu, the french used nalpam on the vietnamese soldiers in the jungle. They were dumping tonnes of it. Did the vietnamese bluge from the area?. Nope not even the slightest chance. Again how is the indian airforce going to get the exact location of chinese troops and use little naplam bombs to fight the chinese held up in their fight the chinese while they already had eperience againest air attacks dating from the long march and facing much MUCH greater odds than what the indians COULD have fielded.
Originally posted by rogue1
Haha, 2 words POT and KETTLE. Erm nice comeback LOL.
once again there was no orbat for the PLAAF because they weren't even there.
Erm, how about history, I suggest you read about Manchuria under Japanese occupation
I suggest you read back a few pages.
Well not accoding to teh people who fought in Korea, teh Mig-15 was regarded as the superior plane. Must have been that British engine in it supplied to the Soviets.
Bollocks, teh Chinese just weren't trained that well. The Mig-15 in teh hands of a capable pilot was more than a match for the Sabre
LOL, ok so you're rewriting history here, nice one . I would love to see your evidence of all of North Vietnams AAA guns being manned by Chinese.
Originally posted by rogue1
Completely useless comaprison. The CHinese had a tiny force compared to Korea in Tibet. Also you fail to neglect that teh CHinese in Jorea had a massive labour force that dug thousands of miles of tunnels for the PLA. The PLA in Tibet was not dug in and would hvae been very susceptible to CAS.
The 2 wars are incomparable. Your knowlege is military history is extremely weak at best.
LMAO, noe we've got another bizarre comparison to Dien Bien Phu, this is getting even stranger.
What next you'll mkae a comaprison to Englands defeat of the Spanish Armada, or HAnnibal crssing the Apls, HAHAHA.
Originally posted by chinawhite
Tunnels!!!!!!!
So the advance the chinese made in korea was done through tunnels?. Once a airforce starts lubbing bombs at you, you dig in. Even though the chinese soldiers dug in during korea they still lanuched offensives. If you were actually to study PLA tactics though the korean war and during the civil war they were completly brillant. Large scale night manuver warfare.
Originally posted by chinawhite
I have already suggested to you some books you would find quite interesting
"riding the iron rooster"
"The nationalist era in China"
"Understanding Asia"
And I have read extensively about the conflict english and chinese language
Originally posted by rogue1
Jeez Lousie, like I've said and you've shown, your knowlege of military history is extremely weak Yes Tunnels
I find it quite laughable that you still persist with this bizarre comparisin to the Sino Indian War
Hell it took you 2 pages to accept that you were wrong about aerodynamics, when I explained it in laymens terms even a child could understand.
Goodbye. As has been seen your credibilit is shot, other members have shown it as well.
LOl of course you have, was this in country Australia ? I could give you the names of 20 books I've read about the Korean War and teh names of hundreds of books from other conflicys, so what
The fact that you can read, doesn't impress me - I'm sure they had lots of pictures for you
Originally posted by Daedalus3
Your kargil claims are still bogus..
The militants were tucked in nice and cozy on positions which only airborne precision strikes could dislodge
Chinawhite you're comparing Korea, Vietnam and Kargil to the war of 62?
Gawd.. have you left out any mordern chinese conflict??!!
They weren't even backed up by sufficient supply lines. THATS WHY the chinese called a cease fire when they did.
Also there was no CAS for these troops and there was no chance of getting it in time. You can build your railways and your airfields but thats just pure conjecture, wishful fantasy even.
Originally posted by chinawhite
The question is,
How is the indian airforce going to hit a moving target when it couldn't even hit a static target with a much more modern plane.
Same goes for all the US bombings in the first half of the korean war. The chinese were advancing in colums though mountain/hilly valleys and even carpet bombing by B-29s didn't stop there advance.
Because all of those wars showed the effectivness of airpower on infantry, and
chinese infantry tactics to defeat the other ones weakness.
Thats the indian excuse. The more logical one would be that they chinese only employed a LIMITED force for LIMITED gain.
The original plan wasn't even to attack down south but instead just to recover the land which the chinese deemed as their own. In the end they recovered THREE times more land which they claimed and pulled out.
No time in the war did a indian defence hold up againest the chinese advance. Nothing stopped the advance from india
When the cease fire was declared, The chinese kept the original deal they had proposed to india. That was Askai chin for NEFA
I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT CAS SUPPORT
Even through the chinese army had about 100,000-500,000 soldiers in tibet at that point and 6 airfields in tibet at that time according to indias own MoD in the link rogue provided in page 11. China still could have prepared more airfields for combat.
Also Daedalus3 i want to go into the legality of the indian claim to tibet
Originally posted by Daedalus3
That doesn't even warrant a response. If your going to compare skewed info and then draw even more skewed conclusions then its pointless.
Maybe.. just maybe they had continuous supply lines.
So you're refuting all possibilities that the chinese infantry then and now could be/will be ever affected by air power?
So indian excuses aren't logical aye?
So why did they ditch Arunachal Pradesh then and then whimper/crib about it for the next 4 decades? Does that sound logical to you?
Compare the landmasses.
Originally posted by Daedalus3
6 airfields? hmm... Besides Lhasa I don't know of any other. Maybe you could point to those links again.
According to the official Indian history
of the war published by the MoD in 1992, the PLAAF was estimated to have
about 1,500 frontline fighters of the MiG-15, MiG-17 and MiG-19 class (refer
Table-1).9 The PLAAF had only six airfields in Tibet.
And if you're not talking about CAS then what the hec would those fighters have done?
Then there's the bit about how effective MiG 15s would been against interceptors like the Folland Gnat which were a generation ahead. The MiG's would had it rough with the fighter bombers like the Hunter,Ouragon,Mystere anyways.
The Gnat proved to be a frustrating opponent for the technically superior Sabres
And if the chinese had problems with the British then they should've taken it up with them then and there. Why wait for 15 years and then march on into Tibet?
Originally posted by chinawhite
According to the official Indian history
of the war published by the MoD in 1992, the PLAAF was estimated to have
about 1,500 frontline fighters of the MiG-15, MiG-17 and MiG-19 class (refer
Table-1).9 The PLAAF had only six airfields in Tibet.
Link
If one sets up a airbase and airfields there would have been aircraft stationed at those bases. They were no commerical airports but military airbases. Commerical filght was non-existant in china at the time. The only aircraft china had at the time in service were either Mig-15/17/19 or even the Mig-21. If three airbases or six airfields were not filled with planes when they had just been built in the 1950s why would they have been built for?
Do you think that the PLA or china had a non-existant truck or car industy in the '50s?. China had been mass producing trucks since 1953 and there were over 100,000 trucks built for all purposes.
If you think that they couldn't have been used to move supplies into tibet very quickly and most problay faster than what the indians coud supply to their own forces then your kidding yourself.
How big was indias war industry?. Oil supplies?. Logistics organistion?.
I know china was self sufficient in war materials because they had their own industries, In oil until the 1980s and the logistics had been tested for five major compaigns
The chinese airforce doctrime has always been air denial. They would go in for the intercept so that ground pounders like the Hunters,Ouragon and Mystere of the indian would be distracted from their mission to be able to furfill it properly. All the chinese fighters needed to ahve done was keep the indian fighters busy so that the ground force could do its magic.
And about the amount of planes. My estimates range from 50-100 planes that could be supported.
According to wikipedia
The Gnat proved to be a frustrating opponent for the technically superior Sabres
en.wikipedia.org...
If the Sabre was technically superior to the Gnat and the Mig-15 was comparable to the sabre than that would make the Mig-15 better or at least equal to the Gnat in performace except for the climb rate.
If china wasn't being invaded, having a civil war then that would have been first priority. Why would china need to attack the first day when it can wait and attack when its house is in order.
Originally posted by Daedalus3
We're talking about 1962 and not 1992. You have no info on 1962.
According to the official Indian history of the war published by the MoD in 1992
No only the MiG -15s were in service at the time in question.
The MiG 17s or J-5s were available in few numbers and production only picked up in the late 60s.
No, I'm saying there wasn't any infrastructure to support the same, east of Xian esp in Tibet in 1962.
I can give you maps which show roads and rail routes upto all the fwd bases I've mentioned before. All this in 1962.
ALL of China? Even tibet? A region China had just waltzed into only a couple of years back?
Yeah.. they'd barely be able to make to the theatre before having to scurry back because of fuel shortages. Get real cw.
You'd need at leas 3 BIG or 5-6 small airfields to support that quantity you estimate.
I admit that the MiG 15 was comparable to the Gnat ,but its lacked a vital feature for mountainous warfare which as you mentioned was rate of climb.
Why attack? Why not let the people decide?
Originally posted by chinawhite
Why is it skewed?.
I am doing a comparison between the indian airforce then and now. If it was not able to hit a fixed target with bombs how is it going to hit a moving target in a vast expanse or small mountain trails in a jungle. Where is the wayward comparison?
Not to mention that the indian airforce was using aircraft which were two generations ahead of anything avabile in '62. The question stands, Fixed vs Moving
Your saying it as though the chinese forces were the only ones having a supply problem
If we do a comparison or ratio between the amount of troops involved and the amount of bombs dropped per soldier the korean war still had by a long shot more weight or fire per soldier than any indian attack.
The chinese in tibet would have had as much support per soldier as did in korea. Simply because the fact that 1962 was a much improved situation for the PRC as a whole compare to china in 1950. And the fact that 100,000-500,000 PLA soldiers were already in tibet at the time. Either logistic soldiers or combatants.
Like i have already mentioned in the past few pages, Tibet is not isolated. Its not the tibet of movies where the terrain is unbelievably difficult to move in. Once you get past the intial hurdles like sichuan, the places flattens out because its a plateau.
I dont know why its so hard to accept that tibet wouldn't have been as hard to supply as you are describing
By the time in the korean war, china had seen war for almost 100 years. In 1962 china was centrally controlled and better organized than during the korean war and able to supply a army offnsive beter. Not to mention that Chengdu was more developed than Manchuria if we have a 1950 comaprison to a 1962 comparison
You suggest that the indian airforce if utilized would have turned the war in favour of indian ground forces. While i am saying that the indian airforce would ahve had a effect but mimal at best to stop the chinese advance
At the battle of Chosin Reservoir. The PLA fought againest a marine divison while being pounded by air, sea and land yet the marines with all the firepower concentrated on the chinese still did not win that engagment.
The PLA was even in a better situation in '62 fighting a enemy with low morale, low supplies (which ever reason you like), and a airforce with a small amount of offensive ablility. That means the indina airforce was not able to drop much weapons on the PLA troops
Sure the indian airforce could have had some affect on a advance, maybe a few days difference. But in no way could the indian airforce have won the war or had given effective ground support. With aircraft at least two generations ahead of anything in '62 the indian airforce was still unable to give support to ground troops. The question comes again. If the indian airforce was unable to give effective ground bombardment on a fixed enemy. How well is it going to be against a enemy moving on small tracks which is moving.
The past conflicts have taught the PLA how to avoid air cover. The vietnamese which were PLA inspired also showed how ineffective airpower was againest a moving attacking force
It would seem like it. If the PLA withdrew without a lost in battle nor looked like losing another battle and claimed all the land which was claimed, which way would the cards have been turning?